Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: mountainspring on July 13, 2007, 12:45:47 PM
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Just received an email from my mother sent to me and a slew of others on Dad's progress. She described some of things things that happened while I was there....
She says.... he was tired that morning and wouldn't wake up and that I was 'beating' on his chest and calling Dad, Dad...
NOT TRUE.... I shook him and said Dad, Dad
And the doctors told him to quit work..
NOT TRUE... he decided to quit work after being hounded by her.
What is it with her making things sound worse. What good does that do anybody.
I'm breathing deeply and letting it go :x Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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How good to see you Mountainspring - long time no see.
What is it with her making things sound worse. What good does that do anybody.
I think it is part of the grandiosity. I don't fully understand how the gradiose aspect is related to making things worse but I suspect it is part of making her "suffering" greater and therefore her sainthood larger. - Just a thought - GS
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Hi Ms,
Sorry you're being sent junky emails. Two more ideas:
First......
She is projecting her shame onto you (trying to):
She is the one who was beating him up and hounding him with words but she can't face the shame of that so she's trying to make you out to be the real bad guy.
And second....
If she can get you to react like a bad guy.....if she can upset you and make you mad enough to respond in anger.....she prooves her point to herself and keeps her own lie going in her head.
I bet that's why.
Do you plan to respond?
Sela
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((((((((MS))))))))))
I think Sela landed right on it. (Wow, Sela.)
I think your mother describing you as "beating" on your father's chest was an amazingly unconscious projection.
Perfect wisdom in those.
And just no point in debating that kind of thing....she won't hear you anyway I think, hon. Anybody with that much bad karma to project, well, their head is already full of a great deal of noise, many voices, monologues, drama, and likely it's very chaotic in her mind.
She can't hear you, and logic is a luxury she doesn't have.
I'd just address her compassionately from here on, I think. No need to interact at length if it's upsetting to you, but perhaps you could ignore all her crap behavior (which sounds as unconscious as her thinking) and just say now and then, this is very hard for you to see Dad so ill, I know.
And then do what you can (but not more, dear--I think you need to draw those boundaries too. Your Dad knows you love him, and he knows this is just his chapter he's in. Fear isnt all that's in his head and he's not crazy).
I feel the same way around my Mom, who's 96 and certainly knows the Grim Reaper is near. I think that sometimes she focuses on the fear. And other times, when she's ill or tired, she seems accepting. At SOME level, every one of us will understand when we're old and ill that we are just old and ill.
We've been alive many years as human beings, and we know that death is part of life. We all do. We may not like it, and our various personalities will influence how our last chapters play out...but we do know. Since we buried our first fallen bird as children, we know.
love to you MS, and all of you.
Hops
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Yes, yes, yes… grandiosity, projection, and shame. Her same bag of tricks, different day.
I won’t respond. I’m battling the ‘rescue’ dad thing. The trap of the whole situation is what to do with it. It feels wrong to let it happen, yet I can’t control it. I can’t control how my mother acts. I hate how she acts and I hate the fact that I can’t stop her from doing it to me or to him. It feels like abusers always win. And now I’m thinking I just wrote win, and the word win indicates a battle, and it’s not a battle I want to fight.
The only way to get out of the battle is to refuse to play it. And I’m not sure exactly how to go about that. Doing nothing feels like I’m condoning it, and fighting it seems like I’m trying to either control it or rescue Dad. I know letting go is important for my growth and my health, but sometimes it’s so damned hard. So I’m thinking I could respond and speak my truth and then let it go. But I don’t trust myself just speak my truth and stop, because if I respond and she responds back I know I’m going to feel a very strong urge to continue and I’ll be right back on the battlefield again, which is not what I want.
My mother plays these little mind games and she always has and she always will. So I think the way to heal from it is to step away, because when I step away I can see things more clearly and am better able to take care of myself. Doing nothing feels like I’m abandoning Dad, but it’s only feeling. This is what I keep telling myself. It’s only a feeling. I’m not abandoning my Dad, I’m respecting his choice to put up with all of this, because he is very aware she does these things. And this is why things get so foggy concerning his health. He know she does this, so he plays his illness down, and she plays it up, and the truth lies somewhere in between.
You know what feels so weird. For years I thought I didn’t have a control issue. I’d been so careful because my mother’s attempt to control everything I thought and did destroyed me as a child. So when I had my children I was going to be different. They choose their own clothes, their own activities and their own friends. My policy is that as long as it’s safe and it doesn’t hurt them or others, they’re pretty much allowed to do what they want. But I’ve learned as Dad has gotten sicker just how much of an issue it is with me. It’s easy not to control when things are going well, but let something happen that’s totally out of control and that feels very threatening to me like his illness come up, and the drive to control her and him is very strong. It makes me not like myself very much.
But this is progress. Self control and not other control. I can see what is happening, I can choose not to respond, and each time I do it’s practice, and maybe the next time the urge won’t feel as strong. Lot’s to be thankful for right? At least the words aren’t stuck in my throat , I can write them. At least I can see what’s happening, it’s not just this blob of anger that I can’t identify. Just part of managing my emotions… once I learn to do that I’ll be free… I hope.
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Good one MS! Letter fly!!
It is sooooo frustrating! I can hear your frustration and I know my own, in similar situations. I like your choice to not respond because it does truly only feed the hungry monster.
Plus.....it will likely be upsetting for your dad because she'll more than likely relay whatever you write in some twisted manner and make war, not peace, the primary objective.
So if you keep venting here and let her stew in her own pot.....things will likely end up less crazy. Not completely uncrazy, though, because I bet she'll keep trying...poking....goading.
She doesn't win unless you play.....I agree. You can state your truth, if you like, but she won't hear it, won't accept it and won't repeat it. You might as well send gibberish! She'll make the same sense out of it (because she isn't sensible....logical....realistic.....or honest with herself or you and it isn't likely gonna change today or anytime soon).
Frustrating? Oh ya!! Ofcourse, you can decide not to let her pee in your cornflakes.....to vent away here, get it outta your system and then .....
.....go on with your day, week, life......living in contentment and truth.
The problem isn't that you want to control her behaviour. The problem is you don't like her trying to control you (which is a healthy reaction and not a problem at all). By goading you and baiting you and lying to you......she is trying to control you by generating a nasty reaction. She can't do it unless you let her. She can try and try and try but never get the job done....
.....unless you blow and give her what she wants.
What a pathetic way to live eh? Aren't you glad you have your hubby and kids who live in peace together.
Let her boil in her own broth, MS. It's not worth the agrivation.
Sela
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Dear MS,
There is so much wisdom on these posts that I am in awe. I just want to say that it is so hard to beleive that your own parents can be so "crazy". You are so familiar with all the little things about them-- they are so normal to you-- that you can forget how awful it is to be related to them.
I can see so much sickness and "evil"(IMO), in your mother. However,it is a "shock" to see it in mine.
I need people on here to tell me how "awful" she is.
I can see with your mother that iti s an evil game that she is playing. She probably cannot "help" it. However,it is evil,nonetheless.
My opinion is that your father " cannot" be rescued by you. He is part of the sickness. Vaknin writes about the family members becoming a part of the sickness. It is like a knot. They are tied together in a way that you cannot extricate.
For my father,he told me ,in so many words , that he would never face the truth. How could I help him if he "won't let go"?
It is horrible,pitiful and a "nightmare that your mother has to be so sick and evil. However, the N mother will never "stop" . You could twist yourself the most you possibly could and nothing would change at all. You would be twisted--- that is it. I am so, so very sorry MS Love Ami
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You know what feels so weird. For years I thought I didn’t have a control issue. I’d been so careful because my mother’s attempt to control everything I thought and did destroyed me as a child. So when I had my children I was going to be different. They choose their own clothes, their own activities and their own friends. My policy is that as long as it’s safe and it doesn’t hurt them or others, they’re pretty much allowed to do what they want. But I’ve learned as Dad has gotten sicker just how much of an issue it is with me. It’s easy not to control when things are going well, but let something happen that’s totally out of control and that feels very threatening to me like his illness come up, and the drive to control her and him is very strong. It makes me not like myself very much.
But this is progress. Self control and not other control. I can see what is happening, I can choose not to respond, and each time I do it’s practice, and maybe the next time the urge won’t feel as strong. Lot’s to be thankful for right? At least the words aren’t stuck in my throat , I can write them. At least I can see what’s happening, it’s not just this blob of anger that I can’t identify. Just part of managing my emotions… once I learn to do that I’ll be free… I hope.
Mountainspring,
What leaps out at me here is that your response to all of this is just that - a response - and not a reaction. That is so encouraging! Thank you for expressing it here.
I've been thinking through many of the same issues and concerns - re: rescuing my Dad and what it truly means to honor our parents (especially when they may not be worthy of that honor). Distance has allowed me the time and space to gradually come to the conclusions which you've drawn here - I can control self, choosing not to respond, and each time - through practice - build up a sort of immunity to the urge to just go... blah!!! & erupt all over the place :) Managing emotions instead of allowing them to manage us is definitely a key to freedom from these traps.
Thanks again... and best wishes on continued successes!
Hope
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Hi MS,
Yep, sounds just like my NMother!
For instance: Here's one thing that stands out in my mind.
When I was about 13, I became interested in the occult. Minor stuff, really. No dancing around naked to a full moon or hurting people or animals. Just READING about it. Astral projection, Edgar Cayce, ect.
Well, that's when Mood Rings came into fashion. Anybody old enough to remember those?
I had one & I told my NMother that one day I was going to become a witch. I know, most parents might become concerned, right? I would too! But my mother tells people that TO THIS DAY!!!
I was 13! Tells people like it's a FACT. That I'm a card carrying Samantha Stevens!
I keep telling her "Mother, I was 13!"
BTW, I'm a Christian now, have been since 1994.
She KNOWS this, but persists in telling everyone that story.
AAAAAARRRRGGG!
Oh well, to them we will always have our labels!
Love,
Bigalspal
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I gotta say, I don't equate dancing around under a full moon with hurting people or animals...
I have no attraction whatsoever to the occult but on behalf of innocent pagans, I'm obliged to say it ain't the same.
'Course, I do dance around my front lawn nekkid while doing my best imitation of a she-wolf now and then, but only when the neighbors are asleep.
(Kidding.)
xo
Hops
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Hops,
You are so crazy! :lol:
I'm afraid if I danced around nekked ANYWHERE, gravity would hit & everything would be on the floor!! But give me my husband & a margarita....well, then I'd have to say YES!
At my age, I just make sure the lights are dimmed!
You know what Jeff Foxworthy says the difference between NAKED & NEKKED is, don't you?
NEKKED is when we're up to something!! :wink:
Love,
Bigalspal
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Hi Ami…. it’s hard for me to see them as a package. I see pictures of my Dad when he was young and he has such a happy vibrant expression on his face, and now he looks sad and distant. And I don’t see that he really had much choice in staying with my mother. There are 3 kids in our family and he was a pastor, and back then men didn’t get custody of kids. Maybe I relate to him so much because I feel he was trapped, and I’ve felt that way myself too. They did separate twice, divorce once, then remarry, but I was 16 when all that started and already living with Mammaw. When that happened he lost his church, and he worked for 15 or 20 years programming computers before getting the last church he had. He looks so defeated. It’s hard not to want to rescue. I haven’t resolved in my head whether she is evil or really really sick. Probably both. Sometimes her actions feel very evil and other times they just look sick. I remember one time when she was having a family reunion and her brothers and sisters were coming. My sister was coming and she was distraught. My sister has nothing to do with them and at the time Mammaw was living with them. My sister was coming to see Mammaw, but Mom was convinced she would make a scene, and you should have seen the look of terror in her eyes. She had no concern for my sister, but I could tell she was horrified that my sister was going to expose her somehow. The things she did to us as children were evil, but I struggle with her motivation. Is it to destroy her children or because she’s so sick she needs to protect herself that much. I just don’t know but I do know she has her own reality and she can’t see anyone outside that reality.
Sela… humor is so healing… peeing in the cornflakes and boiling in the broth. Laughter eases the pain, so much so I search for it on you tube almost daily!!!
Yes Certain Hope, the training the brain to respond and not react. Training the brain that her actions are about her. I talk with my T about these things and for the past 2 years she brings me back to me. I’ve been one bundle of reacting in the past, and it does me no good. She this and she that and when will she stop etc. etc. Maybe my answers aren’t about figuring her out, it’s acknowledging that she’s very sick, she has no interest changing, dealing with that and learning how to walk away from the rut that trying to figure out the abuse has left me in. I don’t want to deal with this anymore, I want the pain to stop so I can move on. And just when I’m ready to do that, it’s like she can feel it, and she tells me things I’ve wanted to hear from her all my life. Then I think, what if she’s changing. It’s a circled trap. Managing my emotions is a big issue for me, still learning to do that.
Bigalspal… I remember the mood rings!! Had a couple when I was in junior high. I think the witch was your mother…. and my mom does that same sick thing, retelling things she knows bother me, but she alters the truth each time.
I know what the truth is. She is sick, she is sick, she is sick, and there’s not a thing that can be done about. I want to feel the truth, to get rid of any hope for change cause I think that’s what keeps me stuck.
I guess the email was just more practice, looking at the truth and seeing it, feeling the pain so I can let go some more. I’m feeling better. And I know if I had reacted I’d feel worse. Things like this let me know I’m on the right track, even if the pace seems slow.
Hey, dancing under the moon sounds like fun to me too!!! :D
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have seen the look of terror in her eyes. She had no concern for my sister, but I could tell she was horrified that my sister was going to expose her somehow. The things she did to us as children were evil, but I struggle with her motivation. Is it to destroy her children or because she’s so sick she needs to protect herself that much. I just don’t know but I do know she has her own reality and she can’t see anyone outside that reality
Dear Ms,
When I say "evil", I mean it in the sense of being decieved and living in lies. Scott peck wrote about 'People of the Lie". It is about people who will destroy others so they can keep the "lie" about themselves. This is what I mean by evil
Maybe, your father just picked a "bad" mate and was stuck b/c of his beliefs.
Love Ami
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Yes Certain Hope, the training the brain to respond and not react. Training the brain that her actions are about her. I talk with my T about these things and for the past 2 years she brings me back to me. I’ve been one bundle of reacting in the past, and it does me no good. She this and she that and when will she stop etc. etc. Maybe my answers aren’t about figuring her out, it’s acknowledging that she’s very sick, she has no interest changing, dealing with that and learning how to walk away from the rut that trying to figure out the abuse has left me in. I don’t want to deal with this anymore, I want the pain to stop so I can move on. And just when I’m ready to do that, it’s like she can feel it, and she tells me things I’ve wanted to hear from her all my life. Then I think, what if she’s changing. It’s a circled trap. Managing my emotions is a big issue for me, still learning to do that.
Dear Mountainspring,
Yes. For me it is becoming less and less about figuring anyone out, but simply acknowledging what is.
I know that "they" can sense it when we're just about to break out of that rut... just as "they" can sense when they've tightened the screws just shy of one revolution too many. I used to think... if they can sense that - if there's enough awareness of "other" which reaches their awareness to recognize that they've gone too far - then surely there's hope. But now I think that's just another tool they use in order to maintain absolute control.
There's a book I'm thinking of ordering which you may appreciate, as well. It's titled Cry of the Soul, by Dan Allender and Tremper Longman.
You might be familiar with some of Dan Allender's other books... one was The Wounded Heart.
Here's the summary on it...
"OPEN A WINDOW INTO YOUR HEART
Our dark emotions are much more than just uncomfortable feelings we struggle to control. They are windows into our hearts. They are the cry of our souls. These emotions—the ones we tend to suppress and hide—actually have something important to tell us. They can reveal, in a very graphic way, where we are in our relationship with God.
So often we find ourselves caught between extremes. Either we feel too much or not at all. We tend to ignore our feelings or fight them off as if they were an enemy. But all emotion—whether positive or negative—can give us a glimpse of the true nature of God. We want to control our negative emotions and dark desire. God wants us to recognize them as the cry of our soul to be made right with Him.
Beginning with the Psalms, Dr. Dan Allender and Dr. Tremper Longman III explore what Scripture says about our darker emotions. In this ground-breaking work they reveal that often our attempts to control our emotions—far from an attempt to be Christlike—are really a form of rebellion against God or an attempt to flee from Him.
The Cry of the Soul is a penetrating look at the condition of the human heart. You won’t find the kind of answers that alleviate struggle or help you overcome anger, jealousy, or despair in three easy steps. But you can encounter God Himself, who exults in using darkness to reveal the brilliance of His infinite goodness. The result is joy—not a superficial happiness that ignores the problems of our lives, but a profound emotion that can confront darkness with open eyes and confidence."
I dunno... sounds to me like a helpful resource.
Hugs, MS
Hope
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Hi Ami… that definition of evil really fits in with my mother’s actions. The other definition may too, I’m not sure. I understand what you’re saying. Thanks.
Hi Certain Hope,
Thanks for the book suggestion. I appreciate your trying to help. My problem with the book is it doesn’t make sense to me. It sends alarm bells out for me. This especially…
In this ground-breaking work they reveal that often our attempts to control our emotions—far from an attempt to be Christlike—are really a form of rebellion against God or an attempt to flee from Him.
I am a PK and a lot of the abuse I suffered as a child was “ in God’s name” so my thinking on this may not seem clear. I have trouble with an author that claims that my trouble in managing my emotions is a result of rebelliousness against God. If my daughter skins her knee falling off of a swing no one would tell her that her injury was as a result of rebelliousness. She fell and hurt herself and that is why she is suffering. I don’t trust churches/authors/pastors that give pat answers to human suffering. My struggle is the result of being born to woman who believed it was okay to humiliate, shame and abuse me ‘in God’s name’ and it’s also the result of my refusing to deal with my pain as an adult for so many years.
Not that I don’t rebel. There is nothing saintly or perfect about me. But my emotional pain doesn’t feel like rebellion. It feels like deep hurt and deep anger. I haven’t heard of this particular author, and maybe if he came from an abusive home I’d be more open to reading what he has to say. But if he hasn’t, he can’t know the answer to things he hasn’t experienced himself. The book description has me curious about why the author has come to the conclusions he has. I don’t understand why attempting to control and rid myself of emotions that are harmful to me would be wrong.
I’m actively trying to heal. I research on the computer, talk to my T, and actively work to identify why I’m struggle to manage emotions that seem unmanageable for me. I want to heal. It feels like a maze for me. I had nothing to with God or the church for many years. It’s just been in the past year or so that I’ve begun to pray and think about God and try to find more of the truth about who He is. Church is very triggering for me, and I don’t go consistently. Maybe that is rebellion. But I do listen to Gaither on you tube almost daily and when they sing their happy songs that’s when I feel closest to God.
Thanks for listening.
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Hi MS,
It's so sad that PEOPLE try to speak for GOD.
I just cannot imagine GOD wanting a family to be so cruel to an innocent child!
Now, I AM a Christian, but I would NEVER treat a child they way you've be treated.
In the name of RELIGION. I think that's where mankind goes so horrible wrong. They confuse GOD with RELIGION. KWIM? My GOD is a loving GOD. He's the father I have not had on this earth.
Yes, there are consequences for stupid decisions, but he's not waiting for me to mess up & punish me through my parents! I wasn't RAISED Christian, but I know that must of hurt you really badly.
Love,
Bigalspal
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Hi Certain Hope,
Thanks for the book suggestion. I appreciate your trying to help. My problem with the book is it doesn’t make sense to me. It sends alarm bells out for me. This especially…
In this ground-breaking work they reveal that often our attempts to control our emotions—far from an attempt to be Christlike—are really a form of rebellion against God or an attempt to flee from Him.
I am a PK and a lot of the abuse I suffered as a child was “ in God’s name” so my thinking on this may not seem clear. I have trouble with an author that claims that my trouble in managing my emotions is a result of rebelliousness against God. If my daughter skins her knee falling off of a swing no one would tell her that her injury was as a result of rebelliousness. She fell and hurt herself and that is why she is suffering. I don’t trust churches/authors/pastors that give pat answers to human suffering. My struggle is the result of being born to woman who believed it was okay to humiliate, shame and abuse me ‘in God’s name’ and it’s also the result of my refusing to deal with my pain as an adult for so many years.
Not that I don’t rebel. There is nothing saintly or perfect about me. But my emotional pain doesn’t feel like rebellion. It feels like deep hurt and deep anger. I haven’t heard of this particular author, and maybe if he came from an abusive home I’d be more open to reading what he has to say. But if he hasn’t, he can’t know the answer to things he hasn’t experienced himself. The book description has me curious about why the author has come to the conclusions he has. I don’t understand why attempting to control and rid myself of emotions that are harmful to me would be wrong.
I’m actively trying to heal. I research on the computer, talk to my T, and actively work to identify why I’m struggle to manage emotions that seem unmanageable for me. I want to heal. It feels like a maze for me. I had nothing to with God or the church for many years. It’s just been in the past year or so that I’ve begun to pray and think about God and try to find more of the truth about who He is. Church is very triggering for me, and I don’t go consistently. Maybe that is rebellion. But I do listen to Gaither on you tube almost daily and when they sing their happy songs that’s when I feel closest to God.
Thanks for listening.
I understand, Mountainspring, and I'm sorry... I think now that I should've taken the time to explain what I thought might be so helpful about this book. I've not yet read it, but having read other works by this author, I'm sure that he's not condoning either abuse or the stifling of emotions... in fact, I expect it's just the opposite. Nonetheless, in my opinion, your skepticism about Christians' inclination to pat answers is wise and entirely justified... and I share that cynicism! And I thank you so much for taking the time and effort to tell me why you have deep concerns about this book.
Just as a matter of information, the first book by Allender which I read was The Wounded Heart -
subtitled: Hope for Adult Victims of Sexual Abuse.
There's an excerpt here http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0891092897/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-0458540-1095903#reader-link (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0891092897/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-0458540-1095903#reader-link)
Because of the way that book helped me, I have to say that any suggestion to deny, stuff, hide, re-write, or otherwise inappropriately deal with emotions which come as a result of abuse is the last thing I'd expect from this author.
In fact, I think what he's getting at in this latest book is something that I've seen lived out by a dear friend of mine who suffered severe abuse and molestation as a child, with no help whatsoever from her mother, of whom she now speaks as though the woman were a saint. She once shared with me her mother's obituary, which confirmed her status of sainthood and made me want to scream. The newspaper write-up spoke of this enabler in such glowing terms - oh, how she'd devoted her life to the church and to the childrens' ministry - when in reality, she had done nothing to protect her youngest child in her own home. But my friend will not see that. She thinks it's ungodly to see things as they were and place the responsibility where it belongs, so she's completely skipped over the entire process of allowing herself to feel her anger and jumped straight into a sense of false forgiveness where she rewrites history so that her mother appears with a halo. That, to me, is a rebellious attempt to "control" emotions instead of working through them. But that has nothing to do with you and your situation. If I'd followed your posts more closely, I may have recognized that, and so - again, I'm sorry. I didn't know that alot of your past abuse was done "in God's name".
I do know that my own father allowed my mother to rule his home (and him and me) in God's name, in a sense. And that is not as it should be.
I'm glad you enjoy the Gaithers :) I do, too... on the radio, at times. Lots of "gospel" music stations in our area... and it's fun, uplifting, and makes me happy, too.
With love,
Hope
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Hi Certain Hope,
I’ve read the full excerpt in the link you sent. In it the author encourages facing your pain, fully acknowledging the damaging effects the abuse causes and how scary it is to come out of denial. It was the opposite of the first impression I had of him and I should have researched the author more before making any comment.
Please don’t be sorry. I don’t know that I had shared that part of what happened in previous posts anyway. The abuse was mostly about her protecting her image, and the God part of it she snuck to make us more fearful.
I appreciate your posts and book recommendation. I think the book may be very helpful to me. The Wounded Heart one sounds like it may help also. Thanks for posting back and clearing it up. I’m glad you’re posting again CH.
Bigalspal.. it did and does hurt…. I’m glad it’s over now and I’m free to process it and heal from it… and glad I’m feeling freer to use my voice!! Hugs to you
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Oh, Mountainspring, I am so glad! :) Thank you for writing back... you've made my evening :)
And in the process of all this, I thought there was another of Allender's books around here that I'd bought back in the bad old ex-N-days, hoping that it might help. Not long afterward, it became abundantly apparent that the situation was beyond that point... and the book's been stowed away ever since. Anyhow, I found it. Title is Intimate Allies, on the topic of marriage... and I'm starting it tonight. Never cracked the cover, I don't think... so much is a blur from back then.
But I'm glad to have re-discovered it and most glad that you replied here.
With love,
Hope