Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: redginger on July 09, 2007, 11:55:55 AM
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Hi Redginger,
Boy that's a question I've struggled with all my life!
I think it might be a little of both. I know my NMother is intelligent, but she only responds with sympathy to HER hurts & disappointments. Or a strangers. For instance, she'll comment on a story on the news about how bad child abuse is, but she treats her own family members coldly.
I think in the abstact, she knows it's wrong to hurt children, but when given the opportunity to be good to HER children, she can't!
My husband always says she really doesn't think she did anything wrong.
She believes our memories of the horrendous abuse are lies. Even when other strangers have pointed it out. I'm not even sure if confronted with VIDEO EVIDENCE of her abuse would make her believe it. I think she would say it wasn't HER, or that it was set up & we all were conspiring to "Get" her.
So, Red, I'm not sure. This is a great topic, I can't wait to hear from others on this board.
Take care, Bigalspal
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I think it's individual. I had an N boss who was very deliberate and vocal in how she went about getting other people "in trouble". She had/has very specific ways she goes about getting others to look bad. She also was relentless in getting others to be fired from their jobs or would harass them until they quit. With those, she would pretend she had nothing to do with it as far as outsiders could see, but we in the office knew what she did as she didn't hide her actions from us. Showed off about it actually.
Another N I have dealt with would pretend to me he wasn't doing what he was doing. But the patterns were pretty unmistakable and so I think he did things purposely and merely justified his actions to himself or was having fun with the crazy-making. I think he couldn't resist the power it gave him. And it was an outlet for his anger. It was the same thing over and over again. He counted on short memories or his charm to help him get away with things. I believe he thinks he has to do cruel things to people. He has convinced himself it is okay and that if there is a problem it is the other person's fault. He does worry about going to hell. I think that's how he justifies his interest in porn--"Imagination is all I have" he says about that. So, it's not real cheating, and neither is messing with other women emotionally, and therefore is not a sin.
I know another N-type person who has that same worry about maybe going to hell. So, he is heavily involved in his church and plans to increase his involvement after he retires. I believe that in his opinion it makes up for anything "bad" that he does or thinks. Rather than try and change his motivations, behaviors, etc. he makes up for it by increased religious behaviors. Sort of like a Christmas Club bank account. Only he is deducting time and effort from each week and depositing it into his "Getting into Heaven" account.
They are a pretty creative bunch if you think about it. But all that creativity seems to be in support of keeping a status quo that really only benefits them and their limited, self-centered, bizarre preoccupations.
Pennyplant
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I think they can't change because they don't want to. It would not be in their best interests.
PP
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Hi, Redginger,
Do you think that they actively, consciously try to hurt their loved one/ones?
I think it's a mistake to generalize, but yes - some N's do appear to actively, consciously seek to inflict first harm.
Do you think they like to hurt people on purpose, I mean really know what they're doing?
From my experience, the sadistic ones do enjoy hurting people on purpose, especially when they've been crossed, defied, or otherwise countered.
I may be wrong, but isn't there something mentally wrong, somewhere, that makes them like that?/quote]
Here's where it gets sticky... which came first, the mental collapse or the lashing out? I don't know, but I tend to think that at some point, the N's perspective became - "it's me or them" - and chose "me". Paranoia is certainly an integral part of N'ism as I've witnessed it, but I don't think the initial problem is one of mental illness as much as wickedness.
I've heard they can't change because they don't realize what their doing, not really. And that's why therapy can't help an N. I'm new to this, so I don't know what the true answer is to dealing with them, it's very confusing to me and would like to know what you all think.
In my dealings with N, I saw enough lucidity at moments to believe that he could have changed if he'd wanted to. He simply didn't want to.
Those are just my opinions of it... and I have known extremely narcissistic folks who do not actively seek to harm others, so there's definitely a graduated scale of N'ism, imo. Hope this helps.
PS to bigalspal... I read your post as I previewed my own. My mother never committed any horrendous acts of abuse, but she is quite cold and aloof. Your use of the word "abstract" helped me to see that her emotions are all in the abstract - exactly! This is a silly example, but - she has this little ceramic rabbit on her deck and she'll gush on and on about how much she adores looking at this little bunny. But we've always kept rabbits in my own family and she's never expressed a speck of interest in those darlings... never wanted to touch or pet one... never fed one a carrot. I guess she can give her sympathy and "love" to objects because they're not so needy as the real thing. Thanks for your comment!
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You are welcome CH!
PP, that was sooo funny about the "Christmas Club bank account"! :lol: :lol:
I thought that was great. It really is true that they think they can "store up" nice actions against mean ones.
But it's so fake! And we see it, but they don't.
If they only knew that we, & the world, see all the lies & manipulations the N's build, they would be sick to realize we are "ON" to them!
Oh wait, no they won't because it's against an N's nature to think they are flawed.
NEVERMIND! :lol:
Bigalspal
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Do you think that they actively, consciously try to hurt their loved one/ones? Do you think they like to hurt people on purpose, I mean really know what they're doing? I may be wrong, but isn't there something mentally wrong, somewhere, that makes them like that?
My father, who I've described as borderline autistic with N tendencies, seems to sometimes realize that the way he relates to people doesn't work (i.e. doesn't bring him the results he wants). But it doesn't change the way he behaves. It's like he's missing the part of the brain which would let him feel real empathy for others. So he isn't necessarily consciously trying to hurt others, he just doesn't know how NOT to. I've also noticed its very mood dependent. It's as if he becomes a totally different person day to day, or even minute to minute with no continuity between personalities. So one day he may be very apologetic for his behavior, and the next day he's back to his destructive self.
I've decided that regardless of his intent, it's in my best interests to keep my distance.
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Redginger,
Here is a fascinating web page about n-ism (and how to counter): (http://groups.msn.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/20traitsofmalignantnarcissism.msnw)
1. THE PATHOLOGICAL LIAR is skillfully deceptive and very convincing. Avoids accountability by diverting topics, dodging questions, and making up new lies, bluffs or threats when questioned. His memory is self serving as he denies past statements. Constant chaos and diverting from reality is their chosen environment.
Defense Strategy: Verify his words. Do not reveal anything about yourself - he'll use it against you. Head for the door when things don't add up. Don't ask him questions - you'll only be inviting more lies.
2. THE CONTRACT BREAKER agrees to anything then turns around and does the opposite. Marriage, Legal, Custody agreements, normal social/personal protocol are meaningless. This con artist will accuse you of being the contract breaker. Enjoys orchestrating legal action and playing the role of the 'poor me' victim.
Defense Strategy: Expect him to disregard any agreement. Have Plan B in place. Protect yourself financially and emotionally.
3. THE HIGH ROLLER Successfully plows and backstabs his way to the top. His family a disposable prop in his success facade. Is charismatic, eloquent and intelligent in his field, but often fakes abilities and credentials. Needs to have iron-fisted control, relying on his manipulation skills. Will ruthlessly support, exploit or target others in pursuit of his ever-changing agenda. Mercilessly abuses the power of his position. Uses treachery or terrorism to rule or govern. Potential problem or failure situations are delegated to others. A vindictive bully in the office with no social or personal conscience. Often suspicious and paranoid. Others may support him to further their own Mephistophelian objectives, but this wheeler-dealer leaves them holding the bag. Disappears quickly when consequences loom.
Defense Strategy: Keep your references and resume up to date. Don't get involved in anything illegal. Document thoroughly to protect yourself. Thwarting them may backlash with a cascade of retaliation. Be on the lookout and spot them running for office and vote them out. Educate yourself about corporate bullies
4. THE SEXUAL NARCISSIST is often hypersexual (male or female). Pornography, masturbation, incest are reported by his targets. Anything, anyone, young, old, male/female, are there for his gratification. This predator takes what is available. Can have a preference for 'sado-maso' sexuality. Often easily bored, he demands increasingly deviant stimulation. However, another behaviour exists, the one who withholds sex or emotional support.
Defense Strategy: Expect this type to try to degrade you. Get away from him. Expect him to tell lies about your sexuality to evade exposure of his own.
5. THE BLAME-GAME NARCISSIST never accepts responsibility. Blames others for his failures and circumstances. A master at projection.
Defense Strategy: Learn about projection. Don't take the bait when he blames you. He made the mess let him clean it up.
6. THE VIOLENT NARCISSIST is a wife-Beater, Murderer, Serial Killer, Stalker, Terrorist. Has a 'chip-on-his-shoulder' attitude. He lashes out and destroys or uses others (particularly women and children) as scapegoats for his aggression or revenge. He has poor impulse control. Fearless and guiltless, he shows bad judgement. He anticipates betrayal, humiliation or punishment, imagines rejection and will reject first to 'get it over with'. He will harass and push to make you pay attention to him and get a reaction. He will try to make you look out of control. Can become dangerous and unpredictable. Has no remorse or regard for the rights of others.
Defense Strategy: Don't antagonize or tip your hand you're leaving. Ask for help from the police and shelters.
7. THE CONTROLLER/MANIPULATOR pits people against each other. Keeps his allies and targets separated. Is verbally skillful at twisting words and actions. Is charismatic and usually gets his way. Often undermines our support network and discourages us from seeing our family and friends. Money is often his objective. Other people's money is even better. He is ruthless, demanding and cruel. This control-freak bully wants you pregnant, isolated and financially dependent on him. Appears pitiful, confused and in need of help. We rush in to help him with our finances, assets, and talents. We may be used as his proxy interacting with others on his behalf as he sets us up to take the fall or enjoys the performance he is directing.
Defense Strategy: Know the 'nature of the beast'. Facing his failure and consequences will be his best lesson. Be suspicious of his motives, and avoid involvement. Don't bail him out.
8. THE SUBSTANCE ABUSER Alcohol, drugs, you name it, this N does it. We see his over-indulgence in food, exercise or sex and his need for instant gratification. Will want you to do likewise.
Defense Strategy: Don't sink to his level. Say No.
9. OUR "SOUL MATE" is cunning and knows who to select and who to avoid. He will come on strong, sweep us off our feet. He seems to have the same values, interests, goals, philosophies, tastes, habits. He admires our intellect, ambition, honesty and sincerity. He wants to marry us quickly. He fakes integrity, appears helpful, comforting, generous in his 'idealization' of us phase. It never lasts. Eventually Jekyll turns into Hyde. His discarded victims suffer emotional and financial devastation. He will very much enjoy the double-dipping attention he gets by cheating. We end the relationship and salvage what we can, or we are discarded quickly as he attaches to a "new perfect soul mate". He is an opportunistic parasite. Our "Knight in Shining Armor" has become our nightmare. Our healing is lengthy.
Defense Strategy: Seek therapy. Learn about this disorder. Know the red flags of their behaviour, and "If he seems too good to be true..." Hide the hurt you feel. Never let him see it. Be watchful for the internet predator.
10. THE QUIET NARCISSIST is socially withdrawn, often dirty, unkempt. Odd thinking is observed. Used as a disguise to appear pitiful to obtain whatever he can,
11. THE SADIST is now the fully-unmasked malignant narcissist. His objective is watching us dangle as he inflicts emotional, financial, physical and verbal cruelty. His enjoyment is all too obvious. He'll be back for more. His pleasure is in getting away with taking other people's assets. His target: women, children, the elderly, anyone vulnerabie.
Defense Strategy: Accept the Jekyll/Hyde reality. Make a "No Contact' rule. Avoid him altogether. End any avenue of vulnerability. Don't allow thoughts of his past 'good guy' image to lessen the reality of his disorder.
12. THE RAGER flies off the handle for little or no provocation. Has a severely disproportionate overreaction. Childish tantrums. His rage can be intimidating. He wants control, attention and compliance. In our hurt and confusion we struggle to make things right. Any reaction is his payoff. He seeks both good or bad attention. Even our fear, crying, yelling, screaming, name calling, hatred are his objectives. If he can get attention by cruelty he will do so.
Defense Strategy: Manage your responses. Be fully independent. Don't take the bait of his verbal abuse. Expect emotional hurt. Volence is possible.
13. THE BRAINWASHER is very charismatic. He is able to manipulate others to obtain status, control, compliance, money, attention. Often found in religion and politics. He masterfully targets the naive, vulnerable, uneducated or mentally weak.
Defense Strategy. Learn about brainwashing techniques. Listen to your gut instinct. Avoid them.
14. THE RISK-TAKING THRILL-SEEKER never learns from his past follies and bad judgment. Poor impulse control is a hallmark.
Defense Strategy: Don't get involved. Use your own good judgement. Say No.
15. THE PARANOID NARCISSIST is suspicious of everything usually for no reason. Terrified of exposure and may be dangerous if threatened. Suddenly ends relationships if he anticipates exposure or abandonment.
Defense Strategy: Give him no reason to be suspicious of you. Let some things slide. Protect yourself if you anticipate violence.
16. THE IMAGE MAKER will flaunt his 'toys', his children, his wife, his credentials and accomplishments. Admiration, attention, even glances from others, our envy or our fear are his objective. He is never satisfied. We see his arrogance and haughty strut as he demands center stage. He will alter his mask at will to appear pitiful, inept, solicitous, concerned, or haughty and superior. Appears the the perfect father, husband, friend - to those outside his home.
Defense Strategy: Ignore his childlike behaviours. Know his payoff is getting attention, deceiving or abusing others. Provide him with 'supply' to avert problems.
17. THE EMOTIONAL VACUUM is the cruellest blow of all. We learn his lack of empathy. He has deceived us by his cunning ability to mimic human emotions. We are left numbed by the realization. It is incomprehensible and painful. We now remember times we saw his cold vacant eyes and when he showed odd reactions. Those closest to him become objectified and expendable.
Defense Strategy: Face the reality. They can deceive trained professionals.
18. THE SAINTLY NARCISSIST proclaims high moral standing. Accuses others of immorality. "Hang 'em high" he says about the murderer on the 6:00 news. This hypocrite lies, cheats, schemes, corrupts, abuses, deceives, controls, manipulates and torments while portraying himself of high morals.
Defense Strategy: Learn the red flags of behaviour. Be suspicious of people claiming high morals. Can be spotted at a church near you.
19. THE CALLING-CARD NARCISSIST forewarns his targets. Early in the relationship he may 'slip up' revealing his nature saying "You need to protect yourself around me" or "Watch out, you never know what I'm up to." We laugh along with him and misinterpret his words. Years later, coping with the devastation left behind, his victims recall the chilling warning.
Defense Strategy: Know the red flags and be suspicious of the intentions of others.
20. THE PENITENT NARCISSIST says "I've behaved horribly, I'll change, I love you, I'll go for therapy." Appears to 'come clean' admitting past abuse and asking forgiveness. Claims we are at fault and need to change too. The sincerity of his words and actions appear convincing. We learn his words are verbal hooks. He knows our vulnerabilities and what buttons to push. We question our judgement about his disorder. We can disregard "Fool me once..." We hope for change and minimize past abuse. With a successful retargeting attempt, this N will enjoy his second reign of terror even more if we allow him back in our lives.
Defense Strategy: Expect this. Self-impose a "No Contact" rule. Focus on the reality of his disorder. Journal past abusive behavior to remind yourself. Join a support group
Dandylife
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Dandylife,
VERY good article!
Thanks, friend.
Bigalspal
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RG,
She's not a liar......
That makes me doubt pretty seriously that she has NPD or is even strongly narcissistic.
Ns lie when they get up in the morning, when they go to bed at night and at every opportunity in between. I suspect they spend most of the night lying to people in their dreams. They build a false facade to project to the world and to protect their unbelievably fragile ego. They believe any lie is justified in protecting that facade.
Maybe your daughter suffered some type of psychic injury that manifests as selfishnes. I wouldn't be too quick to label her an N, especially in light of your quote above.
I do believe real Ns purposely harm others all the time. Whether they can help it or not is kind of irrelevant if you happen to be their target, but I think the fact that they can instantly turn it off when an authority figure appears is a pretty good clue as to how helpless they are.
mud
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Redginger,
Maybe I missed it if you said the age of your daughter. Alot of times adolescence can masquerade as n-ism. My 17 year old daughter seems like a flaming n. But I think (hope) alot of that will fade with time and maturity.
Dandylife
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Redginger,
Maybe I missed it if you said the age of your daughter. Alot of times adolescence can masquerade as n-ism. My 17 year old daughter seems like a flaming n. But I think (hope) alot of that will fade with time and maturity.
Dandylife
DL, she's 38.
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hi red
I believe that too much exposure to an N can alter a person's personality, if that person is suggestible in any way.
Izzy
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I'm really sorry for your situation, Izzy. Sending hugs your way.
Since my daughter, as far as I know, isn't a liar, that makes her a non N so there's point for my being on this forum. I wish you all well and hope you find happiness in yours lives again.
Red
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There are 2 things I have to share...not sure if ya'll remember me telling you that X was into very icky movies, psycho thriller type ones. Well, the one movie was called TAKING LIVES, and it was about a guy who sliced and diced people, hid their body parts in a house and then stalked and tried to kill "Angelina Jolie's" character toward the end of it. It so terrified me I hid my face in the chair and X giggled and said "ha! you're really THAT scared? ha!" DID SHE KNOW WHAT SHE WAS DOING? HECK YEAH and she was ENJOYING every minute of watching me squirm...until...the GUILT hit her right before I was heading home. She suddenly realized "I just treated someone I considered my best friend, like my "toy" or a despised animal."
At one time, after I discovered Vaknin's N site, I began reading books on N'istic relationships between mother/daughter. When I asked X about this, she was able to tell me how bad it was for a child to be raised only to be a CLONE of it's mother...YET SHE COULD NOT REALIZE THAT I WAS INSINUATING THAT IT WAS HER I WAS REFERRING TO. She could see the "truth" from the book, of how damaging it is to a child to raise them narcissistically, but she could not see that she was doing that very thing with her own children as well as having treated ME that way.
I see that a lot even in my husband. He can see things as wrong in other people, yet cannot see that he IS those other people too.
VERY DISTURBING INDEED!
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Hey Red,
I read your post earlier, and didn’t have a chance to reply in depth earlier. I am sure you have probably seen this, but just in case, the link below shows the definition of an N according to DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition)
http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/narcissisticpd.htm (http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/narcissisticpd.htm) (On edit - had the wrong link here, this is the correct one)
Personally I believe, that like most disorders, N’ism ranges from mild to severe. It doesn’t seem to me to be an all or nothing thing. At the mild end, you might call it N’tendencies (or “rip your hair out frustrating, but generally severe selfishness that isn’t too harmful”); at the other end it would blend into psychopathic/antisocial behavior (with horrific actions perpetrated against other people).
If she does have N’ism, it seems to me that she is more towards the mild end of the continuum. I think this is a good thing, because with a mild N, if you want to maintain a relationship, it may be possible (although not easy), to contain some of the behavior with some firm boundaries. If she doesn’t have N’ism, she, IMO, is still behaving inappropriately in a time of extreme grief. It may be that grief is driving it, but there are more appropriate ways for her to express it, and at 38 years of age, I would not hesitate to tell her, in a firm, but loving manner.
Again, this is just my opinion. We talk a lot about NC here, but if it were my daughter, I would not give up on her. Do you think enforcing some firm, but loving, boundaries on what is and isn’t acceptable behavior would work?
For example, I have a daughter, who every once in awhile will yell at me. Typically, she is frustrated with a friend or her little sister – but I become the target. I don’t get hooked in (most of the time), and I calmly tell her that I am more than willing to discuss it with her in a positive way, and that when she can calm down enough to speak with me in a calm, nice tone of voice, I will discuss it with her. Usually takes the wind right out of her sails, however, sometimes there is a bit of a pout. I just calmly wait it out.
I have found that the really important thing is to keep it as unemotional as possible. If I react emotionally, good or bad, she either flares up, or she will jump on it and use it against me. (Typical behavior for kids and Ns). In my own personal experience (my Dad was pretty bad), I found that reacting emotionally was like bleeding in a tank with a hungry great white shark – they sense the blood (emotion) and go in for the kill. (Although again, he was pretty bad – I don’t think your D is as bad as he was).
Now my daughter is under 10, not 38. I think there may be a couple of risks to setting boundaries with your daughter. She may walk away and take your grandson with her. Her behavior may escalate, in which case you may have to build a stone wall for a time instead of a line in the sand, but it might work.
Dandylife – if I recall, your H is N and you decided to stay with him? Do boundaries work?
Not sure if this is helpful, but it might give you a breather for a time. You definitely deserve some peace, especially right now. I am not a trained professional. If you think this might help, check this with your T first.
Fighting an N is an uphill battle, with no guarantee of success. In my opinion, given everything you are going through right now, I think it is a battle that would be good to take on another day. Maybe a year from now, when you are on more stable footing, you may be able to encourage your daughter to seek joint counseling with you. Phrase it in a such a way that it is in the hopes of learning to speak each other’s language, and to forge a new and better relationship with her. (Don’t phrase it as though there is anything wrong with her or you – just a little old anger there on my part - my parents sent me to T to get me “fixed” since I was so difficult. Have to say it was the best thing they ever did for me!)
Peace
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Finding Peace & Redginger,
I have had a stormy N relationship with my H, yes. He is Borderline (NPD) with N tendencies. This means that he is terrifed of abandonment and sees it (or used to, before therapy - check that - probably still does, but has learned to control his reactions better) in everything from a trip to the grocery store to me wearing a shirt that he feels is far too low cut. He is "histrionic" in his emotions to the point of looking like Chicken Little and the Boy Who Cried Wolf wrapped into one. He exaggerates (lies) so that I don't know when to believe him. This affects my ability to empathize with him/give him attention that he so craves. He is a superstar in his field and so in business gets the adoration he craves. His most saving grace is his great love for our son, and he usually does a great job of keeping is BPD/N in check around him.
Boundaries work great - I find that as long as I'm certain of what I want and can express it in a non-emotional way he will honor it. I think boundaries are key for our relationship sustaining.
I think our own strong reactions to N behavior are the things that make it so hard to sustain relationship with them. If we can mute our own responses and hang in there with some patience, we can have a positive effect on N's - especially when they are our sons and daughters.
Dandylife
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OOps clarifying he is Borderline (BPD) with N tendencies.
dandylife
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Redginger,
By the way - this forum is based around the concept of "voicelessness", feeling unheard. There are alot of ways we feel unheard but N-istic people seem to take the cake in making others feel that way. Just because your daughter is not an N does not mean you don't fit here or won't be welcome. To the contrary. You have added alot of value in your short time here. Thank you for sharing all that you have so far. I hope you decide to stay.
Dandylife