Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: spyralle on July 29, 2007, 11:04:10 AM
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I was posting this in craziest statements but I thought it warranted a post of it's own
Sex education NMum style:
On protection....
Mum: What are those... Pointing to a packet of condoms.. (I was 19)
Me: But they are yours. I found them in your drawer
Mum: Yes this is because your father always carries one in his top right hand pocket. They hold a gallon of petrol you know!!!
On sex...
Nmum: Women are just dirty receivers for men..
On periods:
Nmum: This is where you start to become unwell...
So ok I grew up a flat chested demon possessed dirty receiver.... only a slight handicap I guess..
Any more
spyralle x
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Here's a few from my NMum (your Nmum's long-lost sister, I think):
On sex education (AFTER I'd been told all about it at school, fortunately):
Men are just awful, keep away from them (Note: This from a woman who had affair after affair after...)
On periods (on the first day I started, after the school had rung her to let her know I'd started whilst at school that day):
I'm so sorry!!!
On birth control:
Don't do anything stupid, will you?
On marriage:
All men are as bad as each other. Just don't get married.
On children:
Don't have children. They make you ill, they make you old, they make you poor, they make you miserable. (Thanks, Mum! :))
Janet
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Mine had a bit of a different take:
On the changes to my body that I was going through as I developed into a woman: Nothing
On sex education: Nothing
On periods: Here is the box, then nothing.
On birth control: Nothing
On marriage: "If you don’t shape up, you will never CATCH a husband. Is that what you want, to be a dried up old spinster? What man would want you anyway? "
On children: "I hope you have 2 just like you."
Peace
(I can laugh about it now – thank god!)
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On sex-I was so ignorant I had no idea about the anatomy of the mail body. The first time I was with a guy I was shocked. Without going into graphic detail, I did not know anything! My mom just did not let me in on any of it! It was always considered a secret. Just like she never told me God is love, she never told of Sex was wonderful between two loving adults. Even today it seems dirty and naughty.
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Well, I don't recall any comments...ever. But here's the story of the education I received from my old-fashioned ( ?), sexually repressed ( ?), self-centered ( !!), extremely N'ish mother. And I hope you don't mind a true story here, since there are no memorable quotes to record. Anyhow, here goes...
At about age 12, she gave me a little booklet she'd gotten from Kimberly Clark company, I think it was... with diagrams of the female anatomy and a description of the changes which take place at puberty.
Actually, I don't think she gave it to me. Seems like I found it in my room, where she'd left it. It came along with a little packet of sample products.
Anyhow, I poured over that little book and thought... Wow! Interesting!
Just the way she'd handled the whole thing let me know that this was a forbidden topic, along with so many other forbidden topics.
(Asking about anything was out of the question, because even just a simple "why" implied some doubt that mother's way might be questionable, which brought about an immediate cold-shoulder.)
So... it never occurred to me to ask any questions and she never asked whether I had any.
Nearly 2 years later, I actually started my period, while at brother and sis-in-law's home for a dinner. At least I knew what was going on.
I told my mother (wish I could remember what she said...) and she discretely turned the matter over to my sis-in-law, who was kind enough to provide the necessary supplies. Still, never any discussion, just... always on my own with the implication that this wasn't something a dignified person would ever mention.
There were a few tampons in that sample box, but I couldn't use then, and I had no idea why, nor did it occur to me that the reason why would become obvious the first time I tried to have sex.
Mother never took me to a doctor, so there was no opportunity to discover my particular situation.... so - my first sexual experience came along with a horrible, bloody mess, 2 trips to the ER, and multiple stitches. Still she didn't say a word. (I know she saw all the blood on my clothing. I don't recall trying to hide it, although the whole thing is rather blurry.)
Years later, when I had my third daughter, it was immediately obvious in changing her diaper that her vaginal opening was covered by skin. Her pediatrician told me that this flap of skin may or may not change/disappear over time.
So... my mother knew I had this, but she never told me.
I vaguely remember hearing that, as an infant, my urethral passageway or whatever you call it had been covered over, requiring some procedure to remove that skin so that baby-me could urinate. Guess they didn't open the rest... and, what, she didn't notice? She didn't think it would matter to me? She hoped it would go away or if I suffered some consequence from it, then that was my problem? I don't know what she knew or thought... probably not much, since it didn't revolve around her... but I have told my daughter about her own situation so that she'd never have to wonder or suffer. And to this day, I've never discussed any of this with my mother. What would be the point? She did "the best she could". Maybe she was going to tell me about it the day of my wedding? heh. If I put myself into the position of finding out before that day, then... my bad.
But behind all of this is alot more than being "old fashioned", I know.
Behind it all seems to be the over-arching principle on her part to protect herself, regardless of how her methods of holding together her image might impact me.
So I see that a person can be just as hurtful and neglectful in what she/he doesn't say, as in what actually does come out of her/his mouth.
I'm "old-fashioned". I do hope and pray that my daughter will wait until marriage to have sex... and she knows that. She also knows that it's her decision when to have that physical barrier remedied and that I'll support her in that choice.
I'm glad for this thread, because it's time that I remind her of that and assure her once again that my interest is in protecting and supporting her, not in controlling her or molding her into some image of... mock perfection.
Thanks again for this thread. Helps to review this in context of everything else I've come to "see".
Love,
Hope
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Hope,
I'm sorry you had to go through all that. I can see how you're so much better a Mum to your daughter than yours was to you. You really are providing such a good role model to your own daughter, even though you didn't get the opportunity to learn it from your own mother.
Janet
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I have to say I grew up a confused mess, thinking sex was wrong, lacking in any self respect and feeling so guilty everytime I did it. It is difficult Hope isn't it when you have a child and you so want to get it right for them. With my daughter I just used to talk to her as openly as I could and answer any questions she asked honestly. It was hard sometimes but I wanted her to know everything the good and the bad and then she could make informed choices, rather than uninformed coices like me.
I had benn basically told I was bad and rubbish etc so I went out into the worl trying to please and then if I slept with someone because let's face it I had no self respect, I felt horrible and dirty.
I think the best think we can give our children is bucket loads of self esteem huge amounts of love and complete honesty.. Then at least they are armed.
Spyralle x
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Janet, Thank you.
It seems like my role-modeling was all by instinct during most of those years, and it hasn't always been consistent... or positive.
I mean, I certainly have set an example of how NOT to leap into relationship, as I did with NPD-ex... how not to use alcohol to numb emotions... how not to be religious...or irreligious... and yet my life before my children has been as honest and as far removed from the example set by my mother as I could possibly achieve. Maybe that was my subconscious goal all along - to shatter that mold - - sure don't remember ever making that my life's mission.
Anyhow, for the first time, I can look back on all this from 25 years ago and feel that sense of abandonment. Before I just ran from it, but never allowed myself to feel it outright. And now it's only an ancient shadow... and somehow hurts alot less knowing that, for the most part, I haven't repeated the trend with my own children. Thanks again for your validation (((((((((Janet))))))))
Spyralle,
Yes, me, too... I thought sex outside of marriage was wrong. I also thought of it as one major experience I lacked in order to feel like something other than an odd-ball... a real human being... so I chose very deliberately to get it out of my way by doing it, with no enjoyment at all, just something checked off my "to-do list". It was an unknown I felt I needed to conquer. Then the guilt was so bad, I married the guy. Figured all that mess and pain after sex was my punishment...And nobody said a word. Then I divorced him because he was a bum... and still, nobody said a word. Honestly, I wasn't too bright. Naive just doesn't even begin to cover it. There were so many things I just didn't "get". Before all that even, I'd had some friends, just a few, over to the house. We were in the basement, just talking... I don't think I'd ever even really kissed a guy at that point. But it was late, maybe midnight.. and I went upstairs to the bathroom near my parents' bedroom... and my dad called me a slut.
Okay... so that's what being a slut is... having a few friends over once. If you say so, Dad. Like I said, not too bright.
And now, you know, I don't even know who that person was that was me back then. Just another shadow.
So I've told my daughters bits of that little story, just so that they would know that sex isn't something they need to cross off their "list" in order to feel human and complete.
((((((Spyralle))))))) bucket loads of self esteem, love, and honesty to you.
Love,
Hope
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(((((((((((((((((Hope)))))))))))))))))) Thankyou... You just made me cry... because it is days like this when I realise how special this board is and how much we help each other. What did I ever do before!! Even though I come and go I always know you guys are here.
Spyralle x
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Spyralle,
Can I *tweak* this thread a little, and ask you how your NMum related to you, with regards to clothes? You said on another thread that she cut your hair short like a boy when you were little. That sounds like she was having problems with your femininity, even when you were tiny.
My NMum wasn't too bad until I reached puberty at age 12. Then, she started to buy me boys' clothes. She used to go shopping on a Saturday, meeting up with her girlie friend for the afternoon. She usually brought something back - but when I got to around 12 (and we certainly weren't going to be allowed to have a clothes allowance!) she starting bringing things like shirts that did up the boys' way, brown and dark green things, yucky colours, not me at all. The fashion then was for ice-cream colours of soft pinks and blues (early Seventies), and quite frilly in a laura Ashley kind of way.
But she got me brown corduroy trousers, and stuff like that. I was mortified. But she said that I was ungrateful, and that if I didn't like the stuff, I could take it back - only I had no money for the bus fare, and she didn't keep the receipts. She WANTED me to wear crap stuff. At that time, she also went overboard on buying my younger (Golden Child) sister very frilly, girly clothes, rubbing it in even more.
I developed anorexia while I was 12, and it lasted till I was 24 (when I left home and got away from her).
The lasting effect on me has been that I feel really uncomfortable in 'feminine' clothes, beacause I feel like I'm faking it. I wear trousers most of the time. I make nearly all of my clothes now, but I still find it difficult to wear the 'nicest' stuff that I make - it just stays in the wardrobe.
Hope - my Mum called me a slut several times. It's an awful name to call anyone, but to call your daughter it...UGH!!
Janet
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Hi Janet,
My mother tried to strip all femininity from me as well. I was forced to cut my hair very, very short, wear boys clothes, etc... She would constantly tell me I was fat and that I needed to lose weight (I was not fat). That my hair was a mess. I was constantly put down - and everything was a fight. I could say the sky was blue and she would say no, it is light blue, I could respond you are right it looks light blue, and she would immediately turn around and say no it is blue - used to drive me batty.
I can remember the time we went shopping to get my first bra. Well, just getting her to take me to the store to get the bra was a major fight. Once we got there I picked a bra that snapped in the front - aaannnnddd she starts. In that nasty, mocking, snide tone of voice, in the middle of the store, exclaiming that those kind of bras are only for nursing mothers and aren't for young girls.
Well, the sales lady heard her and came over and asked if she could help. My mom starts in, she wants to buy this bra, but these are only for nursing mothers, on and on,.....and the sales lady looks at her and says, no all the girls are wearing these. My mom turned bright red and started sputtering, literally sputtering (I am surprised she wasn't foaming at the mouth).
The sales lady turns to me and says come on I'll show you some more that come in lovely colors. She stuck by my side in that store and even carried the bras up to the counter when we were finished. (I think she was trying to buffer me from my mother while she could.)
My mom never shopped there again.
WHO CARES WHAT KIND OF BRA I WANTED - WHY DID EVERYTHING HAVE TO BE A MAJOR ISSUE. IF IT HADN'T BEEN BECAUSE IT CLOSED IN THE FRONT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BECAUSE IT WAS SATIN INSTEAD OF COTTON - aaaaarrrrrrgggggghhhh
Sorry, little anger there, it was a really minor incident, but one of millions of minor incidents.
I also just wanted to say that I am so sorry you all had mothers like this, and I am so very thankful that this board is here.
Peace
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You guys have all been through so much! My heart breaks for all of you and these messages against your womanhood and your esteem and your understandings. I am so so sorry!!
mof4
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I got my period at nine. My M looked at me in disgust. Later she said that only peasants get their periods early.
I had large breasts as a little kid . I remember being so ashamed of them that I had a system to look flat chested. I pulled them down flat with a tight undershirt, then I wore a loose blouse. I had one blouse that did the job really well. I would not take off this blouse. I remember that it had dirty hand prints from trying to make it stay flat,but I still would not take it off..
In the summer, I wore a blazer, even in the heat b/c I was at camp and I was so ashamed of my breasts. I remember one day, they were playing softball. The counselor said,"Don't you want to take that blazer off?". I said,"No, I am just warm blooded." Love Ami
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I remember I got nothing from my mom. NOTHING. She did by me a box of pads and told me if I started my period when she was out of town to use these.
I remember I lost my virginity to a guy who I was deeply in love with. I was 17. He brought me to Planned Parenthood and I got on the pill.
My mom found my pills in my drawer at home. She asked me what I was doing with these. And I said, "What are you doing looking in my drawers!!" I tried so hard to set boundaries when I was young. I really kind of had it going on (expect for the extreme guilt she would throw on me) but then my husband and I went to college and she paid my way and his and suddenly I felt so obligated to her that I allowed her to run my life.....stupid!
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Peace,
I'm so sorry for you. It sounds like you had a lot of the same rubbish as I had. When you put: "Sorry, little anger there, it was a really minor incident, but one of millions of minor incidents."- actually, it WASN'T minor. Do you remember how it felt to be at the stage of needling your first bra? When I was at school, for about a year or so it seemed it was ALL we talked about! It was such a big deal! When to get a bra, how to ask your MUm to let youhave one, where to get one from, what brand...It went on and on. And then to have a mother who shows you up at the time you REALLY need support (sorry for the pun) over this!
My Mum was given two bras for me by a neighbour, after her daughter had grown out of them in a couple of months - but my Mum was scathing about me needing them (they were something like a 30A). But when I put one on, she kept calling me 'pointy boobs'. Sure didn't help! :?
Janet
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And what if a mother lovingly validated and affirmed you as you approached womanhood?
Amazing notion... :(
Hops
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Hops,
Oh, wow! Wouldn't that have made a difference?! I've seen those books for mothers to give to their daughters, and for pre-teens to work through together, to celebrate life changes. I always think they're wonderful things, and wonder what motivated the authors to write those. A good experience when they were around 10, or...?
I had a friend when I was about 12, who, when she started her periods, her father took her out to dinner, and her mother gave her a huge bunch of flowers! I thought that was lovely.
Janet
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This is a topic that always makes me angry. My mom never talked to me about any of this, never. When I was about 12, she bought me book and said I could ask questions. When I tried to ask questions, then she got mad and huffy because I asked questions.
On the subject of first bras, I remember that my neighbor had given me some bras that her daughter had outgrown, training bras. I wasn't allowed to wear them. They were put in the drawer until I was "ready." I was pretty much flat chested. All the kids at school were wearing them, and I wanted to too, so I got them out and started wearing them. My mom had a fit because I did that.
When I started my period, I was too embarassed to say anything, because we hadn't really talked about it. There were two pads in the house and tampons. Then my mom got mad because I hadn't said anything, and she would get huffy whenever she had to buy me pads. She kept pressuring me to use tampons, but I have never been able to wear them.
As for the topic of sex itself, it was never, ever discussed. Topics of sexuality were taboo in my house. We didn't mention those. My mother never talked about birth control with me. She never talked about dating. She never talked about relationships, mostly because all of her relationships sucked.
When I got pregnant, she said, "What about all that birth control we talked about?"
First of all, we never talked about birth control. Secondly, we never talked about sex. My sex education came from books, porn magazines, and the few friends who weren't embarassed to talk about it. I knew how things worked, but I wasn't strong enough to stand up to my boyfriend when he pressured me for sex.
Janet, I've read about parents who celebrate their children's budding sexuality, and that's what I want to do for M. I know it might be kind of hokey, since he's a boy, but still, I think it's important to do that. We haven't sat down and had the big sex talk yet, but we've had little ones. I had gotten him a book so that he could read and ask questions, but we were still with my parents then, and my mother disapproved greatly.
Now, if I could just get him off the whole, "that's the way girls do things" stage he's going through, we'll be in good shape.
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Tayana,
I think that's a great idea 'even though' he's a boy. If only more parents were like you...
Janet
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I validated and affirmed.. When K started her periods we had a welcome to womanhood party.... it was such an awful time for me, that I was determined she would not go through the same. We discussed tampons and towels and condoms and stds.. We explored the good the bad and the ugly... When I was young I was so naive... The awful drama of when I first used a tampon with no one to ask how still haunts me... sex was evil.. periods were an illness and yet my mother was very overtly sexual in see through blouses and sunbathing openly in black underwear with red fringes... I was completely confused.. My therapist talked to me a lot about double bind theory or paradoxical communication:
'In a relationship where an individual is dependent on another or other for physical and emotional survival, the effect of paradoxical communication is devastating'..
My mother was a prime example
Spyralle x
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Hi Spyralle -
I am so sorry you had a mother like that - I had a pretty bad tampon fiasco as well. I too make it a point to be as age-appropriately honest to my daughter as I can when she asks questions. Sometimes I think that the only good that can be said about mothers like these is that they teach us how not to raise our children!
Janet -
You are right, it was a major incident. I do remember the excitement about getting my first bra, how all my friends were talking about it, how everyone was envious of those who got one, and those who were lucky enough stood tall and pointed to their bra straps showing through their shirts. It was a coming of age moment - that was once again destroyed by my mother.
Although in some ways, in my life, it was a minor compared to the other stuff that went on. Because of this, I sometimes fall back into assuming that everyone had mothers like this - and that it was all just a part of life. I think it may be another layer of denial - I am having a tough time accepting that no, not everyone had mothers like this.
Thanks so much for noting this and the validation.
I am so sorry you too had a mother like this - they always found a way to make the most innocent of moments into a negative didn't they?
Peace
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no education here either.
I wet the bed so I had to sleep with my mother, as the 3 sisters kicked me out of the sisters' room--didn't get in there until about age 14.
..........Except I always figured when something was up, so would sneak in and snoop when I had a chance.
I found the kotex pamphlet and the Kotex and put 2+2 together but got 5 at first.
I also found the True Confessions magazines and thought those stories were true. So naive.
Then at 15 I finally had a chest and my period arrived. I said to mom, "I've got my period now, in case you're interested." She answered with"Good! Now we know nothing is wrong!" Sheesh!
Got sex education from my two older sisters who heard it from eldest sister's friend's Aunt--Well it was scrambled when it reached me, at AGE 5
Then at 17 I was in the big city working and more sex eduucation from the movies---when a couple fell in love, or not, but were 'getting it on"--the camera suddenly panned to a fireplace or the moon or a rainy window.--Sure told me a lot!
Izzy