Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on July 15, 2007, 02:39:56 PM
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Hi, all
I'd like to hear your views on this, if you wouldn't mind opining :)
My granddaughter is 3 1/2.
She and her mom, my eldest, live far away and are facing an issue about which my daughter has asked my advice.
Daughter is divorced now from her little girl's dad and they have joint custody.
Dad is a mess... drug problems and more. In fact, he's about to go to jail for one year.
Elisia (my granddaughter) has witnessed one of his arrests and knows that daddy went to "jail" for awhile at that time.
But this time it's for a year... and my daughter's question is - should she take Elisia to see her Dad while he's there.
I honestly don't know.
My youngest is 11 now and with some of the things we've had to manage in our family, I hate to see a little one need to deal with something like this at her tender age... and yet I don't really know how much of it she'll even comprehend.
Might it be even worse for her to have her dad disappear from her life for so long at this stage?
In the meanwhile, my daughter plans to pursue gaining full custody, but I don't think she'll try to prevent him from seeing her when he gets out.
The only thought I have is - at least Elisia is not in school yet where she'd potentially hear some awful stuff if she spoke up about the situation.
So - what do you think? Many thanks!
Hope
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Hi CH,
This is a hard situation. I wonder if the decision has to be made right now. In time, your little granddaughter will may let your daughter know what the best solution is. Maybe when she asks about her father, your daughter could explain without a lot of the details where he is and when he will be back. Then, if seeing him seems to be a big issue for your granddaughter, your daughter could take her and supervise the visit. But if she's content with the answer, she could wait for his release. I think kids need to have a voice, but she's so young. I'm not sure.
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Thank you, Mountainspring... this helps.
And I think you're right... maybe there's no need to make a plan right now, but just play it by ear.
Sometimes I get so caught up in trying to determine what is the "right" thing that I miss the simplest things...
there's no rule which says "thou shalt have a definite plan" :)
My daughter and I both have such mixed emotions about this whole mess...
while it's sad that this little "daddy's girl" will be separated from her father, we're both relieved to have him out of the picture for a time. He has been quite a "wild card", to say the least, and abusive at times to my daughter.
Thanks again for your thoughts... it strikes me just now how peaceful it can be to just admit - "I don't know" what is best.
All the more reason for prayer.
With love,
Hope
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Dear Hope,
I am so sorry that you and your family are going through this. I probably would take the child to see the father b/c honesty( age appropriate) is best for kids. Kids "know" most of what is happening, anyway.The worst thing is for the child to feel as if there is something wrong and to be told otherwise. I would explain it all with a perspective. that she could understand. I would particularly say that Daddy made a bad mistake but loves you very,very much . If you are not honest, children are more likely to get "crazy" explanations in their heads and be afraid to ask about them
Love Ami (((((((((((((((Hope))))))))))))))))))
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Thank you, Ami... and thank you for the hugs, too. This one is hurtful... and it opens up a whole other can of moldy, old worms from way back when my childrens' dad went to jail for his sexually abusive behaviour. It's not a stabbing pain, but more of an ancient ache. (((((((((((Ami))))))))))))
I guess I struggle with not knowing how much a 3 1/2 year old might understand, so it's hard to tell what might be age-appropriate in this case. But as Mountainspring suggested - letting the little girl lead the way in asking what she wants to know is likely best.
No sense in trying to answer questions which haven't even been asked.
And you are absolutely right! I agree that the worst thing would be for her to be told that nothing's wrong when she knows in her little heart that there is. Thank you so much for your help. I'll be talking with my daughter tomorrow on the phone and will pass these things on.
With love,
Hope
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If it were me I would not want to expose my little girl to the jail environment. They can write letters back and forth and talk about the situation. It's good to be honest, but I would be afraid of "normalizing" the dad-in-jail-lifestyle.
Pennyplant
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Part of the consequence of doing something that lands you in jail is that you don't get to see your young children.
Do not subject them to this just so that the guy "gets to see his children".
They will do better without being in that environment.
Dandylife
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My vote is no jail for anybody that little.
Too confusing.
No explanation will remove trauma.
It's traumatic to see armed guards,
a cold clanging hostile buzzing environment.
All the suppressed heartbreak, anguish
and anger.
Far better for her to make special drawings
to send Dad, and meanwhile, to have GOOD
stable men in her life as role models. Shouldn't
be hard to find a kind man who'd take an extra
interest in a fatherless 3 y/o.
I'd put the energy there. I think it's just too much
sadness. She'd seen people crying, weird communication,
suppressed stuff leaking out around her....
I can't visualize how it'd be good for a 3 y/o.
Could be wrong, but I'd sure read up on it first.
(Well, just did.... http://www.google.com/search?q=young+children+visiting+prison&hl=en&start=20&sa=N (http://www.google.com/search?q=young+children+visiting+prison&hl=en&start=20&sa=N))
and now I'm not sure.
Many posters on forums, etc., say it's important to take them.
Other links said whether a prison is family-friendly or not can make a big difference, i.e., whether they have to sit in a chair and look across a table or whether they can interact, etc.
I am sure you and your D can do good reading. My other hesitation was how abusive was he to your D, and does she feel he's safe to be in her D's life? That would play into such a decision too.
Poor little sprite. If she misses him and asks for him, the consensus seems to be...take her.
(But only after the mother has been on her own once, so she can check out the visiting room, etc and know what to describe for her little girl to expect.)
Hops
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Hi, all
I'd like to hear your views on this, if you wouldn't mind opining :)
My granddaughter is 3 1/2.
She and her mom, my eldest, live far away and are facing an issue about which my daughter has asked my advice.
Daughter is divorced now from her little girl's dad and they have joint custody.
Dad is a mess... drug problems and more. In fact, he's about to go to jail for one year.
Elisia (my granddaughter) has witnessed one of his arrests and knows that daddy went to "jail" for awhile at that time.
But this time it's for a year... and my daughter's question is - should she take Elisia to see her Dad while he's there.
I honestly don't know.
My youngest is 11 now and with some of the things we've had to manage in our family, I hate to see a little one need to deal with something like this at her tender age... and yet I don't really know how much of it she'll even comprehend.
Might it be even worse for her to have her dad disappear from her life for so long at this stage?
In the meanwhile, my daughter plans to pursue gaining full custody, but I don't think she'll try to prevent him from seeing her when he gets out.
The only thought I have is - at least Elisia is not in school yet where she'd potentially hear some awful stuff if she spoke up about the situation.
So - what do you think? Many thanks!
Hope
Hi, Hope.
As someone who is currently working in a minimum security correctional facility, I think I can share my opinion. Do you know what type of facility your ex-son-in-law will be going to? The reason I ask is that some facilities allow for inmates to interact with their children while other facilities require a glass partition with no physical contact allowed. If he's being sent to a minimum security prison similar to where I work, I would encourage interaction between father and daughter. That way, your granddaughter gets to see her father and, possibly, the addiction counselors there can help him understand how his actions impact his daughter. If, on the other hand, the correctional facility has the glass partitions for visitors, your granddaughter may not understand why she can't go to her daddy and that could be stressful so it all depends on the type of correctional facility.
Bones
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(((((((((((((Hope)))))))))))))
I'm so sorry you and your family are going through this. I would let your grandaughter lead you with the info she is able to understand. From a child's perspective ( My own growing up ) I was lied to and I knew something was wrong. It left me struggling my whole life with my instincts a battle with myself of what I "felt" and intuitively knew to be true and what was told to me. So I'm big on telling children the truth in an age appropriate way. I can identify with your struggle on making the right decision. Sometimes if you just let it be for a bit, it gives "God" and or the universe a chance to step in and lead the way or you to the answer. We get so caught up in doing things and responding in ways that we know and are familiar to us , (the only way we know). That sometimes there are possible answerers that never occurred to us if we give it a little time to work its way out. as for me i would bring her to a child therapist and let the therapist asses the situation and than you would have more info to make a decision.
Love, Tweety
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Hops,
Thank you for your thoughts. Yes, it makes good sense to me for my daughter to check out the visiting-area conditions before making a decision. As far as his level of abusiveness... my daughter feels confident that he would never harm his daughter.
I disagree, because personally I'd place zero confidence in an addict, but my "say" in that matter is minimal... can only offer counsel when invited. I'm only thankful that she told me about this situation and didn't try to conceal it.
Hi, Bones,
It's good to read you! I didn't realize that you're working in a correctional facility. Sorry, I have not even begun to catch up on reading here... but that is good news - I hope!
No, I don't know what type of facility he'll be in. His sentencing will be end-August, but because this jail term is the result of a plea-bargain, he (and my daughter) have advance notice of the outcome. I'll ask her whether she has more details. I hadn't even considered the option that he may actually receive counseling while there... thank you for pointing that out! Oh, that would be so wonderful. Lord knows this little family needs help.
I'll find out as much as I can about the surroundings and post back with an update when possible. Thank you for your reply!
Tweety,
Thank you. I'm trying to keep the positive aspects of this in the forefront... the opportunity for my daughter to go on with her life without his constant access to her. With the geographic distance between us, I barely know my little granddaughter, but talking with her on the phone I can sure see that she's a clever girl. Talks up a storm, curious, a bit bossy... a real no-nonsense kiddo :)
What you've said here about letting it be for a bit... you've got it. I do get caught up in responding in known, familiar ways... and this does take me back to another time which I'd really rather not re-visit. Thank you. That's why I wanted to ask here... and get the varied responses... to get past any mental blocks of which I may not even be aware. I don't know whether or not my daughter would have access to a child therapist in the area, but I'll ask re: the possibility. Maybe the court system that ex-son-in-law is going through could arrange some sort of counseling for my daughter and granddaughter... I know they do that when there's a divorce.
(((((Tweety))))) thank you so much.
Thank you all so much.
I feel better... more "up to snuff" regarding various options, and definitely not so alone in this.
With love,
Hope
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Glad I could help what I can, Hope.
What state is this situation taking place in? I might be able to research the state to see if they have a similar program in their correctional facilities similar to what is here in Maryland.
Bones
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Glad I could help what I can, Hope.
What state is this situation taking place in? I might be able to research the state to see if they have a similar program in their correctional facilities similar to what is here in Maryland.
Bones
Bones, it's Michigan. Thank you!
Hope
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Bones... and everyone,
Spoke with my daughter today and the place where he's to be incarcerated is a very small-town county jail.
She says that the only visiting facilities are tiny cubbies, complete with glass partition and phone.
Definitely doesn't sound like a place for a little girl.
And she brought something else to my mind, which is even more concerning than the physical surroundings there...
her ex-husband is apparently in denial re: his sentencing and still thinks that the judge will let him off to do only weekends for his jail-time. This young man is quite the character and we're thinking now that his own emotional state once he's there may not be appropriate for a young child to witness.
So she's going to play it by ear and try to at least provide a phone card for him to use to speak with Elisia on occasion.
I will definitely be praying alot.
Thank you all so much for your thoughts and help.
With love,
Hope
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Bones... and everyone,
Spoke with my daughter today and the place where he's to be incarcerated is a very small-town county jail.
She says that the only visiting facilities are tiny cubbies, complete with glass partition and phone.
Definitely doesn't sound like a place for a little girl.
And she brought something else to my mind, which is even more concerning than the physical surroundings there...
her ex-husband is apparently in denial re: his sentencing and still thinks that the judge will let him off to do only weekends for his jail-time. This young man is quite the character and we're thinking now that his own emotional state once he's there may not be appropriate for a young child to witness.
So she's going to play it by ear and try to at least provide a phone card for him to use to speak with Elisia on occasion.
I will definitely be praying alot.
Thank you all so much for your thoughts and help.
With love,
Hope
You're welcome and thanks for letting me know.
Can you let me know the name of this small-town city jail so I can GOOGLE it and see if they provide substance abuse counseling there? A small-town city jail might not do the same things as a state-run correctional facility.
Bones
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Hi Hope,
Just looking in here now but wouldn't have had any idea of what to suggest anyhow. I'd feel confused and torn in the same situation, I think.
At least now, you and your daughter can both relax a little because the glass and phone thing and his emotional state don't sound like a good experience for your grand daughter. I imagine that makes the decision much easier.
I will keep your family in my thoughts and prayers. Wish I could offer more.
Sela
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Hello Hope,
My exh did time in county jail along with the biggies too. I personally do not think that it is a place for young children.
I went a few times and I hated it. It made me feel creepy and depressed.
This is just my opinion. I feel that he put himself there. There were choices and this is one he made. He took the chance, risk, whatever and he lost. Not at my kids expense.
I had choices also and it was not to bring my children there. He would have to do his time alone.
For his D's sake I think that there is nothing wrong with phone calls but I still get disgusted when I think of the jail (life) visits.
I don't know Hope. I just didn't want my kids to be on the phone behind glass looking at their dad in an orange jump suit.
My children did not go. My children have no contact. I stopped everything. They are now 20 and 22 and well rounded. Your GD will be just fine knowing dad is in jail even for what he did.
It's going to come from mom on how well they will handle it.
I was always honest they knew where he was and why. I always believed that kids can handle more then you think they can and want honesty about what happened (on a child's level).
It's a personal decision.
Just sharing with my experience. One I didn't want my kids to share. He was on his own with this.
Deb.
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Hope,
And I forgot. My kids were asked in school where their dad is. They asked me way before what they should say. I said what do you want to say? You didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. If you want to say he's in jail, go right ahead. If you don't want to then you say what you are comfortable with.
They said he was in Calif. When they got older 7th, 8th grade they told good friends the truth and you know what? The other kids did not care and started telling their own hardships.
Your GrandD will be fine. Promise.
Deb
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First off, I apologize!
Dandylife, Pennyplant, CB...
Not sure how it happened, but I'm definitely out of practice with reading these threads and I just now saw your posts here for the first time. Partly due to having the posts listed in reverse order, I think, with the newest at top.
Anyhow, I'm sorry - I appreciate your helpful views and am so glad to read them. Thank you!
Pennyplant,
what you said about not normalizing the "dad in jail" lifestyle...
I needed to hear and will definitely pass that on to my daughter. I just don't know how she will handle that part of it... she's so different from me and this sort of life has become so "natural" to her. She just sounds so very... coarse.
Even speaking with her on the phone, her talk is sprinkled with "curse words"... talk that we never had in our home. And yet she did spell out the word "jail" once when Elisia was in the vicinity. It's just... weird.
I suspect there's alot that's been normalized in her home that I'd find abnormal.... thank you, Pennyplant.
Bones, I sent you a pm with the name... and thank you again.
Normally I enjoy researching and Google is my favorite tool, but in this situation I am feeling a strong need to keep my distance.
It's as though I can report to my daughter giving her other peoples' views, but can't get personally invested.
There are many reasons for this, I know, but not one of them do I care to examine right now. My daughter is extremely N'ish... and I expect she'll do whatever is convenient for her at the moment. The fact that she and I are able to converse these days hasn't changed that a bit.
Sela, thanks for your thoughts and prayers.
Deb,
What you've expressed here is my own gut feeling, which I seem to be bound and determined to "rise above" so that I can remain neutral. I don't feel too neutral at the moment.
The whole idea disgusts me, too. I'm glad that you were able to exercise your own choices in the past and I have to say I think that I would have handled it the same way. It's wonderful to hear that your children were able to grow into well rounded young adults! Congratulations, Mom :)
In some ways I wish Elisia was a bit older, so that she could have more say about her feelings and wishes in this... and yet I'm glad she's young enough that it may not have so much impact (theoretically)... and all the while I think - the way he is, maybe it's best all the way around that he have no contact with her. None. I've been amazed throughout the past few years that my daughter has allowed him to continue his visitation...
but it's none of my business.
Thanks for this, Deb "Your GrandD will be fine. Promise."
Holding that thought!
Love,
Hope
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Hi Certain Hope,
I don't have any new advice but just wanted to tell you I think things will work out okay for your granddaughter. Your daughter's idea of the phone card may work out well for now. I think your granddaughter is lucky to have mom and grandma working hard to make sure she's okay.
((CH))
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CH, I truly hope that your daughter is able to shield Elisia from the jail experience. I'm in western New York and we have lots of prisons and jails here. On the one hand, I think it is a life-line for these guys in jail when their families remember them with care packages and letters and visits. On the other hand I am struck by the way this lifestyle becomes a culture and society all its own. I don't know what the lacks are that would cause this lifestyle to be so "comforting" and affirming to the families. Probably things I can't even comprehend from where I sit. But it seems to offer a kind of structure that some people must not have in their lives. It doesn't effect everybody this way. But I would guess that a child might be one of the vulnerable ones. Elisia should be spending time at the park or the movies or the library, not in a jail waiting room. For some reason, I feel very strongly about this. I know people who work in prisons and jails. I handle mail headed to prisons and jails. The clues I've picked up in this way have influenced my opinion, I guess. I like how Deb has described how she handled things with her family and that her children have grown up strong and uninfluenced by the prison experience of their father. That is the #1 goal here.
Pennyplant
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((((((Mountainspring))))) thanks. Just talking and thinking these things through a bit here on the board is helping me... and I think that my speaking to my daughter with some of the thoughts y'all have given here is helping her. I have a definite mental block when it comes to giving my daughter counsel on anything... kinda my little version of ptsd reaction from her wild and wooly teen years, I guess. All this is working together to ease that and help us build a relationship on fresh ground. I'd like to have a relationship with my granddaughter, too... can't quite imagine how that'll be possible at this point, but it's bittersweet to have her on my mind and heart now, more than ever.
Dear Pennyplant, I can visualize what you describe of this sub-culture, but I can't understand it either. Maybe this genre(?) forms as the families bond together sorta like military families do... just because of the common element, I dunno. It's definitely not a place (mentally or emotionally) where I'd want my family to get too cozy. I agree with you and appreciate so much your expressing your strong feelings on this... I'm finding it's a bit of vicarious enjoyment because I still have somewhat of a disconnect where my daughter and granddaughter are concerned. Afraid to feel too much, I think, because my daughter - all on her very own - is enough of a wildcard to bring confusion and disarray into my granddaughter's life. That's a hard truth which I cannot deny. Elisia is going to have enough hurdles just because of that.
When my daughter called me on Monday, she'd just received Elisia from her ex-in-laws' home, where E had spent the past 3 days.
That home, as I understand it, is basically a flop house for any and all derelict relatives to live in the basement and the in-laws themselves are "swingers". I've never met them.
E's face was swollen and my daughter thought - mumps? - and took her to the ER. Apparently she has a molar coming in and there was some infection in the salivary gland, so amoxicillin was the solution... she's okay now. But my daughter recently had some health issues of her own, for which she was hospitalized and required surgery, and now is on the mend. Her response to this recent "emergency" was -
"I don't need this now!!" :? Same thing she said years ago when I called her to tell her that my grandmother had died. "I don't need this in MY life now." Yeah huh... she's a character.
Love,
Hope
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I think the answer would have to be based on how involved the daddy is in his little girl's life.
Lots of children visit their fathers in prison, unfortunately.
If this guy's a bad guy, doesn't care about his child and would provide no positive influence.... I don't see why dragging her to the prison would be a good idea, kwim?
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Hi...
Thank you, Lighter... and sorry, I've been delinquent here. Too many irons in the fire, I think.
I should have posted back and let everyone know - Bones did some research on this for me and discovered that this small county jail where Elisia's dad will be incarcerated does not allow visitors below the age of 14.
They are quite close, from what my daughter says... she refers to Elisia as a "daddy's girl".
I am just hoping and praying that phone contact will help ease her concerns and... of course I hope that he will clean himself up and be able to turn over a new leaf. We're not sure yet whether or not addiction counseling will be mandatory in his case, but I sure would think that oughtta be an integral part of it!
Thanks again.
Love,
Hope
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Gee.... I don't have enough information about visiting people in jail and prisons to know whether I should feel outraged (that children under 14 aren't given the opportunity visit their parents) or feel blessed that some horrific option has been taken off the table.
On one hand I'd think that a small county facility wouldn't be such a bad place to visit a beloved parent. My heart sure goes out to your GD though.
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Gee.... I don't have enough information about visiting people in jail and prisons to know whether I should feel outraged (that children under 14 aren't given the opportunity visit their parents) or feel blessed that some horrific option has been taken off the table.
On one hand I'd think that a small county facility wouldn't be such a bad place to visit a beloved parent. My heart sure goes out to your GD though.
I know what you mean! In all my efforts to remain neutral on this whole thing, I have flip-flopped more than a fish out of water.
But I was very, very relieved to hear that she won't have to see any of it up close and personal...
oh, for a chance to just be a kid!
Thanks again, Lighter.
Love,
Hope
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Certain Hope:
Was your ex N the father of your children.... or another marriage? I'm having a bit of trouble keeping up.
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Certain Hope:
Was your ex N the father of your children.... or another marriage? I'm having a bit of trouble keeping up.
Lighter,
No, I had no children with ex-N. We were married for 3 years.
Before that, I was married for 15 years to my childrens' father. He cannot have any contact with them because he was guilty and convicted of criminal sexual conduct.
I have trouble keeping up, too.
Hope
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Out of the frying pan and into the fire........... with an N.
My T keeps telling me everyone's lives aren't this hard.
I can't understand why some are and some aren't.
I'm about over blaming the victims, at least I'm over everyone finger pointing the victim bc it's easier and not so much trouble as holding the perps responsible.
You went through a terrible process in each of your divorces, no doubt. You stood your ground and you did had to be done.
What got you through and what did you learn from the experiences?
If you don't mind my asking?
btw... I don't consider this highjacking since it's your thread and you seem to have solved the original dilemma; )
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Yes, into the fire... I was ripe for the picking, so to speak.
I don't understand why some are and others aren't either, Lighter... much of life is a mystery to me and I'm only now beginning to wake up with questions that I shoulda asked years ago.... seeing things I shoulda seen back then. Why didn't I? I didn't know how.
I'll have to get back with you about how I fumbled my way through the divorces... at the moment, it all seems too surreal.
My own little directive right now is to "feel" these things as I express them, otherwise I'm just blowin hot air.
At the moment, I don't think I'm capable... but thank you for asking. It's something I need to walk through, with my fresh new awareness. Just not right now. I'm still in the parent-zone.
Thanks, Lighter... and no, it's not at all hijacking :)
Love,
Hope