Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on July 19, 2007, 10:10:18 AM
-
Yesterday I read a letter my dad wrote, shortly after our recent visit to my
parents' home, far away.
We were only there for 2 days. He's bothered by the fact that there was so
much he'd wanted to "do" and to "show" us - me - and obviously he's lonesome.
But here are some facts about my dad's idea of sharing...
... showing me all the things he's made out of wood and telling me of all the money he could have made on these items if only he weren't so generous and gave them away to people
... giving me copies of / telling me crude "jokes" (his idea of humor often revolves
around the marital relationship and always places the wife in a poor light.)
... repeatedly offering me alcohol (I quit drinking 2 years ago when I realized that I didn't have any brain cells to spare.)
and... this one's the clincher to me right now... squeezing me into a spot from
which I can't escape to fill my face with the scent of whiskey and my ears with tales of my mother's nonsense.
He wrote: "Your mother has had alot of medical problems the past few years. We spend hundreds of $ on pills and doctor calls."
The very next line: "Next time I see you, I would like to have a private discussion about things with you. In German, 'unter fier augen'."
Ugh.
The thought gives me chills... deep physical revulsion. As far as I am concerned, the only four eyes which need to meet on this topic are his and my mother's.
This shoulda happened almost 60 years ago and thousands of other times along the way. I feel absolutely disgusted at the prospect of discussing her with him now. I wonder whether he's seen the note she has taped inside her bathroom medicine cabinet... a definition of dementia as a "loss of intelligence..." And then I wonder whether he's ever seen anything at all...
he's certainly never seen me as anything other than an extension of himself.
And now, when I've broken free of so many of the methods he and she both taught me to use to get by in this life - it's ridiculous and obnoxious to me that he'd even suggest that our 4 eyes should meet privately to discuss "things"... for what purpose? If he hadn't soothed himself with alcohol and been so passively two-faced as to mock women with poor humor through all these years, maybe he wouldn't be in such a situation now. I feel like he let her run the home and now wants to whine about it. Maybe she's losing it. Maybe she needs to lose it. Each one of them consistently implies that the other is losing it. I don't know - far as I'm concerned, they both "lost it" many years ago.
So now I feel violated... by words on a page. I feel invaded and lied to and used and manipulated and coerced... and I haven't even responded to him.
All that - I've managed to stir up in my own heart just because of 3 little German words which carry an entire philosophy within them... one of denial, passive-aggressive indulgence, impropriety, and... force. It's like being forced to choose sides, to be used as a dumping ground, to disappear yet once again so that he can fill me up with himself.
My mother wrote, too (they do this every week) but that's a whole other story.
I used to let these big envelopes pile up until the guilt overwhelmed my dread of reading them. It's definitely time for a new approach.
Thanks for listening.
Hope
-
I've never heard that phrase before--under four eyes. That is a very intimidating concept. It implies no boundaries. Burn the letters. Don't read them anymore. Set yourself free from them.
Pennyplant
-
CH,
So hear you on the -feeling like you need to dissappear- thing. My mother used to instigate "discussions". I hated it!! It felt so confusing and so much like a trap. Felt like my feelings and needs were never seen, let alone respected. What does your father hope to accomplish with all of these letters and another discussion? Does he think he is trying to make a better relationship with you? and he is using control tactics to do it? Does he ever listen to you? It sounds so one sided and unfair!!
I hate to suggest that people shouldn't talk to their fathers. I still have this child-like hope that it could some day be better. But it sounds unbearable.
--mof4
-
CB,
Thank you so much. It's as though I'm trying to feel this whole mess one last time...dealing with whatever leftovers from it might prevent me from handling the rest of life appropriately, without all the shadows.
When I read this last night, I was very angry, so I guess it must have hurt... but I don't know how to allow myself to feel that hurt without giving in to it and reacting wrongly.
I can see both sides between my Mother and Dad... always have... and always have felt torn. Sometimes I feel like - hey, at least my Mother doesn't rag on him the way he does on her. But actually - I think it's only her denial of anything less than perfection which prevents that. And she does belittle him in her own unique way. The whole situation is so loaded with denial and projection and miscellaneous other psycho-crap that I almost wish they HAD sent us copies of their letters/notes/battle plans so that I could have openly said YEARS ago - y'all are nuts! Get away from me.
Over those years, Dad has sent me numerous "documents" evidencing her obsessive compulsive nature - grocery lists, hand drawings of the way she slices meat - stupid, stupid. He has disrespected her greatly behind the scenes and all the while makes out to be the great, generous, humble man.
She is a pain in the neck. But so is he. They both lie to themselves and to each other. I'm trying to imagine telling them this while still honoring them.
My husband says, "you could use this as an opportunity to minister to them."
Maybe he's right. If I can just get past the anger of knowing that my Dad writes these letters on Sunday afternoons after enjoying a "wonderful Divine Service" (every single letter he says this) and consuming a few shots and beers.
ugh.
(((((((CB)))))))
Love,
Hope
And thank each of you who are writing, I see another response as I'm trying to post this.. but I have to read only one at a time or I think my head will explode. (((((((())))))))
-
I've never heard that phrase before--under four eyes. That is a very intimidating concept. It implies no boundaries. Burn the letters. Don't read them anymore. Set yourself free from them.
Pennyplant
Pennyplant, Thank you for putting full expression to my feeling about that phrase. He's used it with me before, but I never stepped back to explore why it brought such a reaction from me. Last night it hit me full force.
When I read your post, the chills returned. That's it.
It's intimidating because it's meant to be.
No boundaries... exactly. No where to run. Back against the wall so he can punish me for her crimes by filling me up with his poison... with all the reasons why he is so far superior to her? With his sense of having earned sainthood by tolerating her all of these years?
I think I should suggest that if he needs to "vent", his pastor would be the appropriate 2 eyes and ears. Mix a bit of reality in with the religiousity. (and there's my anger again)
While we were there on this short visit, he tried to get me alone... wanted to take me to meet his pastor, take me with him to the little small town market to meet all his "girlfriends" who help him do the shopping now that my mother has relegated that duty to him. I said no. Repeatedly. No, I do not want to.
I did not want to be "shown off". I did not want to enter his little fantasy land. I couldn't stand to hear any more of his hardyharhar with the ladies. Obviously he didn't get the point.... but then he didn't ask me why.
Then his truck broke down and it became a moot point. Divine intervention, imo.
I was puzzled for a bit as to why this particular instance felt so devastating, but recognized that it was that specific phrase which set off all the alarms in me. Thanks again for helping me to see why.
Love,
Hope
-
I used to let these big envelopes pile up until the guilt overwhelmed my dread of reading them. It's definitely time for a new approach.
Buy a shredder.
mud
-
Buy a shredder.
mud
LOL...
thanks, Brother Mud... I needed that.
There's great relief in being able to feel these things and express them, but I sure don't want to get stuck there.
This is the sort of humor which helps :)
Hope
P.S. I am having a hunch that honoring them means telling them both once and for all, in an open letter, that I will not be reading any more of their stuff.
-
Hi CH,
I'm so sorry your parents treat you that way. How awful to have to dread getting the mail.
Isn't it funny (weird funny), how many of us on this board have/had a passive father & an NMother?
I guess they go hand in hand. My stepfather (who I called Dad) was the same way. I know he loved us kids, but could not/would not stand up to my NMother.
He drank, too. Died an alcoholic. By all accounts, he was a fine caring hardworking young man until he met my NMother. She just destroyed him.
Sounds alot like your story.
I hope it all works out for you, CH.
Love,
Bigalspal
-
I don't think you can begin to express your own needs,much less get them met in all your parent's neediness. That's a relationship breaker, IMO.
I'd say run, go NOW! but..... you may need to have contact with them, for reasons of your own.
I can't find much value in relationships that require I be witness and conspiritor ONLY.
If there's no room for me to be me, have needs and get a couple met at some point, I'm at a loss for finding reasons to keep those kinds of relationshis in tact.
Maybe if you put some boundaries in place and withdraw a bit, with love, they'll notice you're there for more than just their own selfish needs?
-
It's horrible when writing is used to slam and spear and spike the reader...
in such personal ways.
I do love the idea of you writing a boundary to both of them.
I'm sorry, Hope. So very toxic.
Hops
-
Dear Hope,
Use this situation as a way to take back your own voice. Trust your gut responses to this "violation" and express what you will and will not do with your parents.
You will feel stronger.You will reclaim a part of yourself that they stole from you . I want to thank you for all the love and support that you give me--BTW Love Ami
-
Hi again...
I'd like to give this another try, because it's been on my mind and heart both
all day, here and there and everywhere.... and I feel that I can't move on until this is sorted.
Gonna start back where I left off earlier. Many thanks for your patience with my method here... it's the only way I know to put thoughts and feelings into order.
Mof4, I don't know what my dad is trying to accomplish, but thank you for this! If I'm going to discuss this with him at all, I think that's the first thing I should ask. I feel so stupid for not even being able to think along the simplest line of reasoning when under the haze of all this emotion. I used to blame the emotions and try to shut them down so I could see clearly. All that resulted in
was silence. So thank you again! Takin notes this time and that will be my question to him if I decide to write back (not sure on that yet).
Thanks, S&S ... you've helped me see - about this: "If you feel dread then he is violating you or all the times he did are descending on you."
I think it's the latter... and then that combines with past impressions of N ex-husband, the way he'd back me up against the wall... and then that all co-mingles until there's this one giant N in view. But my Dad's not NPD. He's just ignorant and unskilled in emotional matters and... 86 years old. I have to say that if I ever called on him to help with something he would be there.
It frightens me that I can so easily forget all the good because of this sort of grisly flashback which relates more to N-ex than to my Dad... ? Obviously, I'm confused about this, but the feelings I have against my father relate more to wishing he had been able to deal better with how my mother ruled the house. I think he's just weak and misunderstands what the Bible says about honoring
his wife in marriage. For what it's worth, I CAN give him my views on that topic, along with appropriate Scripture references.
Bigalspal, Yes, passive is right! I can only recall a handful of occasions when my Dad has actually put his foot down about something. Passive-aggressive would also be accurate... in a mild sense (if that makes sense). Dad's always been a very hard worker and very old-fashioned. I've often thought that he must have a special squadron of angels watching over him to have escaped
dire consequences from all that drinking. I'm so sorry about your Dad... about that whole situation. It is very sad. I'm so glad you're able to share here... that's how we all learn to grow through it. Thank you!
Lighter... your post was my stopper earlier today :) Thanks!
I read this: "I don't think you can begin to express your own needs,much less get them met in all your parent's neediness."
and then this: "I can't find much value in relationships that require I be witness and conspiritor ONLY."
and I blinked hard.
Looked back at it several times today. Still blinking.
It never dawned on me that I should be expressing my own needs... to my parents?!! ... let alone getting them met??!
That's how new all of this is to me. Only with my husband and kids and on relatively few other occasions has this become my new m.o.
Yanno, I think I need to get out more!
No kiddin, I read this and thought... Hmmm... what a novel idea!
And then this: "Maybe if you put some boundaries in place and withdraw a bit, with love, they'll notice you're there for more than just their own selfish needs?"
Now that gives me hope :) Helped me move all that stuff from my head to my heart and tie it together. I haven't applied these things with my parents... my new skills, so to speak. Only here at my own home and practicing with others, little by little, but where they are
concerned, I can see that I'm still reacting out of the "old me".
Not making much sense of this right now, but it'll come out. What stopped me up short earlier is now becoming the gateway to a new possibility.
Thank you so much!
Hops and Ami,
Thank you both for your support!
I think what I'm recognizing here is that my Dad really has no reason to know me at this point... because I haven't shared anything of my self with him.
Since I haven't allowed him to see who I am (who knew who I was? I was too busy surviving) I really can't blame him for using his same old lines.
Also, I just read this week's letter after picking it up from the p.o. and he just talks about his woodworking, etc.... same old thing, just his own stuff, but that does me no harm... unless I choose to take offense at his lack of interest in me. Before I cross that bridge, I feel that I must at least try to share myself with him... no strings attached. All this time... I have only written very rarely, so basically he's just carried on this monologue for the past 6 years with no feedback. I feel like what happened is I reacted to alot of old images in my mind and this thing tried to take on a life of its own. I feel like I know my Dad alot better than he knows me... he has an 8th grade education and
is not the most literate person in the world... so often he comes across in a rather crude manner, but the drama in this whole thing is in my mind... not in his words... and I want it outta there :)
So - my tentative plan is to write to each of them individually and seal each letter separately. That oughtta give them both pause, for starters. I'll ask Dad what is his goal in having this private discussion and tell him that he'll have to
do that in writing AND that I don't want to hear or read anything negative about my mother. If he has issues with her, he should take them up with her, face to face. I don't know how much I'll give of my own take on this whole thing, but I would like to "introduce" myself to this man while he's still on this earth. It just seems like the right thing to do. I'm thinking that they didn't steal anything from me near so much as they neglected to put something in. What was missing was just the most basic training of how to relate as a human being in a world of other human beings who need to connect with each other instead of competing against each other and playing off each other.
Thanks again, everyone... so very much!
Love,
Hope
-
Hi again...
Lighter... your post was my stopper earlier today :) Thanks!
I read this: "I don't think you can begin to express your own needs,much less get them met in all your parent's neediness."
and then this: "I can't find much value in relationships that require I be witness and conspiritor ONLY."
and I blinked hard.
Looked back at it several times today. Still blinking.
It never dawned on me that I should be expressing my own needs... to my parents?!! ... let alone getting them met??!
That's how new all of this is to me. Only with my husband and kids and on relatively few other occasions has this become my new m.o.
Yanno, I think I need to get out more!
No kiddin, I read this and thought... Hmmm... what a novel idea!
And then this: "Maybe if you put some boundaries in place and withdraw a bit, with love, they'll notice you're there for more than just their own selfish needs?"
Now that gives me hope :) Helped me move all that stuff from my head to my heart and tie it together. I haven't applied these things with my parents... my new skills, so to speak. Only here at my own home and practicing with others, little by little, but where they are
concerned, I can see that I'm still reacting out of the "old me".
Not making much sense of this right now, but it'll come out. What stopped me up short earlier is now becoming the gateway to a new possibility.
Thank you so much!
For what it's worth, I just gave my mother a rundown of my reality.... and she was stunned and didn't understand why I hadn't told her about it sooner. She's been very helpful ever since. Maybe your parents need a good gershlappity from you to bring them out of their own little selfish worlds of placing blame and feeling martyred?
I can't imagine your parents behaved this badly during all your struggles. TELL me they were more supportive of you during your divorces! Have you ever been able to ask them for understanding and help?
-
Wonderful idea to write them separately, CH...
First advice my earliest therapist gave me was to start having lunch with my parents separately.
When I first brought it up they looked at me as though I'd grown another head.
It made a huge improvement in the dynamic though. My mother had less grounds to say "WE" referring to the dual-parent-creature-with-four-legs...which was largely what had smothered my chance of a free relationship with my father. Aaarrrgghh.
Glad you're making that move. Knowing them as individuals APART from their dynamic, will really help, I hope.
Hops
-
Wow, CH, this is great to see right here the evolution of your thought process and feelings. Please keep us posted on the future results of what you decide to do. It will be a good learning experience for us too!
Pennyplant
-
Dear Hope,
I can see how you put your thoughts together -- step by step. This is a great "working" together of the voices on the board-. The Bible says,"There is safety in many counselors". Doesn't that apply here very well? Love Ami
-
Hey again,
Lighter... "a good gershlappity" I saw this last night just before I shut down the computer and grinned :)
It's wonderful that you gave your mother that reality rundown and she responded so well.
Sometimes I think it's like we individuate ourselves once early on (in adolescence?) and then somehow blur back together with parents (at least in their minds... and maybe in our own, too, to a certain extent) as we have children of our own. That seems to be what's happened with me.
Earlier this year I gave them one of those gershlappities re: my own religious beliefs (with differ greatly from theirs, with which I was raised.)
I got silence from my mother and numerous articles from dad which pointed to the fact that my belief is heresy.
In all fairness, after years of general silence, that was a doozy of a topic for me to pick on which to "communicate".
So I read this last night and then went to bed... and cried. I don't know how it began, it just did. My eye was watering and suddenly I was crying. Talked with my husband and cried some more... because my parents have indeed been supportive (in their own way - financially and physically) through my divorce struggles. It's the emotional component that's always been missing... missing in them and in me.
It's been missing in me because I didn't see it modeled. I can only assume that their debilitation is based on lack of modeling, as well.
The fact is, my way of reaching out for emotional contact was destructive and rule-breaking (by Christian standards).
My mother and dad value the rules too much to do that, so they never learned. Everything in me that did reach out to others - - - my mother views as weakness. And yet I know that she envies that in me. That must have put her into quite a bind.
Well, my husband says that he's come to terms with his own mother by simply saying, "She did the best that she could with what she knew." He doesn't try to fix her... or convince her... that she's okay. He doesn't return her calls, either.... .
I kept up communication with her for some time, because I highly prized her willingness to delve into the realm of emotions.
Very recently, though, I learned that's not all it's cracked up to be. She dropped her email correspondence with me - cold - and sent my husband's birthday greeting through my email, with an icy note re: her being unable to locate his email address and perhaps he could read it on my computer. No "hello"... no "thank you"... no "I'll reply to your last letter soon..." Nothing. And nothing since.
Last night, I said, well... I wanted to feel these things (just not all at once!!)... and now what? What's the purpose? And the answer was,
so that I can hold the entire picture in view at once and stop splitting the good from the bad, ponging from one to the other depending on the circumstances of the moment. An integrated view. God help me maintain it.
And thank you, Lighter, from my heart... for giving me the gentle push in that direction.
Thank you Hops and Pennyplant and Ami...
It's good to have these discussions someplace other than within my own head. Don't think I'd best write their letters after only 4 hours sleep, but soon. Nothing huge and heavy, just some clear statements - with love. Because I do love my parents.. I just don't "need" them to be anyone other than who they are. That's a need I can't afford to nurture.
Maybe I can share with them a bit of my own "evolution", if they're interested. I dunno.
And yes, this board works together in wonderful ways :) I've learned so much here... and I wouldn't trade that experience for anything.
Thank you all.
With love,
Hope
-
Hope,
I see you react strongly to the triangulation game that your dad is playing.
Also, the disrespectful attitude toward your mother.
These are abusive behaviors. Of course you are upset.
It's not that he's "weak". oh, no. This man is abusive. That's why you feel sick around his behavior. Your insides are telling you so. You can't ignore it.
It's gone on a long time, but it's never too late to call out bad behavior.
I'd just say outright next time he does it, "Don't pull me in to your argument with mom. Talk to her." Walk away.
When he says something disrespectful about your mother, say, "I find that statment disrespectful of mom. I don't want to hear you talk like that." Walk away.
He'll get it if he has any brain cells left!
Love
Dandylife
-
Hope,
I see you react strongly to the triangulation game that your dad is playing.
Also, the disrespectful attitude toward your mother.
These are abusive behaviors. Of course you are upset.
It's not that he's "weak". oh, no. This man is abusive. That's why you feel sick around his behavior. Your insides are telling you so. You can't ignore it.
It's gone on a long time, but it's never too late to call out bad behavior.
I'd just say outright next time he does it, "Don't pull me in to your argument with mom. Talk to her." Walk away.
When he says something disrespectful about your mother, say, "I find that statment disrespectful of mom. I don't want to hear you talk like that." Walk away.
He'll get it if he has any brain cells left!
Love
Dandylife
Hi Dandylife,
Yes, my reaction is still quite strong, but my feeling of being torn by his triangulating is easing.
A large part of my own reaction was self-centered, in that I have parts of both of these people within myself. In other words, the part of me that's like her, that identifies with her, is what was reacting so strongly. Once that is settled within me, I can respond appropriately with statements such as you offered here... "I find that statment disrespectful of mom. I don't want to hear you talk like that."
You see, before, all I could come up with was "That's not right!!!!". Then I could spiel off several pages of judgmental rant, proceed to tear that up and pitch it into the trash, and absolutely nothing got accomplished. This has been my reaction to nearly every conflict in my life. It's what I learned from my mother.
But I've been so internally enmeshed with each of them (unbeknownst to them, likely) that I didn't know how to resolve any of it, so I just carried BOTH of them along with me into every relationship and let them duel it out in my head. Ouch!
Last night, I realized that I FEEL sorry for them both. I don't have to pit one against the other and try to balance their scales...
and I don't have to allow them to cast their weight onto my scales. It's okay to just feel sorry for each of them - they are worthy of that.
They're also worthy of my respect for the good things they've done and of my mistrust for their obvious inability to relate to others as mature adults.
The entire picture is coming into my view and that's a relief! A very big relief.
I won't wait for the next time... because there's another issue here, as well. He wrote over a year ago with a request that I dispose of some of his property in a particular manner when he's gone... some things he wants me to have for my son. He proposed this with the tone of "your mother will not approve". Gee, thanks, Dad.
Well, when we were up there visiting, he brought this up to my husband, pointing out one particular item which he believes is of great value and wanting us to know that his intent is for my son to have it - for his education, if need be.
I've told my husband that I have absolutely no intention of following through on this. None.
I will not appear on the scene at such a time as that and present any such "case" to my mother and brother. No way.
It's my feeling now that the most honorable and honoring thing I can do for my Dad is to tell him that... and why.
If that's what he wants, then he needs to set it straight with his wife. What a bequest to leave to me... to do what he refused to do in 59 years of marriage. I'm not even angry about it anymore, now that I can see the rest of the story. I'm only determined.
Thanks so much, Dandylife... once again, talking it out here on the board has clarified so much. I may be ready to write these letters alot sooner than I'd expected.
With love,
Hope
-
hope,
I hear the strugglings in your mind and they feel so effective as you work your way thru your thoughts to the things that are best for you. I can hear the kindness and patience you have for yourself. Traits I need to adopt more often. Thank you for sharing it here. You help me learn how to think thru my own "tar-babies", as I like to call them. Thank you. I don't know if I have any wisdom to offer yet -- as I am the student in my life right now. But I can cheerlead and lend support. SO, give me an "S" for support and I send it whatever strength I can lend.
--Mof4
p.s. At least you can talk to your family. Mine won't allow problem solving conversations. Shameful! bad! Ruins the picture that everything is wonderful!
-
Hey again,
Well, my husband says that he's come to terms with his own mother by simply saying, "She did the best that she could with what she knew." He doesn't try to fix her... or convince her... that she's okay. He doesn't return her calls, either.... .
Hope:
I think your husband has the right idea. It's easier to forgive our parents when we admit that they were doing the best they could, with what they had.
There's a saying.... "We often judge our parents, and seldom forgive."
Right.
I see that. ::gulp:: Now that I'm a parent.... it gives me pause and new perspective.
Forgiving them frees us..... not them..... final analysis.
Your husband figured that out. He's broken contact. I respect that.
I love that you write letters to your parents then tear them up. Sitting down and writing and ripping and writing and ripping will lead your internalizing your true feelings, sans overwhelming emotions, that cloud the air and keep us confused.
Hate the confusion.
I love that feeling of working something through to it's final distillation.
Clarity of mind.
Clarity of emotion, no matter what anyone says (that usually throws us into a tail spin?) we have our thoughts in order, at hand, without laboring through old business.... because we worked it out on paper, right?
Right.
You sound so ready for clarity in your life.
-
hope,
I hear the strugglings in your mind and they feel so effective as you work your way thru your thoughts to the things that are best for you. I can hear the kindness and patience you have for yourself. Traits I need to adopt more often. Thank you for sharing it here. You help me learn how to think thru my own "tar-babies", as I like to call them. Thank you. I don't know if I have any wisdom to offer yet -- as I am the student in my life right now. But I can cheerlead and lend support. SO, give me an "S" for support and I send it whatever strength I can lend.
--Mof4
p.s. At least you can talk to your family. Mine won't allow problem solving conversations. Shameful! bad! Ruins the picture that everything is wonderful!
Mof4 - Thank you! These struggles are finally feeling effective to me, too - for once! To read that I am being kind and patient with myself is striking... I hadn't even seen it in that light, but you're right. I must have absorbed this from my husband, who has truly been gentle with me - one of just a few people in my entire life who has - and with the most consistency.
Your support is so very meaningful to me and helpful... I get something out of each exchange here, as I try to apply my new eyes to it. I can't take anything for granted or assume that old answers apply. For whatever reason, I've always had more success in identifying what I do NOT want, then what I actually do need... and so I look here, expecting to find. I've not been disappointed.
Your "P.S." caught me... and I had to question the question. This still amazes me... because what was missing for so long was my ability to ask anything!
Can I talk to my family? Well, yes, I am able to talk "to" them (but not necessarily "with" them?)
And I understand that I'm able to because they are not screamers, they won't call me names or anything like that... so there's no fear of a rage encounter.
Generally what's happened when I've tried to talk to them is silence/dismay/pursed lips/disinterest/denial/subject dropped.
But that was another time. My few little declarations have come from a different source - a judgmental place from which I was occasionally able to stir up enough anger and resentment to announce: Look here, this is how it is. And then... silence.
So I'd say I'm paddling along in your boat...
"Mine won't allow problem solving conversations. Shameful! bad! Ruins the picture that everything is wonderful!"
Yup... that's familiar. Looking back over my life, I've spoiled that little picture plenty... by accident. This time - it'll be intentional ;)
Love,
Hope
-
hope,
"Mine won't allow problem solving conversations. Shameful! bad! Ruins the picture that everything is wonderful!"
Yup... that's familiar. Looking back over my life, I've spoiled that little picture plenty... by accident. This time - it'll be intentional ;)
Love,
Hope
It's freeing to realize we can love our parents, or anyone, the way we need to....
and have it still be Ok.
Even when it's not the way they want to be loved.
-
Lighter,
It's taken me a long while to recognize that my husband is right about this.
Before, it seemed so cold to me... so uncaring... but then I experienced some of her callousness myself (at least that's how I interpreted it) and felt the tug into her whirlpool of blame... blaming herself, I think maybe - and needing constant reassurance that he's okay with her, but never being satisfied.
She threw him out when he was 16 - her oldest child, only son.
Whatever will he be able to do to convince her that he's past that?
Apparently nothing.
I'd thought that I could write to her and help to keep communication lines open, but I was mistaken. I can't deny the "creepy" feeling when she'd say,
"Give my love to my son." Or, in her bday greeting, when she treated me (I felt) as though I were a secretary... or even merely an object, blocking her path... yes, creepy.
Being a parent myself gives me great pause, too.
I hear you.
I want that freedom and will have it... and I know that you do.
My husband hasn't entirely broken contact... but he has stopped both responding and reacting. He will, on rare occasions, initiate a call. Very rare, and usually, in the past, as a result of my encouragement. And he sends gifts on occasions. So he hasn't cut her out, just made her a non-factor in daily life... and apparently has no "list" of requirements which would change that.
That puzzles me a bit. It seems he'd have some sort of wish list which might make him more eager to connect with her... but maybe he doesn't even know what would be on that list. I used to think that he should work on that. Now I'm coming to understand.
I am indeed so ready for clarity. These new eyes are still not adjusted to the light, but I've never felt more level and balanced as now. I think that I have faced down the fear and incorporated the rest of myself within... now for the feeling to follow the thinking :)
Thank you for being a part of this!
Love,
Hope
-
It's freeing to realize we can love our parents, or anyone, the way we need to....
and have it still be Ok.
Even when it's not the way they want to be loved.
oops...
That is the truth!! !! !
Lighter, if I ever get a tattoo (which is highly unlikely - lol) THIS is what it would say!
Thank you!
Love, Hope
-
Hope:
I'm still working on loving people the way I need to...... and not the way they require.
I understand the concept, have internalized it in the past during terrible times but..... have yet to accomplish it in my FOO.
My general style is to avoid.
I'm not good at conflict, though I seem to invite it a lot, I suppose it looks that way here, lol.
LIVE! DIE! judgmental stuff but it's not natural for me. I'd rather eat a bug than figure all this stuff out. Or avoid.
I'm a healer.
I'm the glue person.
I'm the easy going go with the flow girl.
That's my place or I'm the judged, weak, selfish, no empathy avoider.
I am standing up to lot's of people, in lots of ways lately.
But it's not natural and it's not comfortable and it's still hard hard hard.
Hard to love them and not just avoid them, I guess.
This takes so much darned energy, lol.
Fixing myself and the parts of relationships I can fix.
Realizing what I can't fix and making peace with the reality of the people in my life.
Accepting them as they are and protecting myself because that's my job.
I'm trying to figure out what relationships to keep right now.... as opposed to thinking about how to fix what I can, lol.
It's just not within my grasp to take on more than I've got right now.
I'll calm down and focus on that when I have some breathing room. Understand my true feelings, via all that journaling I keep recommending others do, lol.
::lightbulb going off!::
I can break patterns of compulsive thoughts by j o u r n a l i n g It's so hard to figure out how to get past the lowest points with your face pressed against the glass, lol.
This board is so good for that. ::looking for that wonderful black leather bound journal I haven't opened yet::
-
Lighter,
I haven't even yet defined the terms... I mean, I don't know what all I may need. When I find enjoyment in people now, it's different from the past.
Now it's pure pleasure from the interaction, and no longer about whether or not I have "satisfied" them. The notion that anyone could meet my needs or be willing to do that is still so foreign, after a lifetime of thinking that my goal was to be to have NO needs. That was the first lie to be exposed, I think. I have needs... and that doesn't make me weak, mother dear. Hmm... maybe that's the beginning of my letter to her... or not. Moving right along...
I'm thinking it must be so much more difficult in our original families to put this into practice. It's challenging enough here at home! But there... so much water under that bridge. I only have one brother, but no contact for 5 years. At this point I'm not even considering (much) what might be involved with attempting to re-connect with him. This will be no quick easy "fix".
About conflict - I was always terrified. Once I determined to face that fear, I'm sure that I entertained far more of it than was wise. Learning to choose battles requires exercise and experience, I'd say. I've not been reading here again for long, but my impression of you is not at all of a person who invites conflict...
but rather of a person who is willing to face it when necessary.
The judgmental stuff is second nature to me... full to overflowing with it from years of practice.
My husband has taken the brunt of that, with grace.
Even once I recognized that, it was so frightening to release it all... what if I miss something?? What if someone makes a fool of me???
What if I walk straight into danger unawares????
Burying all those what-ifs is an imperative for me. I do trust God... really I do. Now I just need to begin living like it.
About all the rest - I really don't know what I am... but I am coming to terms with what I'm not.
Avoidance has been a lifelong habit.
Yesterday I removed a dead sparrow from the spot where he'd gotten his foot stuck. For the first time I recognized... I'm not doing this because I have to prove to myself that I'm no longer avoidant. I'm doing it because it needs to be done. My new eyes won't allow for blinders and they're not afraid of the light.
It does take alot of energy in the first practicings :) I run dry quickly... but then I also notice that I'm being refilled quickly and I thank God for that.
Journaling is a wonderful plan. I feel like that's what I'm doing here. Not sure a black leather volume would work for me just yet... because I need this accountability, lest I click back into reporting mode and disconnect... from myself.
I'm so glad you're here to grow with. I know I skipped a couple things here, but I see words like "compulsive", for instance, and an entire new topic blooms in my brain - lol. I tend to bite off way more than I can chew and not know when to take a break... so... here I am, breaking.
With much love,
Hope
-
I hear ya, Hope.
What happened with your brother, if you don't mind my asking?
-
I hear ya, Hope.
What happened with your brother, if you don't mind my asking?
Well... he's like my Dad gone bad. If he's not NPD (and I really don't know), he's the next thing to it... as though he tapped into the worst traits of both our parents to the 10th power.
Let's see... what happened?
Nothing too dramatic at the end... I told him that I didn't want any more of the trashy emails he was sending me (poor husband/mean, nasty wife/really bad taste) and never heard another word. I take that back... when our aunt passed away (she lived in his state) - I got an email with subject line: Aunt ______ died.
He's an entrepeneur, a self-proclaimed "star"(vocalist), loaded with funds but they're all tied up in property and then he conveniently "forgets" his wallet when his impoverished-sister-with-4 kids-to-support is in the store with him so she has to pay - repeatedly, promise breaker, truth-twister, manipulator, mysoginist (once referred to my "slut days" in front of one of my children and repeatedly made comments about my physical characteristics when I was a teen/young adult, loud-mouthed, pushy, bully...
on the positive side - he flew my oldest daughter down here once with him and his girlfriend, shortly after we moved here...
harangued my daughter so badly on that trip that his girlfriend left him the moment they returned home.
He's now married to # 5 (I think) - no natural children, but this wife has a son.
My Dad caters to him, too. Parents' home is nearby brother's summer "cottage", on acreage. He refers to them as his "caretakers".
I'm sure he has some other redeeming qualities, but those escape me at the moment.
Clearly I have alot more work to do.
:shock:
Love,
Hope
-
Ummmm.... that about summed up what happened between you and your brother, no further explanation needed.
Good Lord and little fishes.
Aunt _________ died?
::shiver::
-
Really got a lot out of listening in on your conversation, Lighter and Hope. Thanks.
Really like the the idea of making the N's a non-factor. Gonna think this one over!
Love and Goo,
mof4
-
I'm going to have to go back and re read the posts, MO4, lol. I don't remember that lesson but I sure need to learn it.
-
I'm going to have to go back and re read the posts, MO4, lol. I don't remember that lesson but I sure need to learn it.
Oh, that was in my reply to you, Lighter... post #25 ( I had to look back, too.)
Here it is:
"My husband hasn't entirely broken contact... but he has stopped both responding and reacting. He will, on rare occasions, initiate a call. Very rare, and usually, in the past, as a result of my encouragement. And he sends gifts on occasions. So he hasn't cut her out, just made her a non-factor in daily life... and apparently has no "list" of requirements which would change that."
Mof4, That was in reference to my mother-in-law... not that she's NPD, just someone with whom my husband has chosen to take this approach because... well, I guess he finds it too difficult to be "real" with her? Much of this is unclear to me yet, but I think it's just too much of an emotional swampland for him to put in a toe...
Anyhow, yes! NoN-factor with reference to N's is the way to go! :)
-
I'm going to have to go back and re read the posts, MO4, lol. I don't remember that lesson but I sure need to learn it.
Oh, that was in my reply to you, Lighter... post #25 ( I had to look back, too.)
just too much of an emotional swampland for him to put in a toe...
Anyhow, yes! NoN-factor with reference to N's is the way to go! :)
Yep yep yep....... but to tell ya the truth, and for whatever reason, I always zone out when I get to "NoN-factor with reference to N's is the way to go!" part, lol. It doesn't compute, lol. Brain burpage or something: )