Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on August 05, 2007, 09:56:44 AM
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There are 10 of these Emotional Hooks listed here:
http://www.coping.org/relations/boundar/alertb.htm#Lack (http://www.coping.org/relations/boundar/alertb.htm#Lack)
Pasting below the particular ones which I think have led me, yet once again, to stumble into the arena of enmeshment with a friend....
aarghh... absolutely gotta get this stiff understood and firmly planted!!
Surely have had enough practice... but this time, it does seem that I noticed more quickly just how bad I was beginning to feel.
This business of recognizing the need for healthy internal boundaries and then putting them into action is tricky.
This friend of mine hits the same wall regularly. It's cyclical... but it had been awhile since she spun this way, so I thought maybe she'd processed more of this. Anyhow, she digs up all the past abuse and hurt from her family of origin and lays it out there in front of me.
Horror stories of years of neglect and suffering. I've heard it all before, many times.
Again, I feel the anger, pain, resentment, frustration, everything associated with these stories which I know so well.
Then she tucks them all back into her inner closet and returns to life as usual. Till next time.
She is using me to feel these things for her so that she doesn't have to?
That's how it feels.
It's like she wants me to be the mommy, because her own mom didn't protect her from all that happened. I used to think that if I just listened and let her verbalize these things, she would feel some relief at the expression.
But she doesn't.
She just dumps it all on me... as though I get the privilege of reliving all this for her... then she returns to her semi-adult role until the next time it gets to be too much for her.
And I keep thinking about something I read here on the board... mighta been from CB... about desiring friendships/relationships where it's not always about "you, me, or our relationship".
Thinking back, this friend always seems to sense when she's just about pushed too far... and then she throws out the "tell me about what's going on in your life" hook. If I do tell her a bit, I get a flat, unemotional response and it feels like she's just tossed the dog a bone.
I'm not blaming her. It's my emotional boundaries which need strengthening... I just do not want to go down that road again.
Anyhow, here are the key points that trip me up, in case anyone else can benefit...
the rest are at the website.
Love,
Hope
4. Inability to Differentiate Love from Sympathy
Maybe you are hooked by the inability to differentiate the difference between love and sympathy or compassion for your relationship partners. You find yourself feeling sorry for your relationship partners and the warm feelings which this generates makes you think that you are in love with them. The bigger the problems your relationship partners have, the bigger the "love" seems to you. Because the problems can get bigger and more complex, they succeed in hooking you to lower your boundaries so that you begin to give more and more of yourself to your "pitiable" relationship partners out of the "love" you feel. The rational message needed to establish healthy boundaries from this hook is: "It is OK to have sympathy and compassion for my relationship partners, but that does not mean that I have to sacrifice my life to "save" or "rescue" my partners. Sympathy and compassion are emotions I know well and I will work hard to differentiate them from what love is. When I feel sympathy and compassion for my relationship partners, I will remind myself that it is not the same as loving them. The ability to feel sympathy and compassion for another human being is a nice quality of mine and I will be sure to use it in a healthy and non-emotionally hooked way in the future in my relationships."
5. Helplessness and Neediness of Relationship Partners
Maybe you get hooked by the neediness and helplessness of your relationship partners. You find yourself hooked when your partners get into self-pity, "poor me" and "how tough life has been." You find yourself weak when your relationship partners demonstrates an inability to solve personal problems. You find yourself wanting to teach and instruct, when your relationship partners demonstrate or admit ignorance of how to solve problems. You find yourself hooked by verbal and non-verbal cues which cry out to you to "help" your relationship partners even though your partners have the competence to solve the problem on their own. You find yourself feeling warmth, caring and nurturing feelings which help you tear down any shred of boundaries you once had. These sad, weak, distraught, lost, confused and befuddled waifs are so needy that you lose all concept of space and time as you begin to give and give and give. It feels so good. The rational message needed to establish healthy boundaries from this hook is: "No one is helpless without first learning the advantages of being helpless. Helplessness is a learned behavior which is used to manipulate me to give of my resources, energy, time, effort and money to fix. I am a good person if I do not try to fix and take care of my relationship partners when my partners are acting helpless. I cannot establish healthy intimate relationships with my relationship partners if I am trying to fix or take care of them all of the time. I need to put more energy into fixing and taking care of myself if I find myself being hooked by my relationship partners' helplessness."
6. Need to be Needed
Maybe you get hooked by the sense of being depended upon or needed by your relationship partners. There is no reason to feel responsible for your relationship partners if they let you know that they are dependent upon and need you for their life to be successful and fulfilled. This is over‑dependency and is unhealthy. It is impossible to have healthy intimacy with overdependent people because there is no give and take. Your relationship partners could be parasites sucking you dry of everything you have intellectually, emotionally and physically. You get nothing in return except the "good feelings" of doing something for your relationship partners. You get no real healthy nurturing, rather you feel the weight of your relationship partners on your shoulders, neck and back. You give and give of yourself to address the needs of your relationship partners and you have nothing left to give to yourself. The rational message needed to establish healthy boundaries from this hook is: "It is unhealthy for me to be so overly depended upon by my relationship partners who are adults. There is a need for me to be clear what I am willing and not willing to do for my relationship partners. There is a need for my relationship partners to become more independent from me so that I can maintain my own sense of identity, worth and personhood. It would be better for me to let go of the need to be needed than to allow my relationship partners to continue to have such dependency on me. I am only responsible for taking care of myself. Human adults are responsible to accept personal responsibility for their own lives. Supporting my relationship partners intellectually, emotionally and physically where I have nothing left to give to myself is unhealthy and not required in healthy relationships and I will be ALERT to when I am doing this and try to stop it immediately."
7. Belief that Time will Make it Better
Maybe you get hooked by the belief that: "If I give it enough time things will change to be the way I want them to be." You have waited a long time to have healthy intimate relationships, you rationalize: "Don't give up on them too soon." Since you are not sure how to have them or how they feel, you rationalize that maybe what the relationships need is more time to become more healthy and intimate. You find yourself giving more and more of yourself and waiting longer and longer for something good to happen and yet things never get better. You find that your wait goes from being counted by days, weeks or months to years. Time passes and things really never get better. What keeps hooking you are those fleeting moments when the relationships approximate what you would like them to be. These fleeting moments feel like centuries and they are sufficient to keep you holding on. The rational message needed to establish healthy boundaries from this hook is: "It is unhealthy for me to sacrifice large portions of my life, invested in relationships which are not going anywhere. It is unhealthy for me to hold on to the belief that things will change if they have not in 1 or more years. It is OK to set time limits in my relationships such as: if in 3 months or 6 months things do not get to be intimately healthier then I am getting out of them or we will need to seek professional help to work it out. It is OK to put time demands on my relationships so that I do not waste away my life waiting for something which in all probability will never happen. It is not OK for me to blow out of proportion those fleeting moments in my relationships which make me believe that there is anything more in them than there really is."
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Hi Portia,
This has gone in stages for me... over a period of about 3 years.
With this friend, I thought that I'd detached from the outcome awhile back, when I began to view my determination to see her change for the better (by following my advice) as an act of control freakery on my part. Okay, so I detached from the outcome... or so I thought.
It really is so exhausting...
but I thought that taking a break from it all with this friend would give her the space to consider some of the hours of discussion which she and I had shared, while allowing me to restructure my own boundaries. So we took a break, and resumed recently with a simple friendship... sharing via email about our daily activities. She appeared to be better, stronger, more mature, more determined to clear up her own dysfunctional relationships... but now I think that was all an illusion. It's like she was grooming me to this point, when she asked (this was a first - she actually asked) - "could we talk about these feelings I'm having about my family".
I felt so much stronger than the other times... I said, okay.
And here I am again.
The thing is, what I really saw clearly this time - she doesn't even feel the pain with me... it's like she dissociates and reports all this stuff in a very flat-lined state, I am supposed to feel it, and then she winds the whole thing up with, "I'm okay, I hope you know that; I will let the Lord work through this with me".
uh huh. This is where I began to see the bigger picture. I didn't reply. Next thing I get three rapid-fire emails, "are you going to go away?"
She knows what this does to me and she does it anyhow.
My fervency level has hit an all-time low.
She has no emotions to watch, Portia... that's just it.
Not engaging mine is the trick. I think.
(((((((Portia))))))) thanks... this helped.
Love,
Hope
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Hi Hope,
#7. That one is speaking to me. I'm a very optimistic person. Everyone starts on the top rung of the ladder with me. I've said often that if someone puts me on a pedestal, it's their responsible to keep me there. But if I turn it around and think of the ones I've put on a pedestal then allowed to stay there even when they've done everything to have made me emotionally demote them, there's my problem. Thanks for the heads up!
tt
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Oh Lord, Hope.
How awful.
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tt,
I like that pedestal thingie... thanks - I'll remember!
Lighter,
It felt awful yesterday, again, but not quite to the depths as previously...
and all of this is finally tying into some other things, you know...
as I try to get to the bottom of why some stuff gets into my shell and irritates the daylights outta me.
Who knows, maybe one day there'll be a pearl :P
Actually, I think the pearl is - it really is up to me whether or not I'm gonna get all riled up over anything someone else does/says/whatever.
:)
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You're welcome, Bean... I'm glad to know that this helped you!
My husband and I have been married for 3 years now and - for us - time together has helped... but that's
because he was willing to keep extending his hand through those most difficult times when I only wanted to retreat into my little hide-away.
That's the only way I knew, the only way I ever saw... till he taught me differently. I'm so glad that he persisted in gently drawing me out of my discomfort-zone... cuz it was sure miserable in that shell.
I understand the dilemma with doing things "like mom did". That's something I encounter regularly here, even with the simplest things... like peeling potatoes or showing the kids how to do something (usually in the kitchen) and remembering.. that's how Mother always did it.
More importantly, she always ragged on my dad, trying to push him to improve himself... not to mention the molding she tried to do with me. The impact of all that left me at the opposite end of the spectrum - often hanging back and not offering genuinely helpful suggestions or input, for fear of turning into her. Sure takes awhile to achieve a healthy balance. I'm still goin through my own little garden here and plucking out her weeds... but I'm also finding the occasional bud in there, as well... just the beginnings of a gorgeous flower... which needs my tending and nurturing in order to blossom. It ain't all bad. Coming from someone who never even knew intimacy was possible, it's been quite a leap to acknowledge it as a need! That makes me say, too... I'm OK!
Hugs, Bean.
Love, Hope
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Hi Hope,
You are so aware. There's no way you're not going to make even more headway (and I think even a step back is headway, when you see what's happening so clearly).
I am so familiar with this kind of thought--it's among my favorite things to do :?:
I thought [X behavior or statement of mine] would give her the space to consider
[or become aware, or change her mind, or have the realization I know would help her, etc.]
It's kind of like "tidying up the future". Very frustrating but hard to stop.
You're getting there!
love
Hops
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Hope,
You have just described the same friendship I had with my friend right down to the Mommy part. Been there done that and felt the same way you are feeling now.
I do really understand what you are feeling.
I stopped the friendship.
After 12 years.
Deb
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Thanks, Hops.
After being so deliriously unaware for so long, it's still rather a shock... and yet a necessary one. Rather like smashing the proverbial "(not so)funnybone".
"Tidying up the future"... yes, I suppose so!
I hadn't thought of it in that way, but yes - at least I hoped she'd see that somebody was willing to stand by her.
Because it seemed that nobody else knew the whole story of how her family had treated her, I felt responsible to be there, at least in the wings. I still kinda do.
In the past, I'd just get so exhausted, and then angry... with her constant "I'm afraid you'll go away"... honestly, at times it felt as though she was placing me under some sort of curse. On occasion, she'd share some dark dream she'd had... where something happened to me... and how this had frightened her. I tried to tell myself that there was no reason why I should let this stuff get to me... that I was strong enough to ignore her manipulations and still try to be her friend... but I can't deny anymore that it all has a cumulative effect.
For whatever reason, I feel that she hand-picked me to use as her dumping ground for her "dark side". My sense of it is that by allowing her to continue this, I've enabled her to continue her public masquerade, where she refuses to relate at a genuine level and only presents as a sort of inscrutable goody two-shoes. I have never recommended therapy to anyone, until now.
I have told her that she most definitely needs professional help. Her response: "I understand". Translated - "I knew you couldn't help me... nobody can. I am an impossible case." argh
Deb, it really gets bad at times. If I don't respond to a couple emails, her communications get more and more childish... all in lower case letters, lots of abbreviations, like a text message. Next come the 1-liners: "are you all right?" "hope you're ok" "... love u"
And just before this last big spiel, she'd said, "I'm so glad we're friends and we can talk."
Then: whammo. I shoulda known... it was a set-up.
And now finally, this time I see (or at least it feels like this)... it's never been about being real friends... not even a mentor sort of relationship... just a matter of her getting her "fix".
I'm sorry that you went through this, too, Deb... especially after 12 years... it's so hard to know when to let it go, because you just want to keep hoping.
But I see that there's no true intimacy... because there's no genuine person at home in there.
It's like... if you're up, she wants to pull you down. If you're down... better keep it to yourself.
And now she's written again and wants to know if I will still talk to her. She says she won't talk about her family and all that other stuff anymore, but she'll miss me if I don't talk to her. And once again, it feels like - "mommy, tell me a story" :(
I haven't responded to her request.
Love,
Hope
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I wonder if it is part of what we do to feel good about ourselves. I always felt guilty to even stand up for myself when she hung up on me, because I knew how much she hurt all the time. I felt that that would make me a bad person. I think, now, that my hanging in there with her in spite of that actually kept her from growing. I not only didnt help her, I probably hurt her. It is awfully easy to lean on someone else if they will let you, and not learn to lean on yourself.
You may have to be completely selfless and let yourself feel really badly about "abandoning" her. And let her grow up.
I read these things that we have to own ourselves and love ourselves ,first. I remember when I "knew" that. I knew that it was my responsibility to support myself, emotionally. It was an imposition to expect another person to fill you up and also it would not work. Your power is supposed to be for you.
If I only could have retained that lesson-- Boy, what a emotionally healthy person I would be. All the "waste" that is my life would probably not have even happened such as marrying an abusive man., getting sick and all the other counterproductive things I have done Anyway, when I read your post CB,it all came back to me about "health" in relationships.
I always knew this intuitively. I was thinking about this today.
When you get "screwed up", you have to move so far away from your intuition or it could not happen.
I was thinking about the craziness that someone else COULD actually fill you up. You have to be really lost to yourself(IMO) to even be at that 'place" . Just some thoughts as I try to mature . You are steps beyond me, CB Love Ami
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I completely relate, Certain Hope. The role you have with your friend is also one I know very well; its the role of `parent and therapist'.
I seem to attract people with these needs too (sometimes), and I think you described it well when you suggested that its kind of like an addiction and a `fix' for them. In recent years, i can name at least two bosses, and 3 female friends with whom I had these `style' of relationships, all of which fell apart when I started to assert minor self protective boundaries with those people .
I was a pretty slow learner when it came to boundaries, but think I started to *really* learn about them in my last job. Like how to communicate them clearly and tactfully, and how to be consistent even when the resulting `punishment' feels bad.
For the most part, I've found that if a relatonship gets to a point where I've felt the need to assert boundaries, its because the other person has no natural sense of respect. In response to boundaries, they usually have played kind of stupid and frustrating games for while in order to get what they want from me. When that didn't work, they went into `punishment mode', and when that didn't work, they eventually ended their relationship with me.
Boundaries are such hard work. I think the hardest thing about them is going through the games and punishment, in hope that the other person will eventually accept the new status quo. But that hope has never been realised for me, which kind of makes me feel sad.
Certain Hope, hugs to you. i am sorry that you are going thought this:)
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Dear CB,
What you've said has helped me to realize...
I think that if the receiving in this friendship had been more mutual, I wouldn't feel so used, but as it stands... I feel as though I've been almost a 2-dimensional cardboard cutout figure in this woman's mind. I've shared alot with her, but she doesn't receive it... and I don't mean only advice, but just everything in general.. things about myself, my family. If whatever I share doesn't directly relate to her immediate need at hand, it hits a rubber wall and bounces back empty. She doesn't even have any concept of how long we've been friends... I said to her, "Do you realize it's been over 3 years?" She said she had no idea how long we've been talking.
I don't think I'm real to her. Heck, I don't think she's real to herself.
And I'm pretty sure that you're right about my own involvement being rooted in my old method of feeling good about myself, CB.
At this juncture, I feel guilty... because... I think that I've outgrown her. Knowing that causes me shame... almost as though I led her on... even though I truly didn't. I am thinking that I owe her an apology.
How did you end it with your friend after so many years, CB? Did you tell her not to contact you anymore? Did she try afterwards to restore the friendship? I'm getting emails now... "i miss u"...
Thank you so much ((((((CB)))))))
Dear Bella,
This has been a chronic, perennial problem for me, too... the parent and therapist role... and I do recognize the elements of codependency on my own part... the enabling. But seeing that and re-training myself to knock it off are two different matters. Right now, I don't trust myself to hold proper boundaries firmly in place if I allow this friendship to continue... because I need to learn more about how healthy friendships function... and I sure don't want to "practice" on her.
I'm sorry to hear that those with whom you've tried to establish healthy boundaries have refused to accept them (((((((Bella))))))). I really don't have much expectation that it'd work in this case, either... and that makes me sad, too.... and also, strangely relieved. Thank you so much for your help!
Love,
Hope
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Hope,
Deb, it really gets bad at times. If I don't respond to a couple emails, her communications get more and more childish... all in lower case letters, lots of abbreviations, like a text message. Next come the 1-liners: "are you all right?" "hope you're ok" "... love u"
And just before this last big spiel, she'd said, "I'm so glad we're friends and we can talk."
Then: whammo. I shoulda known... it was a set-up.
And now finally, this time I see (or at least it feels like this)... it's never been about being real friends... not even a mentor sort of relationship... just a matter of her getting her "fix".
Oh Hope I know it. I didn't have the emails but I did get the real person with a 6yo shaky, in trouble, voice talking to me. That was bad. I didn't quite know what to do at the moment.
But it turned out to be another set-up.
and a Fix
and
she must grow up
on her own
without me
or anyone else
to be
the
FIX
Hope all I can say is I do not feel guilty about my decision and I did not tell her there would be no contact. Things were really bad for awhile pretty much like you are feeling about your friend and how she is acting and speaking.
My friend was screaming demands about someone and what they should do to accommodate her because she was sick (my butt) with the flu. Although she had no control over these people what so ever. It was not going her way. Yet she was demanding it. It was something that either she did it herself or it was not getting done. Yet continued to scream it will be done!!! Like she had some God Like Powers to make these people do what she wanted! This went on for awhile of her screaming in my ear and demanding me to see it her way that I could not take it anymore and SCREAMED Shut up and get off your ASS and do it yourself if you want it done.
And that was that. LOL The end!!
And I do not feel guilty.
Love
Deb
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I understand Certain Hope - hugs back to you! I think I would feel exactly the same range of feelings you have described, if I were in your position.
Perhaps one analogy would be its a bit like inviting someone around for dinner at your home, and then having them interpret that as an invitation to move in with you (which would have been the last thing you expect, as you have invited people over for dinner before, and usually they go home afterwards and at some satge invite you around to dinner in return)
When your friend comes around again (thinking they are living at your place now) at first you think maybe they've only come for a visit, so you allow them to stay and welcome them with open arms. They start commenting on how nicely you've done the place up, and how wonderful you are for letting them stay, which makes you feel good inside, like you are a great hostess and friend. And you naturally think that by `stay' they mean `for little while' without realising that they mean `stay' as in forever. So you keep being a great hostess, and give them tea, cookies, and even let them have a nap on your bed.
Some time down the track, when your sense of space has been invaded and you are feeling totally drained as a hostess, you see the misunderstanding. You thought that you were being a good hostess, and then they would go home and maybe invite you to dinner some time. But they never did go back home, and now they are pleading `homelessness' and accusing you of kicking them out onto the streets.
Is that a good analogy, do you think? Its very close to how i felt when i was going through it, lol.
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I think it's an amazing analogy, Bella.
Boy can you write.
hugs
Hops
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Dear Deb,
Thank you! That's how I felt in my last communication with her when I wrote,
"YOU are the only person who can choose to move beyond this."
And that was that.
Umm... actually I said, "this is far over my head - blah blah - you must thoroughly commit to healing - blah blah - professional help - therapist - blah - absolute honesty, tell them everything - blah blah -
let me know how that works, please." Maybe some day I'll hear of a change... I can pray... and that is that. (((((()))))))
Dear Bella,
Your analogy does capture this perfectly and has helped me to reframe this! Indeed, it does feel like "forever" since she moved in... into my heart and mind. Once or twice over the years she's stopped by to sweep the floor and dust a few things, only to return with mucky boots and stomp throughout my house without a care in the world.
AND...!!!!.... (more of the picture) as we sit together having our tea and cookies, she tells me all about her other friends, Miss L and Miss T and Miss P... and how they let her do her laundry at their homes, or keep her frozen foods in their freezer when hers isn't working properly, or connect her with free advice about technical issues. Oh, but don't you know, L and T and P have these flaws and those issues and whatever struggles... but of course, they're all very nice ladies and always make sure to help her soooo much. Ahem... if these ladies are so nice and so good to her, then why is she pouring their dirt out all over my kitchen?
No, she has us all neatly on a string, tugging this thread and that thread, just as it suits her.
And that is that! ((((((()))))))
Dear CB,
Thank you for sharing with me how this came about. I understand... and I can almost picture that sort of resolution between this friend and me... where it may be years in between, but we might keep each other informed of the major events in our lives. Several times over the years, she's made noises about picking up and moving to someplace brand new, starting over... and I knew she was seeking an invitation to come to our area. I never cracked that door open in the slightest, though... just emphasized with her, in general, that we each take our baggage with us on our flights.
The thing is, I allowed myself to carry her baggage, as well as my own.
Mine is lightening considerably these days, but not hers... and I refuse to be the bearer of her secrets and the carrier of her offenses against people whom I've never even met.
And how very "kind" of your "concerned" friend to report your "heretical" position to that pastor
I didn't know our pastor during 9-11 period, but I've listened to his teaching tapes from that time, and he was also deeply grieved about the false teaching of those who declared this as God's judgment on America.
That sort of promotion of religious fear (not a Godly awe and reverent-fear) wasted an excellent opportunity to proclaim the truth that Jesus bore all of the Father's wrath against sin on the cross. It's sad.... and I know that pastor had phones ringing all over town, surrounded by the constant murmering about his "heresy"... imagine that - being labeled a heretic and a cult for saying that God loves sinners and is not angry with them.
I do think it's quite a blessing that you've been able to be a witness to your friend's growth, CB... and I don't know... maybe you really weren't delaying her growth during those years. Maybe her season of needing that tie was just alot longer than for some... I've had some long seasons myself :)
She might have broken without that time of leaning... God knows ... but I have a hunch it all worked out just as it was meant to for you two.
And thank you for the hope that maybe someday I'll be able to witness a similar growth in my friend... I do believe that, with God, all things are possible. ((((((()))))))
Love,
Hope
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*I will share about 2 dysfunctional relationships that I had in my life:
Mary and Kay
10 Emotional Hooks in Relationships
1. Lack of Individual Identity
When I met Mary I had just gone through a spiritual abuse situation, so, no, I was not sure of who I was by that time, and I craved acceptance of a mother-figure more than life itself.
With Kay, Mary had just abandoned me after several years of a close relationship (though very unhealthy one in many ways). Kay played "rescuer" and "hero" to me. I came to believe that, without Kay's help in telling me what God wanted me to do, I would be LOST. (Usually in such relationships, one says to the other, "I don't know what I'd have done without you." or "I'd be nobody without you." A popular song goes "how will I live without you, I want to know...how will I ever ever survive, oh tell me how will I oh how will I live?" (SICK!) or "I can't live if livin is without you. I can't give. I can't give anymore." or "If I can't have you, I don't want nobody baby." (ever think MUSIC has taught us some thinking/being patterns too?)
2. Scarcity Principle
With Kay, history repeated itself. Mary and Kay sounded in text EXACTLY LIKE each other, after the "honeymoon phase" with Kay was over. I began to feel scared that the relationship with Kay was going to end up just like it did with Mary...NON-EXISTENT...yet, because Kay bought me gifts and seemed to keep promises better than Mary did, I convinced myself that everything would work itself out.
With Mary, I put my family/spouse relationship totally out of my mind, ignored them for 3 years, stayed in a room by myself and screamed at anyone who dared come near me to suggest I get back "into the real world." Mary had an illness that caused her to be very debilitated and only able to go on the computer. She also had marriage trouble so she stayed away from her husband and gradually withdrew from her children. By the time Mary deserted me too, we had switched roles and I almost lost my children/husband, because of my selfish interest in Mary and lack of love for them. (IT WAS HORRID, but I couldn't honestly SEE what I was doing)
With Kay, I didn't desert my family as much, and I even tried to set boundaries with her, which she refused saying "I never had to set boundaries with ANY of my friends and I'm not about to START!" As a result, her one daughter moved out of her house, because SHE had been spending too much time with ME. (it's all just a sick, detrimental, divisive cycle)
4. Inability to Differentiate Love from Sympathy
both relationships with Mary and Kay involved feeling "responsible" to caretake. Mary had the debilitating disease, and Kay had another sort of physical problem. Both ladies had a lot of pain and were often very helpless physically. I felt that I, as their friend/helper, needed to play "nurse" in a large sense. So, you would say I felt OBLIGATED for the most of the relationship.
I do believe Mary loved me and still does. I do not believe Kay did or does, because she has no clue what true LOVE is, having been raised in a severely strict, non-feeling home with absent parents.
5. Helplessness and Neediness of Relationship Partners
Maybe you get hooked by the neediness and helplessness of your relationship partners. You find yourself hooked when your partners get into self-pity, "poor me" and "how tough life has been." You find yourself weak when your relationship partners demonstrates an inability to solve personal problems.
To be honest, I felt this with Mary, but it was both Kay and I who exhibited this in our relationship. Mary was the overall needy one, but with Kay, we sort of took turns being needy or expecting compassion and sympathy I think.
You find yourself wanting to teach and instruct, when your relationship partners demonstrate or admit ignorance of how to solve problems.
Mostly when Kay would feel stuck in situations, I'd want to try and help her work through them, but I crossed the line when I'd agree with her right to really despise people at one point. This was when I started sensing the red flags...last week this group of people adored her (according to Kay), but this week, they are rotten ^$&()(^)* who don't DESERVE squat of her time or care.
You lose all sense of space and time...
Yep, I sure did, and what's more... I didn't CARE anymore what day it was, what time it was, who in my family was going through what or anything EXCEPT MARY. For 3 and a half YEARS my children were without an emotionally and sometimes physically present mother.
It feels so good. The rational message needed to establish healthy boundaries from this hook is: "No one is helpless without first learning the advantages of being helpless. Helplessness is a learned behavior which is used to manipulate me to give of my resources, energy, time, effort and money to fix.
Most of the people I became enmeshed with, exhibit this learned helplessness because of their own pasts. Usually people with learned helplessness will talk themselves out of every good opportunity as they are telling you about it. You will try and encourage them but they will tell you why they can't do it, lack of talent, people might not like me, people might make fun of me, what if I get there and don't know what to say/do...etc etc. (this fuels your wanting to keep trying to encourage them and almost FORCE them to ACT when they won't)
I am a good person if I do not try to fix and take care of my relationship partners when my partners are acting helpless. I cannot establish healthy intimate relationships with my relationship partners if I am trying to fix or take care of them all of the time. I need to put more energy into fixing and taking care of myself if I find myself being hooked by my relationship partners' helplessness."
YEP! THIS IS KEY!
6. Need to be Needed
Yes, I sure did and sometimes do battle this one.
. There is no reason to feel responsible for your relationship partners if they let you know that they are dependent upon and need you for their life to be successful and fulfilled. This is over‑dependency and is unhealthy. It is impossible to have healthy intimacy with overdependent people because there is no give and take.
I agree with this 100%. Both Mary and Kay let me know that "without me they just didn't think they wanted to go on." this gave me a sense of being "all-important and necessary for their existence" in essence, the position of being sort of a "god." That is too high of an esteem for ANY human to have. There was some GIVE on both ends in both relationships, but in the end of the one with KAY, it was all TAKE on her end...taking my dignity, my identity, my value, my worth, everything she had supposedly taught me to never let anyone take.
7. Belief that Time will Make it Better
Maybe you get hooked by the belief that: "If I give it enough time things will change to be the way I want them to be."
I definitely experienced this after I knew Kay was showing N signs and BPD ones. I wanted so badly to make her see the damaging behaviors in herself. Her reply was to mock me, tell me it was I who had those issues, and basically remain in denial before replacing me with the next person, whom she immediately informed me was "much more suited" to her than I.
Since you are not sure how to have them or how they feel, you rationalize that maybe what the relationships need is more time to become more healthy and intimate.
I can remember telling Kay that I had NO CLUE what a healthy relationship even was, and she promised me that she would not allow things to get unhealthy.
. It is OK to set time limits in my relationships such as: if in 3 months or 6 months things do not get to be intimately healthier then I am getting out of them or we will need to seek professional help to work it out.
I did just this. First, I joined my church choir in order to make REAL LIFE friendships. Second, I sought psychological help when things began going downhill and looking too familiar.
8. Belief that It Must be All of My Fault that there are Problems in the Relationships
There is a reason we'd feel this way. We were TOLD IT WAS OUR FAULT...by parents, teachers, authorities, N's or ourselves, etc. Then, we BELIEVED it!
You feel blamed and pointed out by your relationship partners as the reason why things are not healthier or more intimate in your relationships. You find yourself having to defend yourself from attacks from your relationship partners for "not being good enough" or "doing enough" to make the relationships work. You find yourself with a mounting list of expectations, duties or responsibilities, given you by your partners, which must be accomplished if the relationships are ever to become what you want them to be.
I sort of smiled on this one. I actually have a written LIST of what Kay expected of me. Remember not to ever question her...do not act like you don't understand...do not ask for hugs...do not talk about certain subjects, always fall over yourself with thanks to her and those dear to her...etc..."
You find yourself needing to change the ways you think, feel, act, dress, talk, look, eat, work, cook, entertain, have fun, socialize, etc before you will be "good enough" for your relationships to work. You find that you will have to basically give up "who you are"
Yes. I LOST myself in the relationship with KAY, giving up my beliefs, my way of ministering, my types of friend choices, etc.
What keeps you hooked is the affirmation and reinforcement you get from your relationship partners when you effect a small change. The only problem is that there is always something else identified which needs to be changed after the last change has been accomplished. You are in a never ending loop of needing to change and unfortunately there never seems to be an end to it.
I don't usually exclaim in this manner but OH MY GOD! and I am saying that TO God...Lord KNOWS I experienced THIS one...always trying to figure out how to make Kay approve of me. there always was one more thing I was striving for, feeling like I never arrived, yet, when I'd question Kay, she'd say "I don't know what you're talking about. I'm fine with you." No, she was never fine with herself nor with me.
Worried about the future outcome of partner's life
It was more Kay who was always caught up in my future. She believed she knew the future of everyones, as far as where they were headed, and it was HER JOB to get you onto the path to take you there. At one point though, she came to me and admitted that God told her that it was HIS job to direct people, not hers, thus admitting her flaw in this area.
10.) Idealism or Fantasy Thinking
My biggest thing with this in both relationships, was that, I believed no matter how bad we fought, as long as we could talk on the phone about things, mary and Kay would ALWAYS come back to me and things would be ok again. WHen the relationships were clearly NOT going to come back together, it sent me into a panic to try and hold on even tighter and DEMAND that Mary and Kay stay with me...with words of "but you PROMISED! Was our relationship really all that shallow to you? Don't you care how this is hurting me? You are mean, you are EVIL. I don't like you." That is how someone who is insecure, dependent, codependent and borderline will act when another person pulls away from them. I also used to say a lot "But it wasn't supposed to BE this way. It wasn't supposed to END like this. THIS IS NO FAIR"
The pull to make the fantasy become real is very powerful. You seem brainwashed into believing that it is possible even though all of your efforts have not made it happen, after years and years of effort on your part. You get hooked by the delusion of the fulfillment of the fantasy and live as if the fantasy has become reality.
OH, VERY MUCH SO!
You are sometimes so out of touch with reality that you appear to be psychotic to others when you discuss your relationships.
Very ACCURATE way to put it. I DID seem crazy the way I obsessed over both Mary and Kay, yes...that was cause without them, I didn't believe I EXISTED.
They know they are not real and in some cases do not even closely approximate what you are saying. You keep pouring your resources, energy and time into empty pits which seem to never get filled.
The common statements from my children and husband during all this were: "Why do you keep on doing this to yourself? You have to be crazy to keep going through this!"
ept my relationships the way they are rather than how I want them to be. I am a human and subject to making mistakes and failing and I will forgive myself if I make a mistake in my efforts to establish healthy intimate relationships with my relationship partners. Once I give up the delusion that things are the way they are supposed to be, I will work with my partners to try to correct the problems in our relationships."
The best thing I did at this point, was fall apart, hit rock bottom and begin to HAVE to get back into REALITY one second at a time...LITERALLY, looking at my wristwatch. I would tell myself "come on, Laur...you can make it just one more millisecond. Then, I'd take the next minute and do the same, working up to 5 minute intervals at a time, then 10 then 15, etc...till minutes became hours, hours became a day and then 2 days, etc...I HAD to LITERALLY do this to re-establish my "personhood" and "existence" as part of a real, tangible planet. I was that "far gone" by the time Kay finished "rescuing me" from Mary. UGH
I do have to thank her for taking so far into the world of fantasy and pain that I came to realize that the only place left to go was TO GOD! HE WAS MY SALVATION!
~Laura
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Dear CH, My friend P knows about that. She knows that I am hungry for human contact. She gave me a book to do a favor for her, to take it to the library. Next day she calls me and ask about the book. I say I am not going out today, but I am going to do it the next day. I explained that I do not want to go out that afternoon. Then she asks me out for a coffee. She knows I do anything to be with her. So I say yes. I dress up, get on my car and drive towards the place. I am there waiting for her. She calls me in my cell phone and tells me that she will not be able to make it. Then she says, since I am already out, I please deliver her book in the library. That was a back stabbing to me. That fits several of the numbers you have posted. I totally agree with you.
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Dear Laura,
((((((((Laura))))))) thank you so much for sharing all of this.
Sounds like you have an excellent understanding both of where you were in these relationships and of where you are now. I'm so glad to know that you did look to God and go to Him! I feel as you said... thankful even for the difficult relationships which brought me to that same point, of trusting Jesus alone for salvation.
You wrote:
"Most of the people I became enmeshed with, exhibit this learned helplessness because of their own pasts. Usually people with learned helplessness will talk themselves out of every good opportunity as they are telling you about it. You will try and encourage them but they will tell you why they can't do it, lack of talent, people might not like me, people might make fun of me, what if I get there and don't know what to say/do...etc etc. (this fuels your wanting to keep trying to encourage them and almost FORCE them to ACT when they won't)"
That is so true! I've been part of this circular talking for so long with my friend, around and around... and now, when I finally said to her that she needs professional help, I guess she took that as an ultimatum. Like I was saying - do this or I won't be your friend. It wasn't an ultimatum at all. I was only stating a fact, as I see her literally fading (psychologically and spiritually) into oblivion.
Now she has written to tell me she called a psychologist's office and left a message... thinking, I guess, that I will respond with more encouragement.
But she has to decide and follow through on this for herself, by her own decision, if she's going to do it at all.
And Laura, I did not know who I was, either.. not before Jesus. I was able to manage the role of caretaker to the extent that I could maintain my old mask of do-gooder/perfection, but now I am SO glad that mask is gone.
And I'm so very glad you're able to share your struggles and how much you've grown through it all, in Christ.
Love,
Hope
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Dear CH, My friend P knows about that. She knows that I am hungry for human contact. She gave me a book to do a favor for her, to take it to the library. Next day she calls me and ask about the book. I say I am not going out today, but I am going to do it the next day. I explained that I do not want to go out that afternoon. Then she asks me out for a coffee. She knows I do anything to be with her. So I say yes. I dress up, get on my car and drive towards the place. I am there waiting for her. She calls me in my cell phone and tells me that she will not be able to make it. Then she says, since I am already out, I please deliver her book in the library. That was a back stabbing to me. That fits several of the numbers you have posted. I totally agree with you.
Dear Lupita,
That P person is no friend... she is a stinker playing a silly game and I don't think it was even about the library book. It was about getting you to jump, you know? My goodness, was it that important for the book to get back to the library that day? No, of course not. I am so glad that you are learning to use your boundaries and not jump anymore!! (((((((Lupita))))))) boundaries will keep away the stinkers.
Love,
Hope
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CH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :x :evil:
I am so mad. You just hit the neil. She is a SPINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!! iT WAS NOT ABOUT THE BOOK. She just wanted to measure her power, to make me jump. Gush, I dislike her so much.
Thank you CH!!
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That's the way to ROARRRRrrrrrrrrr, Lupita :D
Yes, she is a spinner. You don't jump... she spins away into the sunset.
You are going to make some wonderful new friends, genuine friends, with all this knowledge you're learning :)
Love,
Hope