Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: tempesta on July 18, 2007, 12:36:35 AM
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My Sister is a combo of both of these two things. It has been going on for years but the last 5 years are hell. My Daughter who has studying Physchology. has been for years has come up with this dx concerning my Sister, her Aunt. It is sad cause she has caused her husband who in the last year has become her ex, and her Daughter who is gonna have a baby this fall, and a Son who has turned 16, hell. I am there for them as much as I can be. Her kids think of me more as their Mom then their own Mom. She is so vain and self centered it makes me sick and sad inside. She has lost a ton of weight which has just caused her symptoms to become even worse. Our older brother and sister won't have anything to do with her. Of course she doesn't see any of this as being her fault. My Mother who has passed away years ago is the one that started this all. She favored her and babied her and now we are all paying for the damage is has caused. I just try to help as much as I can. I listen to her and am there for her and them. I try to drop hints to her, as to what she is doing, but it is always way above her head. I cannot go out with her cause she thinks every man is in love with her, and that every woman envys her. Some days I am able to blow it off and feel for her, and other days I could just slap her and would love to just tell her to snap out of it, geeeez. I guess we all have crosses to bare and do the best that we can. All we can do is love them and pray that things will get better. :? Am I making any sense? :roll:
Cluster B: Dramatic or Erratic Behavior
Histrionic (Hysterical) Personality: People with a histrionic personality conspicuously seek attention, are dramatic and excessively emotional, and are overly concerned with appearance. Their lively, expressive manner results in easily established but often superficial and transient relationships. Their expression of emotions often seems exaggerated, childish, and contrived to evoke sympathy or attention (often erotic or sexual) from others.
People with a histrionic personality are prone to sexually provocative behavior or to sexualizing nonsexual relationships. However, they may not really want a sexual relationship; rather, their seductive behavior often masks their wish to be dependent and protected. Some people with a histrionic personality also are hypochondriacal and exaggerate their physical problems to get the attention they need.
Narcissistic Personality: People with a narcissistic personality have a sense of superiority, a need for admiration, and a lack of empathy. They have an exaggerated belief in their own value or importance, which is what therapists call grandiosity. They may be extremely sensitive to failure, defeat, or criticism. When confronted by a failure to fulfill their high opinion of themselves, they can easily become enraged or severely depressed. Because they believe themselves to be superior in their relationships with other people, they expect to be admired and often suspect that others envy them. They believe they are entitled to having their needs met without waiting, so they exploit others, whose needs or beliefs they deem to be less important. Their behavior is usually offensive to others, who view them as being self-centered, arrogant, or selfish. This personality disorder typically occurs in high achievers, although it may also occur in people with few achievements.
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Welcome, Tempesta.
Thanks for sharing your story.
Your neice and nephew are so extremely lucky to have you in their lives.
I'm sorry for the realizations about your sister, but isn't it a relief in a way to have them. To know you're seeing things accurately.
I'm glad you've found this board. There is so much wisdom and generosity here. You will be supported.
I hope you have 2-D support too. You need to take care of yourself so your life doesn't become all about your sister's.
best,
Hopalong
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Hi, Tempesta:
I think my sister is Borderline Personality Disorder, with some other (not so charming) Cluster B disorders presenting as well. N and anti social tendencies, perhaps?
I'm a little beyond "suggesting" things to her gently, lol.
I don't think that'll get your neice and nephew anywhere, either, just for the record.
She ticks me off and once she draws first blood, as she did just this afternoon, I let her have it. She usually accuses me of doing something she's doing, herself. I'm usually a bit sorry I strike back but..... I just can't help myself in the last few years.
Is this where you're headed?
Not sure but..... it makes no difference.
I don't think my sister hears a word I say. She just feels more persecuted and right, IMO. Your sister will probably continue down the path she's on, no matter what you do. You're N and N are lucky to have your maternal support, in any case.
I sometimes feel (ashamed) like I'm picking on an emotionally retarted person, for speaking the truth, then remind myself that I do it for ME, not for her. I shouldn't feel guilty and I can't just fix her, though I would if I could.
There was something so satisfying about getting the last word with her. I don't think I've ever done that before.
Of course, now I'm dreading seeing her again: /
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Good for you lighter! Yes there has been a few times she has made me so mad that I have said something, but she snips at me back or changes the subject. Or like always cries, ugh. She sees herself as always the victim, ugh! :roll: Like everyone is picking on her. She has a bf that she has had even before she was divorced. I have heard stories about him, he thinks he is something. That is fine. At least when she is with him she leaves me alone, lol!
Lighter....I can relate to what you are saying, thank you for your response. It helps to know I am not alone.
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Thank you for your reply hopalong. I responded to your reply but I don't see it here. Wonder what happened. Sometimes that happens on boards. Again thank you, it means a lot.
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You're not alone.
My sister used to cry and carry on..... get so torn up with supressing tears she couldn't speak, that sort of thing.
She also used to fill her arms with glasswear and do stuff that took the spotlight off the hard questions coming at her.
She also has said that we're all too stupid to understand her LEVEL of understanding, which is that she knows everything and can't be bothered to attempt to school us.
She thinks she's Mother Theresa and yet.... she has absolutely no empathy for any of her own family members.
She'll take her families money to pay a downtrodden friend's medical bills, without asking about spending that money. All her friends are struggling, odd people she can easily feel superior to, btw.
She once invited a pedophile to stay in her home, while she was on a trip away, and made her husband accept his being there.... even after he/her husband walked in on this guy making out with his step daughter on the sofa. Some kind'a crazy, huh?
When her husband questioned him about the scene on the sofa, he said he was drunk and thought it was his wife he was messing with. The wife was upstairs asleep, btw.
Eventually the guy ended up busted BIG time and hanged himself in a park. Awful awful story, that. He raised daughters of his own who he molested, before getting his hands on step daughters. My sister went to his funeral to support the wife, who was busy playing the role of aggrieved widow, oddly enough: /
Why does my sister invite this kind of craziness and FORCE it down her husband's throat? She recently picked one of the oddest of this bunch to be the Gaurdian of her child, in case anything were to happen to both parents. She's been busily smacking her husband around emotionally for not agreeing to name this odd person as gaurdian also. She can't see how crazy the choice is..... or how crazy her trying to bully him into the decision is either.
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Welcome tempesta,
My sympathies are with you, having to deal with your sister. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to say, "Listen! I've had it! You are now on your own! I have a Life to Live and I want to live it!", then walk away?
But you can't--oh the burdens of obligations! and the sadness for people who are unable to manage their own lives!
My thoughts are with you!
Love Izzy
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Hi Tempesta,
Welcome to the board!
Your sister sounds just like my NMother. And if it wasn't for MY aunt (her sister), I'm not sure I would've made it through. So keep on being there for the kids. It really does help.
If you read my posts, you'll see just how much my aunt has helped me. I kinda have her up on a pedestal because she, like your sisters kids, is more like my mom.
We've been soooo close through out my life. If not for her, I really believe I would not be on this earth. I cannot stress the importance of those kids having you in their lives. They need someone to "HEAR" them, to let them know it's not their fault that their mother is an N. Without that, they feel it's their fault mom is not giving them the love & nurturing they deserve. Hats off to you, Tempesta!! Alot of aunts would've walked away!
Bigalspal
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Dear Tempesta,
I had a mother like your sister. My grandmother saved my life. the best you can do in this situation(IMO) is 'save" anyone who is vulnerable and can be helped. It is probably"hopeless" to help your sister.
You are not alone. We understand. Keep writing and sharing. You are a hero aunt Love Ami
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Welcome, Tempesta
I had an aunt with some of those characteristics. The drama was continuous and any attempts to curtail it wound up with me exhausted and drained. It's wonderful that you're there to offer your sister's children some sense of stability and continuity, as you are able... they'll definitely need all the help they can get! I'm sure you'll be able to gather some great info and encouragement here as you share with the members. Glad you're here :)
Hope
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Tempesta,
Welcome to the board - you'll find lots of support and help here.
Izzy said "Wouldn't it be nice to be able to say, "Listen! I've had it! You are now on your own! I have a Life to Live and I want to live it!", then walk away?"
Well, I eventually did that with my Nsister, and NMum at the same time, 13 years ago, after having 'family therapy' sessions where it became so clear to me that they'd never change. It was incredibly hard, but it needed to be done. My sister was the Golden Child in our family, and it sounds like your sister was the Golden Child in yours, too.
In the end you are more important, and if you can help your sister's children, that's great too.
Janet
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Janet,
Would it be ok if I asked you a question.....
When you decided that your family would never change and that you walked away, what did that look like? Was it NC or did you find balance with continued interaction?
--mof4
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Mof4,
I don't mind you asking at all!
What happened was that, when I was 31, after YEARS of trying to make my NMum behave normally, and not getting anywhere, with the support of my soon-to-be husband, I decided to start setting boundaries. I told her that, if I visited her and she insulted me, I would 'allow' (count) three insults, telling her each time when she'd done that. After the third one, I would leave. The only time I actually tried it, I was in her house about two minutes. It was so hard to actually follow through with it!
She contacted me during the week and said that *I* (not *we* or *the family*) needed to get family therapy 'so that you can learn how to fit into the family better'. That's what she thought family therapy was.
So, to try to keep the peace (again) I found a therapist, and started sessions, on my own, as that was the way the therapist said it had to be. I had about 6 sessoions on my own with him, during which time I constructed various letters to my Mum, Dad, brother and sister, setting out why I was unhappy, and asking them to meet wth me on a particular date at the therapist's, for a 2-hour session, twice (on two consecutive nights). After the last session on my own with him, I sent the letters.
The two sessions were video'd by the therapist( I knew about this, the others were only told as the session started, and my Mum and sister were NOT happy). The two sessions discussed my anorexia, my Mum's affairs, my Dad's alcoholism, etc. Pretty touchy stuff - most of it, we had NEVER discussed as a family before.
After the first session, we each went our separate ways. The second session, my Dad didn't turn up - apparently, he and my Mum had had a dreadful row after the first session, and my Dad refused to be 'humilated' by the affairs being discussed again. This instigated their divorcce the following year(which was apparently 'all my fault' according to my Mum).
At the end of the second session, it was clear as day that they would never change, never accept that they were anything other than a 'perfect family' and that I was just lying, whilst also being neurotic, mad, evil, sinful, wicked...you name it. Even the therapist seemed a bit out of his depth, and just kept looking from them to me, saying 'What are you going to do, if they stay like THIS?' He'd obviously expected a better outcome. Possibly, he'd not come across raging N's before.
I left the session knowing I had to stop seeing my Mum, at least.
But I found that she 'infected' all of the others, by saying to them (and all of my extended family, and her friends, and their children, several of whom I'd grown up with) that they had to choose either HER or ME. As so often happens, they chickened out, and all except my Dad chose her.
It was the most difficult decision I've ever had to make. I went from having a network of family (however dysfunctional, they were still my family) to having just my husband, and his relatives. I cried for weeks. I couldn't concentrate on my work. I felt really empty.
They tried contacting me sometimes (still do, annoyingly), but gradually, I've come to realise that I had to do that for my sanity. I see my Dad, and phone him, but our relationship is a bit distant - but then we were always kept apart, even when I was small, so I have to be grateful for the relationship that I do have with him.
I don't think it would have been possible to have had 'limited contact' with some of my relatives, and not my NMum and, as I later realised, NSister. They control everyone in the family, and the vitriol wouldn't have been worth it. I admire people who do try to still see parents when they know they're an N, but mine was simply too dangerous. I see that now ...I wish I'd seen it before I was in my thirties. I'm 45 now, and still healing.
But at least I'm healing :D :D :D :D
Janet
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At the end of the second session, it was clear as day that they would never change, never accept that they were anything other than a 'perfect family' and that I was just lying, whilst also being neurotic, mad, evil, sinful, wicked...you name it. Even the therapist seemed a bit out of his depth, and just kept looking from them to me, saying 'What are you going to do, if they stay like THIS?' He'd obviously expected a better outcome. Possibly, he'd not come across raging N's before.
Dear Janet,
You are really cute. You can find humor amidst the pain( above) Love Ami
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janet,
Thanks! You have given me a lot to think about. We are in the middle of making some of these same decisions. Realizing that it will NEVER change. It is so hard! I bet you cried for weeks. My N's are the inlaws and I have already cried so much over the whole mess. I am so sorry for the loss, so happy for your strength and safety, and glad for your relationship with your Dad. You are strong to have gone thru that much family therapy. Man, I would have run for the hills!!
Seems like your N can be a little nasty. Mine is so nice! Painfully pleasant! How do you cut someone off who is so nice and does philanthropic things for neighbors and community? It is a crazy-maker! Thanks for lending me perspective.
--Mof4
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Mof4,
"Seems like your N can be a little nasty. Mine is so nice! Painfully pleasant! How do you cut someone off who is so nice and does philanthropic things for neighbors and community? It is a crazy-maker! "
Well, the trouble was, she WAS nice...to everyone else! That's what is so crazy-making. No-one else understood why I was being so 'nasty' to her. She described it to others as 'we have an argument that's sooo hurtful that I can't discuss it [how convenient!], but now she won't apologise for being so rude to me, and so unreasonable'. Of course, I never got to put my side to people , and the 'argument' idea just wasn't true, unless you take the fact that we hadn't got on for about 20 years as 'an argument'!
N's have a habit of splitting into nice/nasty, depending who they're 'playing to' - and I believe it is a LOT like acting. They know what they're doing. If you manage to catch them at it, they look really sheepish.
But if YOU know the in laws are unbearable TO YOU, they're unbearable. Doesn't matter if they're great with OTHER people, because you're not 'other people'.
I like the bit in your post about 'your N's can be a little nasty'! Me and my husband call them 'the Undead'. Totally without feeling.
I did cry, not just for weeks, but for years, really. It still gets to me now, sometimes, but not as much as it did. It still needed doing, though, so I wouldn't have changed my decision. I just wish I'd had this board then...but the internet wasn't around then (1990).
Janet
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I want to thank you all so much for your warm welcomes and replies. I am so sorry for not getting back to everyone sooner. It is hard in the summer cause we cater a lot. Actually I was just at an Art Festival today, and have to be there tomorrow as well to cater with my hub and in-laws. It is an all day thing and I am very tired. People came from all different States and bands played it was nice until you know who showed up, ugh. I was just thinking hmmmmm lot so people, ok where is she, lol? Then she waltz's in with her bf all dressed up, well above everyone else like always. It is kind of embarrassing because I think you can dress trendy for a 40 something lady but there is such a thing as age approperate. Even the little gal I had helping me from our Store that is only 18 said just that about my Sister, ugh. This young lady with me is a very pretty little thing with blond hair and blue eyes. So no, she in no way envies my Sister like she would like to think. Ohhhh and by the way, I am far from ugly and am not fat, but do I go around acting like an idiot? I in no way walk into a room and wonder how many men are watching me, ugh. My sister is consumed with that. Beauty comes from inside, this I have always believed.
Oh and ty for the kind words about having Aunts that were good to you. Makes me feel good. I will never leave them. They need me. I keep my nephew under my wing. He tried to kill himself a year ago. He just turned 16. My husband gave him a job at our grocery store. Everyone loves him there and he gets a lot of attention. Also my niece who is 20 and gonna have a baby comes in when I am working to talk to me. She is so angry at her Mom she doesn't even want her mom at her baby shower that I am planning nor does she want her there when the baby is born. I wish the two of them would work that out. I am trying to stay out of the middle of it. I can understand my niece's anger though. Get this. My Sis says when you plan her shower don't have it on this day of that day cause I am doing this and that. Can you imagine? This is why the kids get mad at her. It is always about her and she cannot have her plans ruined. Well she doesn't let it.....she always does what she wants. She even went on a hair show on her daughter's 16 birthday.....something I would never have done.
Ty again for all of your replies, you are so kind. It helps to know that you all understand. Like I said I am sorry I am so late with this. I have been a member for at least a year here, but don't always have the time to respond, especially in the summer with my job. Take care all and God bless.
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Oops it shows me as only being a member since Febuary of this year. I know it has been longer, I was under another name, I think. Who knows, I am tired tonight and am not thinking so clear, lol. Calgon take me away! :lol:
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This is regarding my mother, rather than my sister...
but I will make this statement first...I was reading about C or NC with the N. I had to think to myself, "ok, first of all, I wasn't raised by Narcissists, so for me to say anything, it will make me look "holier than thou" but I have gone through a mentor/mentee relationship with one, so I do know something of where these hurting people are coming from.
Secondly, once I gave myself permission to post to this thread, I have to ask all of you...C or NC...what is the REASON WHY you'd WANT to have intimate contact with an abuser in the first place? What does it do for you? Do you really not like yourself that much, to consistently put yourself into those positions over and over again? I guess I don't understand the mindset of "self-punishment" because, really isn't that what it would be? It's like, knowing their is a dog that bites you every time you turn a certain corner of the street, yet, purposely going back and letting it bite you repeatedly, all for the sake of being "friendly" with "all creatures"...I just never have gotten that.
I do think it's more on the victimized person's end, that they want to keep contact with an N. Personally, a narcissist can do with/without you, either way. They could care LESS if you want them around. They are in this only for THEMSELVES, not to keep a relationship with you, since they do not even GRASP what RELATIONSHIP is or feels like.
Just something to think about. Don't qualify abusers in the same category with healthy-thinking and behaving people...you WILL get burned every time.
As I was reading all of the posts here, I just wanted to give some input into my situation as well. My biological mom was and is more PARANOID than narcissistic. Everything I tell her, she will find the "can't do" in it. A typical dialogue follows. Anyone relate?
Me: "Mom, I finally got a job and I'm so excited! I'll be setting appointments for a guy named _________."
Mom: "Yeah...how much is he paying you?"
Me: $10 per appointment."
Mom: "But that means that if you don't get ANY appointments for him, you don't get paid."
Me: "Oh, I am not worried about that. I've done this before."
Mom: "Yeah, well, he may SAY he's gonna pay you, but you don't KNOW that for sure, right?"
Me: "Mom, this is a good, reputable company. I've worked for them before."
Mom: "It may or may not be a good company...that's not what I'm saying. But if you work all that time for him and you don't get paid, THEN what are you gonna do? See, you have to think of these things, Laur"
Me: "Well, I'm not worried about that. It is not a fly-by-night sort of thing. My boss is the district manager in the place...don't you think he has a reputation to keep up and he'll make good on that?"
Mom: "Look, I'm not gonna argue with you about it. It's your life...I'm just saying "be careful...you know all the other things you've gotten into that haven't worked out."
Me: "Well, I HAVE to make this time work out, Mom. I'm SICK of living in poverty."
Mom: "Where are your kids while you are working?"
Me: "I'm working from home."
Mom: "Ohhhhh...well that's a GOOD thing...cause you don't want to leave your kids alone and go out to work. Something might happen. People are strange these days."
Me: "yeah. I know."
Mom: "ok, well I gotta go. I'm glad you got a job. I hope this one works out for ya. We'll see ya, ok bye."
(As a result, I battle times of such PARANOIA myself about almost EVERYTHING. My children laugh at my irrational fears and tell me "you are so paranoid, Mom!" I almost want to HATE my mother for it, and I probably WOULD if I wasn't a follower of Yah and if it didn't seem to feel so JUSTIFIED to me in this crazy, dangerous world.)
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I can say that I go back or want to go back to the abuser(my N mother) for several reasons. It is very complex.(I will deal with my H at another time)
Much of it has to do with my own self concept.I gave up my power at a young age to my mother. I lived in the world that she constructed(her rules, her thinking, her perspective). I abdicated my own thinking. I abdicated the trust in myself. I am ,now, seeing that she is an N. I have had my head up my ass since I was 14. I am sitting here in a "new" world--- the real world. I am just starting to feel real. I am starting to see myself as real and other people as real. it is like going from being an alien to a human. It is a huge shift.
Part of me does not want to change. Part of me wants her side of the story to change. I want her to turn "good' and love me. Then,I will be fixed and whole.So, that part of me wants to go back to her and have it end like this.
Part of being real is realizing that you are alone. I NEVER wanted to face this. I think that I would have panic attacks over facing this. I did not feel like I could cope with life, alone. I guess that I really could not b/c I was in a dream world,before.
Another scary thing is that I am responsible for myself. This is ,also panic attack material.
The other reason might be a 'valid' one. I want a connection with my mother b/c the
intimacy" of the mother daughter relationship. However,of course with an N, you cannot have it.
I think that there are more reasons that a person goes back to the abuser. I will write more when I figure out more.
Tempesta, it is nice to hear your voice. You sister must be a 'Gag me with a spoon" person. I can see her ,in my mind's eye". I am sorry that you have to have a sister like this. Also, her poor kids bear the largest brunt of it.
They are so, so lucky to have you for an aunt. An aunt can be life saving. You are doing a very,very important thing with them, Tempesta Love Ami
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Since I wasn't physically abused by my N and since the psychological stuff was blind behavior...I think I have benfitted from keeping contact. Although moving in with her for 8 years maybe have been overdoing it a trifle.
I wasn't cleverly anticipating anything, but one opportunity the continued contact gave me was to experience and fully integrate the reality of not getting what I want, and then refiguring out what's wonderful in my life anyway. Railing about it for years...and then, accepting it...and then, being at peace with it...and then, not even wanting it any more.
I feel more "lined up" with reality inside. When I set boundaries or show compassion or both simultaneously, it feels as though I am acting instead of reacting. I think she has been the practice field for the most difficult endurance experience of my life.
I know myself and like myself better than I did when I moved in years ago. In the middle, it was often the opposite and there were some terrible struggles. But now, I have more inner peace. So, for me, contact had an answer to a question I didn't even know I was asking.
Ahh hindsight. It's different for everyone...
love
Hops