Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: growler100 on July 27, 2007, 06:42:00 PM
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Hi all- My daughter is 10.5 y/o. Her mother, who has residential custody, is a N. Not physically abusive but very emotionally abusive. Her mother and I were never married or lived together. I no longer try to expose the true mother and person. As I'm sure you all know that's next to impossible. My daughter has never talked about life with mom until recently
and I was shocked by what she told me. I'm considering therapy for my daughter and was wondering if any of you went to therapy as a child and (1) was it helpful (2) were there
bad concequences from the N parent. Thank You
Alan
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Hi Alan and welcome,
I didn't have therapy as a child but you know I wish I had. I found out that my family werte not healthy when I was in my thirties. I had kept everything deep inside me for so long that even now I have a problem expressing how I feel and trying to make sense of it. If your daughter is beginning to talk about it I would find a nurturing therapist and give her a chance to express it. I was like a pressure cooker and still am to some extent. i kept so much stuff packed inside that I was always ready to explode.
Keep posting Alan,
there are a lot of people here who will understand
Spyralle x
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Welcome, Alan... it's wonderful that you're involved in your daughter's life!
I can't really comment about child therapy, but I would strongly suggest that you use caution in introducing the subject to the child's mother. Perhaps once you've located a therapist (if you choose to pursue that route), you may want to discuss options with him/her regarding how to approach this N. As you are likely quite aware, her reaction could be extreme.
Take care... wishing you and your daughter the best!
Hope
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Thank You for the replies-Spyrella- I think it would do her good also as I know she has alot to say, but just not to me. If that makes sense.
CB- I'm happy your kids have gained from therapy. My daughter (S) isn"t allowed to have friends at her mothers, not allowed to participate in summer activities,
not even to the pool. She has friends where I live that spend weekends here on the farm, camping, fishing, going to fairs and such. She seems to openly talk to her friends about wanting to live with me and about her general unhapiness at moms. I know this because her friends tell me, but when I try to talk to S about it
she goes blank and won"t say a word. Frustrating. I always thought her mom (after the first few months) was kind of weird. When I first met her she was happy, smiling, jovial. Had a 5.5 y/o son with ex husband. Kid always seemed happy around mom. Heard 100 stories about how horrible the ex was to her and son. Heard 200 stories about how horrible sons' stepmother was to him. I didn"t know either and her stories were so compelling and tragic that nobody could be making that up. The more I sympathized, the worse the stories got. Went down the line from ex to ex to boyfriend. All fathers of her children. The whole time she seemed so nice. The nature of her tales all centered around sexual deviation and violence. Couldn"t help feeling sorry. Yes, I learned. She has isolated her children completely. 2 oldest daughters, (J) 32 and (M) 31 have had no contact with paternal families since birth. Son (G) 17 hasn't seem paternal side for a year now. Don't know why. S says he wants to. The mothers' siblings have nothing to do with her or her kids. Her parents are dead. The mother has been working, cleaning a sorority house for nearly a year now and always takes S to work with her. The son (golden) does whatever he wants.
Hope- We share joint custody, so I don't have to inform the mother. When S was 4.5 y/o we were driving through town and she said out of nowhere "Dad, I want to live with you." I replied, "That's great Sugar, would really like that. Why don't you ask your mother if that's OK." Yeah, I learned. A week later a deputy was knocking on my door asking if I want a lawyer present for this. The mother had filed abuse charges against me for hitting her and knocking her down and holding my daughter down while she was crying and screaming when the mother had come to pick S up. The deputy, female, said don't worry, nothing will come of this. She asked if I'd thought about taking S to a psychologist and I said no, why, do you think I should. She shook her head and said yes. But would not tell me why. Deputy told mother they weren't going to persue the charge. I thought it was over. Wrong. She goes to SRS (CPS) they file protection from abuse order against me for mom and S. I get lawyer, go to court (lost visitation for 5 weeks), judge asks mom what happened and in 30 seconds contridicted her story 3 times. Judge says, "Know what, I'm just going to dismiss this." Mother walks out of court smiling. Not me. It's now on the official court and SRS records that Iv'e been accused of abuse. I belive that's all she was after. Thanks for your concern Hope. My concern lies more with my daughter than me. However, I know that I can't help her from jail or without visitation, so I try to be careful.
Bless you all
Alan
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Alan
There are therapists for little children, who help these children deal with abuse they haven't even recognized. They unconciously/subconciously 'pick up' on things that could cause them fear, fear of abandonment and other things to carry into their adulthood.
If this is not looked after, she will be on this board on 25-30 years wondering what the hell is wrong with her, thinking something happemed a long, long time ago but doesn't know what it is, because she cannot remember, begging her N mother to love her, not knowing N mother never did and never can. Further to that she will likely choose the wrong man to marry and the cycle repeats. YOU nip it in the bud!!
There is a special way the chiild therapists work with the children--- loving and supportive, and then..........
...you continue the love and support, the interest, the fun, learning about her world by playing "ring-around-the-rosie", playing dollies, by doing that she knows she is a child and this is her world, and you are in it and love her. She should never have to wait to be invited into your world, to speak. When we become parents, we "become children again"
I know this from my life and I am now figuring it all out at age 68.
I have a 43 year old daughter who I "suddenly abandoned from being in a car crasch" and away for One year. She has this fear of abandonment--- and to top that of I had left her father when she was 2½ -- happened to her twice. She is in therapy too.
Little children know. They know but they cannot express their feelings! My 2½ year old put on her squall jacket and just walked out the door. I asked where she was going, and she answered, "To find Daddy." My heart broke and I went to the door to watch her as she just walked away, down the sidewalk and never looked back. (It sure would be interesting to know what she would have done had I not gone to retrieve her and have a talk about daddy's absense.
My besy wishes to you and your daughter in your quest for healthy mental lives.
Izzy
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Oh Alan, your daughter is so lucky that you heard her. You listened and believed her.
I also feel that taking her to a kind, skilled child therapist with a wonderful reputation would be a good idea. You should set up getting-acquainted appointments on your own first with several of them, and after you have met and talked with them, make a regular appointment for her. Then, you take her and go for coffee while she's there.
I think it's a wonderful idea to get her there ASAP. At 10 1/2, she's still enough of a little girl to be receptive to help. Adolescence is bearing down, and if she already has a positive association with a kind therapist, what a difference that could make.
I'm glad you're here.
Hopalong
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Alan,
What you described of N's reaction from years ago is pretty much how I imagined her reacting now, if she senses that she's under any threat of being "outed" in the course of S's therapy. But forewarned is forearmed...
if you're not already doing so, I think that now would be the time to begin documenting each and every exchange with N and with S, with dates and times, names of "witnesses"... an activity log of sorts.
From my experience, there simply is no "non-threatening" manner in which to present such a thing to N, unless N somehow gets glory from it all.
So I expect that N will try again to have you removed from the picture if she senses that her control over S is weakening... and - in my opinion - S needs you most of all.
God bless and keep you.
Hope
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Hi to all - Thank you for your help and support. I sit here and want to explain my daughter and mines' situations with her mom, but I don't know how to with out writing a book.
I can describe mine, but very little of my daughters. I have seen little blips over the last 12 years between Nmom and my daughter and her siblings. All were 1-on-1 with a child and no one else but me there. These blips for the most part left me thinking "Huh, what the heck was that about?" These blips were all weird and only a couple I now realize were mental abuse to the child. It was like an inside joke I guess and I wasn't on the inside and didn't understand. When the Nmom was pg, I would tell her of my hopes for our child and she would become put-off and tell me she wants all her children to be the same. I didn't understand then, but I do now. Nmom quit school had 2 kids by 18. 2 fathers. Daughters J and
M. J quit school had 2 kids by 18. 1 father who has always had custody. M quit school had 2 kids by 18. 2 fathers. Son G 17 to be senior this year wanted to quit school when freshman as he was failing 3 classes at end of year. Stayed in school. Don't know how he is doing now. Hope he makes it. Started his first job this summer 4 weeks ago at McDonalds
and was fired after 2.5 weeks for stealing a customers cell phone. Had it in his pocket when manager dialed the number to see where customer left his phone!
Hope- After the abuse charge I took Nmom to court in attempt to get court ordered Psychological eval. for Daughter. Moms' lawyer got that changed to Parenting skills classes at
county mental health. I attended 5 classes and expressed some concerns about S. Nmom made call to set first appointment and told Psychotherapist that she thought psychotherapy
could "mess with S mind" and was ambivalent about facilitating a mental health intake or evaluation for her daughter. Nmom rescheduled first appointment and then never called or showed up. Went back to court Judge was not happy with Nmom. Ordered Psych. and Parenting Evaluations on Nmom and I. Ordered intake and evaluation for S. Nmom brought 2 daughters in to vouch for her, therapist would not allow me to present anyone whom could attest to my relationship with my daughter. S was never evaluated and Nmom received a shinning review as testament of her daughters. There was no retaliation. I suppose she knew she had everything controlled and didn't feel threatend.
If I do take S to a therapist, no doubt there will be severe hell to pay as it will be out of her control.
Please don't become bored. I'm here for insight and if you have questions please ask.
Bless you all
Alan
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Alan,
I just wanted to say that it is very clear how much you care for your D, and it really, really touches my heart.
There are no easy answers with an N - and boy does she sound like one.
I might try seeking out a therapist who specializes in children, and making an appointment to go see them. Explain the situation, but when you do, it is really important that you keep it as neutral as possible. Stick to the facts (my worry here is that if you express any kind of negative emotion against the mother, it may be used against you later in court if it ever came to that). Explain your worries, with the focus on your D's emotional health, and ask their advice on what to do.
If you end up taking her to a T. Brace yourself for the backlash, as I am sure that there will be one given your description of her. I would not be surprised if she tried to take this to the courts to punish you - so anything you can do now to prepare for that eventuality would be good (like hiring a really good lawyer, documenting any and all interactions by recording conversations [if this is legal in your area], and/or having a third party present so that she cannot lie and accuse you of violence against her).
I did not have therapy as a young child, but did in my late teens/early 20s - it literally saved my life.
My prayers are with you and your daughter. Please keep posting and let us know how both of you are doing.
Peace
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Alan, first - you are such a caring and responsible father! Your daughter is lucky to have you!
Second - I had some counselling as a child, teen and young adult. I think it helped immensely to feel heard and believed. I'm sure it made a difference, in a positive way, in my life and I would highly reccomend you find a therapist for your daughter (preferably one with knowledge of N-ism and Ns). It can be explained to Nmom that your daughter wants someone private and unrelated to talk about her pre-teen and teenage problems with.
Third - Are not the CPS the most useless bunch of #$%@&*#? around? They don't look for the truth and their investigation consists of doing all they can to proove that what they have been told is true (while they try to make themselves look like they are protecting children). And that judge!! Very helpful of he/she to just dismiss the case. Did it not dawn on him/her that a person who makes such allegations and goes as far as a court room and then can't get they're story straight has a problem? He/she sees no obligation to protect the child from that? Great system!! (Not!!)
Best to you Alan! Keep trying and most of all being a support for your daughter. I agree that documentation of every detail, from now on, is extremely important. If the CPS gets another complaint, they will come in blazing and you will need that documentation. If you have a friend you trust, having the person inital with the date, every so often, as a witness to the timing of your writings is also helpful (no one would be able to say you made it all up one night or any such thing). Also, keep receipts and staple them to the pages (if your daughter said something while you were eating lunch at a restaurant, for instance - keep that receipt. It is proof you were there).
Is emotional considered abuse under the laws where you live? If so, you might need to take action before N gets a chance. Get your child into therapy, get a written report from the therapist, keep accurate records of every useful detail to support your case, (you can even write a detailed account of everything your daughter has told you and everything that has happened up until now) and once you believe you have enough evidence, you might decide to make your own report to CPS, to protect your child from further emotional abuse. Getting good documentation is essential, whether you choose to make a report or not because if CPS gets another report about you, you will need solid documentation to disproove their allegations.
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Alan,
I'm sorry to hear that the system let you down before. Sadly, I think that is all too typical a scenario, because N knows how to play the system, which is already sorely overworked.
The judge ordered an evaluation for S and I think that it was your attorney's responsibility to see that the judge's order was completed.
So, at this point, if you choose to pursue therapy for S, I think it'd be very wise to have an attorney at the ready... one who completely understands the history of your dealings with N and is prepared for an onslaught of ridiculous, nonsensical allegations. Hell hath no fury like an N defied. She'll challenge you at every point you can think of... and some which would never occur to you or any other reasonable person.
My youngest - my son - is 11. He lived for 3 years under the shadow (in fact, that's what he called N - the shadow)of my NPD-ex (not his father). Thankfully, my son is full of imagination and thoughts and emotions and interests... and because of N, he also knows what it's like to have someone try to suck the very soul out of you. C was 7 when the shadow left our home. Within those first few days afterward, he said to me, "Mom, I know what "N" wanted... he wanted to try to steal our hope."
So Alan, please be sure to let S know that there is hope.
And I hope that you'll keep posting here... knowledge helps to bring all the subtleties of N into the light.
Hope
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WOW - This is all becoming so COMPLEX and I don't even see myself as a real victim, more as somewhat collateral. I have a few stories about the SRS and the Judge. The bottom line is ( according to my first lawyer, from that county). The courts standing rule is that children will have residential custody with the mother unless she is a convicted ax murderer. I appear before that Judge 4-5 times a week and I'm not going to make him mad at me. After the abuse charge I got a lawyer from my county who was on the County Child Advocacy
Board and was highly thought of by several people I talked to. Explained my situation and my desire to fight for custody. He was all gung-ho asked him if he had appeared in other county court before. Said no. Told him the Judge wasn't father friendly, he said shouldn't matter. After first hearing trying to get court ordered Eval for S, he immediatly began asking if I couldn't work out some kind of an agreement with the mother. I hope that explains the Court I have to deal with. And the fact that Lawyers don't like to lose before they start and that lawyers don't like to P.O. Judges. The documentation stuff sounds good. I tried that when S was very little and I still tried to talk to her mother. I wrote a log of the
things her mother said to me for about 2 weeks and they sounded so rediculous I didn't even believe them. An example would be- Went to moms' to pick up S (2 y/o) walked in and
her son G (8 y/o) ran up and grabbed me, PLEADING "Don't cut her hair off! Don't cut her hair off!" Asked him what in the world he was talking about. He said "Mom says your going to cut S hair off!" I assured him I wasn't going to cut S hair off! If you haven't figured this out, G had when I met him, and slill does today as I understand a OCD, I guess, where he plays with his and other peoples hair. Askd mom why she would tell G that and she looked me straight in the eye and said "I didn't. I don't know where he came up with that."
A question I would like to toss out. #1 daughter J (golden) I would never turn my back on. #2 daughter M (scape-goat) Have been buned by, so don't really trust. I figure the only way i will be successful in therapy or court is if another child rolls over on Nmom. #2 over the years has on occasion tried to tell me about Nmom, nothing very accusitory but things like "you have no idea of what it was like for us girls (J&M) growing up" - "I have no family because of the way my mother is" - On and on but never telling me what was so bad. She even wrote me a 12 page letter 7 years ago starting out "PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE,...... Don't let my mother know about this letter. She went into some detail about her mother and herself and G and S and NM treatment toward them. Thing is some of the stuff she said , I knew for a fact was a lie and the handwriting changed through out the letter like it was written by both M and NM. Does this sound possible?
Back to the present- Haven't had contact with M for years. About 9 months ago M and her kids (4) stopped coming to moms' S tells me. Last thing M said to mom was "MY PROBLEM? MY PROBLEM IS MY FAMILY!" No contact since. S misses them and mom said "they can come see us anytime they want" Last month I took S to M house for a surprise visit. Mostly to give M a copy of Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers. She told me she was done with her mother, that her mother owed her 4,000 dollars but her mother said she didn't because she bought diapers for M baby. (Years ago)
Do any of you think it's possible to get M to roll over on NM, or at least talk to a therapist honestly, or will she go straight to NM with what she knows?
Bless you all
Alan
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Alan,
My thought is that M (age 31) definitely could benefit from this board, for instance, if she's interested in exploring options for recovery from N-exposure.
Apparently she's already applied the principle of "no contact", but has she done this before with her mom and then returned to the same familiar pattern?
Does M seem to feel an attachment to her sister S? Has she expressed concern for the wellbeing of her siblings who are still in the home?
Personally, I don't like the sound of encouraging M into therapy, even if you were to cover the cost, with the objective of encouraging her to roll over on her mom.
Please don't take offense, but I think it's important to recognize that she's been used for the gratification of others throughout her entire life, you know? I mean, that's what N set her up for.
There's no telling how she'll react to an invitation to look more deeply into the damage which has been done...
denial? rage? depression? Please just be very cautious.
You've given M a copy of some info re: N Mothers. Maybe you could ask her whether she's interested in learning more?
At some point, you may even want to consider referring her here to this board...
but whatever you do, I hope you'll hold in your heart the knowledge that M and all of her siblings have suffered under this for a very long while now.
I'm just not sure that she's in position to be of support in your situation.... and she may not be equipped with the tools for that for quite some time.
In fact, at this point, I can picture M placing an angry call to N to say, "Aha, Mom! Alan is gonna get you good now!" ...and, next thing you know, you're bein sued for liable or harassment... or who knows what...
That's just the way of N :?
Hope
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Hope -Great insights and questions. Asking me things helps alot as my story is like a tree with a thousand branches, I can't explain one branch without reffering to ten others. I spied
on M and G myspace pages until they went private. The conversation was "I miss you G" "I miss you M" On and on. Never once a "Tell S hi and I miss her too". When we popped in the other day S went staight to her Neices and Nephew to play. M did not act happy to see S. Even less happy to see me. Tried talking to her about the papers and her mom. She never even looked at the papers, just held them. What she did talk about was how she wanted to "emancipate" G because her mother was so mean to him and never let him do anything. She said "Mom let us run all over when we were kids." (J&M) Never once mentioned S or that she needed to be "emancipated". Most likely why they both had 2 kids and quit school by 18, just like mom. S has always talked about how G gets to do whatever he wants and spends half (?) the nights at friends and brings a few friends home to spend the other nights. She doesn't even get to have friends. Mom tells G and GF and S she is going to take them to the movies tomorrow and the next day G and GF decide they don't want to go to the movies but rather go to GF house. Nmom says OK and haul them there. S asks Nmom, "Can we go to the movies?"--"No, Mommy can't afford it."
So, to answer your question, no, I don't think there is a connection. I also think G is filling M full of crap, allthough I didn't tell her that.
#1 J has been a vile, vulgar, I won't say worthless, dope head from our first meeting. She and Nmom have always been best buds. Not M/D--Best buds.
#2 M used to tell me that she wasn't like her mom and J. She didn't do drugs and drink and that she tried to do the best for her children. That was several years ago and after seeing her, she looked way too old for her age and maybe she really did have a million invisible spiders crawling on her. My guess is meth. She is like her sister and mom, needing man after man to support her and her kids. I have never met the one she lives with now but I can direct you to many alternative dating websites where they have ads for her to "Fullfill my mans' fantacy" by having sex with multiple partners while he watches and films. I don't care if that is her thing, but next to her naked pics are pics of her in a naughty nurse uniform taking her young sons temp. or pics of the "family " next to nudes of her.
Am I giving too much Info? Or is this one of the results of what she has been through? I think the ass is using her, or maybe she is a willing participant.
Bless you all
Alan
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Alan,
I'd say that both J and M are reaping consequences from two sources... their mother's lack of ... well - lack of everything parental - nurturing and discipline and guidance... as well as their own choices along the way.
And I certainly understand your fears for S's future... very valid fears.
It's difficult to imagine this whole scenario taking place with out a parent who's addicted to something... alcohol, drugs...
I don't know. Maybe you need a private investigator to gather more info on N.
My own fears in what you've described are on behalf of M's children, as well. Whether M is being used or is a willing participant,
those photos you mentioned sound to me like ample reason for investigation into those kids' welfare.
I do get the picture, Alan. Some of the dynamics you've described between M and G... with S being out of the loop... sounds like typical "teenage" stuff (except M is 31 :?). Sounds like they both are envious of S... like maybe they consider her the "golden" one.
Whatever's going on, it's certainly far from a healthy environment for a little girl and she definitely needs help to be able to overcome the influences under which I'm sure she's already struggling. If she's the compliant child, she has loads of questions and comments to which she doesn't even know how to give voice. S needs her place and permission to speak.
Hope
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Hope - The pics with kids didn't qualify as child porn, only tastless. The other day her kids seemed fine, only M had changed. As far as the mom and drugs and alcohol, I can't say.
I did meet her in a bar. She did ask me shortly after meeting if I did drugs. Told her no. She couldn't believe that I had never taken a bunch of pills and went on "vacation" for a few days. Only saw her drunk once when I had S (2 y/o) and she dropped S and G also off at my house. She was to pick them up at 7:00 pm and didn't show up till 11:00 pm. She said it was her birthday and the people at the bar threw a party for her. I had already put the kids to bed. She wanted to hang out at my house for 2-3 hours and drink coffee before she took them home. She didn't appear to be in that bad of shape so I said since their already asleep why don't you go on home and come get them in the morning. She jumped up, grabbed them out of bed and roared off. I have never seen her appear high on drugs but that's another of those subject where I have had alot of blips from others. You must understand that the only time I have seen her for the past several years is pick up and drop off and I rarely talk to her then.
The PI thing might work or it might be alot of money down the drain. I think all I would catch was her cheating on her husband who lives 125 miles away.
Do you think it's possible that S could be misleading me? I don't think so but I'm not real sure of much anymore.
Bless you all
Alan
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Alan,
I may be missing something here, but in your first post...you said that you were shocked by what S has told you
recently about her life with mom.
But I only see this one comment from you about what S may have told you (from your reply #15)
Quote: S has always talked about how G gets to do whatever he wants and spends half (?) the nights at friends and brings a few friends home to spend the other nights. She doesn't even get to have friends. Mom tells G and GF and S she is going to take them to the movies tomorrow and the next day G and GF decide they don't want to go to the movies but rather go to GF house. Nmom says OK and haul them there. S asks Nmom, "Can we go to the movies?"--"No, Mommy can't afford it."
Has S told you something else besides this?
Hope
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Alan,
I did not have therapy as a child, although I wish I had. My parents don't believe in that sort of thing, but I would have benefited greatly from it. I am considering taking my son, who is 10, to a therapist. He and I lived with my nmom since he was born and the experience was very negative for both of us. He has some real self-esteem issues, as do I, but I want to wait to see how our new living situation affects him before starting therapy. He doesn't like change all that much, so I don't know how much therapy will help him.
As for myself, I did see a counselor as a young adult, although my parents don't know about it. I was in college and away from home at the time. I found the experience very helpful. He was the first person who gave me an idea that the things my nmom told me weren't quite right. When I started seeing him, I was barely eating, had lost about 12 pounds in two weeks, and he threatened to put me in the hospital if I didn't eat. I made an effort to avoid that. I wasn't quite suicidal, but I was really depressed. He did help me find some direction and help through a really dark time in my life.
I do work with a therapist now, and I find it very helpful. I am looking for a good one for my son while waiting to see what sort of changes I see in him now that we are no longer under my nmom's constant control. I have seen some positive changes, and I see things we have to work on. It's really hard for me right now because I have so many issues that I have to deal with as well as what my son has going on.
Best of luck to you.
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OK - CB - I'm single, have been for years. Came across M ad 4 yrs. ago after she divorced. Have tracked her ad name since. It's a way of keeping in touch with out the other knowing.
I don't know that a PI won't find much. I don't have money to throw around on speculation. I do know that when I met her she told me she couldn't have kid because she had a hysterectomy after her sons birth. 2 months later she is pg and I ask her about the hysterectomy and she says the doctor wanted her to have one but she didn't. I didn't really care as I was nearly 40 and this was my only child. She seemed nice at the time , just a little weird. To shorten this story- when my daughter was born, I filled out the birth certificate registration card and gave S her first and middle names and left the last blank. Put down that I was the father. Gave the card to the mother and told her it would be nice if she had my last name. One month later I had received insurance paper on S Pedi. bill as I had put her on my insurance when she was born. All bills previous I paid out of pocket. Mom says , "I don't think you can do that." I said "what?" She said, "put her on your insurance." I said, "Sure I can." She said, "But she doesn't have your last name." I said, "That doesn't matter, I'm on the birth certificate as the father." She said, "No your not." That was the first big slap in my face and if I must admit it, It has pretty much been a bobsled ride to hell from there. Over the years I have found 4 other guys who were having sex with her at the same time I was. She was telling 2 of them that they were the father. It's all about SCAM, SCAM, SCAM with her. That is why I think I know what a PI will find. I had a crazy job when she was born but I spent 1-3 hours every day with her at her moms. Mom was fine with that but I could never take S outside where we could be seen by anyone. When S was 1.5 y/o I quit my job. filed for a DNA test to prove paternity. Yes, Mine. Joy! Go to court first thing mom does is wave her hand to judge. Tells judge I haven't seen S for 2 years. (Bear in mind S is only 19 mo at the time.) Tells the judge that I have never done any thing for S. (Bear in mind that I paid for everything concerning S to that point.) Tells the judge that S has a 700.00 ER bill that I refuse to pay from 3 mo. ago. Tells judge S got her arm caught in shopping cart at K-Mart and went into great detail about the crying and screaming and everyone trying to help and firetruck and ambulance arriving and how they saved S and how she was so upset she almost forgot to pay for her purchase and how the K-Mart manager wanted S and mom to go in the ambulance to the hospital and have S checked out but she said no, that she would take S to the hospital. Judge asked why I wouldn't pay the bill. I said that I didn't know anything about it
I then said that if something happened in the store, K-Mart would pay the bill anyway. The judge told me to shut up and sit down. Judge ordered me to pay 700.00 bill and I was fine with that. Asked mom if she had paperwork from hospital that I could have. She said no. Went to hospital, bill was 160.00 from when S was 9 mo. old. ER report says- ( month old who was apparently in a shopping cart and got her left leg and foot caught in between the wire mesh of the shopping cart, with some effort was extricated.
PHISICAL EXAM- Vitale signs stable, afebrile. Generally well developed, well nourished white female, happy, playfull. Very much in no distress. Exam is focused to the lower extremity. Showes mild erythmia to the medial and malleolar regiom of the ankle. Range of motion is intact. Direct pressure on the malleolar region produces no pain. Mother quite satisfied with care given. I called K-Mart and talked to the manager. He looked on their daily log for that date and had no entry of this incedent. She didn't know what happened to her child, where it happened, how it happened or what it cost to fix. She did know how to piss a judge off at a father. The problem is when you can't prove she is lying until 3 days after you've left court. The judge ordered mediation to work out a visitation schedule. Our mediator was a college intern, about 21, who was engaged and looking forward to being married and having children. In Kansas, court and mediation are two different horses, What is said in each can't be co-mingled. Mom told mediator that she loved me and since S was born spent every weekend at my house trying to get me to bond with S, but that I was mean to her and made her cry. Guess how that went. She plays people like their fiddles. Yes, I can go on and on.
Hope- S has always told me snipits. Now I am going to write book for you! No, not tonight. I'm tired. See you all tomorrow. Please don't doubt my intentions on this board. They are all good and they are all for S. I will never be able to relate to any of you on your level and I'm trying to prevent my daughter from being able to either. Your help is greatly appreciated. Bless you all Alan
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Okay, Alan... just reviewing the facts concerning S here...
She's isolated from friends, alone in a house with a mom who consistently lies, and a 17 yo half-brother with ocd who was fired from his first job for stealing.
Mom takes S to work with her, so there's no outside contact with anyone but you and those friends she gets to see while you have visitation.
When you try to talk to S about her desire to live with you, "she goes blank and won't say a word".
Just a few of my thoughts...
First, I'm not sure what difference this makes, but it seems to me that mom's description fits "Borderline Personality Disorder", with plenty of histrionic stuff tossed in... her description of the drama at Kmart when S was 9 months old, her lies to the mediator about how she tried so hard to get you to bond with newborn S... it just all sounds quite BPD to me.
And it sounds like S has now been sworn to silence... but under what threat?
At what age does the Kansas court begin to consider the wishes of the child in matters of residential custody... and are you prepared to have S live with you full time?
Mom has cut the fathers of her other children out of the picture completely, but she's allowed you to remain in contact...
do you suppose she's keeping S so close to her (taking her along to work, keeping her from friends) in order to shelter her from what she thinks "went wrong" with her other children? Or are you just the only dad who fought for his rights?
She wants all of her children to be the same.
Or does she?
I kinda doubt it.
Maybe she just can't/won't face up to the mess she's helped to create with the other kids but has no clue how to prevent it from happening to S. It's as though mom is trying to reinvent her own life through S... a sort of last ditch effort to do it right.
And you have hopes and dreams for S... your only child.
And then there's S, who needs to find her own voice so that she can be who God made her to be... which doesn't revolve around either redeeming her mother's lost opportunities or fulfilling her father's dreams, no matter how positive those may be.
Well, I don't know how useful you'll find any of the above, Alan, but I do see that, at some point, you'll have to make the decision whether to make an all-out effort to gain full residential custody of S... or make the best of the visitation you do have with this little girl and continue offering her as many opportunities as possible to be herself.
One suggestion... you may find some helpful resources through your local domestic violence center. Those folks take emotional abuse quite seriously. They may be able to connect you with a counselor who can relate to S at the level she needs right now. I'll be praying.
Hope
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Hey Alan,
Been reading this thread and I don't suppose I could add anymore wisdom to the discussion other than to say that if I were your daughter, I would want to find a place where I was safe. Safe from manipulations and judgements and threat. A place where I was understood and valued....meaning my personality, my pain, my feelings, my ideas. A place that didn't have shame and blame and proper balance of responsibility. I think that I could have benefitted from therapy when I was young and in pain. But it was only a piece of the puzzle. I wonder if your own education and your own ability to be a "counselor" for her might play a more profound role. A therapist can teach and support. But can't be a parent and can't give the kind of day to day attention to the situation like a parent can. I don't know your sweet D and don't know her specific needs but if I could change anything in my past, it would be to have one of the adults in my life (wouldn't have mattered who), create an environment that I could trust to be "clean" from all the confusion and mixed messages. A place that had an environment that would have told me I was loved and valued and needed and that taught me wisdom and helped me to focus on healthy growing up stuff instead of taking care of the adults in my life and blaming myself or thinking it was my fault. If I could have oriented myself to THAT and felt like I had a person and a place that was mine, I wouldn't be in so much pain today. Then, I think I could have dealt with my mother's dyfunction in healthier and more self-protective ways. Instead, I felt like I had to dismantle myself in order to make everybody happy. And no one was working towards my needs. (Not saying it well. Hope you get the idea.)
One more thing, the more that you can stay free of the N influence with boundaries and detachment, the better for your daughter. The N's seem to get so much control. Like with the courts. She knows how to work the system and the people in it. If you can become one of the people, she can't "work" then you become all the more "safe" for your D.
Much love and concern for your sweet girl,
mof4
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Hope - I have looked at BPD symptoms in the past and again today. Some I'm sure don't apply, several I don't have a clue, but the ones I do see are also crossover to NPD. When I first started trying to figure out what I was dealing with, I thought Pathological Liar, (with a very vivid imagination) but that didn't seem to fit with other quirks that I'd seen or heard.
I then moved on to Sociopath and Psychopath and I recognized more symptoms but not enough, (at least that I new of) and my feeling was "naw, that's not it". These searches were off and on over the years whenever she did something really weird. What brought me to NPD started in May this year. My Bday is May 6, the rural FD has a BBQ fund raiser every year
and for a few years now I have had S on that day and we have gone. She and I love BBQ, and it's more of a huge rural community picnic. She has a blast playing on the trucks and running around with the kids while the adults visit. This year the BBQ was on May 5, starting at 5:00 pm. I didn't have S that weekend but would have her all day for my Bday. Had S
Tue. before BBQ, when dropping her off I asked mom if I could have S Evening of BBQ instead of Bday as S enjoys the BBQ. Mom asked S if she wanted to do that. S said "yes". Mom asked when it was and I said it started at 5:00 and that I would like to pick her up around 4:00 - 4:30. Mom said, "I'll have to think about what time works best and let you know."
( In the 12 years I have known her, she has never made a normal quick decision, it's always "I'll let you know", "I'll have to get back with you on that", on and on.) 2:30 pm May 5
the phone rings, caller ID says it's the mom-Me-Hello Her-S DOESN'T WANT TO BE WITH YOU! Me- Why is that? Her- SHE JUST DOESN'T! Me -I thought we had plans, can I speak to her? Her- NO Me - why not? Her- she's at J house and I called her to see if she wanted to go to the BBQ and she said no. I said "fine" and hung up.Next Tues. I had S and asked her why she didn't want to go to the BBQ. All I got was a blank stare and no answer. I said mom told me you were at J house playing with A & H (S neices) 14 & 13 and that she called and asked if you wanted her to pick you up to go to the BBQ and that you said "no".Another blank stare. I asked,"Your mother did call didn't she?". S said "Yes, she just asked if I was having fun and to give the phone to J." She looked a little sad and said, "I forgot about the BBQ." I told her that was OK as long as she was having fun. Asked if G spent the weekend at J house too, she said no and that J had a really bad headache so she stayed in her bedroom all weekend.
May 22- Tues. dropped S off, reminded mom that S had dental check up May 25 at 3:00 pm ( mom has never taken any of her kids to the dentist, so I take S), it's my weekend starting 4:30 on the 25th, so I tell her that I need to pick S up at 2:30. She says, "I'll call and let you know". May 25- 2:15 pm, haven't heard from mother, so I call her. I remind her of the dentist appointment. She says, "SHIT, THAT'S TODAY? S said it was next Friday." She drops S off and we make it on time only to find out that we both need a filling.
May 29- Tues. dropped S off. Reminded mom that S had dental appointment June 1 2:00 pm (mine was at 3:00 pm). She gave me a dumb look and said, "You have her Friday, that's when your vacation starts." (9 days, 1st week of June beginning the Friday before at 4:30 pm) I said , "Yes, but her appointment is at 2:00, I'll have to pick her up early."
She said, "I'll have to call you."
June 1- Mom calls 1:00 pm, asks, "When are the appointments?" I tell her 2:00 and 3:00. She asks, "Which one is S? I say it doesn't matter and that S usually goes first. She says, "OK, I'll take S at 2:00." I tell her fine and figured that she wasn't going to let me have S until 4:30. (This would be typical) I get to dentist at 3:00, hoping S and mom would be there and that mom would leave S with me then. Nope, gone. Get done. go to the drop off/pickup place at 4:30, no mom and S. Waited awhile called her cell, someone answered and hung up, tried several more times, no answer, left message that I was at the Junction. (exchange point) Waited 45 min. (the grace period). Headed for home madder than hell!
Half way home she calls- Me-Hello Her-(laughing)"YOUR WHERE!?" Me-I was at the Junction but I'mon the way home now. My vacation was suppose to start today. Her-"That's what I thought too, but then S reminded me it doesn't until next week so I checked the paper work and she was right." Me-No, it starts today. Her-"Well, I'm sure it's next week. I'll
check the calander again and if I'm wrong I'll bring her right out to your house. Let me check and I'll call you right back." She never called back. I tried her a few times but her phone was shut off.
Blaming S, so blatantly, is something new. I was maaaaad and started searching for a reason she was doing that. Somewhere along the way I came across Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers and it was like, BINGO! It covered everything that I had witnessed over the years and some that I suspected. This was June 3.
June 5- Tues. Picked up S. Told her that I found something on the internet that might help her understand her mother. Got home and as I read and explained, her eyes were as big as silver dollars.
Hope - This is when she started telling me about her life with mom. As I read each section I would talk to her about it as most of the wording is way over her head, some over mine too. When I would get done I would ask her if mom was like that at home. Her response to the majority of the characteristics was "Uuuh, huh" (Yes)
2 Highlights were (1) She screams and yells at S and G a lot and says she is going to break their things. (In 12 years I have never seen her raise her voice to any of her kids.)
I asked S why her mom did that and she said, "I don't know" I asked were you doing something wrong? She said, "No." (2) Bathroom thing- when I got to that I just asked her if her mom ever looked at her poop or pee. She looked kind of shocked and said "no". I said the reason I'm asking is because when G was about 8 I was at moms' house sitting at the kithen table with her when G and one of his pals came blasting in the house and G went straight to the bathroom and closed the door. Your mom jumped up from the table and went in the bathroom, poor G was sitting on the pot and his pal started laughing and yelled," D (mom), WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!!" She never said a word, closed the door and stayed until they both came out. G never said a word and his pal and I just looked at each other. Mom sat back down and we went back to talking. It was weird, but to G and mom it seemed natural. About 3 years ago, mom called one morning and said she was tking S to the Dr. I asked why and she said that she thought S had a urinary tract infection. I asked why she thought that. She said that S pee smelled funny. I asked if she smelled her kids pee. She hung up. She did take S to the Dr. and she had a mild sinus infection. When I got the insurance paperwork there was a 30.00 charge for urinalysis lab work that the insurance wouldn't pay because it was a sinus infection diagnosis. The mom insisted the Dr. do a urinalysis test. After I explained these to S ,I asked if her mom watched her go to the bathroom. She said , "No.............she always comes in the bathroom." I asked her if mom always goes in the bathroom with G and she shook her head "Yes".
I would tell more but I've been here long enough!!!!
In Kansas the court will listen to a 12 y/o at the Judges discretion.
I doubt that I would ever get custody. In Kansas the law says that emotional and physical abuse are equal. It's all about the Judge, if he can't see the damage it doesn't exist unless a 3rd party professional can convince him/her. If S went to therapy and the therapist went, "Holy cow, I've got to get this kid out of there!!!!! JUDGE, JUDGE, JUDGE" The Judge
would take a look at the mom and her other 3 smiling, complacent, compliant kids and go, "No way, there must be a mistake here."
My concern is for S and less for custody right now.
"
mof4- Thanks, It's like I always tell S, "Your a super duper daughter, the best one I have!" She grins and says,"I'm the only daughter you have!" I say , "So, if I had 10 you would all be super duper daughters, the best ones I have!" I try not to be a "therapist" but I always try to explain things to S when they occur.
Thanks for your help Alan
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Alan,
I get it. I know it's an awful lot to try to type up and communicate, but what you've posted here certainly allows mom's patterns to become glaringly obvious. The control freakery is definitely abundant throughout :?
Re: the possibility of your gaining full custody... those three smiling, complacent kids may not be such great witnesses if your lawyer came to court prepared with character (or rather, lack thereof) evidence on each of them, but the whole thing would no doubt become a war of monumental proportions, during which your energies and *all your other resources could become so sapped as to render you of little support to S - which is what she really needs. Engaging N in battle becomes such a consuming project :? So yeah, revolting as I find the whole situation, I do get it.
With S already approaching a turning point in her life in so many ways, at her age... preparing to enter mid-school soon, I imagine, not to mention puberty... I think that Mof4 said it best, as far as what will most benefit S. I'd just be very cautious not to let the N word out of the bag, because as she does grow and begin using her voice, her mom will trace that directly back to you.
CB mentioned techniques that her sons learned, to deal with N games. I don't know what those are, eactly, but sure sounds like they'd benefit S !
Just wishing you both the very best, Alan,
Hope
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Alan,
Just one more thought with regards to therapy......
I think if you do pursue someone, I would be very picky about who I chose to see. One that is for kids, yes, but I would even research what their approach or school of thought is and then explore their therapy methodology. I think there are some spectacular therapists out there but I also think therapy can mess with a kids head and do even more damage.
--mof4
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HI - Hope & mof4 -I have a friend, female, who I worked with for 5 years. We became friends and and still are tho we haven't worked together for 8 years. She and S are friends and we have all done many things together over the years. She was fresh out of college and her parents were divorced. I don't know for how long but she and her younger brother lived with their dad. She would often be upset at her mother and things her mother said and did. I always figured it was some kind of fight thing between M/D going through the kids.
She always talked highly of her dad.
I called her a few days ago and when she answered, I asked if I could ask her a personal question. Sure. How are you getting along with your mother? I don't. Have you ever heard the word Narcissist before?..........yeah. do you think your mother is a Narcissist? Yes. I think S mom might be too. DUUUUU!! I could have told you that! I told her I was thinking about taking S to a therapist. She said I don't know if you knew but I've been seeing a therapist for 3 years. Coulda knocked me over with a feather! We talked awhile until she had
to go to work, but I asked if she would be interested in spending some time with S, give her someone she could relate to that she knows and likes. She said sure.
I would appreciate opinions on this. Should I be there or would that be uncomfortable for S. This wouldn't be "therapy", but like 2 people finding somthing in common to talk about.
Another question. Is facination with death something related to Ns?
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Alan,
I would give S private space with her friend...and with a skilled superb child therapist, weekly without fail.
I don't know if I'm right or wrong about this but I have a hunch that beyond the basics, her safety, and any overt issues you need to deal with....you might need to back off from asking S too much about her mother, and from discussing her mother's disorder in much detail with her. She needs relief from all the tension, and being transferred between her crazy mother and a father who's subtly grilling her might mean she has nowhere to turn, inside. That could be why she goes blank.
It just sounds like terrible internal pressure to me.
Again, I don't know if I'm right. But part of me is thinking your daughter is caught between a rock and a very hard place. Her mother is toxic but she loves her...and she loves you. Her psychic survival is at stake right now. If she's fragile, she might need you to help her relax and be serene and FORGET the drama when she's with you.
And you're a lawyer, right? Perhaps you might be bearing down too hard on your daughter's most vulnerable places in her pysche with your questioning...is that possible? It might be hard to realize how overwhelming it might be for her.
DO keep communicating and loving...I just wonder if there could be a boundary issue. It sounds both so grave and so potentialy invasive...is your daughter still laughing? Taking pleasure in life?
I'm hoping for strength and calm and much wisdom for you, and some ease for your daughter's broken heart.
Hops
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Hops- Thanks for the post, but shame on you for calling me a dirty name! NO, I'm NOT a Lawyer!!!!
I'm self-employed as a welder and steel fabricater.
My times with S are Tues. after school till 7:30pm, during summer 8:00am till 7:00pm Every other weekend 4:30pm Fri. till 4:30pm Sun. 1 week (9 days) June, July,August
This makes it hard to schedule some thing like therapy on a regular basis, unless therapists work on weekends. I doubt the mother would take her on her time.
Talking to S about mom or even mentioning mom has had a visible stress on her as far back as 2y/o. Even now, I can ask," what do you want for supper" I'll rattle off 5-6 things.
(I like to cook) She'll say, "no,no,no,no." I'll ask, "Well, what's your favorite thing at moms',I'll make that." She freezes up and won't say a thing. That is her reaction to many questions of this nature. I had favorite foods, games, toys, activities, on and on when I was a kid. It seems like she doesn't and that worries me. Surely asking stuff like that wouldn't stress her, but it seems to.
Thanks for the help Alan
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Hi Alan,
I like lawyers..I think.
I like welders and steel fabricators better, though. :)
Hmmm. I think therapy has to be Tuesdays, right after school. And then y'all have a nice supper together. Or bowling. Kid needs some laughter and stress relief.
Jeez. That really is a frustrating thought, that weekend parenting automatically is an obstacle to therapy for a child.
You hang in. Hope I did help...not sure, but I hope to.
Hops
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hops- I get what your saying- You must be from the big city where every thing is readily available. For me it's 25 mi. to school, leave school by 3:25 drive 30 mi. to closest town that I MIGHT find therapist in. Hour long session(?). 20 mi. back home, nuke a dinner, say hi, load up and 11 mi. to drop off. mi. is miles. Welcome to Kansas. Alan
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Alan,
You sound like you have good people around you that understand the N perdicament. I am happy for you. Sounds like a hopeful situation!!
best wishes to you and your D.
mof4
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mof4- thank you- This realization of Ns is new to me and scaring the piss out of me. My friend that I spoke of, during our conversation, asked if I remembered saying(I don't),"Be nice to your Mother, maybe you'll need a kidney some day","I would rather DIE THAN GET A F....ING KIDNEY FROM MY MOTHER" I was thinking to myself, "This, after 3 years in therapy?"
I'm sure everyone here understands this, it just makes me sad.
Over the years 99% of S complaints have been about mom lying, which I'd always known of. I always told her "You can pick your nose, You can pick your friends but you can't pick your family. Your mom is the only mom you'll ever have and you don't have to trust her or believe her but you have to love her.
Please tell me I didn't make things worse.
The friend also said the therapist won't say, "Yes, your mother is a N" I understand that the therapist can't do that, but got the impression that friend needed that to be a starting point to heal or recover or get better. Got the impression therapy was about how do you feel now.
Is this a good approach by the therapist?
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To tell you the truth, Alan, I am new to the N realization as well. And I have been scared at times. But you have less control than I do. That is scarier. My children aren't harms way the way yours are. And I am so sorry for that. That is why I say educate yourself as much as possible. Then you will be able to know what to say to her. You want her to respect the authority of her mother. All children, I think need that lesson. Maybe she will need a more specialized focus for how to still respect her mother but to still be able find healthy coping skills. Sounds like getting custody would be a battle. But, maybe it is worth it, depending on how destructive this mother could be. If she was getting sexually assulted, wouldn't you break down the doors to get her out?
Again, I am no authority and have so little formal education on this stuff. I just know how I would have wanted my dad to have helped me.
mof4
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mof4- Thanks for the post- I know what your saying, but you have compared something that is extreemly complex to something that's not. Both are horrifying, but both can not be "fixed" with the same degree of ease.
I am on here for Info, advice ,help, knowledge and support. I feel out of place on here as my situation seems so different from everyone else.
Fighting many battles to win the war is one thing, to lose the first battle and lose the war is another. I must be cautious.
The best to ya Alan
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Hi Alan,
I didn't want to just drop out of this discussion with you, but still... I really cannot comment re: therapy.
You mentioned that you have the impression that your friend's therapist is about "how do you feel now?" and you ask whether that is a good approach by the therapist.
I think that's a good approach for a Dad.
And I could not agree more with all that CB posted to you here this morning.
Most of all, I believe that you hold the keys to all that your little girl may have bound within her. Your love and tender attention and kind interest in who she is (how she feels, what are her dreams) is what can make all the difference.
Hope
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Dear devoted Dad Alan,
Everyone is offering such wisdom. My child was once taken (Iat age 6) to a sweat lodge by her father and soon to be stepmother, where she had to sit naked in a tent with adults of both sexes, was allowed out only after remembering how to pronounce a very long Indian word, and wandering around outside under the supervision of two young adolescents until she fell asleep in a field "on a blanket beside a baby somewhere" and came home covered in huge welts from insect bites, including on her genitals.
That does not compare -- it's just an illustration. Parental anxiety, we GET. And we know what Ns are. We can hear you.
I echo CB...please do see a lawyer.
And I'd suggest another step, I know it's inconvenient and radical but I feel this strongly that you can put in place some coping thoughts and skills that can save your daughter's future, and you are so engaged and committed that I think there's a chance you might consider it.
I would either:
1) move to a halfway point that cuts those mileages in half for your visits, even though it doubles your daily commute all the rest of the time, or
2) find a genuinely charming B&B or pleasant hotel where you can stay with her those weeknights, if one exists. (And I understand you are not in an area where it may).
I feel enormous empathy for you in trying to do what you can. It's like fishing with a broken hook and a prayer and very dark water. But I also am inspired by your fathering power and determination.
love
Hops
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To you all- You've given me a lot of good food for thought. Keep it comming!
Hope- Your impression that M and G appeared envious of S has been bugging me. I have been trying to organize what I know about their family dynamic.
I know that J and Nmom gang up on M. They have done this in front of me a few times years ago and I have seen it several times from the sideline since. Nmom takes and takes from M. Nmom gives and gives to J. I have never seen anything else. They were both "adults" when I met them.
G was 5.5 when I met him. Looking back I see now that his Nmom controlled every aspect of his being.
S I don't really know anything for fact as we were never a family unit. I have never seen S and Nmom in their real lives together.
I have talked to 1 of Nmom exBF after me and G put on the same "show". When Nmom was dating now husband, I saw the same show again when I picked up and dropped off S at her house. G was 11 then.
If G could manipulate adults thoughts and actions at that age at his mothers request, I'm thinking S could too.
S talked freely about G and idolized him until she was about 7. From then until about 9 her relationship seemed to decline. It went from idolization to he's mean to me to not saying anything about him. From 9 on I get the feeling she doesn't really like him. Never mentions his name unless I ask about him. I try to keep up with his life and ask general questions and usually get no answer or empty answers or she offers things like the cell phone. It's like she doesn't know anything about her brother at this point. I know she's 10 and he's 17, but I would think living together she would have something to say about G.
S has told me that G and Nmom argue a lot and maybe 4-5 months ago she said G told Nmom that she was "Cold-hearted" and S wanted to know what that meant.
S has showed very little normal emotion for her Nmom to me, good , bad, happy, sad.
I now this is skimpy info, but any thoughts on dynamics between Nmom, G and S?
Happy day to all Alan
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Hi all- This ties into my last post I think.
Since we started exchanging S at a half way point 5 years ago, this has puzzled me.
Nmom by herself in car- Walks S to my truck says good bye, sometimes "give mommy hugs and kisses." Dropping off- stays in car, doesn't even look at us until I'm putting S in her car.
Nmom with someone I don't know in car- It's a gross display of affection both times with a lot of "Princess" "Mommy loves you" "Mommy missed you" Nmom nearly runs to my truck.
Nmom with husband in car- Not gross display, but more what I would consider normal.
Nmom with J in car- Same as by herself.
Nmom with M in car- Same as with husband in car.
Nmom with G in car- same as with husband in car.
I get the "show" for stranger and husband.
Why a show off affection in front of M and G but not J?
Maybe I'll be struck by lightening today and figure this all out Alan
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Alan, re: the show of affection...
I think it's because J is viewed by mom as her "extension"... the one with whom she is most "herself" (whoever that is)... so there's no need to play-act. For the others, depending on how much she wants to impress them, she goes more deeply into the loving mommy role.
I've seen my mother switch "on" and "off" like this for years.
Creepy stuff.
Hope
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Hope, I reallty appreciate your help.
Is it possible that G has figured out his "real" mother? Maybe a few years back, when he started doing what he wanted and began rebeling against his Nmom? That is when he started spending a lot of nights away from home and bringing friends home. Maybe because he discovered that shielded him from his mothers behavior? G is a big boy about 6'4" and maybe she can no longer control him mentally or physically. I know back about the time his father left the picture. G told friends on myspace that he was moving. He never moved but now he doesn't have a father or that option to move. I also know that around the time M and Nmom seperation started S said G was at his friends house and they went to see M.
Nmom found out and from what I gather Nmom about blew the roof offf the house. I explained to S that adult siblings shouldn't have to sneak around to see each other.
It seems the Nmoms' clutch on S has increased at about the same rate it's decreased on G.
I always figured G got his way because he was favored.
M did say G told her he realized he would be on his own in a year and that he wasn't going to get any help from his mother.
Plausible?????? Alan
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Alan, you're welcome... I'm just wingin it at this point, really.
Growing up, my family life was all about control and lack of communication... not so much drama, with all the lies and such.
I was the compliant child in my family, with only 1 brother, 10 years older. He was/is the flamboyant, extroverted one who challenged all authority... and he left the home when I was 10, so I have very little memory of him there, other than the occasional temper tantrum he'd pitch, straight down on the floor, kicking and screaming... yeah, that was rather unforgettable. I'd say he had our mother figured out pretty well... enough to know that he needed to get away.
Anyhow, I have experienced enough teen angst and rebellion with my own children to know that a certain amount of that is typical... and most teens are expert at identifying and targeting parental weaknesses :) So yes, I think it's entirely possible that G has mom's number.
As a live-in witness to her behavior, and at his age (and physical presence/size) she may be intimidated by him and so she lets him run at will. But I'm not so sure he's the favored one... sounds like J fills that role in this scenario.
Seems to me that G is the odd one out, as the only son... and it sounds like he decided some time ago not to join his mom's fan club.
If he had, he wouldn't be saying that he expected to be on his own soon.
And, I'm sorry to say, it makes sense to me that S is the final pawn on mom's chessboard. From your description of how she behaves when her current husband is in the car, it doesn't sound like she wears the pants in that arrangement, but her need to control is bound to latch onto someone. When I think about S, I remember the sense of isolation I felt at home... because I was 10 when my brother married and left (not that having him around was any great bonus.. lol). But then I didn't have a place to go on weekends or anyone asking me how I felt about things... or what I might enjoy doing, either then or with my life... and I think - gee, it sure woulda been nice if someone had ever suggested that I actually could have a life :) So I'm glad that S has you.
Hope
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Hope and everybody on here-When you wing it to me, it's like having a cheat sheet handed to somebody who doesn't know the answers. I know I'm on here dredging up what you've been through but I know it's going to help me help my daughter.
I've read a lot of the threads and have thought about posting but don't really feel I should. Maybe one exception would be the the bra, hair,clothes and other things thread.
My daughters Nmom has made her wear a bra since she was 7.5 or 8. Sometimes a sportsbra, sometimes a training bra, most of the time a 32,34,36 A or B that look like wadded up
towels under her shirt. She is now in what I would call the "bump" stage. Very few of her clothes fit and most are 10 sizes too big. "That's why I have a belt, Dad."
You all have me wondering if I'm going to have to teach her about personal hygiene.
And sex.
May be a lot of flowers with bent petals on here, but together you make a lovely garden Alan
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Hi Alan,
I'm not sure how much "Health" education S has received in school to this point. My son is entering 6th grade this year and will have his first class of that sort. If you're not sure, you could ask her. By the way, how are her school grades?
But yes, I think that S will need much more info and help than the scattered, willy-nilly, inconsistent and confusing variety offered by N.
Here's a thought... http://grownupgirl.net/cart/ (http://grownupgirl.net/cart/)
You could take a look there at the books/kits available and consider which you might like to present to S...
and I think the sooner, the better.
And please don't be afraid about fumbling this... you can get help as necessary from a female friend.
Keeping it non-chalant and positive, always with the door open for questions and discussion... that seems like the main thing to me, because N tends to either ignore or blow up out of all proportion when it comes to this sorta stuff. Aim for calm, concerned normalcy and you'll make an impression that'll carry S through alot :)
Hope
Hope
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That's a great idea, Hope.
If S can have her own bookshelf and her own library at Alan's, it's going to be more her space.
(Just be sure to mix in FUN books like Harry Potter or find out what she loves...)
Hops
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That's a great idea, Hope.
If S can have her own bookshelf and her own library at Alan's, it's going to be more her space.
(Just be sure to mix in FUN books like Harry Potter or find out what she loves...)
Hops
That's a lovely picture, Hops. I don't know whether S enjoys reading, but I can't imagine anything cozier or more... contented... than a little girl with her own book nook :)
Love,
Hope
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Hope and Hops (kinda sounds like a dysfunctional frog doesn't it?) Grades? S finished 4th with a 3.88 GPA. (First year they use actual grades here) I'm hopig she continues to do well. Because of her other family I have expressed the importance of education to her. I have always asked if her mother does "homework" with her and it's always been "no."
Not even ABC cards or math flash cards. Even spelling list that were sent home, mom would have her go over the word the morning of the test before she went to school. I explained to S that was great for short term recall, but you didn't learn the word. In 4th, this past year, she asked her mom for help with math and mom said,"I don't get it." S loves to read and she has several Scholastic Reader books and maybe some of you have noticed this too, the grammer in a lot of those books "sucks" for a child learning to read. One of S big joys is when I get a new Readers' Digest Condensed Book because she knows she will get to read with me in my bed at night and partake in a big bag of Peanut M&Ms. I have always known that S didn't have any personal posessions at her mothers' (everything is "ours") (Is this common?) So at our house, you could say that she is fully "complemented" with her own stuff. Yes, she has books, bookcase and fun bookmarks!
I had S today from 8am to 7pm. To give you an idea of our time together we started with Biscuits & Gravy and Banana Cream pie (It's alway good to have fruit with breakfast) (Right?) Went fishing until before lunch. (Been taking her fishing since she was 2.5) (We keep Bass, Catfish, Bullheads and release in our ponds at home.) Sand I like salads, so went to a local greenhouse and got tomatos and cucumbers to go with lettuce, cheese, potato salad, cottage cheese, Ranch for her and Thousand Island for me. I showed her this Board and told her that I'd been talking to several grown ups who had Ns in their lives and that they had really helped me understand what that was like. I told her that i had a thread on here where I had been talking about her and her family, but didn't show it to her. I did read her some select posts from the "Learning about sex from Mum" thread.
Mostly on clothes ,hair and bras. I talked with her in general terms about mom,sisters and brother and how they all interact. All of this ate into her swimming pool time about 1 hour and it didn't bother her at all! I think for once that I have been able to talk to her from a point of understanding and not just saying there's something wrong with Mom.
She actually was interestd in what I had to say and what you all had to say to each other. It sort of took the "You don't have a clue what your talking about,Dad." aspect out of the conversation. She still got 2 hours at the pool.
I told her that I had three questions I wanted her to answer real fast. "Do you love your Mom?" Yes "Do you want your Mom to love you?" Yes "Does your Mom love you?" No
She looked shocked to hear herself say that. I had her ask me the same questions and I answered yes to all three. We talked about M and how she had kept coming back to mom and being hurt. (She has seen this and realizes what is going on but doesn't know why. I explained that J, M, and G were like her, they all loved Mom, wanted Mom to love them but weren't getting what they wanted and needed.
For supper we grilled hamburgers and had corn on the cob. S shucked and cleaned the corn, set the table, poured the milks, got all the stuff out of the fridge, put the burgers on
the buns, tomato, relish,ketchup.
I was outside grilling and when I came inside between flips , she had the table all set and had done a very thorough job of it (not typical), she said with a big smile on her cute little face, "I did a good job didn't I, Dad?" I said, "Why yes, I believe you did!" After we ate ,she said that I had fixed a great supper and I told her that she fixed most of it. After reveiw we agreed it was a 70%-30% effort in her favor!
She always sets the table and we always fix our meals together and it's always fun. I would say the meals were always good , but I sorta remember something about some stuffed green peppers, maybe a few other things!
My point being, for some reason she took exceptional pride in what she'd done and went fishing for a little extra acknowledgement, which I was more than happy to do!
I believe that all of you haved helped me work with S on her level and terms for a change, and I sincerely thank you.
Bless you all Alan
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Alan,
Feeling a bit froggy here, actually... but this too shall pass :)
Sounds like S is highly motivated and an excellent student... that's very encouraging. And she (and you) have one more year before mid-school, to build up a sense of self - identity, confidence, resistance to peer-pressure and all the rest.
You may like to make regular trips to the library a part of your visitation routine and ask the librarian for assistance re: books that may interest S and present her just the right amount of challenge with reading. Usually the kids test to determine their reading grade level... that info would be helpful to the librarian.
Your description of your time together sounds lovely.. and I can't think of a better outdoor activity for a child and parent than fishin!
It's clear from what you've said that S really valued the time you took in discussion... a kid doesn't give up an hour at the pool for just anything :)
I am a bit concerned that she may mention something to her mom about the things you've discussed and put N onto red alert... but I feel that's a worthy risk, considering all that you can accomplish through this open talk. My own mind is zooming in so many different directions right now that I struggle to think of other topics which may be of benefit to you both. My youngest daughter hasn't been 10 for 6 years... and all three of my girls have such different personalities, there really is no set formula for action. But I absolutely agree with you about talking from a point of understanding... understanding your daughter and her needs, not focusing on mom and her complications.
Now that S has made the startling observation aloud - that she doesn't feel her mom loves her... do you think it would be good to ask her what she feels are the ways a mom would show love? Let her identify those to herself?
I can see how that may help her to understand that there are most definitely people who cannot, will not meet our needs... but that doesn't mean our needs are wrong or that we are unworthy... you know?
I need to run, but saw you were on Alan and wanted to at least touch base with you. I'm so glad that this is helping... and I'd only caution again that "N" not become a part of your daughter's vocabulary right now.
Take care,
Hope
P.S. on edit... Just wanted to add another thing that's been a great help to each of my children through the years... learning an instrument.
Either in 5th or 6th grade, depending on when the beginning band began where we've lived, each has participated and really benefited from the experience.
If S has an interest, the learning/appreciation of teamwork and discipline/accomplishment of playing an instrument can really bolster a young person and prove to be a wonderful outlet for expression.