Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lupita on July 25, 2007, 07:43:54 AM
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This is so beautiful, that I have to post it. Is not mine, but from a nice friend. To start a thread on boundaries.
http://www.sideroad.com/Self_Help/setting-boundaries.html
http://www2.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/tows_past_20010205.jhtml
"We deserve to be protected. We missed the boat on having the normal family protection network and it's unfair we weren't raised to think about boundaries and protecting ourselves.
We have to learn to fend off the people who are in traditional positions of trust in our lives. So so sad and it's so confusing to even come to grips with it much less overcome that.
Anwya..... then, if we can make really good choices and not let unworthy people in, I'm pretty sure nice things will eventually come to us. The trick seems to be identifing the bad and saying NO so we have room for the good bc it comes along too, we're just usually enmeshed with unhealthy people and aren't able to see beyond it. "
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Again for example, the only humor he was exposed in his unhappy home was the unfunniness of sarcasm. Life with a narcissist left even his normal parent with nothing to laugh about, except - you guessed it - sarcasm. But again, if you ask him to stop it, he takes the message deeply to heart. Again you find yourself trying to make him feel less bad about it. Again his behavior changes. Whereas a narcissist's never does.
When the child of a narcissist leaves home, it takes a while for his own, natural sense of humor to germinate and grow in a new environment that is not hostile to it. The good news is that, by the time they reach their thirties, the normal children of narcissists often display a sense of humor more witty and charming than that of most other people. Perhaps because they themselves appreciate it so much.
Again for example, the child of a narcissist may not accept praise or compliments gracefully. He is unused to them! Like anything extraordinary in our world, this extraordinary event throws him off balance. He has never learned to simply say, "Thank you."
Like a narcissist, he may protest that he doesn't deserve it. But his reason for doing so is the opposite of a narcissist's. It's not because he feels it would humiliate him to say "Thank you." It's because this praise or compliment conflicts with a long history of judgments against him as being inadequate. He may suspect flattery. This goes with what I said above about the daughters of male narcissists doubting professions of love.
Here again, the difference between him and a narcissist is easily demonstrated. If the other party takes the bull by the horns in the direct approach and responds with, "Why don't you just say 'Thank you?'" or "I am not flattering you. I really mean it" the child of a narcissist ponders his behavior and changes it. A narcissist never does.
The normal parent can do much to ease her child's adaptation to the real world by watching for such behaviors and teaching him to cope with these situations in interactions with normal people. It is as easy as saying, "When somebody compliments you, just say 'Thank you.'"
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For example, the child of a narcissist may impolitely enter a room talking to interrupt the extant conversation. He hasn't been taught that this is bad manners. To the contrary, his (dominant) narcissistic parent did that twenty times a day. Also, he has found it so hard to get attention that he feels he must hijack it.
The difference between him and a narcissist, however, is easily demonstrated. If you ask him to stop it, he takes the message deeply to heart. In fact, you will find yourself trying to make him feel less bad about it. His behavior will change. A narcissist's never does. To contrary, if you ask a narcissist to stop doing something, he does it all the more.
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You may think that this does not make sense. It does. Those are the reasons we do not know how to set boundaries. I do not know them. When somebody enforces their boundaries with us we have no idea what in the world is happening. We are used to the abuse. We are used to be objects. My mother entered my room any time. I never had a room on my own, my sister and I had it together. My mom had prohibited to close the door. Never. She went through my stuff all the time and took whatever she wanted and then she said that I most have forgotten it somewhere else. There I am looking for something like crazy, thinking I am going nuts. And she knew.
That is why I behave like a worm, going on the floor picking crumbs and people step on me.
Or when something happens and your mother tells you that it is your imagination that it never happened. You do believe you are going bananas.
Like Ami said, you have to believe that it was lies. It was lies.
There is no way that we are going to be able to set boundaries.
Like lighter says, little by little. On assertive behavior a day. Today I have to call O’s mom and tell her that I have something. I do not want to offend her. I just do not want to be with her.
Oh God, I am so scared. It is stupid.
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There are basically three parts to a boundary. The first two are setting the boundary - the third is what you will do to defend that boundary.
Part 1] If you - Is a description of the behavior you find unacceptable [being as descriptive as possible].
Part 2] I will - Is a description of what action you will take to protect and take care of yourself in the event the other person violates the boundary.
Part 3] If you continue this behavior I will - Is a description of what steps you will take to protect the boundary that you have set.
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Thanks for this great review, Lupita.
I think we can never read too little about boundaries.
Even if it's the same simple things over and over...
That's what I need.
This is wonderful stuff.
love,
Hops
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Exactly!!!!!!!!!
And that is what makes me upset.
You knew about it.
I did not. It is totally new for me. Tatally new.
I did not even know that boundaries existed.
I hope to find somebody else who did not know.
50 years old. And when O got on my car changed my air condition, my music, complained about my driving, yell at me if I could have passed in yellow and I stopped bc I was afraid to get cought on red.
Hermother did the same until I recntly told her not to touch my air conditioned.
I did not know about boundaries until I came to the website. And when somebody enforced boundaries towards me I have no idea what was going on.
Hopalong, you knew it. I did not. Some way you learned it.
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Lupita,
Thanks so much for the great articles.
Everything I read, I could realate to as a child of an N.
Scary how true it was!
Love,
Bigalspal
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From a gal who needs boundaries worse than air, thanks!
--mof4
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Lupita,
Some way, somehow, imo you'll be able soon to turn it around so you feel,
Damn, I'm angry that I didn't know it before today! Okay, done with that.
Now...I am so glad I'm learning it now!
You know? Like...awareness of what you DO have or ARE being given,
rather than just what you DON'T have or AREN'T being given?
Sounds simplistic but imo it can really turn your life around, when you look
at it as a pile of blessings, feeling grateful (not self-loathing translated
into inferiority--but actually, peacefully, grateful)...
Then learning to become free becomes a happier process. Painful moments
are inevitable but you can choose what's going to be the theme. Pain or
gratitude.
What I think, anyway (and I sure don't always do it as I preach it). I do
think about the fact that my mother is 96 and never learned ANY of this.
And I'm 57 and I've had the chance to learn psychology and participate
in 3-D support groups and therapy and this forum.
Grateful's an understatement.
love
Hops
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Trying to set boundaries maybe set us alone, hopefully temporarily. I invited an acquaintance of mine to go to the dance with me but she says that she can go only a couple of ours. I do not want to go for a couple of ours so I told her that I do not want to sacrifice her for me. But I need to go there and leave whenever I want to. Of course if you want company you cannot do whatever you want to. So, I guess I am going to end up going alone. Hope that the people there dont look at me bad bc of going alone.
Learning how to set boundaries is a vital part of learning to own yourself, of learning to respect yourself, of learning to love yourself. If you never have to set a boundary, then you will never get in touch with who you really are - will never learn to define yourself in a healthy way.
No one deserves to be treated abusively. No one deserves to be lied to and betrayed.
We all deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. If you do not respect yourself, if you do not start awakening to your right to be treated with respect and dignity (and your responsibility in creating that in your life) - then you will be more comfortable being involved with people who abuse you then with people who treat you in loving ways.
Learning to set boundaries is vital to learning to love yourself, and to communicating to other's that you have worth.
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Hops, how did you start? When did you open your eyes? When did you recognized that you started to change? Where you selfish in the past?
I havd been rejected so much, for not knowing. I have suffered so much for not knowing. For not understanding when to remain silent and when to open my mouth to change foot.
After so much suffering, and trying to understand what that heck is going on, then I see that I was many times intrusive. Asked too many questions. Pushed too much people. And allow others to do the same to me.
Now at 50, I have to start all over again, new, start building bridges, finding new clubs, after I just found the first club in 30, yes 30 years of my life without interaction. Just work and sleep. Found my first club, as a founder, and I failed to adapt o them because I cannot tolerate unilateral desicions.
With God's help, I will find a group of people who subject things to vote, and go with the majority, with out psychological games, hmmm, I am asking for somethin impossible.
Then I have to adapt, because a group of healthy people who do not play psychological games is going to be impossible.
So, maybe I just have to learn how to deal with the spychological games with out being hurt, and with out sufferin.
Setting boundaries, that I still dont even know what my boundaries are.
I know that I do not want to be asked to change my schedule to please others. I have to look busy, and I will jusy not give explanations, just say, sorry I am not available at that time.
I have to think of my boundaries. Not to wait till somebody abuses me and then discover, oh!! That is somehting I do not like!!!
Until somebody calls me 5 times a day and ask me what am i doing and where am I. And usually I explain everything I am doing. Last Sunday ofr th first time I said "why?"
Thank you for all your help Hop. Please, keep helping us. We love you. I love you.
Lupita
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My son is only 20 and he tells me. Mother, you said yes. I took it because you told me I could.
He is my son and probably the only person who really loves me. And even with him I have this problem.
And he made me see that if I say yes, it is not other's fault. They believe that I say yes because I say yes.
I remember my mother giving away my poppy with out telling me. I just got home and my doggy was not there. She gave it away. She said that everything in the house belongues to her, even us, bc she gave birth to us. I felt something was wrong and felt very ungry but I did not know what was going on. When I did something in my house I always included my son.
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In her recent visit, my mother ruined a skelet. I told her that she had to use a plastic spatula for that kins of skelet. She did not care. My skelet is ruined. I know she had one and hse took good care of it. Why did she ruined mine?
Not only that, but she was doing it in front of me and my son. She was using a regular soup spoon with that skelet in front of us, serving my son, she wanted me to yell at her in front of my son, so she can start crying and show my son how bad I am.
I am starting to relize six weeks after her departure. It took me sex weeks.
That is too much. I need to recognize the situation on time, to anticipate my response, so I can be safe and healthy.
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Setting boundaries, that I still dont even know what my boundaries are.
I have to think of my boundaries. Not to wait till somebody abuses me and then discover, oh!! That is somehting I do not like!!!
Lupita,
I know this frustration. I have decided that I do know what my boundaries are somewhere inside of myself and that my feelings are trying to tell me what they are. Sometimes I have been frustrated that I didn't know what they were until the abuse happens and I discover too late. Luckily and benevolently, life seems to repeat itself so I can learn. I find myself writing it down. Maybe that is what you are doing with the board. I have found that my boundaries are showing themselves to me as I listen to my real feelings and stop dismissing them as things I don't deserve or things that are stupid and unimportant. Sometimes my fear and my protections and my panic prevents me from listening to my feelings. Trying now to be very quiet inside of myself while I am in important and non important conversations. To slow down my reactions to others and so I can listen to what my boundaries are. Then I try to make notes to remind myself. Sounds stupid probably. But it is working.
--mof4
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This is the part that I am failing:T
the first two steps are the actual parts of setting the boundary. The third part is something you need to know for yourself, so that you know what action you can take if the other person violates the boundary. If you set a boundary and expect the other person to abide by it automatically - then you are setting yourself up to be a victim of your expectations.
It is not enough to just set boundaries - it is necessary to be willing to do whatever it takes to enforce them. You need to be willing to go to any length, do whatever it takes to protect yourself.
It is also very important to set consequences that you are willing to enforce. If you are setting boundaries in a relationship, and you are not yet at a point where you are ready to leave the relationship - then don't say that you will leave. You can say that you will start considering all of your options, including leaving - but do not state that you will do something that you are not yet ready to do.
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Start with very little ones, Lup, and tell yourself,
I have to do this wrong two times, and right two times.
And then change it: wrong one time, right three times,
wrong four times, right one time.
This will help you stop telling yourself "I'm failing"
and instead tell yourself, "I'm learning. I'm practicing.
This is what practicing is. Practicing something new
includes making mistakes and not always doing it right."
If that wasn't true nobody would need piano lessons.
Hops
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Mother!!!!!!!! That is a wonderful idea. I will use this board, because at the same time I get feed back from wonderful people.
Thank you Mof4
Please, friends, keep helping me. Can you tell me about your boundaries?
Hop, can you tell me about your boundaries?
Do I wait until somebody steps on my toes? How can I invent my boundaries?
Please, friends, tell me about it!!!!!!!! Please.
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Lupita,
Making that phone call is one small boundary. Saying No.
The basic boundary of all boundaries.
That phone call is simply to say, No.
I think if you read Man's Search for Meaning, by Victor Frankl, and then start asking yourself,
What is the worst that could happen? And then visualize the choices...you'll break out of the paralysis.
It's that kind of work. No quick, instant answer, unfortunately.
But I know you can do it.
Hops
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I do not want to be with O, O's mom, P, or A. I choose to remove my self from those people. FIRST time I AM DOING THIS.
You want the other person to change their behavior - you hope they will. But you need to own all of your choices in order to empower yourself to take responsibility for your life - to stop setting yourself up to be a victim. One of your choices is to remove yourself from a relationship with another person. You can leave a marriage. You can leave a job. You do not have to have any contact with your family of origin. It is vitally important to own all of your choices.
If you do not own that you have a choice to leave an abusive relationship - then neither are you making a choice to stay in the relationship. You are just "going along." Any time you do not own your choices, you are empowering victimization. You will then blame the other person, and/or blame yourself. It is a vital part of the process of learning to love yourself, and taking responsibility for being a co-creator in your life, to own all of your choices.
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Lupita, my darling,
Love what you are saying here in your last post. Love the idea of owning my choices. Sometimes I feel I make choices because I have to. Part of the trap.
Questions come to my mind....
How do I own choices but stay in relationships. If I stay out of relationships, then the pushes and pulls of it, the obligations of it, the respect of others needs are all suspended. It is clean. But I realize that I am not an island and I have to, for my own happiness, engage in relationships. So,
how do I stop being a victim but stay in a marrage? How do I take responsibility for my choices without being painful for others? I guess I feel such a responsibility to be kind and understanding and tolerant of others weakness, that I tend to throw out the baby with the bath water. I throw out my own needs and wants and standards, in favor of making the other guy comfortable. Clearly that doesn't work. So then I withdraw completely and crap!, I end up alone. Don't want to be alone. So, I have to learn how to navigate relationships. I need remedial help, I am afraid. Trying to learn from your posts.
Thank you my dear for listening.....
--mof4
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Lupita, you're doiing such wonderful work on your boundaries.
Reading it is a learning/review experience for me too.
You're getting it!
You're making connections and figuring out how to give your needs as much/more importance than any other person in your life.
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I choose to go by my self to my dance, rather than to beg a friend to accompany me. I can go alone and dance and come back whenever i want.
When you look outside yourself for self-definition and self-worth, you are giving your power away and setting yourself up to be a victim. Society has trained you to be victim. You have been taught to give your power away.
As just one small example of how pervasively you were trained to be a victim, consider how often you have said, or heard someone say, "I have to go to work tomorrow." When a person says "I have to" they are making a victim statement. To say, "I have to get up, and I have to go to work," is a lie. No one forces an adult to get up and go to work. The truth is "I choose to get up and I choose to go to work today, because I choose to not have the consequences of not working."
To say "I choose" is not only the truth, it is empowering and acknowledges an act of self-love. When we "have to" do something we feel like a victim. And because we feel victimized, we will then be angry, and want to punish whomever we see as forcing us do something we do not want to do.
We always have a choice. The choice may sometimes seem to be awful - but in reality, allowing ourselves to buy into the illusion that we are trapped will have far worse consequences in the long run.
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Porbably mother of 4 you were not taken care as a child. That is the consequence, we think that we will not survive alone. We will survive. I promise you.
The company we are crying for, does not exist, it is a ghost. A ghost whose power we our selves attribute to it. And that company we cry for, they do not do anything for us. We do everything for them. It is the opposite but we think it viceverse.
I was very badly discriminated in a job and I stayed there for six years. I thought that nobody would hire me. I stayed there because of fear of the unknown. But when the pain of staying is bigger than the pain of leaving you leave. And I did. Guess what. I got a job three weeks later. Not even time to rest. I had an unjustified fear. Probably you do too.
Thank you motherof4 for your nice posts, you are loving and lovable. Thank you so much for your help, your time to read and write and post and be such a nice human being. Thank you.
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Learning to set boundaries is a vital part of learning to communicate in a direct and honest manner. It is impossible to have a healthy relationship with someone who has no boundaries, with someone who cannot communicate directly and honestly.
Learning how to set boundaries is a necessary step in learning to be a friend to yourself. It is your responsibility to take care of yourself - to protect yourself when it is necessary. It is impossible to learn to be loving to yourself without owning yourself - and owning your rights and responsibilities as co-creator of your life.
I have to take care of my self. If I espect somebody else to take care of my self I am setting my self up to a trap. To be a victim.
I am not a victim. I do not want to be a victim. I want to be in charge. I have to be responsible of my own life.
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I DONT NEED ANYBODY, I HAVE MY SELF!!!!!!!
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I do not want to be a sheep, I do not want to say baaaaa baaaaa beeee beeee when the leader raises his hand. I do not want to suck up to a Narcissistic B****ch. Period. I will find a healthy friendship of mutual give and take, not control frieck.
Setting boundaries means that you are taking responsibility, being adult and demanding equality and respect in a relationship.
Setting boundaries reflects your right to say NO to those things that aren't right for you.
Setting boundaries is about learning to take care of yourself, no matter what happens, where you go or who you are with.
Boundaries emerge as we learn to value, trust and listen to yourself.
Boundaries emerge from a belief that what you want, need, like and dislike is important.
Boundaries emerge from deep decisions about what you believe you deserve and don't deserve.
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Lupita:
HEAR! HEAR!
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My friend S wanted to invite another friend who is a friend of O who causes me triggering. I told her, she makes me uncomfortable and that I cannot go with her. S said I will take care of it, donot worry. Those are the friends I need to hang out with. I do not need retarded victims or arrogant Ns. Just a friend, just a fair person. S is going with me to the dance. I am not saying I am going with her. She is going with me. I am choosing to pick her up because I want to. She is not using me. I want to pick her up. I want to be nice to her. She wants to leave her car in her house in case her sick mother needs something. I choose to pick her up to be nice to her. Not to get her aproval. I own the fact the I will drive. I am choosing to drive. We will come back when I want to.I am in control of my life. Not her life, mylife. I can survive on my own. Do not need anybody.
1] Anger, rage, complaining, whining, and feeling threatened, "suffocated" or victimized are clues to
boundaries you need to set.
12] When you identify a need to set a boundary or a limit with someone, do it clearly, preferably without anger
and in as few words as possible.
13] You cannot simultaneously set a limit with someone and also take care of their feelings - they may be
hurt, angry or disappointed with you.
14] When you first begin to set boundaries, you may feel ashamed and afraid.
15] Be prepared to follow through by acting in congruence with the boundaries you set.
16] You'll be tested when you set boundaries.
17] Some people are happy to respect your boundaries.
18] A support system can be helpful as you strive to establish and enforce boundaries.
19] You'll set boundaries when you are ready and not a minute sooner.
10] There's a satisfying side to setting boundaries - it feels good.
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Lupita,
You GO,Girl. You are doing great Love Ami
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Lupita,
I am really benefiting from your posts and the feeling that comes thru each one on this thread. Feel like I am learning a lot from you. So hard to identify my boundaries. I read some of your thoughts today and realized just how much work I have in front of me. I am a little daunted by the task but the timing is exactly right. So, I guess I will get to work!! Sometimes really hard for me to express what I feel and think. And others do it so much better than I. Think I might be better at talking rather than this writing. Just wanted to say thanks. You are giving me courage to face some of my fears. BIG GIANT FEARS! About being alone. But maybe it is a ghost. Something that just isn't there. Why do I think that I need it so bad? I have been alone since I was 4. Emotionally alone. I have been a survivor and didn't really even know it. My mother was so needy and controlling and insecure. I was so problematic for her. I haven't wanted to relive any of this pain. Don't want to go back to it. It is too much. The pain has lasted for too long. But I do want to move forward. I so want to be at peace with myself and my boundaries. Hard for me to understand the concept of not needing anyone. Yet, we all come to this board looking for support and hoping to find friendship. Solitary confinement is one of the worst forms of punishment. I am trying to learn the balance and the skills to find the balance between being such a rouge/maverick, not needing others (which kinda feels incomplete truth to me), and finding and maintaining relationships in the healthy realm.
Lupita, don't know if I am making sense. It is all stream of conscienceness today!
--mof4
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Hey Lupita,
Thank you very much for printing these wonderful articles about boundaries...it is a great review. (I always like it when people include the URL from something, when you can...but no worries.)
It's positively electric to be around you when you have all these light bulbs going off! I can feel your energy, determination and joy in claiming yourself!
It may feel brittle at first but don't worry, just practice. Eventually you don't have to struggle to remind yourself, setting healthy boundaries just becomes a peaceful part of your exchange with the world.
hugs
Hops
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When O calls me and ask me why I am not taking her mother and S to the Dance I am not going to ask her why dont you take them, I am going to tell her that I am trying to be like her because she is an example for me and I am trying to feel comfortable and I really do not feel comforatble due to my own upbringing and I feel very sorry, but I wont be able to take them with me.
"You don't have a right to tell me what to think, or invalidate my feelings."
"Don't vent your anger on me, I won't have it."
"This is mine, you don't have a right to use it as yours."
"I won't accept your belittling jokes, your criticism or your condescending attitude toward me."
"I won't be disrespected - If you won't respect me, then stay away."
"Keep your hands off me."
"Stop doing that... or I'll leave" [ report you; file charges etc.]
"Don't try to tell me what to do."
"If we're going to have a working relationship, I need honesty, respect and equality."
"I need to communicate when we have a misunderstanding."
"I need openness and sharing in a relationship - your witholding is making our relationship not satisfying to me."
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Dear Hope, the site I will post when I fisnih, I do not want you to go and read it before I am finish venting. Just two more Ideas and I will post the site website.
Love you.
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Personal Boundaries - How do maintain them
Ask directly for what you want. This shows who you are to others.
Nurture yourself and your integrity. This creates an inner, intuitive sense that lets you know when a
relationship has become hurtful, abusive or invasive.
Be objective about others' behavior toward you without getting caught in their drama.
Maintain a bottom line - a limit to how many times you will allow someone to say no, to lie to you, to
disappoint you, or betray you before you will admit the painful reality and move on.
Change the focus of trust from other to yourself. Don't put yourself in someone else's hands or expect
infallibility. Trust that you can allow others to be normally human and still have satisfying intimacy.
Affirmations of Your Basic Rights
Nobody has the right to know my mind or my business or to tell me what to think, what to feel or what to
do.
I have a right to my own thoughts, feelings, values and beliefs.
What I share with others about matters that concern me is determined by what feels right to me - not what
they want.
If people are abusive or disrespectful to me, I have a right to tell them so, to ask them to stop and to avoid
them.
I don't have to be nice to people who aren't nice to me.
I don't need abuse or to be disrespected.
I have a need and right to love myself, respect myself and to stand up for myself.
I have a right to be who I am and to harmlessly live my own life regardless of whether others don't like it.
I don't have to feel guilty for not behaving as others might want me to or for not giving other what they
expect of me.
I accept myself just as I am in the moment with whatever thoughts and feelings I have.
I accept my right to my imperfection and shortcomings and don't feel guilty for not being perfect.
I believe that we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us - to treated with love and
respect.
I believe that if I am true to myself and live by the highest truth I know, that things will turn out for the best
in the long run.
"When one has faith that the spring thaw will arrive, the winter winds seem to
lose some of their punch." - Robert L. Veninga
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TARA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.heart-2-heart.ca/men/page14.html
You can deduct that I am feeling very well today. I feel great. I love my son, I praise the Lord everyday for the son I have. I like what I see in the mirror.
I love you guys. Hope I am not having a small mania crisis, hope that this is a very true good feeling about my self. You have never seen me like this. I have never felt like this in many many years.
I am not sick, no, no. Just joking.
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YAY! YAY!
Lupita!
This post was so wonderful to find.... it snuck up on me just when I was getting so much out of all the information you posted!
Seeing you progress is about the best thing that's happened to me all day! ::sniff::
You're going to be a force to be reckoned with in this world.... and you'll dance well too!