Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on July 12, 2007, 11:43:07 AM
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One of my daughters has memories of... just a little thing...?
Please forgive me for taking the long way around this story, but it all fits together in some way, I'm sure.
Yesterday she recalled to me the period of time when we lived near my
parents' home...
and during this time, her recollection is that she was sick "alot".
Well, I'm thinking that she remembers things this way because when she
would fall ill, it was nearly always on a holiday or special occasion.. or now, as I'm realizing,
during some trying time (and there were plenty).
Her first birthday - she and her older sisters had chickenpox; a couple
Christmases, some virus or ear infection along with a fever; but nothing really
major or chronic... or so I thought.
But then she recalls that I went to this other town "alot" (the nearest real town
from there was 45 minutes in good weather, so traveling there was a major
ordeal, at least in wintertime). And I'm thinking.... alot?
I never went anywhere "alot", especially alone, without all of my children along for the ride.
I was living alone there with my 4 children, separated from my husband because he'd molested at least one of them.
And yet this is how she recalls it.
So now I'm wondering if this may have been during the period of time when I
was attempting joint counseling sessions with my ex-husband (her dad) with regard to
his issues of sexual abuse. That was a monthly visit for about half a year, out
of town, until I finally threw in the towel. Ex lived 200 miles away, but had to travel back toward the scene of his crimes
for court ordered counseling. My participation at my discretion (theoretically) and I went along because this counselor he had was so convinced that my ex was just "a good man who'd done some bad things". Hogwash.
And with all that, I'm thinking -
sheesh, no wonder my little girl was sick at these times.
Although she was not the one directly abused by him, he certainly contaminated our whole family with his perversions.
But that's another story.
So - the rest of us would take off, as she recalls, and she would be left with
her Grandma, my mother. (Now this was a rare event indeed, in my
memory. My mother is not one to want the kids around much. In fact, while
we lived just a few miles away, my Dad tried a few times to pick one or more
of them up and take them home with him to "her" house, but it was simply not worth
the struggle to him. She would be very angry and demonstrate that anger by
giving everyone the cold shoulder. Her plans/schedule/ways of doing things
are NOT to be disturbed.
So daughter's recollections must be of the times of these counseling visits,
when I was being encouraged to allow my kids' dad to have restored contact
with them (no way). And now I see what I couldn't see at the time -
there was my little girl reacting to all of these circumstances by feeling sick - nauseous.
Left at her Grandma's house (which in and of itself may be enough to cause nausea)
to be "cared for"... and she feels like she's going to throw up. Often... sounds like every time!
And what does my mother do?
She makes her little granddaughter lie down on the bathroom floor at the open toilet -
for the entire day.
That floor is rock hard, ice cold, ceramic tile.
At least she gave her a towel to lie on, eh?
Wouldn't want her precious floors or furniture to get soiled.
I told my daughter how sorry I am for ever leaving her there. And I thanked
her for telling me. And I'd like to tell my mother a few things, but I'll have to let
God work my heart over before I'd best open my mouth.
Mostly I'm just thankful that my daughter found her grandmother's behaviour
odd... that she doesn't consider it "normal" to care about your stuff more than
about the people you're supposed to love.
Took me years to recognize just how wacked this outlook is.
And also, I now understand why - in a lifetime - I've only vomited on a few
occasions... mostly when drunk.
It's simply not acceptable.
Too messy.
Hold it in.
Phooey.
Thanks for listening.
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WOW --- That must have been very, very hard to write. Thank you for sharing that deep pain
I think that the greatest gift you can give to your kids is honesty. They won't have to get distorted and suffer like we did if someone will confirm their reality. It sounds like you are honest with your children. You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free" is a promise. So,it will always work(IMO).
Whatever the pains of her childhood, you can help her heal them ,now, with 'truth". I sure wish that ONE person in my life would have been honest with me.
About your mother,she sounds like she was very self absorbed . Her "caring for things above a sick child sound like an N. It shows that she did not have "normal" empathy.
Did you see this before about her or is it "new". Did you just see it more deeply?
.I am sorry that you are going through this pain. It will help your daughter to let her talk about it and just go over it until she doesn't need to anymore(IMO).
You sound like you broke the N cycle with your kids. I did too. I was messed up ,but I always tried to make my actions match my feelings so they would not have to lie about what they saw with their own two eyes. That was the single most awful thing that I went through. Your eyes,emotions and body are telling you one thing .Your parents are telling you that it is not "there.'
Love Ami
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Hi CH,
What an interesting post!
I am very interestd in memories and am quite sure that many of us can remember an incident, but recount it in different ways. This goes along with how we can all have a different perception of something, while looking at the same thing.
I gather your mother is an N?
In my quest to straighten things out with my daughter, I noticed her memories from when very little vary somewhat from mine. Now in her adult state she still has her own memories and that puts a different spinn on the actual happening. This also makes me question MY memories as a young child, as to the exact truth of the situation (for my quest in straightening out myself). This then becomes somewhat of a problem if lives must go to Therapy.
I gather those who grew up happy and joyful have no need to look back and dissect the past.
xx
Izzy
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That's a tragedy, Hope, I'm so sorry.
Thank heaven you're free of him, and you've arrested the harm.
I was thinking that for me, as a child, once a month if there was a lot of tension in the air, would've felt like "a lot".
Not that you could help that.
Do we ever free ourselves from blame when our children hurt?
It's wonderful that you and your daughter are so close that you talk about it, see things through.
Ami, I know what you mean. There's a big difference between a parent saying to you, "I'm surprised you remember it that way. It seemed this way to me" and telling you, "You didn't experience your life correctly."
Izz, I think the happy ones revisit childhood all the time for the joy of reliving it. How 'bout that. :shock:
Hops
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Izz, I think the happy ones revisit childhood all the time for the joy of reliving it. How 'bout that.
Hops
yes Hops, for the joy of reliving it --for happiness...... not to dissect it to understand its meaning--re unhappiness.
Izzy
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Hello again,
I'm interested in the responses to this post because still, to this day, I often question what is "normal" and what is not.
And I thank you... those of you who've offered your perspectives and thoughts... because you've also offered me an opportunity to ask myself some more questions.
Ami, Thank you for your empathy. I think that the deep pain must be in the past.... contained in the not knowing and not being able to express what I couldn't identify. At least I don't feel that pain now... and so I'm guessing it was probably dispursed in the anger which I expressed (not to them directly) about my parents some years ago.
It seems that I've tended to exhaust my emotions before ever becoming acquainted enough with them to identify them individually.
Not a method I'd recommend, but that's how it was for me. And at this point, I feel strong enough to choose not to feel the pain again, in a different form. Maybe I could stir it all back up and try to process it more correctly, somehow... but I think that'd just keep me stuck in my mother's loop? Seems so to me. And really, I've accepted her for what she is. There was a season when I wanted to blame her for what I'd become... and for all the ways in which her influence and training made me susceptible to the really big N of my life... but what a waste of time at this point. No, I'm afraid that the only reason I'd have at this point to say a few words to her about this, would be to hurt her... to shake her up, at least... and why? Because maybe then she'd "change"? She's 80 years old and has no direct impact on my family any more... so I guess my sympathy for her can afford to outweigh all the rest. I don't know.
This is nothing new... as you suggested, I just saw it more deeply - in living color - with someone else in the picture frame besides me.
What really impressed me is the matter-of-fact way in which my daughter recounted her memory. What brought it back to her mind was our recent visit to her oldest sister, who was hospitalized for an intestinal rupture (she's fine now). We were all there together, me sitting on the bed with my oldest daughter, visiting... and she recalled these times when she'd been ill - and how she'd been treated. No doubt the comparison startled her and helped her to connect some dots. Me, too.
And Ami, you said:
" I always tried to make my actions match my feelings so they would not have to lie about what they saw with their own two eyes. That was the single most awful thing that I went through. Your eyes,emotions and body are telling you one thing .Your parents are telling you that it is not "there.' "
Yes, exactly. Me, too! Thank you for putting this into just the right words for my spirit to absorb. That's it... my goal then, now, and always... the heck with appearances - let's deal with what's really there in front of our noses!
Hi Izzy,
I definitely agree with you about the effects of individual perceptions on memories. As someone who seems to have spent a lifetime replacing memories with emotional trends (like mindsets, only in the realm of feelings), I don't have many concrete memories... just a sense of having going through the motions. Quite often still, I feel like that old fairy-tale character... newly awakened after many years of napping... or an amnesiac, unsure of where I've been... and even who I've been... and only now discovering who I actually may be.
No, I don't think my mother is NPD. She's not a pathological liar, but she does exhibit most of the other signs of N'ism.
I've talked with my 4 children quite alot about their individual memories of various phases of our family life. Each one tells a different story... which is natural, I suppose, since each one has a unique personality and perspective. We've all gained alot of insight by comparing notes in this way... and I think it's a wonderful method of drawing folks together, as long as nobody takes offense. As their mom, I've had one - for instance - recall a time when I "yelled" at her. Well, I've never been a yeller, so this didn't compute... but another daughter would say, "now Mom, it was your tone..." and then we were all able to work toward understanding. It hasn't always been this way, but we've all grown up a great deal :)
As for dissecting the past... I am certain that my mother didn't grow up happy and joyful, but that's the last thing she'd be willing to do.
Sometimes I wish she'd been willing... mighta changed alot in all of our lives. But she always said how awful she thought it was for people to go dredging back through their past to fix blame on their families. I think she was speaking for herself... that there were things in her upbringing that she realized had affected her so negatively... but she just couldn't bring herself to delve into those things. She had a sister who did dissect... and she was miserable, too... so no doubt that was a great influence on my mother.
But everyone's different. Personally, I am happy when someone in my family chooses to share some reflection from the past... bad or good. It's tough when it reflects poorly on me, but I'd rather have a chance to see it through their eyes than be stuck in my own perspective for a lifetime. My mother doesn't want anyone else's perspective... and that's her loss, imo.
Hi, Hops
Thank you for your sympathy. It's an old tragedy and one which sadly was proceeded by another tragedy - my brief marriage to Big N.
My method of arresting the harm was to fall into the arms of another lunatic, so I surely am not responsible for many good decisions in my life... other than my choice to report my kids' dad when my oldest daughter told me of his molestation.
I think you're right about the once per month seeming like "alot" to a child. I just don't remember being aware that she was sick during those times. It bothers me that I was so consumed with all this tragedy that her little illness was left on my mother's cold floor, you know?
I don't think that I'm to blame, but it does give me great determination to avoid getting caught up in any more whirlwinds which distract from what's really needful.
Thanks for the compliment about my relationship with my daughter... she's a neat girl, for a brainiac :)
My girls are 25, 20, and 16 now.
My son is 11. The relationships continue changing... 1 for the worse and 3 for the better, at this point. May I be so cavalier as to say,
"Ya can't win 'em all?" Okay, I'll follow that up quickly with, "This too shall pass." Mostly I have tried to learn to say what I really think and then detach from the outcome (whether or not they'll take heed)... at least with the "adult" ones.
And finally... maybe my view is far too pessimistic, but I've noticed something about folks who seem to revisit childhood regularly for the joy of reliving it...
1) there's alot of denial goin on
or
2) they are toys r us kids
Whew, feels like I've written a book here. Thanks again to you all... it's helped to talk this through.
Hope
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Hi CH,
My daughter is starting to remember alot of things, too. Not about her DAD abusing her, but my Nmother! I don't doubt it. She is like the grandma in your story. Cold, mean & selfish!
As you might have read in an earlier post of mine, my OTHER daughter has a chronic disease, & she brought her home to me one day. This was a 5 hr trip & my poor daughter had to be sick on the side of the road. My NMother (her grandmother) turned to her in the back seat & SLAPPED HER FOR NEEDEDING TO STOP!!! Oh, CS, when I found that out I had to be restrained! I was gonna HURT her!
When the daughter (who is doing the remembering) hears that she's called me,she tells ME to tell HER to "BURN IN HELL! Some grandma.
My NMOther's grandma was so sweet & nice that my daughters always thought of HER as their grandma. My NMother was always "napping". They had to be quiet! And, heaven forbid, they touched any of her stuff! Both my girls are in their 20's & to this day she NEVER asks about them. Of course, they never ask about HER either.
So, CS, I know what you are going through! I'm soooo sorry!
Love,
Bigalspal
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Hi again, CH
I meant to say that my NMother's MOTHER not grandma was the one my girls consider "Grandma".
I just get so mad that I get to typing so fast & make mistakes. I think I even called you CS instead of CH. I'm sorry! The emotion is still so raw!
Love,
Bigalspal
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Hi Bigalspal,
I'm sorry that your girls have such bad memories to recall... and yet I think it's such a healthy thing to recognize what is good, loving behavior and what is not. Better to remember it now than to keep it stuffed away where its effects go on undetected.
Because my mother was not a screamer or slapper (or demonstrative in any way, positive or negative) alot of her nonsense went undetected (by me) for many years. Sometimes I actually wish that she had blown a fuse in a more outright way... at least then alot more of this rubbish might have been out in the open instead of shrouded in "keeping up appearances". I always thought of her as mildly obsessive compulsive and... well... anal, but not abusive. That opinion has changed as more info sinks into my consciousness.
Anyhow, as long as your girls know that they didn't do anything to cause their grandma to react to them that way... that's the important thing, I think. And they had their great-grandma, it sounds like, to fill the traditional "grandma" role... that's how it was for us, too. My mother's mother was much sweeter and kinder to my children and I'm thankful that they got to know her a bit before she passed away.
My mother doesn't seem to want to know anything about her grandchildren except any accomplishments which might be useful to her for recounting. It's helpful to have some little litany to recite, just in case someone asks her how we're all doing, you know? :P
Alll I can say is, she is missing alot by not making time to really get to know them... and so is your mom.
We just recently spent a few days with her and my Dad, when we traveled to their area in conjunction with a trip to see my oldest daughter. Mother was in bed by 7:15 pm each night, according to her custom, and I don't think she exchanged more than 5 words with my kids the entire time. She can't make them sit on her kitchen floor to eat any more... they're too big. So I guess she has even less use for them these days.
At one point, I suggested that she go down and see my son, 11, playing a game on his sister's laptop. Silly me, I thought she might find that kinda neat... or at least be interested to see what he was doing (building a zoo).
A few minutes later I asked my son, "Well, did Grandma like your project that you're making?" He said, "It's hard to tell."
I said, "I understand" and gave him a hug.
Such is life in N'ish-ville.
Good talkin with you, bigalspal :)
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Hi CH,
Good talking to you, too!
I guess we watched too much TV, huh? I bet they would never show our kids grandmothers in a sitcom!
Love,
Bigalspal
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Hi CH, glad you are posting again.
Wow! You sure have lived through a lot! I'm sorry you had to go through all that. It sounds like you've made a lot of peace with the past.
I think I did something similar by going over it all, years ago, and moving forward regardless of it. I'm a bit like your mom, though, because I try not to/don't want to blame much on my FOO (and maybe I should?) because I believe so much is a choice (even when I was a child, I thought I made choices on how to deal with it all and they weren't half bad choices for a little kid! 8)). Anyway, to me, it doesn't much matter who's to blame. I have the power to work on me and decide what to do about it now, and that's the biggest stuff, imo.
so I surely am not responsible for many good decisions in my life... other than
I bet you made a lot more good decisions/choices than you are giving yourself credit for! Some of them may have been small, in comparison to other bigger ones but a whole wack of good small decisions can add up pretty close to a couple of bigger bad ones, maybe? Ah.....allow yourself a mathematical break. Didn't you make the most important//biggest choices/decisions.....in the end.....correctly? That tips the good side of the scale!
Anyway, I just wanted to say hello and to agree with what bigalspal said.....that your mother is the real loser, when it comes to missing out on relationships/enjoyment with your wonderful children! She loses the most and doesn't even know it. :shock: Poor her.
Sela
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I think it is this post that brought back memories that are just so wonderful. You must read as they will disappear when I am buried!
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((((((Bigalspal))))) Nope, life at home was definitely not like any sitcom I've ever seen! But my Dad (who, by the way, they used to call "Big Al", wouldya believe it?!) was pretty good at providing comic relief, on occasion.
I guess humor has always been one of his methods of coping with the constant undercurrent of passive aggressive fury which constantly. Actually, I do see some similarity between him (as Oscar) to my mother's portrayal of Felix, from the old "Odd Couple"... lol.
I'm thankful for that part of him which he passed on to me... and yet I do wish he had not let her rule the household as he always has.
Hi, Sela... and thank you for the welcome. When perimenopause isn't doing it's thing, I feel very peaceful, yes :)
There was a time, 7 years ago, when I went over it all, too... and moved forward regardless of it.
At least I thought that I was moving forward at the time.
But in actuality, my forward move was a leap from the frying pan into the flames.
That's when I married N.
You've said: "I'm a bit like your mom, though, because I try not to/don't want to blame much on my FOO (and maybe I should?)
because I believe so much is a choice
(even when I was a child, I thought I made choices on how to deal with it all and they weren't half bad choices for a little kid! )."
I don't think that anyone should blame his condition on another human being.. in most circumstances, that is.
One exception which immediately comes to mind is the deliberate transmission of a deadly disease, with the intent of murder.
In such a case, yes - I can see just cause for blame.
But with my mother, it seems that her line of thought goes as so -
examination of a situation must result in someone being blamed.
It absolutely must be someone's fault.
Therefore she must not examine her own situation, because to admit that there's a problem would force her to face the fact that
a) She does not have total control
b) She just may be responsible for her own mess
She can place others under the microscope until the cows come home, but not herself.
She doesn't seem to have any concept of exploration for the sake of improving, revealing areas which may have a negative impact...or - gulp - changing.
Why change when you're perfect as can be?
So basically, my mother has no difficulty assigning blame to anyone but herself.
She is very proud of her own decisions... now if only the rest of the world would conform to them
She wears each bit of silent suffering as a badge of honor and loves to speak of the deprivation under which she was raised, due to the Great Depression.
Her pride in her own wisdom entitles her to apply her philosophy to others, as well... so that if she witnesses what she deems to be a person's failure (according to her definition of failure)
she attributes that to the individual's poor choice... and she is merciless in her judgement of them.
My mother feels that her success in this life is due to her well practiced methods of control and discriminating choices.
Because she allows no room for the grace of God in her own life, she extends no grace to others.
The way I feel about it... what I've experienced in my life is nothing nearly as sad as this graceless prison in which she's locked herself.
I appreciate your thoughts about tipping that scale, Sela, but the fact is - if I'd been allowed to suffer the consequences of my poor choices,
there's no doubt I'd be in the pit. Even my very best little choices were made for the wrong reasons, which more than cancels them out.
I'm only thankful that I'll not be judged on the basis of all that, because I'd be a goner for sure.
And yes, my mother has lost alot and I feel sorry for her about that, but I know that I don't have the power to change it.
Also I know that I can't hold onto blame against her because - if not for the grace of Christ - I'd be in her shoes right now.
So it's a constant battle, to uncover the old junk and get it out of the way, to make more room for the new.
For me it is not at all about assigning blame, but rather purging it out of the system so's not to be crippled by it all in dealings with my own family.
Nothing was ever discussed in my childhood or well into adulthood, so this place is a blessing, for such times as this :)
(((((((Grandma Izzy)))))) I'm so sorry you were dismissed. Please write more of your wonderful memories whenever you'd like and I'll read!
Hey Beaners :) No, of course you are neither remiss or amiss... I've been awol -not been reading and only very rarely posting.
I had to stop because I ran out of answers. Good thing, too :) During that quiet spell, I realized it's okay to be devoid of answers
as long as ya know the One who's got them all.
So I'm the one who's out of it, so to speak... and yet, somehow, still in it.
Thank you for missing me!! That's so cool! I have missed you, too, and thought of you often.
And thank you for your sympathies.. although there's a part of me yet that rebels against the notion of my children bearing crosses, but
I know what you mean. I figure that awareness and acknowledgement is 9/10s of the battle and so I only pray that the effects will be translated into positive ones through open, honest discussion, authentic love,
and Jesus' healing touch. This I believe will happen. It's happening with me. Sure wish it'd come along faster, but then I've always been a late bloomer.
And thank you for this: "She has a wonderful mommy and she's lucky, though"
Coming from you, that means the world to me.
Good news: I talk regularly now with my eldest. She just turned 25 :) For years, we were out of contact - mainly by my own obstinant choice. Hey, if I couldn't fix 'em, I didn't mess with 'em. But that was the old me.
She was very ill recently and required emergency surgery. Every maternal instinct in me reared it's lovely head and said, You must travel the 2,000 miles to be with her.
So we did. I didn't know I had it in me, Bean.. but there it was, still intact, and the most beautiful surprise I've ever experienced.
I don't have to be able to fix her... or anyone else. Only to love :):)
I'm very glad you're here, Bean.
Love,
Hope
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Hey Hope,
Not much to add except it's great to see you here again.
I missed your wisdom.
BTW my wife found a cure for that perimenopause thing, but it has it's drawbacks. Do chemo for six months and you'll be right into menopause lickity split. :P (We can laugh about it now).
mud
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Hey Hope,
Not much to add except it's great to see you here again.
I missed your wisdom.
BTW my wife found a cure for that perimenopause thing, but it has it's drawbacks. Do chemo for six months and you'll be right into menopause lickity split. :P (We can laugh about it now).
mud
Hey, Mr. Mud... thanks! It's great to see you still in action. And I'm especially glad that you and your wife can laugh together nowadays...
Praise God! :)
Oh, and I hope that your N-dealings have become non-issues at this point!
Hope
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CH,
I think it's great that your daughter wants to open up and share these thoughts with you. I don't think children can differentiate between time all the time, so a big incidence might be equal to "a lot" in some way to her.
(((((((((((((((((((every clear thought leads to freedom))))))))))))))))))))))
Love, Beth
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CH,
I think it's great that your daughter wants to open up and share these thoughts with you. I don't think children can differentiate between time all the time, so a big incidence might be equal to "a lot" in some way to her.
(((((((((((((((((((every clear thought leads to freedom))))))))))))))))))))))
Love, Beth
(((((((((Beth))))))) thanks! I think it's great, too. And you're right about time... shoot, I have trouble differentiating it on occasion. A minute can seem like a year, depending on the situation. It makes sense to me that, at that age, "alot" may speak more to the amount of impact an event had on a child - and maybe how much she dreaded it happening again - than the actual # of incidents. All I know is, what's brought out into the open loses its power to get moldy :) Good to read you!
Love,
Hope
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Thanks for your reply, Hope, for taking the time to explain and for letting bygones be bygones.
I'm sorry for what happened before.....especially for my part in it. I could have tried harder to be patient and to get my own fears under better control. I should have used nicer words and said I was sorry, long before now. I can be a dope sometimes. Sorry for not doing better.
I hope you have mainly.....peaceful days! (you can laugh at me later, when that perimen. thingy hits me!).
I guess what I mean by maybe I should blame more on my FOO is that maybe I've let them off too easily, sometimes, in the past when I tried to be too responsible for everything, thus making the mistake of allowing them to keep behaving toward me in the same destructive manner, without ever making them accountable? I dunno. I allowed it, so I see it as my fault. I agree with you that blaming should be kept to a minimum, for special cases like the one you described where the person was infected with a deadly disease deliberately by another.......I guess especially for criminal behaviour?
Your mother sounds like a piece of work.
She is very proud of her own decisions... now if only the rest of the world would conform to them
I think it's a good idea to give oneself credit for doing the right thing. It's the second part of that sentence that shows how closed minded, controlling and superior she sounds. No wonder you think all of your decisions are bad. How could anyone live up to her requirements? How could anyone be as good as her at making decisions? Ofcourse yours would be inferior!! How silly of you to give yourself credit for the slightest smart move! She would simply crush that idea, I bet?
So it's a constant battle, to uncover the old junk and get it out of the way, to make more room for the new.
I love the way you worded that! It is isn't it? I think it's a process that takes a long time......maybe even a life time? (in my case) Or else...I'm just slow. :roll:
I do think it's important to keep in mind that
"God don't make no junk!"
(I can't remember who said that but it stuck in my head).
So no matter what, it's ok to see what's not wrong with us (usually referred to as having good self-esteem, whatnot). It's something..... I think, a lot of people who come from backgrounds where others have done their best to dominate them.....have to work at. Another lifetime project eh?
she is merciless in her judgement of them
Please have mercy on you.....be kinder to yourself than she must have been?
(((((((Hope))))))))
Sela
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Sela,
You're welcome.
I figure that bygones are bygones, whether I decide to let them be... or not.
So I can't comment on what you should have done in the past... that's not my place. I only know that the past and tomorrow belong exactly where they are, because sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
My own failings are more than enough to keep me occupied on a daily basis.
My Scripture verse of the year, it seems, is "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
As far as I'm concerned, you have nothing for which to apologize to me.
You were where you were, you are where you are, and that is none of my business.
Back then, there was alot of discussion about what constitutes a genuine apology.
At this point, I think that the thing to do is to let that go... not pretending as though there was never a problem, but in full awareness that there will likely be many more problems, each one of which will need to be met with grace, mercy, and firm boundaries.
I'm just thankful to not be so loaded with fear as I was back then.
I have a t-shirt which says, "I don't do drama" :) So in the most undramatic manner possible, I do apologize for my own lack of consistency and directness in the past, and I pledge to practice forthrightness in every post, by the grace of God.
And yes, I do have mainly peaceful days... and I can assure you that I won't be laughing when it's your turn.
About blaming... if it is going to result in punishment, then I think that blaming must be avoided at all cost, when it comes to our families and others, as well (barring criminal behaviour). I don't think that it's my place to let anyone off or keep anyone on the proverbial hook...
in fact, I think that most folks put themselves on or off that hook, based on alot of factors which have nothing to do with me.
(Reference my verse of the year noted above)
Yes, my mother is a piece of work... but then aren't we all, each in our own unique way?
I understand what you've said about giving oneself credit.
I personally do not use that method because of the scorekeeping inherent in that philosophy.
If I choose to give myself credit, then I must also choose to give myself debits.
Knowing that lands me in the red prevents me from doing so... to myself and to others.
It's not that I think all of my decisions are bad.
What I've said is that even my good decisions have been made for the wrong reasons, which more than cancels them out.
"All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." I'm speaking from a spiritual perspective here... because that has become my reality to a far greater extent than whether or not my mother agrees with my decisions.
Some of her disapproval has been quite valid.
Some of her approval (and there's been a speck of that) has been quite invalid.
Her approval or disapproval have become moot in my mind.
If what I choose doesn't line up with God's will in my life, then it doesn't matter who praises or devalues it... it's wrong.
I think you're right that it takes a lifetime to work through this process of rubbish-removal... but that's a blessing, really.
If the Lord revealed to us all of our failings, all at once, who could stand?
Each glimpse of the lack within me gives me an opportunity to lean more heavily on Christ, rather than on myself.
On the flip side, each attempt to see what's not wrong with me presents a choice - do I congratulate myself and put a gold star on my scorecard or do I thank God for Christ in me, the hope of glory?
About self-esteem -
The way I look at it - I've never been commanded to love myself, only to love God first, and then my neighbor as myself.
There's an implied "given" in that directive... that each person naturally loves himself or herself - that self-love is not something which needs to be taught. I believe this.
And I believe that even the sort of self-degradation which I may have placed upon myself when I suffered from what this world terms "low self esteem" was - in itself - a warped form of self love. After all... it focused on self - and where I'm focused is where my heart is - is where my treasure is.
I don't know that I can explain this further, just now, but your expression that I should have mercy on myself and be kinder... well, I appreciate the thought, Sela. But I'm better than okay, thanks :) My route to healing just doesn't follow that path.
Hope
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Hi again Hope,
I'm glad you have your stuff worked out (spiritually and otherwise). It's a llearning process eh? I'm not sure about much at all, when it comes to what scripture means. I rely on God but I keep in mind that He helps those who help themselves, and so again, I take responsibility for my choices (good and bad and if He is keeping score, I guess I'll have to take whatever consequences I am owed....but I just don't think God will do it like that. I think He knows our intentions.....and will take them into account. For me to learn though.....I have to keep score or I'll just keep making the same errors, which I'd like not to do). You know what's best for you, so I that's a good thing.
As far as being consistent and direct, I don't think you have anything to apologize for. As far as my not having anything to apologize for? I think I behaved rudely and impatiently and let my fears rule, so I am sorry for that and will try hard not to let that happen again. I would like to see no problems between us.
I'm glad you don't need to learn to self-love......that you believe it comes naturally. I'm not sure everyone naturally does that or believes that. When people are put down, over and over, especially by those who are supposed to be safe (by their parents during their childhood--even by their spouse).....I think it can have a big effect and sometimes they start to believe what they are being told, and therefore do not self-love much at all. If they manage to escape the situation, it takes awhile to relearn...so to speak, to be kind to themselves etc.
I was lucky, in a way, because I'm so darn stubborn. I would often refuse to "hear" critical putdowns and tell myself, in my head: "That's not true! Don't listen to that!" (if it was particularly nasty stuff coming from my angry parents or my ex). Not always though. Sometimes, it just hurt and sometimes, I believed what I was hearing and felt bad about myself for stuff that really...was not true.
Anyhow, I agree that we are all unique and ya.....it would be tough to process all of our flaws at once (and maybe ....our heads would fill up and explode....if all of our wonderful qualities were revealed to us at once too?? :)).
I think it's important to be kind to ourselves. I can beat myself up better than anyone, sometimes.
Sela
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Sela,
I don't feel that I have my stuff worked out, but I do know that there's been great progress. I'm not so fearful, I have a great desire to interact with people and exchange thoughts, and the little wisps of anger which do still come along are very short-lived.
It's definitely a learning process and, for me, it's been a matter of learning that I can do absolutely nothing apart from Christ.
What I rely upon is the fact that I don't have to keep a handle on all my stuff, because God has it all in His hands.
He has it - to the extent that I put it there, for His keeping.
Please do excuse me if my tone comes across cyberspace as preachy when I speak of these things.. that is really not my intent.
The thing is - Scripture and spiritual matters stir up great passion within me,
because these have been the vehicles, so to speak, of my renewal and the catalysts for so very many changes within me.
Trying to explain further...
I do not understand all of the Bible, but there are enough crystal clear truths that've settled into my spirit to rest assured that God reveals just exactly what His children need to know, at the very moment they require that knowledge, according as they submit themselves to Him.
So I read and study the Bible because I've seen evidence of the truth that faith comes by hearing
and hearing by the Word of God.
Which reminds me -
One of the Scripture websites I've used in study has the Bible available in numerous translations and also provides various study tools.
It even has a page listing oft-quoted verses which are not in the Bible.
The saying: "God helps those who help themselves" is one of those.
Now I don't mention this to declare that your beliefs are wrong, Sela; but only to clarify that - imo - that particular phrase is entirely unScriptural. Over and over in the Bible, what I see are examples of people who knew that they could not save themselves, so they turned to God in utter dependence, and were delivered.
That would be me.
It's not that I expect God to solve all of my problems while I sit back and eat bon bons. It's that I know He is faithful to guide and protect me as I stay close to Him in His word, in prayer, and in obedience to His direction.
I also do not believe that good intentions ever delivered a person.
I have seen many people with good intentions, who've remained lost... including myself, in the past.
In my view, it is calling upon the name of the Lord which results in salvation.
From my own experience, which I believe lines up with the Bible, it was my recognition of how very far short I fall from the perfection of God & how very desperately I need Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Saviour
which brought me to the point of calling on Christ's name.
Re: self-love - I'm thinking that you and I are defining love differently, in this context.
I don't know how to clarify this part just yet, except to say
that if one aspect of "love" might be considered an intense level of interest...
well, I know alot of folks who don't "like", or respect, or seem to value themselves, but they're intensely interested in getting their own desires met.
Again, I was one.
Those desires were improperly focused, that's for sure... nonetheless they were more about "me" than about the "other".
Attempting to get needs met was the driving force behind my pouring myself into another person - and that is self-love, imo.
Self respect is another issue entirely, imo, and must be based on the knowledge that every single human being is created in the image of God.
And "liking" self... well that comes along with getting a firm foundation in identification with Christ and then walking in integrity, fessing up after a stumble, repenting, getting up, and continuing on in His footsteps.
Whew... again, sorry if that came out like sermonizing. I tried to keep it in a level tone, but not having posted much in awhile,
it's hard to know how to phrase things. Thank you for allowing me to make the effort to explain my beliefs.
I do understand what you've expressed about your method of recognizing critical put-downs and rejecting them.
Personally I never had an opportunity to practice that, because the put-downs were generally not verbal.
I guess that's why I place so much value now in trying to learn to express myself... like here, for instance.
I like to hear what other people are thinking and I enjoy running my thoughts past others for feedback.
And I appreciate constructive criticism more and more, because I do struggle to make myself clear and I'd rather keep plugging away at it then allow a misunderstanding to fester. Where I used to react to misunderstandings with exasperation, I can now take them as a more of an adventurous sort of challenge, because God's convinced me that neither my identity nor my value are dependent on someone else's opinion of me.
Besides, one of the more earth-shattering revelations to me throughout this process has been that I cannot reasonably expect to please all of the people, all of the time :)
Funny how I'd thought that was supposed to be my goal. Not any more. That knowledge is what's allowed me to come back here and try again to post and share.
About kindness... I think I agree with you, but maybe in a bit of a different way.
I think it's important that I be kind to others ...and allow God be kind to me.
The more of God's love I receive, the more I have to pass on to others... and I can only benefit in that process.
I think the Bible calls it having the love of God shed abroad in your heart by the Holy Spirit.
Anyhow, sometimes He uses other people to show His kindness to me. Sometimes He uses me to show other people His kindness.
I just like the way He does things!
And I know that I have alot of work to do yet... I think because I've not had many examples of gentleness to model in my life...
but God's been good to send a couple such gentle souls across my path here in 3-D life as well as online... so I'm grateful... and I'm learning.
Thanks for the discussion, Sela!
Hope
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Hi Hope,
It does sound like you have quite a lot figured out and that's good to hear. I am in no way criticizing you. Thankyou for taking the time to explain your beliefs. I'm not going to explain mine except to say that we may have more in common than you might be thinking.
The words from the bible I rely on most often, when it comes to difficulties with people are:
"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"
I pray for help with it (these) and I try to live it (them), although sometimes, it's not so easy....
and
"Love thy enemy"
....which seems like the biggest challenge God gives us.
do excuse me if my tone comes across cyberspace as preachy when I speak of these things.. that is really not my intent.
I believe your explaination of your intent (intention) and it counts.
Please hear my tone as sincere because that's what I feel and am trying to communicate, although I am not the best with words sometimes. Something I've been working on forever.....will I ever learn? :roll:
Thankyou for the discussion too (on edit: from me too, I mean).
Sela
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Thank you, Sela... all is well as far as I'm concerned :)
I am not the best with words either, at times. It seems that the harder I try to be clear, the more fierce and "cold" my language can become. Because I've heard that very thing/intonation/whatever in my own voice when speaking with passion, I've become more aware of that tendancy and would really like to continue working at removing that stinging tone.
What you've said here about loving our enemies and forgiving those who trespass against us - well, I couldn't agree more.
Those two commands have driven me to my knees on many occasions and I don't expect to ever be able to manage them apart from Jesus. I don't know any better way of staying humble than to consider these things daily.
Sela, I really appreciate that you've tried so hard to communicate with me. I know it's not easy... and I hope you know that I'm not trying to be difficult. Ex - N used to say, "Why must you be so contrary??" heh. Once in awhile maybe he got it right... but hey, when dealin with people like ex-N, maybe bein contrary is what keeps a person from joining them in la-la land.
With love,
Hope
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CH:
I am really impressed with the honesty and accountability of this insight
the harder I try to be clear, the more fierce and "cold" my language can become. Because I've heard that very thing/intonation/whatever in my own voice when speaking with passion, I've become more aware of that tendancy and would really like to continue working at removing that stinging tone.
Good for you. I admire it very much when people can go straight to one of their own "fault lines" and say, here this is. This belongs to me, I own it, and I work on it.
For me, that kind of revelation causes instant respect and forgiveness. It's real maturity, imo.
Thank you for sharing it.
Sela, honeybun...you are brave and beautiful and bodaciously honest yourself. Utterly loveable.
thanks bothay'all.
Hops
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Hiya Hope,
I'm sorry, I should have said I had to go away there yesterday. Sorry for keeping you waiting for a reply (which I would be hoping for one, had I written a post like your last one on this thread).
Ha! Re: cold language? I'm from the Great White North!! :mrgreen: I can take the cold!! 8)
(That was very brave of you to say, Hope. No worries. Just glad to get to know you a little and looking forward to/hoping we will be supporting eachother from now on. I like it when things work out 'cause where I grew up......nothing ever got worked out and I just wanna do things differently! More FOO stuff. Gee, there's more than I ever imagined :roll:). At least that seems like a positive effect from a negatvie experience eh?
On edit: (Why do I think of these things after I push "save"?). Thankyou, Hope, for trusting me enough to communicate with. That's not so easy either and I appreciate it very much.
Hops! Are you trying to get my head to blow up? Bodaciously honest? Waaaaaaay too generous, Hops. Waaaaaay. But thankyou for being so kind, sincere and lovable yourself, and for bothering to comment and for saying such nice things. You make the world a much softer and beautiful place.
:D Sela
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Thank you, Hops!
Honesty and accountability are absolutely essential to growing up, I think.
As you said... it's about maturity.
I used to think that my own behaviour was quite mature... and I imagine that it appeared so, at least to casual observers.
I have quite an imagination, it seems :P
What's become glaringly obvious to me now is that there was a definite dichotomy between my outward actions (which usually consisted of zipping my lips) and the turmoil within. I guess the word "repressed" pretty much sums it up. Then, once I started trying to communicate and not hold all that in, it was either all mind and no heart, or all heart with no mind... lol - oy vey.
With no sleight on the macho gender at all, I seem to have become quite "male" in my method of thinking/communicating
Since I've been able to take my tumbly emotions to God and say - Hey, I don't know what to do with all this mess - and then "see" Him smile at me with His gentle longsuffering - I've been able to make more deliberate efforts to unite the inner with the outer (if that makes sense).
Watched a television drama the other night where the main character, an addict, went through rehab. At least, he appeared to. But all the while, he'd paid someone to switch his meds from the one which was supposed to wean him off vicodin to the real deal, vicodin itself. That really struck me... because, in a way, I see that's what I've done through parts of this recovery process.
In trying to face my fears and force myself to deal with the sorts of conflicts which I'd spent a lifetime avoiding, I put myself into situations for which I wasn't equipped and had no tools to manage. As a result, I'd self-medicate with the old drugs of detachment, emotional iciness, and probably a few more of which I'm not even aware... yet :)
That's a big part of the reason why I've decided to continue trying to share here at this forum...
not because I think that I've got it all sewn up, but in order to uncover the rest of the picture.
I just want to approach this with the attitude of King David, in his prayer so many years ago...
"Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: and see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting."
Thanks again for your encouragement!
Hi Sela,
This is interesting to me... I didn't feel at all that I was kept waiting for a reply, Sela.
And that's not a matter so much of emotional detachment as it is another conscious, deliberate effort of mine to avoid attaching expectations to others. Thanks for helping me to see that!
It's something I've had to deal with recently in 3-D life, when someone didn't respond to me in a manner that I considered timely.
There was a brief flash of anger - followed by an immediate realization that I was mad because my feelings were hurt. And why would my feelings be hurt? Because I expected the other person to read my mind? Because I didn't expect them to have any more important things to do than tend to me? Examining these questions helped me to lay that matter to rest without harboring resentment (or any further expectations - lol). Glad that got settled! I still haven't heard back from that person and that's okay.
Re: things working out... yes, it's good when they do. It's wonderful to try to promote that sort of conciliation... and I think it's very, very healthy to recognize that reconciliation will not always be possible. Just speaking in general here... because I don't feel or think (trying to look at those two separately these days) that you and I have anything to reconcile.
We are just two different individuals sharing views and opinions about some very difficult topics, which is naturally going to bring some disagreement, but hopefully not wounded hearts. I can accept that :)
Again, I think this leads back to the theme of expectations.
Personally, I don't expect to re-enact or resolve "family of origin" issues here.
I expect that the opportunity for re-enactment will present itself, but I hope not to pursue that course.
What I expect is to be able to learn to communicate on a variety of issues with kindness and gentleness, not assuming that I know what a person needs or even wants, but just available to share as the opportunity arises... to share - and to receive.
With regard to trusting... Sela, I don't think that I ever needed to trust you enough to communicate.
I just needed to trust myself enough... which, for me, translates to trusting "God in me".
I've always tended to give other people far too much power over my own thoughts and emotions. I believe that is what's changed in me now. So whether or not I "trust" the other is irrelevant now to a certain extent? Yes, I think it is. I mean, as far as admitting my faults and weaknesses. I still wouldn't loan my car to just anyone or give some stranger my life savings to invest... but talking about failings and struggles is easy, because they're always before my eyes (and those of everyone around me).
Talking about hopes and dreams... now that may be an area where I'd have to trust the person more... will have to think on that.
Thanks again for the opportunity to dig into these things and take a closer look!
Hope