Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: BonesMS on July 15, 2007, 01:09:11 PM
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Yesterday, a friend of mine invited me to go with her to visit the Franciscan Monastery in Washington, D.C. and I accepted her invitation. We also had her mother, who has late stages of Alzheimer's Disease, with us. If anyone is familiar with the structure of the Monastery, it is NOT wheelchair accessible everywhere. When the tour group came to the part of the tour down to the replica of the Catacombs, this required maneuvering down a winding spiral staircase of MARBLE stairs! Keep in mind, my friend's mother is (a) 89 and 11 months years old, (b) her Alzheimer's Disease has progressed to the point where her balance and coordination are failing. My friend INSISTED that her mother could do these marble stairs IN SPITE of BOTH the tour guide and myself strongly advising her NOT to subject her mother to this hazard! She ignored both of us and forced her mother down these marble stairs while imposing on the tour guide to carry the wheelchair down these stairs! I was appalled and ready to shake her!!! It appeared to me that she was so FOCUSED on her own immediate gratification of what SHE wanted that she was completely ignoring her mother's disability because it was inconvenient. Talking to her is also an exercise in frustration because of her denial and her acting as if all her assumptions are always true. It's as if she is going through life with blinders on and continually giving herself permission to do whatever she wants...ignoring the impact it is having on others around her!!
GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!
Bones
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Wow,Bones..Your friend was ,obviously, not dealing with "reality" at that moment. She was acting on some lie,distortion or fantasy in her own mind. Maybe, she did not want to face how "bad' her mother was?
Whatever she was dealing with was 'blocking" the facing of the true facts, it seems .I would not travel anymore with her and her mother(lol) Love Ami
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It seems like your friend knew she would be able to count on someone, the tour guide, to assist her in her unreasonableness. The tour guide was in a rough spot. "The customer is always right" and there was a whole group of witnesses to add pressure to the situation. The tour guide probably had never run into someone so unreasonable and, in the moment, probably did not have a ready response to something so ridiculous and unreasonable. This is the way N-types get so much of what they want. They seem to know how to do this naturally.
Pennyplant
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Wow,Bones..Your friend was ,obviously, not dealing with "reality" at that moment. She was acting on some lie,distortion or fantasy in her own mind. Maybe, she did not want to face how "bad' her mother was?
Whatever she was dealing with was 'blocking" the facing of the true facts, it seems .I would not travel anymore with her and her mother(lol) Love Ami
I do try to continually intercede on the mother's behalf since I'm aware of what Alzheimer's is about and poor Mom can't speak up for herself.
Bones
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It seems like your friend knew she would be able to count on someone, the tour guide, to assist her in her unreasonableness. The tour guide was in a rough spot. "The customer is always right" and there was a whole group of witnesses to add pressure to the situation. The tour guide probably had never run into someone so unreasonable and, in the moment, probably did not have a ready response to something so ridiculous and unreasonable. This is the way N-types get so much of what they want. They seem to know how to do this naturally.
Pennyplant
That describes the situation perfectly!
Bones
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Bones,
What you describe of your friend fits my brother to a "t". Toward the end of our grandmother's life, he was still treating her in this oblivious manner. She still had control over her mental functions and was able to tell him "no", but then he'd sulk and behave as though she was being difficult. Before I knew of "N", I thought that he was just in denial. Now I think it's a whole lot more than that.
Whatever it is, there's no changin it as far as I can tell. He's pushing 60 and still expects our 86 year old dad to tend to his summer home and mow his acres of weeds.
I'm sorry you were caught in the middle of this. As Pennyplant said, they just seem to know how to shock people into compliance.
So unreasonable, so ridiculous... people seem to freeze in a moment of disbelief and then click into robot mode and go along with it.
Honestly, it's the closest thing to casting a spell on someone that I've ever seen.
Hope
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Bones,
What you describe of your friend fits my brother to a "t". Toward the end of our grandmother's life, he was still treating her in this oblivious manner. She still had control over her mental functions and was able to tell him "no", but then he'd sulk and behave as though she was being difficult. Before I knew of "N", I thought that he was just in denial. Now I think it's a whole lot more than that.
Whatever it is, there's no changin it as far as I can tell. He's pushing 60 and still expects our 86 year old dad to tend to his summer home and mow his acres of weeds.
I'm sorry you were caught in the middle of this. As Pennyplant said, they just seem to know how to shock people into compliance.
So unreasonable, so ridiculous... people seem to freeze in a moment of disbelief and then click into robot mode and go along with it.
Honestly, it's the closest thing to casting a spell on someone that I've ever seen.
Hope
The tour guide was clearly in a No-Win situation. At times, I have ended up YELLING at her when she does stupid stuff like this and my yelling FINALLY gets her attention. Then she'll respond with something like: "Ohhhhhh!!!! Does THAT mean (insert the obvious)." In this situation, inside a church where people were praying, I couldn't raise my voice. At the same time, I was FUMING and she continued to act oblivious to the expression on my face! I would have LOVED to haul off and slap her but then I would be arrested for assault and battery. Sheesh!!!
Bones
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Boy howdy,
What brothers me most in this situation is a nearly 90-year-old woman being harrassed into something that was both dangerous and no doubt exhausting for her. She was the vulnerable one and your friend sounds abusive.
I believe I wouldn't have been able not to tell her: STOP it! This is too much for your mother!
Having Alzheimer's doesn't remove her right to be treated with compassion.
Hops
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Boy howdy,
What brothers me most in this situation is a nearly 90-year-old woman being harrassed into something that was both dangerous and no doubt exhausting for her. She was the vulnerable one and your friend sounds abusive.
I believe I wouldn't have been able not to tell her: STOP it! This is too much for your mother!
Having Alzheimer's doesn't remove her right to be treated with compassion.
Hops
I agree! And I have YELLED at her. more than once, about her actions and behaviors. Unfortunately, she still tends to go through life with her following philosophy: "I ASSUME that my assumptions are ALWAYS MAGICALLY TRUE and I ASSUME it's OKAY because I ALWAYS give MYSELF permission..." At times, she gets an idea fixated in her brain and as soon as she hears the word "NO", she gets this glaze over her eyes and starts "dithering" in the vain hope that the "NO" will magically change into a "YES". The only thing that succeeds in doing is starting me to YELLING again. Then she'll respond with something like: "Oh-h-h-h-h-! Does THAT mean "NO"?" Then I YELL at her some more while I get this blank look from her. I HATE being FORCED to EXPLAIN THE OBVIOUS REPEATEDLY!!!!!!!!
Bones
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This is when a clear statement of consequences is needed.
"If you continue to try bringing your mother down those dangerous steps I'm afraid I'm going to have to have the tour guide call security to watch over your mother. If you wish to continue on our tour and see some of the other sites, I'd be happy to accompany you."
NO doubt as to what will happen either way.
Then follow through.
Don't be scared to call security. Ever.
Dandylife
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This is when a clear statement of consequences is needed.
"If you continue to try bringing your mother down those dangerous steps I'm afraid I'm going to have to have the tour guide call security to watch over your mother. If you wish to continue on our tour and see some of the other sites, I'd be happy to accompany you."
NO doubt as to what will happen either way.
Then follow through.
Don't be scared to call security. Ever.
Dandylife
Thanks, Dandylife.
Come to think of it, I've never seen a security force at the Monastery with the monks there.
Bones
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Definite action to be taken.
Being in a 'chair and also used to use crutches when younger, the intense fear I would have in some places was 'paralyzing' (pardon the pun) but I mean that.
When I broke my ankle in '03 was the last I used the crutches. It was Xmas and a gal invited me, but she made no arrangements for someone to help me up the 14 steps coming in the front.
She did it herself as I ambulated up a slight snowy slope of grass [slippery] then 4 steps + landing +4 steps and she carried my chair. My cast [Roboboot] made my legs different lengths and she was so little that I would have killed her had I fallen backwards.
That kind of fear--of falliing and braking something, let alone somethiung important, dopes make one's head just go totally empty except for fear.
I haven't returned and that is my choice because her place is oputside the limits of my situation.
xx
Izzy
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Dear Bones,
Your story makes me think about books I've read which said that once we become aware of narcissism, we start looking at our "friends" and we may find them to be Ns.
This has already happened to me and I have stopped being "friendly" with former friends. I began to see their toxicity and decide life was too short to spend time with them.
Love,
sally
PS: Read about your job situation and I am so sorry. But, somewhere in my gut, I feel you can turn lemons into lemonade, may be a blessing in disguise.
Idea/question: Is it difficult in your area to become certified to teach grade school? If not, what about getting your teaching credentials and combining that with substance abuse and working in a school?
Sorry, I should post this on your job thread.
Love,
Sally
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Dear Bones,
Your story makes me think about books I've read which said that once we become aware of narcissism, we start looking at our "friends" and we may find them to be Ns.
This has already happened to me and I have stopped being "friendly" with former friends. I began to see their toxicity and decide life was too short to spend time with them.
Love,
sally
PS: Read about your job situation and I am so sorry. But, somewhere in my gut, I feel you can turn lemons into lemonade, may be a blessing in disguise.
Idea/question: Is it difficult in your area to become certified to teach grade school? If not, what about getting your teaching credentials and combining that with substance abuse and working in a school?
Sorry, I should post this on your job thread.
Love,
Sally
Thanks, Sally.
After working in a school setting for 26 years, then getting physically assaulted by a student, I have no desire to be dealing with school kids again.
Bones
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Definite action to be taken.
Being in a 'chair and also used to use crutches when younger, the intense fear I would have in some places was 'paralyzing' (pardon the pun) but I mean that.
When I broke my ankle in '03 was the last I used the crutches. It was Xmas and a gal invited me, but she made no arrangements for someone to help me up the 14 steps coming in the front.
She did it herself as I ambulated up a slight snowy slope of grass [slippery] then 4 steps + landing +4 steps and she carried my chair. My cast [Roboboot] made my legs different lengths and she was so little that I would have killed her had I fallen backwards.
That kind of fear--of falliing and braking something, let alone somethiung important, dopes make one's head just go totally empty except for fear.
I haven't returned and that is my choice because her place is oputside the limits of my situation.
xx
Izzy
One of my fears was watching this nearly 90-year-old lady lose her balance or her footing on this winding marble staircase which had no treads on the risers to give her any additional traction.
Bones
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Yes bones
your fear, so imagine hers--if she could put the picture together in her head-- and if her dementia is such that she couldn't see the danger, it's almost a crueler thing to do.
xx
Izzy
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Exactly!!!! All because of a self-centered, self-absorbed daughter who refused to listen to reason while barrelling ahead with what SHE wanted to do! :P
Bones
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I think I would have flat out refused to allow that poor woman to be marched down all those stairs. I guess I would have locked her wheels and sat there with her unless the tour guide offered to sit with her while I went and had a peek.
I feel a little like a hypocrit saying that bc I'm usually driven insane by a sib that forces me to do allll kinds of things against my better judgement but..... I'd like to think i'd draw the line for that lady in the wheelchairs sake.
i'm usually much more protective of other people's boundaries, than I am of my own.
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sorry I made the suggestion
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I think I would have flat out refused to allow that poor woman to be marched down all those stairs. I guess I would have locked her wheels and sat there with her unless the tour guide offered to sit with her while I went and had a peek.
I feel a little like a hypocrit saying that bc I'm usually driven insane by a sib that forces me to do allll kinds of things against my better judgement but..... I'd like to think i'd draw the line for that lady in the wheelchairs sake.
i'm usually much more protective of other people's boundaries, than I am of my own.
Thanks, Lighter.
Bones
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YVW, Bones.
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Just to give you an update......
Yesterday, this same friend wanted to go to the Aquatic Gardens in Washington, D.C. and take her disabled Mom along. She asked if I was interested in seeing these Gardens since I've never had the opportunity before. It's a good thing I decided to join them because said friend had this "idea" of having Mom WALK all around. Her "excuse" was that she didn't want to "ruin" the wheelchair wheels because the Garden has trails instead of sidewalks. This time, I put my foot down and told her that I will NOT permit her to stress her nearly 90-yar-old mother in that manner. Nature trails are strenous enough for people who are much younger and this is not fair to subject her Mother to THAT. Her response: "But I assume......" My response: "N-O! She is NOT going to walk through all that! We are going to use the wheelchair with her!" We also soon learned that the trails are not that wheelchair accessible either. Many of the trails have a lot of gravel. As a result, the wheels of the chair sank deep into the gravel. My friend asked a park ranger if it was alright if we could have Mom wait with either a volunteer or a ranger while we looked at something a short distance away. Fortunately, the ranger said "No Problem" and we proceeded with that arrangement while Mom rested in the shade. (Many kind people often went over to hold her hand and talk to her. She got a VERY GOOD DEAL out of this! :))
On the way back from a Lotus Garden, while an Asian and Lotus Festival was wrapping up, a Korean lady, in full Korean garb approached me and gave me the most BEAUTIFUL paper lantern in the shape of a GIANT PINK LOTUS BLOSSOM!!! I was deeply touched as I did not expect that!!! She bowed deeply to me and thanked me and I bowed deeply back to her, gratefully thanking her for her kind and unexpected gift.
My friend's reaction?
She says, quite loudly: "Do you have anymore for ME? I WANT ONE!"
The Korean lady was already quietly walking away and ignored her. I'm looking at said friend and shaking my head in disgust. She just didn't get it about gifting and how it's rude and inappropriate to DEMAND a gift! What had been a quiet and contemplative moment was ruined with her loud demand that grated on my last nerve. Then she wanted to cram my paper lantern into a cardboard box which was too small. She got told "N-O!" on that deal as well!
I expect somewhat childish behavior from Mom because of her Alzheimer's. I was irritated at the N-ish behavior of her daughter!
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!
Bones
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Bones,
Got a question: Why do you hang out with this "friend"? If it were me, I'd run the other way.
Are you hanging out with her to protect the mother?
Sally
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::::CLAPPING!::
Oh what the heck, lol?
::doing the snoopy dance::
You asserted yourself and didb't spend time walking around fuming at your friend for things she did to her mom.
Really outstanding.....
Good for you!
Loved the paper lantern story.
Too bad you can't block what comes out of your friend's mouth: /
Hmmm.... friend?
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Dear Bones,
If you forgive me the irreverence but I can see " Bones Travel Guide". You go to the Great Wall of China .
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Bones,
Got a question: Why do you hang out with this "friend"? If it were me, I'd run the other way.
Are you hanging out with her to protect the mother?
Sally
At this point, Mom needs an advocate since she is no longer able to speak up for herself. As I perceive it, the "friend", who I have known since 10th grade, does display N-ish behavior. Her two sisters basically ignore their Mother because her Alzheimer's is "inconvenient" and makes her "messy and smelly". One son-in-law is being stretched between his own mother, who is declining physically, and his mother-in-law who has the Alzheimer's. I can see the stress he is under and I feel for him. Another son-in-law exhibits a LOT of symptoms of NPD and refuses to deal with his mother-in-law in ANY way because it might make him "look bad" to his rich clients. (He's a lawyer and he's into "looking good at all costs".) The remaining daughter is divorced and the few men she had been involved with want NOTHING to do with helping Mom in any way. To me, that leaves Mom pretty much in a very vulnerable position whenever the visiting nurses are not there on the weekends. Since Mom has been living with Alzheimer's for about ten years, and she will be turning 90 in August, she may not have much longer to live and I want her to be as comfortable and loved as much as possible. So if I had to choose between avoiding "friend", knowing Mom will be neglected on the weekends, or staying involved to protect Mom, I prefer to protect Mom for the time left she has on this Earth. It boils down to this question for me: "WWJD?"
Bones
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::::CLAPPING!::
Oh what the heck, lol?
::doing the snoopy dance::
You asserted yourself and didb't spend time walking around fuming at your friend for things she did to her mom.
Really outstanding.....
Good for you!
Loved the paper lantern story.
Too bad you can't block what comes out of your friend's mouth: /
Hmmm.... friend?
Thanks, Lighter!
Bones
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Dear Bones,
If you forgive me the irreverence but I can see " Bones Travel Guide". You go to the Great Wall of China .
:lol: Thanks, Ami! :lol:
Bones
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Bones...I'm very touched by your feeling a commitment to an elderly woman with Alzheimer's who a family friend but not a relative.
Can I come live in your village when I'm old? We all need to look out for each other like that.
love
Hops
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Bones..... I'm curiouse.
What was your friend's mother like, in your opinion?
The song...."if ya want nice kids.... be nice to your kids" comes to mind.
She seems to have raised some very selfish N'ish children.
From where you sat as a child, and with some hindsight, what happened? In your opinion.
I'm raising children now. I want them to be confident and strong.... able to create and defend healthy boundaries.
I don't want them to be pushy and mean, selfish and unable to form loving human bonds and unable to feel appropriate responsibility towards loved ones. And require it for themselves.
My feeling is that people are born with a certain character and parents either minimize it or make it larger.
What do you think?
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Dear Lighter,
I wanted to add something that I think helped to make my kids empathic, I let them know how I was feeling-- in an honest way. I let them know that I was frustrated , insecure, etc. I did not just hide my feelings or displace them on to them or something else
My kids are very empathetic about hurting people. My younger one(golden) works in soup kitchens, and Habitat for Humanity, while he is in college..My older one gives money to help single mothers or other hurting people at work.
I think that I,intuitively, did this right -- with them Love Ami
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Bones...I'm very touched by your feeling a commitment to an elderly woman with Alzheimer's who a family friend but not a relative.
Can I come live in your village when I'm old? We all need to look out for each other like that.
love
Hops
:) Thanks, Hops! :)
Bones
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Bones..... I'm curiouse.
What was your friend's mother like, in your opinion?
The song...."if ya want nice kids.... be nice to your kids" comes to mind.
She seems to have raised some very selfish N'ish children.
From where you sat as a child, and with some hindsight, what happened? In your opinion.
I'm raising children now. I want them to be confident and strong.... able to create and defend healthy boundaries.
I don't want them to be pushy and mean, selfish and unable to form loving human bonds and unable to feel appropriate responsibility towards loved ones. And require it for themselves.
My feeling is that people are born with a certain character and parents either minimize it or make it larger.
What do you think?
From what I know over the years, the father was VERY N-ish. He might have had full-blown NPD. He refused to be involved with his daughters and only turned up when he wanted to take something...leaving his family to fend for themselves. (This was years before the law required deadbeat dads to pay child support or go to jail.) The separation was never legal. He just came and went at his own whim. When my friend was about to get married and asked her father to give her away, he told her that he couldn't be bothered to waste his time on her. That was the last time she had any contact with him. When the father died, he died alone. My feeling is that the daughters saw N-ish behavior modeled by their father while growing up and they, in turn, display the same kind of behavior.
Bones
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Looking back at this situation, in light of what NDoofus did afterwards, a LOT of things make better sense now!
Bones
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As we understand N behavior, hopefully, we can get free from it's effects, Bones. Ami
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As we understand N behavior, hopefully, we can get free from it's effects, Bones. Ami
Thanks, Ami!
I'm hoping that NDoofus will continue to leave me alone.
Bones
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Yes, Bones
It is hard to know how to defend ourselves,but we must--bleh. I wish that none of this pain and angst existed in the world.
Love Ami
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Yes, Bones
It is hard to know how to defend ourselves,but we must--bleh. I wish that none of this pain and angst existed in the world.
Love Ami
Thanks, Ami.
I agree!
Bones
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Looking back on the behaviors of NDoofus has finally made me realize that she is definitely an N and I've reduced contact with her to near zero. Occasionally she will send an e-mail, which is ignored, or call and she is informed that I do not wish to speak to her. With my health the way it is now, I don't need her brand of aggravation.
The bad thing is that it leaves her mother in a vulnerable situation. UGH! :P
Bones