Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: axa on August 03, 2007, 06:19:57 PM

Title: Weird or what!
Post by: axa on August 03, 2007, 06:19:57 PM

I posted some weeks ago about feeling guilty because I felt I had abandonded my Nfather.  I saw him as the victim who was abused by my N mother.  I cut off from him when I was a teenager and had little to do with him for the rest of my life.  I would meet him but would rarely engage with him and did not go to see him before he died.  I just could not bear it.  In my therapy I realised that I felt guilty for abandoning him and not saving him from my Nmother.

Knowing this unconscious guilt now I see why I have been so attracted to Nmen.  Trying to save them, not abandoning them, loving them so that I can resolve the issues of abandonment I felt towards my father.

Well, here is the weird thing.  Occasionally I think of XN and feel guilty that I have abandoned him also.  The adult part of me is 100% clear but that young part still feels guilty at times.  What if he is not ok?  What if he is suffering etc.  When in adult mode I could not care less but there is something going on underneath that is very much tied up with the guilt of being the one who left.  I know I have to work through this because it makes no sense whatsoever but it is still there.  Like I am the BAD ONE!  I drove him back into the arms of his crazy xwife.  I realise that it had nothing to do with XN and I have replaced him with my father.  I really want to get beyond this because this is the hook for me.

HELP

Axa

Title: Re: Weird or what!
Post by: Gaining Strength on August 03, 2007, 06:29:58 PM

I'm not sure how to help but I think you are farther along than you think.  Figuring it out is a significant step.  I have  been identifying some similar issues but dealing with my mother.  I think you are really on to something and I am going to spend some time thinking about this. - your friend - Gaining strength

Title: Re: Weird or what!
Post by: Certain Hope on August 03, 2007, 06:35:45 PM

Dear Axa,

Some of what you're expressing here is tangled up in my own situation with my elderly parents and I haven't quite puzzled my way through it.. yet.
I've married men who appeared to me to be like my Dad in many ways... or at least NOT like my very N'ish mother... and at least one of them turned out to be NPD.
I only wonder in what you've described... are you sure it's guilt related to what you perceive as having abandoned your father?
Or might your attraction to N-men be more about your mother... trying to prove to yourself that you could do what she never did accomplish... to love a man out of his self-absorbed NoNseNse?
I think that may be what I've done  :?  but it may have nothing to do with your circumstances... I dunno.

One thing... when npd-ex was removed from our home and placed under a restraining order, he (deliberately, I am sure) left behind his diabetes meds. The man takes shampoo and everything else a person would need, but not his meds? uh huh. So... I was so worried about him and felt so responsible, that the lady from the women's shelter who'd helped me put me in touch with Adult Protective Services, so that they could look into his wellbeing and see whether he'd be able to take care of himself.
Well, of course he was perfectly fine. Just all part of the role...

(((((Axa))))) wish I knew how to get off that hook.

Love,
Hope

On edit... Having trouble making sense of this here, like one of those "tip of the tongue" deals... but I'm thinking that if you really take a good, realistic view at who you would have become - if you had stayed - the guilt will leave.

Title: Re: Weird or what!
Post by: isittoolate on August 03, 2007, 07:16:10 PM

When I try to put everything into perspective, I find that I am for the underdog--whether it's life, hockey, baseball or whatever.

I always felt like the underdog and wanted someone to be on my side.

So I am on the side of the underdog, so when an N came along into my life, I felt badly for him and I felt we had so much in common we could work together on ourselves and we would be equal--maybe not totally mentally healthy, but equals.

His mask dropped after about 6 months       and I was back to being the underdog, with this strange person raging, and controlling and startling/surprising me with words and deeds I  had never even known about.
================================================
As I wrote that, I cannot really remember him  in the first 6 months because that person does not exist. He disappeared like a puff of smoke.

And now, 5 years after leaving him, even the insanity of it all has mainly left me.

I am here to put myself together and not talk, in detail, about Ns.

Love Izzy

(http://www.slrkelowna.ca/bc-flag.gif)

Title: Re: Weird or what!
Post by: WRITE on August 03, 2007, 07:39:46 PM

my therapist says we repeat patterns and try to resolve the issues and anxieties they created 'this time'.

At least you're only doing this ina  slight way in your head with guilt feelings now, that's progress.

there is something going on underneath that is very much tied up with the guilt of being the one who left.

Axa i have a problem leaving anything: jobs, roles, relationships, even home some days!

Now I see it as projection of my abandonment despair, and wanting desperately to be taken care of as a young child, which I replaced by fiercely ( often self-destructively ) taking care of others.

I wonder if you can do something solid, something creative with your guilt feelings, to express and acknowledge them and set them on side.

I paint or write this stuff now.

But as others say- the first thing is recognising them.

I tell myself every day 'you can take care of yourself'. And it's taken time and been stressful but I can, and i can cope with rejections and crises and loneliness and boredom and most of all- with the past.

Takes time too though, healing.

Title: Re: Weird or what!
Post by: axa on August 03, 2007, 09:18:52 PM

Write,

I never seem to know when enough is enough, like I have to get so beaten down before I realise what is happening.  I think you are right about the terror of abandonment.  Will try being creative with this stuff........thanks

Izzy,

Loved what you said about being the underdog a bit Ah Ha moment for me.  I associate so much withe the underdog, feel like I identify with Lisa in the Simpsons!  Thank you for taking the time replying to this because I know that you do not want to go into N details and are so committed to moving on and healing yourself...... a big hug for you.

Hope,

Food for thought, trying to achieve what my Nmother never managed........... now that is something to think about.  If I had stayed I would have had a breakdown and would have ended up beaten, broken and disassociated like his xwife.  I have no doubt of that.  Also, the adult me knows that there is no one in this world more able to get his sick needs met than him.  Thanks for the reality check.

And thank you GS

Your friend,

Axa

Title: Re: Weird or what!
Post by: Ami on August 03, 2007, 09:27:10 PM

Dear Axa,
  These weird things are what "drive' our lives. I have had many insights like this since I came on the board. They do seem really weird b/c they do not make logical sense. They do make emotional sense ,though. Our emotions drive us.They make our lives good or bad.
  One similar insight that I had was that I was not eating and "dying" so that my mother would not have to face that she was not "normal". I was trying to maintain her insane reality for her. ,
   I have had many other insights like this since I got on the board.
   Lately, I hear that you are really healing, Axa.                         Love   Ami

Title: Re: Weird or what!
Post by: axa on August 03, 2007, 09:32:39 PM

Ami,

Thanks

Is it not so strange that we try and make things right for our abusers even though we can see them for what they are?  Poor wee girls, us.

Axa

Title: Re: Weird or what!
Post by: isittoolate on August 03, 2007, 09:33:27 PM

Thank you axa......

....for your very kind acknowledgrment of my post. I am glad you had an "AHA" moment. It is nice to pick up another little tidbit!

Love
Izzy

Title: Re: Weird or what!
Post by: Hopalong on August 03, 2007, 11:37:38 PM

Hi all,

In a way I really do think that Ns and abusers are the underdogs, because it is a failure of humanity to use abuse and mistreatment and badgering and tormenting and toying with...to get your daily quota of energy, and their own humanity is so damaged that this elemental failure recurs over and over and over again.

I do feel sorry for your ex, Axa, for all our Nexes, and Nparents, Neveryones and Nanyones.

Feel sorry for them but I would just as soon take the little bumpy winding road than the expressway they're roaring down the center of like a semi with no brakes ...

A victim who has enough voice to speak to others, to speak their own pain, to respond to others', and to check and recheck themselves to keep themselves aiming toward love ... that's Da Big Dog, in my book.

Mangled metaphors this late but very much love.
Hops

Title: Re: Weird or what!
Post by: reallyME on August 04, 2007, 09:14:03 AM

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axa: Occasionally I think of XN and feel guilty that I have abandoned him also.

I still even DREAM of K.  In my dream early this morning, before I woke up, she was at a picnic with me, doing country line dancing, smiling and being friendly with me.  In the beginning of our "real" relationship, K was the best friend you'd EVER want to have.  That didn't last very long though...(I still feel like I want to be with her for all the FUN times we DID have, even the times when she and others were mocking and laughing at me, and I laughed along with them...sometimes we'll take ANY attention and supposed-"affection" that we can get in life...strange thing, the human mind, ey?)

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Izzy: So I am on the side of the underdog, so when an N came along into my life, I felt badly for him and I felt we had so much in common we could work together on ourselves and we would be equal--maybe not totally mentally healthy, but equals.

Yes, I turned out to be "ever the rescuer."  I get so frustrated at the INJUSTICES in life...criminals that "get away with it", children being abused, whose cries go unheard, families a mess that I can't "fix"...it's a really stressful way to live at times, wanting to make everything BETTER around ya.

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His mask dropped after about 6 months       and I was back to being the underdog, with this strange person raging, and controlling and startling/surprising me with words and deeds I  had never even known about.

Yeah...what IS it with that 6 month thingy anyway?  Same with K...about 6 months into the relationship, suddenly, she flips into MR HYDE!

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WRITE: my therapist says we repeat patterns and try to resolve the issues and anxieties they created 'this time'.

Yep...there is even a word for that, but it slips my mind at this time.  We replay history over and over again with new people/faces/names, till we get it "right"

Quote

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HOPS: I do feel sorry for your ex, Axa, for all our Nexes, and Nparents, Neveryones and Nanyones.

Feel sorry for them but I would just as soon take the little bumpy winding road than the expressway they're roaring down the center of like a semi with no brakes ...

BOY ! What a WORD PICTURE THIS IS!  I feel the same way...we can love em, pity them as the abused, neglected, engradured former children that they once were, but, if they are allowed to "drive" GET OUT OF THEIR PATHWAYS!

Title: Re: Weird or what!
Post by: axa on August 04, 2007, 09:51:29 AM

Laura,

Letting go is so hard, letting go of the anger and what we percieved as the fun bits.  I had the six month deadline also.  Honeymoon sure over by that time.  All we can do I guess is struggle along taking the baby steps.

axa

Title: Re: Weird or what!
Post by: NoMoreMindGames on August 04, 2007, 11:30:01 AM

hi Axa,

i guess the "hook" for me has always been trying to be "understood" by the N, trying to "prove" myself to him, never feeling like i could actually communicate, always having to defend myself against his wild accusations and suspicions of me.  i finally had to give up on that, and accept the fact that i'd been devalued and discarded, and that no matter what i said or did, nothing could change that.  that's really hard though, and i still sometimes find myself feeling angry or hurt about it all.  but there's nothing to be done about it.

i think my "guilt" was more tied in with proving myself...i felt like i needed to completely forget about my needs and boundaries and go the distance 200 percent for the N to prove myself, and that if i failed at that somehow, then i'd feel guilty...and anxious and worried the N would stop loving me and would want nothing more to do with me.  i felt that if i gave up, or said no, that he would then be right about me.  i also felt guilty for my anger...when he'd play his psycho head trips on me, i'd get really angry and yell at him.  then i'd feel guilty, as if i'd been the one being abusive.  i guess in a sense i was.  the last time i had an interaction with him, he still tried to use my yelling at him against me (nevermind all of the horrible s**t he did to get me to that point.  not that that's an excuse for my own behavior, but i'm not the yelling type.), to justify his trying to cross my boundaries 8 years after the break-up.

just know that Ns like to use your feelings of guilt for their own purposes, and that they have no feelings of guilt themselves.  i guess you probably do know that.  :)

Title: Re: Weird or what!
Post by: Hopalong on August 04, 2007, 04:56:49 PM

Hi NMMG,
I am very sorry...guilt must have felt like an enormous dragon hovering over a tiny village, in which you were the smallest hobbit. At least you see those feelings clearly for what they were, and don't confuse them with goodness and worthiness. It's just guilt.

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Ns like to use your feelings of guilt for their own purposes

,
Ouch. Well put. instinctively, I think they use almost everything for their own purposes...

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and that they have no feelings of guilt themselves

I'm not sure this is true for Ns I've known, but I think they have a hyperability to compartmentalize...so once the wounded person is out of sight, they're truly out of mind, which makes them seem guiltfree...I dunno.

Hops