Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: steve on July 16, 2007, 12:17:51 PM
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I have been thinking about this whole narcissist nightmare that I had to endure. At the same time I realized that a great deal of my co-dependence has been because of repressed narcissistic tendencies. Most likely repressed because of feelings of guilt and shame. And who do you think used those tools? Of course, the Narcissist in their weakness. They are such and I am different. Below is an exposition of the traits of NPD and my reply to each and everyone:
Has a grandiose sense of self-importance.
Absolutely not, I recognize my nothingness but at the same time value myself above all others.
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
Absolutely not; success and power are for those who seek their value from others. Fantasies of brilliance, beauty, and ideal love are just that, fantasies. I am realistic as to my limitations, but that does not prevent me from using them to the best of my abilities.
Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by other special people.
Yes I am special and I am unique. But others are also the same. Yes some people understand me better than others, but such is life.
Requires excessive admiration.
I do not live for others.
Strong sense of entitlement.
I am entitled to what I can possess, and that just depends on my preferences and abilities.
Takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.
Yes, I aim to achieve my own end, but I also realize the value of cooperation. But I realize it as a value for me, not others. It is what defines me, my character.
Lacks empathy.
Yes I can feel other people's emotions, but I at the same time realize that it is their feelings and not mine. How I act will depend on my choice and my objectives.
Is often envious or believes others are envious of him or her.
I am never envious of others because that would require me to value myself relative to others. I choose instead to value myself as I see fit and do not need affirmation from others. Envy is the domain of the weak. Yes, others may at times be envious of me, but that is just a result of their weakness.
Arrogant affect.
This makes no sense to me. Why should I be arrogant? I would only be if I depended on other's putting a value on me. No, I may be pleased if they value me highly, but at the end of the day, I am the only one who decides how I value myself.
Enjoy!
Steve
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Much enjoyment Steve, thank you :D
maybe all I have to do now is stop feeling so: afraid, or curious, or responsible, or involved....whenever I see envy, dislike, arrogance, fear in others - in response to me. Maybe I don't feel those things any more really.....maybe when i see those things in people, their reaction to me, maybe at the end of the day I just feel sad. I remember a woman in a hotel taking an instant dislike to me. I couldn't work it out (like it was my responsibility to work it out!) and I wonder what it was she saw, or thought she saw. Who knows. Who cares! 8)
No, I may be pleased if they value me highly, but at the end of the day, I am the only one who decides how I value myself.
I've been knocked down many times for trying to voice this. It's worrying how many people I've met who would say that is arrogant, to value yourself against your own standards. As though it's against the prevailing culture: only other people may judge your value. "You think a lot of yourself don't you?" "Yes i do." :D
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dear Steve,
How did you get such good confidence? Warmly Ami
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Ami:
It was on sale at Walmart!
Just kidding, we need a sense of humor after all because this whole affair is so comical.
That courage that you speak of lives in us all. We all have the ability to finally decide what is important and what is not important. Unfortunately we have been trained, like obedient dogs, just how not to behave. Selfishness is seen as a sin. And if you do not obey, either you will be punished physically or emotionally. I trust that emotionally is more damaging and longer lasting.
We have been taught to think of others first. Why? What a stupid concept! Whoever believes that we have a limited life would have to be a fool to follow such a doctrine. Everyday that I place myself behind others is another day that my life has been wasted. So why have we been taught this? Simple, because those calling the shots are better off.
In my case I was meant to feel the following:
My father is superior to me and always will be
I am not to do anything to emberass the family
I owe a debt for the expenses that my parents incurred in bringing me up
I am nothing unless I can show that I am more successful than others (except my father of course)
We have to behave "good" in the community because their opinion matters
Religion
State
Choose your poison. It is all the same. Either you live for yourselves or you live for others. I choose myself.
Steve
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Are you married or have a girlfriend? JUST KIDDING Ami
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Are you married or have a girlfriend?
:lol:
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This self awareness stuff works. Two offers in one day. :)
Thanks for making me feel good, and yes, i am single. Be happy! Thats all that matters.
Steve
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Steve,
What did you do with Steve?
:)
It's wonderful to hear you and see how you've broken out of that trap.
Kudos.
Hops
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Hop, I find it arrogant. Is it a cultural barrier? am I not understanding what i read? Please, friends explain to me. Sorry Steve. English is my second language and I might be not understanding but I find your post arrogant. Like you find an excuse for everything. Probably I am mistaken. Please, dont get offended. I am just trying to understand.
God bless you.
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Lupita:
All my life I have been walked on. People has used me and taken advantage of my sensibilities.
Now I have decided to change. I assure you, that I am not arrogant.
But, then again, what you believe is entirely up to you. It does not matter one bit to me what you think. I don't mean that to be mean, but instead, it is the entire point of my argument. All that matters to me is me and what I choose to value. If I choose to value your opinion, then it would matter what you thought, but it would only matter because I let it be so, and in the end, I am still the center of my concern.
I hope this helps, if not, I can elaborate further,
Steve
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. "It does not matter one bit to me what you think."
That sounds mean. I post here because I value the opinion of these people. These people have helped me a lot. And I come and read, and read. And I always thank them for taking the time to write me.
Yes, I would like more leaborations. Why? Because I would like to develop some of what you have. No at the point where you are that you do not care, but yes, I would love to be able not to suffer for what other people do or think. Because at the end I cannot control what others think. I can only control what I think.
So, yes, I think I can find a lot of help with you. I do not want to suffer anymore.
What did you do to change? How do you develop a sense of self confidence that it does not matter what others think? I wish i could do that.
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Lupita:
It is not meant to be mean. In fact, I am a very gentle person. I know how to respect others and ask the same in return.
Respect is one thing. I do not wish to impose on other people because I recognize in them a certain dominion as I recognize that dominion in myself. However, I am respectful because it reflects my character. I value being a decent person because it serves me. If I valued it because it serves others, then I would be doing nothing more than living my life for other people. So, yes, you can be a decent person and have all positive attributes you wish. But do not lose sight of the fact that you are doing it solely for yourself.
When we start to think of others, we enter in the realm of submission if we put their value or their measure above our own.
Simply make yourself the pinnacle of your decision making. Bring out from yourself that which serves you best. Work with other people because this also serves you. Do "good" if you like, but never disguise it as altruism. Always realize that you are doing it for yourself. Do not be a hypocrite.
We live only once! So lets not waste it on others or fantasies of serving others. Be honest with yourself and if it means doing good for others, then simply admit that you are doing it for yourself. Bring that buried YOU out from the slumber of your past. Let it shine as has no other YOU shined before. You are worthy enough because you are your own judge. No one has any say as to how you measure yourself , other than yourself.
I hope this helps,
Steve
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Lupita, maybe this will help....
Confidence versus Arrogance
There is a difference and it comes in the attitude. One can be extremely confident and not at all arrogant.
Dictionary.com defines confidence as follows:
A feeling of assurance, especially of self-assurance.
Arrogance, on the other hand, is defined as: overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors.
Note the difference. Nowhere in the definition of confidence do we see the words “overbearing” or “pride”,
nor does it describe an attitude towards others.
Confidence is an attitude about one’s self and arrogance is an attitude directed at others.
Steve,
This seems both wise and honest to me: "If I choose to value your opinion, then it would matter what you thought, but it would only matter because I let it be so, and in the end, I am still the center of my concern."
Also this:
Do "good" if you like, but never disguise it as altruism. Always realize that you are doing it for yourself. Do not be a hypocrite.
I think that substituting God for the words "I" and "yourself" in these statements also gives a great Christian perspective on these things. Thanks for the food for thought.
Hope
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Dear Steve,
Rock on . Love Ami
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Steve,
Hi. Nice to meet you. Glad to hear a male voice.
My husband grew up in an N family. But he doesn't feel overtly victimized by it the way I do. He doesn't have any traumatic memories or painful clashes that he can recall. I don't know exactly how to describe it. His feelings were manipulated and his voice was skwelched (is that a word?) but he felt like he was part of an elete family. Like he was blessed. Maybe a little of the golden child syndrome here. The both of us have just come to understand the role that N has played. He is now afraid that he is a N or that maybe he has N tendancies. It is difficult for me to see how someone so gentle and ammiable and easy can be an N. But he also has tremendous difficulty with empathy, with really loving other people and with things that look like problems (they destroy his happiness). Lots and lots of denial. Can you shed any light on this? Sounds like you are trying to put the question for yourself to rest.
--mof4
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It is difficult for me to see how someone so gentle and ammiable and easy can be an N. But he also has tremendous difficulty with empathy, with really loving other people and with things that look like problems (they destroy his happiness). Lots and lots of denial. Can you shed any light on this? Sounds like you are trying to put the question for yourself to rest.
--mof4
I am interested in this aspect as well. Thank you, mof4!
Steve, if you could comment on this... I'm wondering whether what a woman may perceive as "difficulty with empathy" may not simply be "normal" male behavior. My husband will say, for instance, "don't let it get to you." Well, he grew up in a houseful of women - the eldest - with his mother, grandmother, and 2 sisters. I'm guessing he had plenty of opportunities to not let "it" get to him... and so has determined to not allow an outpouring of emotion to disrupt his equilibrium. Anyhow, looking forward to your remarks... or those of any male here on the board! Thanks :)
Hope
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Mo4:
Oh yes, sweet emotion. How for so long I have let you sleep. Or more precisely, how I have stuffed you in the back of my mind not letting you emberass me. For, I was not supposed to feel, I was a man! No, only my N-father was supposed to feel and above all, he was only supposed to feel good. Therefore, whenever I sensed some difficulty, I was expected to bury all my concerns and help to solve the problem. Not only was my measure (value) my father, but even worse, so were his feelings.
But feelings are very powerful and if we cannot experience them properly, perhaps it is better off that we don't experience them at all. Perhaps this is what your husband is suffering.
Expressing emotions is not allowed because the N-person does not want it. They have difficulty enough in their own life, they do not need such a low creature as their child bringing them down further. Therefore, suppress, suppress, suppress. So I learned and perhaps your husband also.
Now take the N-person out of your life. I mean, make their welfare totally unimportant. Make yourself the sole kernel of your decisions. From this point of view, then approach the N-person. Trust me, they will look very different. How you choose to behave with them from this point on is up to you. Just keep yourself firmly in front.
The major problem with ACONs is that we have learned to be to someone else's property. If you are owned, then you behave as your owner demands. Well, we are used to this conditioning. So why not just change owners. I no longer belong to my father, no, instead I now belong to me. Simple as that.
Good luck,
Steve
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Dear Steve,
You are a voice that I need. I am glad that you are here.
I hear you saying"To thine own self be true and you will not be false to another." I .also, hear you saying,"You shall know the truth( about yourself) and the truth will make you free."
I am getting to a similar point with my H that you are getting with your F.
I am facing truth. Honestly, it is so heartbreakingly" hard but after the pain, there is a peace. With my H, I am facing that he has many N traits. I "never saw" them b/c I would not face them . I was too busy trying to make myself better so he would love me.
Now, I am looking at him and I see him. However, I feel a sense of detachment. I have looked the truth right in the face and I am still here. I thought that it would kill me.I am not dead .So, I can rebuild myself from here- with honesty like you are doing
Keep Writing, Steve Warmly, Ami
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Steve,
Wonderfully helpful! Thank you for describing my husband to a "T". Really helpful. I made him read it.
Do you feel your feelings now? What helped you to break out of the "supress" conditioning? Do you still associate with your father? Do you have to practice the skill of taking ownership of yourself back or was it a "stake in the ground" kind of decision for you? Are you married? If so, has your wife struggled with the stuffing of feelings to solve problems?
Sorry to ask so many questions. You just said in words exactly what I have been struggling against for so many merky years.
--Mof4
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Just wanted to add a side note hear......a little (but kind of big) pocket of pain.......
Last night, I went to a concert with my husband and a few friends from his work. He interacted with them so freely. I saw a side to his personality that I have never seen before. I was a little surprised by it and I am sure that the feeling was apparent because after he saw my ever so slight facial expression, he kind of reigned himself back in. I am not sure what is more painful to me. The part where he looks like a stranger or the part where he feels like he has to reign it in for me. Either way, feel like we don't know each other or trust each other in some ways.
It is also painful because of his secretive history: hiding his feelings, hiding his addiction, lying to me about so much. Is he lying to me again about who he really is? Is he unable to be his real self because I am his " owner" as you put it, Steve? (pretty sure he transferrered his pink slip from his N mother to me) Don't even know if he knows.
I am just a little unsettled by it this morning. Wondering what is "normal" for our situation or wondering if I am seeing another red flag......
mof4
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Mof4,
This is only my impression... along with a disclaimer that I struggle with "what is normal??" (alot)...
Personally, I'd be more concerned if he were not able to tune in to and recognize your feelings/expressions or - if he did sense those and yet blithely carried on. Nobody should "own" anyone, of course, but accountability within marriage can have many positive effects, I think.
At least he's aware... and I see that as a step toward possible deeper intimacy between the two of you.
I can't really explain that further except to say, thank you for posting about this because there's something floating at the edges of my consciousness about this that I'd sure like to get into full view. I'm sorry it hurts ((((((Mof4)))))))
Love,
Hope
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S+Safe
Has a grandiose sense of self-importance.
Absolutely not, I recognize my nothingness but at the same time value myself above all others.
This is very clear. I wonder, do you really value yourself more than all others or do you
care about yourself more. Do you believe that you have more value that Mother Teresa or
people who invent cures for diseases? I think the idea of valuing oneself either more or less
than others is dangerously what N's do. However I think it is so important to love oneself,
to care about ones well being enough to be ones own best self-advocate, and to enjoy ones
self, ones traits, etc... but to value oneself more? As in, I choose myself as more special than
anyone else? Please enlighten me if I am not getting what you are saying. I try to do everything
I can to give to myself now (after years of not) but if it came down to who lives or dies, I think
I would value at least a few others above myself, since they seem to be making a more powerful
far reaching contribution than me.
Yes I have more value than any saint or any scientist that has ever or will ever exist. Why? Because I am all that I get. I can not lead their lives so why should I care that much about them. I can only lead my life and I need to start putting more value where it is deserved, and that is squarely with me. The narcissist is the one who needs to live through other people, the one who can not separate himself from others. I can do that and do it to the extreme, if you will. However, i am not deluded to think that I am superior to others. There is a difference between valuing yourself most and thinking you have the most value to others.
You speak about caring for yourself more than others. Is not caring and valuing the same thing? Why should I value others more than myself. Are you speaking of looking at an objective measure of personal accomplishments? I am not, I am speaking of the ultimate value of oneself, loving oneself. There is nothing wrong with this. It is just a reality that many of us have been forced to abandon. Why? Because, the narcissist wants us to value something other than ourselves, namely him. And when we do that we feel sick inside. Now, just accept that this is so, and tear off those shackles. He has no right to take your freedom, but you are entirely right to remove the connection.
Strong sense of entitlement.
I am entitled to what I can possess, and that just depends on my preferences and abilities.
I might add, with possessing of whatever usually comes additional responsibility.. so that
for me, I feel entitled to what I know that I can take of well. I do see that N's usually feel
entitled to everything they want, no matter what.
Yes, I said that it depends on my preferences and abilities. With preferences I choose what I want and with abilities I obtain what I am able to obtain. Its not utopia, just reality. There are two opposing forces and the battle is really an internal one between wants and abilities. But I choose not to get caught up in delusional wants like trying to keep up with the Jones. That part is narcissistic because it places you relative to others, hoping to improve your image. Also, narcissists do not realize the limits of their abilities and most likely the limits of their wants.
Takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.
Yes, I aim to achieve my own end, but I also realize the value of cooperation. But I realize it as a value for me, not others. It is what defines me, my character.
Such a positive choice.
Sometimes I think that in the end, the more important thing is to have GOOD VALUES
than to value oneself. I know they are both important., but if I had to choose one, I would
choose good values because I would make a more positive contribution that way.
There is nothing wrong with choosing good values. And there is nothing wrong with making a positive contribution. But who do you think you made those choices for? Did you make them for the good of the cause or the good of yourself? Think about it honestly. I mean, you are not out there working for all the causes, are you? You have chosen certain causes to work for, have you not? Why have you chosen those causes? Is it not because they are dear to your heart? And is your heart not a part of you? So, have you not chosen for your own good?
When I speak of the value of cooperation I am speaking of the value that comes to me. I realize others may also get positive out of the relationship. That is a side benefit. But for me, really, all I can hope for is how it makes me feel and that may include how I value someone else's feelings as well. But how I value them for me, again. Again we are forced not to be hypocrites. So, we live in a world where kindness can create value, but to be totally honest, we must admit that we are creating it for ourselves.
So where does love fit in? I do not know how you describe your love, and I can explain how I describe my own. Nonetheless, I realize it in myself and act accordingly. However, I will also not sacrifice myself for my love and be the slave of love. No, I respect it as a feeling and can only hope that I and my spouse have the strength, respect, and consideration to make it more healthy, however that may be defined. So my character exists to create value for me and it appears that the laws of nature reward cooperative behavior. Therefore, all is not lost. A positive person will always draw positive results.
Steve