Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: rosencrantz on April 26, 2004, 03:27:02 PM
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There's a new edition of 'Manhood' (Steve Biddulph) out just now in the UK.
My understanding of 'men' comes from the women's movement. We spent a long time emancipating women - then suddenly realised that men are just as much 'victims' of our society and 'the system' as WE were!!!
So we each have to do some work on understanding and emancipating our own gender before we can come back together to become 'one' or 'joint' again.
It bothers me sometimes when I see people having communication difficulties that are 'simply' mis-hearings, jointly non-empathic understandings and gender/personality differences. But it can be tricky disentangling it from the personality 'disorder' of entrenched narcissism. I guess it's just a continuum and it's one we women are on as well.
But I, too, see my husband more and more clearly. Castle wall boundaries (it's why I chose him - so I wouldn't get invaded and suffer 'emotional contagion' as I did with my mother and others). He gave me a chance to become myself - but at the same time undermined me because of his own anxieties and damaging beliefs. The year I got married I was being successful in all areas of my life. An apogee - for it was all downhill after that. Within a year, I'd lost my job, my voluntary post, my income, my self-esteem, my purpose in life.
My H seemed to despise the very things that he had first admired about me - my chutzpah, my honesty, my ability to just go up to someone professionally and say 'hi' and how can we help each other'. I think I let him down by not being stronger and telling him he was wrong!!! If my self-esteem had been stronger, I'm sure it could not have happened.
He acted from a space I didn't understand - but I 'did it back' to him to make him see how uncomfortable it was (cos surely he would want to change!!!) Er, no - it just became a mutual habit. Now I know he thought I was trying to 'get at him' !!! (how very like the 'paranoia' of my mother) - we ended up in a downward spiral of blame and (shame?). He resented me - and I resented him. Everyone 'outside' thought how nice he was - and I resented him just as I'd resented my mother : 'nice' to the outside world but something else at home.
I used to think that whatever I 'perceived' was wrong. If I saw a repeated 'pattern', I assumed it was my imagination 'imposing' the image of my mother on someone else. I didn't understand it was the same thing. My mother in a different guise. Well, now I know.
Over the past few months I have come from a place of hardly daring to front up to my husband, to struggling to do so, to trying to be consistent in doing so until now (after the changes within me) I do it automatically - because I KNOW he has just reacted to me through a distorting lens and I'm no longer cowed by his attempt to control through threatened rage (he does it just like my father did when I was little!).
But it doesn't exactly make me happy! It's tiring and a pain. And it doesn't bring us closer. He's reading 'Controlling People' right now. He was supposed to have read it months ago but clearly didn't. He weasled out of a promise. This time I set the parameters. Read it.
In many ways he is an admirable man. A man of honour. A man of his word. A man prepared to spoil and serve (causes me agony - please DON'T - even while I accept). Understands my mother in a nutshell - no agonies there!!! But not hot on 'intimacy'. I want him to be much more open. He's a great support in many ways, especially this last year. Will listen long! Is VERY logical and rational. Until the spotlight is on HIM! I don't want to stick labels on him but the N word hovers!!! But he doesn't want to cause pain and is responding by energy healing and metamorphic technique as I've had tho the last thing you'd EVER see him do is participate in a forum such as this. That's OK - we're all different.
I said in another post - NOW...I can choose to stay, I can even choose to love him to bits. The knowledge then at the back of my mind of someone else, long ago and far away but who, I thought, had really disappeared, and had no desire to stay in touch...popped up last week and is in the process of getting free. There is a link between him and my son.
I have no wish to betray my H by having an affair or leaving him and 'that' other relationship would be a couple of years down the line if it ever happened (surely not! BUT if I had an inkling three years ago then he must have had, too). This man has 'feelings' and 'sensitivity' but I bet he's not half as honourable and rational and upright as my H.
Right now, hearing the things I've said today and noticing the things I've done, I realise I've put in place everything that will allow me to leave, to escape. A semi-escape. The raison d'etre being the needs of my business. To go and live (part-time) an hour away. My son very definitely wants to spend weekends in that place while daddy stays at home to look after the cats.
Well, you don't need to leave, to leave it seems!
I sortof don't believe myself - but action is fact...
But the picture of sadness that would be my H if I went. I really don't think he'd care. It's what he almost hopes for - to be left alone. From alone to alone. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. I think that's all my father wanted, too. :cry: Mea culpa. But I really don't think I'll ever lose all my body armour/protection/fat if I stay!
R
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PS And the other BIG reason for leaving, even on a 'semi' basis, is that I'd have a better relationship with my son as well.
I've become aware over the past year of just how much my H undermines my relationship with my son! As far as I'm concerned, theirs was THE important relationship from the moment my son was born - it just happened that way. And I'm so full of self-sacrifice that it was OK and fitted my 'life pattern'.
But occasionally, my son and I get on really well and my H ALWAYS does something mean to undermine me. He cuts me off at the knees, makes some disparaging comment or otherwise slices away the energy that's between my son and me. Astounding, unbelievable.
And it's very impactful. We immediately part company.
I was so happy a week or two ago, my son was happy too. And it was happiness begetting happiness. I was just SO happy that my son was happy and that we were finally getting on so well. I was conscious that I was SMILING often and I hadn't done that for so long. Then ZAP! from my H. He did it to us both, this time. Jointly.
I tell him these days. I 'hissed' it straight up this time (in private, not near my son). "As soon as I get close to x, you can't stand it!" (I can't believe I said it and said it like that, but it was the TRUTH!) So that was all three of us in our separate corners.
It might be cos he feels left out - or whatever - but he has no right to spoil things for us when our good times are so infrequent anyway. And I separate from my son as a result and he probably thinks I don't love him again/enough.
Well, there we go. I've 'fessed all now.
TTFN
R
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Hi rosencratz,
What a difficult decision. I cannot relate to having a child involved, but it only appears to make the matter even more painful. It sounds like you know in your heart what would be best for your relationship with you son.
Yet, there are so many other considerations that complicate the matter.
I just read Lundy Bancroft "Why Does He Do That: Inside the minds of Angry and Abusive Men." It was very empowering to read and it may apply here.
I was going to highlight and respond toparts of your first post in the thread that I could relate to. But then, I would have highlighted most of your page. . . You have clearly articulated what reads similar to my own story. I wonder if it is a phenomenon. I wonder how many other people: are attracted to this charming man who everyone loves... and for good reason, he is a good man, in many ways.
This man seems to want to let us become our bold selves, appears to understand our childhood wounds...
But then a year or so into it, we are surprised to learn we have lost ourselves, and have begun to resent him and appreciate him simultaneously.
We question our own perceptions because we recognize our wounds.
By this time he has lost whatever respect he appeared to have in the beginning. We try to show him how he hurts us. But he doesn't get it.
Then, slowly, we learn to stand up to him again...
Alas! we realize he is an N (or at least has disruptive N tendancies) very much like the mother (or parent) we thought he was not.
Now, we have committed so much. We are trying to change our behavior, in hopes that he will respond with more respect for us.
Maybe it is a cost-benefit analysis in which we feel we have incomplete information.
We are not happy even though we have begun to change.
Instead, we are exhausted and in pain.
We wonder if that feeling will change.
It's hard not to be tempted by other ideas... Is it temptation because of temproray pain? Or Is it the truth finally being told? Is it both?
rosencratz, I don't know if this is an adequate interpretation of where you are at. It was intended to be an interpretation of how your story inspiried, and helped clarify how I feel about my situation. And it is a quandery... about how many others go through something very similar... A way of saying "you are not alone." A way of saying, I have no answers and very little wisdom, but I do wish you love and support and clarity and empowerment in discerning your truth. Thank you ever so much for sharing it.
Peace, sjkravill
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Almost poetry, sjkravill! And I believe our deepest truth comes out in poetry. A brilliant post.
And thank you for the kindest of words in your last paragraph. Not sure I deserve them but I appreciate them!!!!!
It's not a decision so much as some kind of flow. I don't know where it will end up and it will take a long time evolving. Years. So I'm not in a panic (well there's a surprise - what a change!!)
I have the book you mention and...I'm not sure it applies. Perhaps it 'should'. But as you say, he is a good man, in many ways, a feminist, indeed!!!!! Well, some of my more 'challenging' sisters would quibble but he's a good way down the road on that one!!! Nevertheless, I sometimes wonder how far apart are his words and his true feelings. Does he know his 'true' feelings? How can I presume to know what he doesn't know himself!
I mean, if he were writing here, I'd just so much want to 'know', to seek to understand him by knowing as well as being just plain nosy!!! I know he would value my privacy. But is it really to 'ethical' when he really doesn't much care what I write. I mean, he'll be happy to listen if there's something I want to share with him.
Can we have everything we want in someone else? Of course not. I thought I was being 'adult' to accept his distance considering everything else that I benefited from - but I'm not happy - in fact I'm very depressed. I haven't given up hope and I know this year has 'taken it out of me'. But do I make him happy? Probably not. Would anybody make him happy??????? Oh dear. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't try again with anybody else.
Hello Nic - emotional convenience. Sigh! I hoped it was friendship.
So, yes, sjkravill - you write exactly what I'm experiencing. I'm glad! And yes, I feel less alone. Thank you!
We are trying to change our behavior, in hopes that he will respond with more respect for us.
There was just something in this sentence that made me want to think 'beyond'. But I can't quite get to it at the moment.
It's half past midnight - brain has gone to sleep without me.
Back tomorrow no doubt (unless I go for that drive to pastures new but bad weather threatens so perhaps not!! I'm easily kept in my place!!!!!)
'Night for now.
R
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Oh, just thought to clarify - my son's home would continue to be here with H, same school, same friends, same food, same routine. Or that's what I thought. But maybe he'd be better off in the big town for his next school anyway. Now there's a thought. Part-timers all round. Maybe that's what's pulling me in this new direction.
One thing that's new and for sure. I TRUST my intuition and I trust it to take me to good places and not to hurt others. I wonder if this is what a religious belief feels like!!! Trust, safety, security - ???
R
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But it doesn't exactly make me happy! It's tiring and a pain. And it doesn't bring us closer. He's reading 'Controlling People' right now. He was supposed to have read it months ago but clearly didn't. He weasled out of a promise. This time I set the parameters. Read it.
I don't understand what is going on in your marriage....and maybe he should read this book. But my philosophy is against asking that anyone read anything. First, they may interpret the book very differently from the way I hope they will. There's no guarantee that a book will influence them in the least. I would pressure them to see a marital therapist with me, though.
In many ways he is an admirable man. A man of honour. A man of his word. A man prepared to spoil and serve (causes me agony - please DON'T - even while I accept). Understands my mother in a nutshell - no agonies there!!! But not hot on 'intimacy'. I want him to be much more open. He's a great support in many ways, especially this last year. Will listen long! Is VERY logical and rational. Until the spotlight is on HIM! I don't want to stick labels on him but the N word hovers!!! But he doesn't want to cause pain and is responding by energy healing and metamorphic technique as I've had tho the last thing you'd EVER see him do is participate in a forum such as this. That's OK - we're all different.
If he's a man of honor and integrity, I think you may not realize that this is GREAT. Maybe he is a good husband! This other stuff you want from him is (in my view) beyond what is normally obtainable. Most husbands wouldn't participate in this forum. But they're still good husbands. Many husbands aren't intimate in the way a woman wishes. But they're still good husbands. Possibly you are expecting too much from marriage but then I'm a bit confused as to the marital situation here.
bunny
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Hi bunny - I don't disagree with what you say (oddly enough??) tho I wouldn't pressure him to see a therapist. It would destroy him. And I don't want to do anything that might damage his ability to 'deal with the world'. He made his choices as a child in an alcoholic home and he's lived a decent life as a result. So...gently, gently here. But a good husband may not mean a healthy lifestyle for me. I may just need to have more space, a holiday, being alone, having an opportunity to meet people freely. Sometimes it's something 'symbolic' that needs to happen.
So I'm just 'going with the flow' of something here, being alert and being aware of what I'm doing.
And I'm still smarting from someone's comments some time ago when what I'd said about my H was used as a weapon against me and also 'did him down'. So I'm just trying to be as honest as possible. Trying to get 'stuff' out in the open until this 'feeling' goes away.
Gotta go
R
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Hey Rosencrantz, I nearly fell off my perch when I read your post. It's that bloody T-Shirt. Get it off this instant woman, NOW!!!!!. hahahahahah
Hey, I say, you know like in a game show, I'm shouting from the audeience, "Take the holiday, the holiday." Just a nice little time away, a few good books, the odd little drinky poo at a nice quiet sleezy bar, the odd little alert-flirt with a few tall dark and handsome N's, string a few along for a few dinners and dances. Don't tell them where you're from, make up some crap story, have some fun, and hey hahahahahahahahahahahahahah, hey, hahahahahahah, use the name Rosencrantz when you introduce yourself to them. Stunning, absolutely stuning. Then when it all heats up a bit too much, bolt home to the safety of hubby and son and appreciate what bliss comfort and security can be.
(((HIG)))
CG
PS, and failing that, take a SHIRLEY VALENTINE type holiday, get well and truly laid by a gorgeous meditteranean, enjoy every damn single illegal minute of it, (DON'T FORGET TO USE A CONDOM!!!!) go home wracked with guilt, confess, repent, be forgiven, and get straight back here and tell me all about it. PLEEEEASE!!!!!!
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Bloody hell CG! But I like you (Benny Hill style).
Gosh R. Think I'm about to do us both a favour here....
And I'm still smarting from someone's comments some time ago when what I'd said about my H was used as a weapon against me and also 'did him down'.
..shall I? Ooo-er. Drop the grenade? It's only the truth! Go on then:
Do you mean what Jacmac did?
RUN FOR THE HILLS! I'm joking, I'm a tiny bit bigger now. But seriously, do you mean that? It was pretty out of order but then most of That Post was out of order so if you do mean that, christ, forget it, it's not worthy of even remembering. But if it bothers you (does it?) let's get it out. I won't panic and call for help from Dr G this time (boy do I feel silly about that, but then again no, it was ok at the time, I couldn't cope then). Want to talk about it? (bet I've got the wrong person - ha ha ha ha!!) Tell, please, who did you mean??
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Yeah Portia, hell you're gutsy :D (love it) I wanted to ask too but wasn't game, so I'm the little coward shit now hiding behind you, echoing to Rosencrantz "Yeah, who, when??" :D
CG
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Hi Rosesncratz,
I wanted to post this last night but I was studying for a final, so I made myself focus on that instead :?
This was part of your response:
Nevertheless, I sometimes wonder how far apart are his words and his true feelings. Does he know his 'true' feelings? How can I presume to know what he doesn't know himself!
Here is just an observation because your story about your H's feminism looks familiar to me.
I have this same discussion with myself about my H. (or N?). Very deceptive because he believes he is a feminist, and he says lots of the right words.
He claims to be a feminist. Afterall, he was raised by women. He loves strong women. He needs and wants a strong women... Whatever! He touts feminism but nonverbally he expects me to do the domestic chores... He likes strong women, but he becomes the victim or the bully the minute I call him on his disrespect for me. I could go on.
Maybe his picture of himself is honnorable, as a feminist, (and he is very good at appearing as such to others) but actions speek louder than words buddy! Perhaps unconsciously, unaware, he is bored with the lack of challange in women wthout power, and he resents women with power. He wants his wife to be what he wants her to be when he wants it... He wants momma, wife and pet wraped up in one. He wants to be the "good" variation of his daddy. We are all somewhat self-deceived, hey?
The more I observe my H, the more I think he is pseudo-aware. He pretends to be aware. He thinks he is aware. He is aware of his fanciful image of the world. But is he aware of his underlying beliefs/ needs/motives/desires? It doesn't appear so. Sometimes he will say something so telling... something that gives his true motives away, and he doesn't recognize that as somethig that should tell him something about himself or the situation.
Maybe I am an idealist, but I don't think it is too much to demand basic respect from you H.
I am glad you trust your instincts and perceptions... something I am slowly learning to do... slowly. Best to you on this journey...
Peace! sjkravill
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Hi bunny - I don't disagree with what you say (oddly enough??) tho I wouldn't pressure him to see a therapist. It would destroy him. And I don't want to do anything that might damage his ability to 'deal with the world'. He made his choices as a child in an alcoholic home and he's lived a decent life as a result. So...gently, gently here. But a good husband may not mean a healthy lifestyle for me. I may just need to have more space, a holiday, being alone, having an opportunity to meet people freely. Sometimes it's something 'symbolic' that needs to happen.
rosencrantz,
Please take this as my pragmatic mind taking over...I'm not down on you or your husband.
Q: If seeing a marriage counselor would destroy him, how would your leaving him without trying marriage counseling affect him?
Q: Do you think a marriage counselor would be rough and mean to him?
Q: Do you think a marriage counselor would take your side against him?
bunny
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Hi bunny - I don't disagree with what you say (oddly enough??) tho I wouldn't pressure him to see a therapist. It would destroy him. And I don't want to do anything that might damage his ability to 'deal with the world'. He made his choices as a child in an alcoholic home and he's lived a decent life as a result. So...gently, gently here. But a good husband may not mean a healthy lifestyle for me. I may just need to have more space, a holiday, being alone, having an opportunity to meet people freely. Sometimes it's something 'symbolic' that needs to happen.
rosencrantz,
Please take this as my pragmatic mind taking over...I'm not down on you or your husband.
Q: If seeing a marriage counselor would destroy him, how would your leaving him without trying marriage counseling affect him?
Q: Do you think a marriage counselor would be rough and mean to him?
Q: Do you think a marriage counselor would take your side against him?
bunny
Go bunny, but I'm still rootin' for rosencrantz to take the holiday, mediterranean latino lover, and a good hard shag me'self!!!! Oh did I say 'rootin'. freudian slip. hahahahahahahahahaha
But I guess it ain't gonna happen so I'll change course and try for an intelligent response. But don't hold your breath, this is me after all. :D
Go on Rosencrantz, haul his hairy cute butt off to marriage counselling. What will come out of it, you can never assume to know.
Oooh, oooh, oooh, I feel a an' ol' cliche' comin' on, and, and , and , here it is. TA DA!
"When you 'ASSUME' you risk making an 'ASS' out of 'U' and of 'ME'. Barf, Barf :D :D
But hey, he might surprise you. You are such a parent/protector. It comes out here loud and clear to me anyway. Ya' gota' stop doin' that!!!
Let's play 'hypotheticals' for while. I loved that show. Here we go.
Let's say you are parenting/protecting your husband.
If you had to accept for a moment that is what you're doing, (parent/protecting your husband/ hell maybe even yourself) then what would you say you're protecting him for or from anyway?
Here' a big thought. If you really think he's that fragile that he couldn't handle it, then I'd say for sure he and you both definitely needs it, or something very much like it. :shock: :shock: :shock:
Do you think you can be responsible for becoming so healed that somehow your super-ultra healing will compensate for his 'none healing'. What a burden for you. You have to do it all.
Let's sing together, 8 beats to the bar,
heal & recover & change & grow,
heal & recover & change & grow,
heal & recover & change & grow,
heal & recover & change & grow.
And when you've done, heal, recover, change, grow some more.
Meanwhile, what the f##k is he doin'. :D :D :D
If it were me, we were talkin' about you here and not you, I'd say I'm important enough to run that risk I think. I'd rattle his comfy little predictable cage. Why not? It's real life issues here isn't it?
Back to you. You're a mated-off pair. He's got you and you're a bloody good catch. Let him earn it.
Back to if it were me. I'd bet he'd rather face some type of joint counselling/therapy stuff than lose me, even temporarily. What would I lose?
Back to you. He might surprise you. :D :D
What if you don't??? Where can that lead???? More questions???? I'm getting lost now. Too many questions. I can't see how being apart fixes anything really. You wanna clear out for a while, feel the wind in your hair. Don't blame you. You're in mourning still, and you haven't had the time to put all the peices back together, now that a big peice is gone. You've been so focussed on your mother's mental health so much.
What a burden!
But regardless, I don't believe your son doesn't need you. That's an illusion that's weaseled it's way in during the stress and confusion and it's bullshit. The boy hasn't been born who doesn't need his mother. You just maybe fel that you're not good for him at this stage. Another illusion I think, but if it does have a hint or stench of truth, change it quick, but don't clear off. He does bloody well need you now!!! Keep the communication going with him, and giving him love in words and deeds.
Let him know you'll always be there for him, no matter how f##ked up you feel on a day to day basis. And if he :roll: at you, that's what boys do often. But the message still gets through. Really it does.
And if he seems self-sufficient, and outta touch, maybe he's doing that out of love for you, to not put pressure on you. What you wouldn't want I'm sure is for him to ever have interpreted your personal struggles as disinterest in him, or more important than him, would you? See, more questions. Sorry? Maybe they are both (H and son) seeming independant, okay, self-sufficiant, just to give you room to deal with stuff. People who love us do that sometimes. And sometimes we mis-read it. I really don't know. I'm just chuckin' balls (ideas) at you. Have any hit you yet???
Here's a totally gross scary idea. Do you worry that a counsellor might take his side against you? TA DA!!!! Could that be it??? Or the counsellor might misread you and re-interpret you back to your husband in an ignorant and unfavourable light? We all know they can do this, the stupid bastards.
One spouse usually comes up smellin' like roses, and the other spouse like rose fertiliser, or shit to put it politely. That's me, the fertiliser. I usually end up smellin' like shit in joint counselling so I avoid it like the plague too. But you gotta keep goin' till you find a good one. They are out there, or so I'm told. Yeah right, like they said you can't fall pregnant on your first shag.
Anyway, if you don't wanna go the counselling route, how about takin' up origami??? :shock: it worked for me :D Look how I turned out??? hahahahahahahahahahaha
(((HIG)))
CG
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Oh CG - Thanks for the laughter.
This is the second time I've come in to try to reply to this thread but there's just so much here!!!
bunny, and CG, I think a marriage counsellor would be 'unfair' on him for two reasons. He's a very private man (way off the scale for Introversion) and it's hardly fair to put two women (most likely) against one man when both women are not only 'naturally' good at communicating but also well schooled in 'how to do' therapy etc. Don't you think it would be a little one-sided, lop-sided in my favour??! I could run rings round him in terms of understanding what we're about in the sessions, feel great (it's 'my' kind of environment) and he could feel very (even more?) depressed and hopeless.
No, it hadn't occurred to me that there would be winning and losing sides, just inequality. It wouldn't be 'fair'!
But yes, I'll take the holiday instead!!!
Yes, CG, he has occasionally surprised me and come up trumps in circumstances I'd never have credited. But he has occasionally devastated me as well. Here goes...he 'takes' things which are 'mine'.
(I can just hear CG guffawing over suggestions about him taking my clothes or makeup - Was I right? Stop it CG! :wink: I don't mean that at all!!!)
The feelings of devastation I feel are, I'm sure, one of those childhood things again. But on the other hand, he does do it. He takes 'space' which is special to me and then messes it up. I wonder why he needs to do that. He'll help himself to most of what's on a plate rather than check how many it's for. He hands me a piece of shit and expects me to crow over it in admiration and wonder like he just gave the teacher the best apple out of the orchard that he picked himself. I don't want to be his mother - I resent what he does, I resent his lack of insight. I wonder what 'good' thing he might think he's expressing...
Ach! There was a post I made which got lost. And it was very hopeful. And it ended with me asking him to remember (when things go all pear-shaped) what he'd once felt about me that was very special. It had been his birthday soon after we met and he was overwhelmed at the efforts I went to for him. It was a natural thing for me to do - probably done in my over the top style (esp. considering we'd only known each other a couple of months!) you know, because 'average' giving had never been enough in my home!!!
And he wasn't alienated by it, it made him feel special - I'd demonstrated caring in a way no-one had ever done for him before. Isn't that sad. And I absolutely know now that that's the 'real' me, not the person he 'sees' in me when he feels 'got at', when he sees me being his tempestuous alcoholic father. If I could find a way to get him to remember who I REALLY am rather than who he 'thinks' I am, then we might have more chance of moving forward. So, he agreed to do that.
Then something 'happened' between us. He came into the room. We had some kind of confrontation. I was feeling OK but he went into some strange other place in his mood 'as it' something else entirely had happened. I can't remember the exact details but then he said he was trying to remember the birthday cake and how dreadful he was feeling!!!!! That's the first time he's expressed all that terrible despair so clearly and at the time he's feeling it.
And he'd been reading the Controlling People book and so I stood next to him, by his side, facing the chair I'd been sitting in and showed him how he'd expected me to 'be' someone else and when I wasn't, when his nicely worked out version of how the world should be when he arrived in the room, and how he had anticipated how I would react, evaporated before his very eyes, how he'd behaved in a very challenging way.
I was able to tell him that I'd seen him do that at work as well with his boss years ago. He fabricates how the world will react to him and then acts 'as if' it is. And I'm probably the only person in the world who challenges him on it. So I've been chipping away at the very foundations of his world for the last 17 years!!! No wonder this doesn't feel good for him!!!
I understood him in that moment better than I ever have. But that's because I wasn't so bound up in my own agitation and fear. And I think I got him to start to see the reality of it all, too.
You know, as I sit here, it's very difficult to remember where we got to, but I know we moved forward quite a long way. I believe he began to understand. I've never been able to be that gentle with him before, but it's the first time he's been open enough to hear.
That book Controlling People is very scary reading. But it's very, very good. It really helps you understand what's going on in other people who need to control their environment for whatever reason.
We talked some more about how he 'sees' me as his father. But I'm not his father - I'm the birthday girl!!! And I deserve to be loved and honoured, not abhored and feared. And, although my H would make a great Jeeves or Parker, I deserve to be supported, not 'served'!!! And the same goes for my son!!!
My son even said one day 'don't treat me like a Prince'!!! He's started telling my H NOT to do things for him that he doesn't want to do. But my H has a need to 'comply' beyond reasoning. And to resent the 'inconvenience' of the demands at the same time. And I know that the next time it happens I'll despair again because it's gone on for so long but there is hope really. I think.
R
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rosencrantz,
Competent marriage therapists don't let sessions become unequal. They don't take sides. They don't allow it to be a "ganging up" situation. And they aren't all women.
From your description, you are trying to be his therapist. But a spouse can't do that -- it doesn't work. And he can't "take" your space. You probably let him. That's what a therapist would help both of you improve. The therp would help you to retain your space and would help him stop being so intrusive.
my two cents..given in friendship.
bunny
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Dear Rosencrantz,
Just now had the opportunity to glance at this thread...yes Rosie, emotional convenience..loaded but true..has a different meaning ( convenience) for everyone.
As a man, I have to let you know there's only so much you can know about men..the rest you have to accept. Never mind the how to books on approaches, differences..it's enough for you to know that we just are not the same..vive la difference!
i think growing older/bolder/wiser etc. is all about acceptance. There are no formulas it seems..just clues on how things can go better. How much can you know another person, man or woman..like it or not we all have our own agendas! And you know..no matter what you or I do, men and women will always get married for the right reasons and have children..for the right reasons! and make mistakes, and fail, and fall and recover..what we don't understand about our mistakes and successes is our destiny. I'm more and more convinced of that..
when everything came apart ( or together?) for me, it was only after i had verbalized inside myself that I wasn't fighting anymore..that I was launching my raft down the stream of life..that I was letting go..soon after my destiny ( this is the only way I can describe it at this time) caught up to me.
C came into my life at the right time, not as a rebound..at the right time..and the rest WILL BE history. I'm not going through a tranquil, guilt free time here! BUT i'm not giving in to those passing emotions that have literally plagued me all my life...i'm no longer expecting perfection from myself in order to satisfy the expectations of those who instilled those reflexes in me.
I'm exploring and creating who I am...whereas before I was stagnating in an illusion of perfection which was nothing more than a conditioned response a la Pavlov.
I'll say it again..i'm determined to be happy and no longer obsessed with being perfect in order to maybe experience some joy and peace in my life. I have to take the risk, or dare to be myself..if i'm wrong or misguided i've resolved to treat it as a learning experience and nothing more. As C has said to me when i've been stressed out right smack in the middle of passion..."it's ok..just let it happen"
I'm letting it happen..which also means allowing it to happen. It's at a deep and personal level and has nothing to do with being irresponsible. Again it's not do it 'cos it feels good, it's do it SO IT FEELS GOOD! Guilt sucks Rosencrantz and so does shame...i'm fighting those two demons and am finding out that it is vital to my finally loving myself.
Just let it happen, It's ok..
Love Nic :)
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Yes, CG, he has occasionally surprised me and come up trumps in circumstances I'd never have credited. But he has occasionally devastated me as well. Here goes...he 'takes' things which are 'mine'.
(I can just hear CG guffawing over suggestions about him taking my clothes or makeup - Was I right? Stop it CG! :wink: I don't mean that at all!!!)
The feelings of devastation I feel are, I'm sure, one of those childhood things again. But on the other hand, he does do it. He takes 'space' which is special to me and then messes it up. I wonder why he needs to do that. He'll help himself to most of what's on a plate rather than check how many it's for. He hands me a piece of shit and expects me to crow over it in admiration and wonder like he just gave the teacher the best apple out of the orchard that he picked himself. I don't want to be his mother - I resent what he does, I resent his lack of insight. I wonder what 'good' thing he might think he's expressing...
R
Hi Rosencrantz, there is a lot in here to understand but I immediately connected on some level with these comments of yours about you H. This type of thing happens with my H. He's not introverted now. He was, very, but so much of me has rubbed off on him. hahahahaha
No, actually I think he was a closet extrovert, but all of his hang-ups and insecurities made him use an introvert persona to cover up ever looking stupid or being laughed at. He hates being laughed at. Well I laugh at him all the time hahahaha, cause I laugh all the time, so now he's just so used to it and (maybe in a kinky way) has learned it's not so bad, or at least it's not the end of the world. :wink:
But he always takes what's mine and 'just doesn't get it'.
Like if I buy a new book, he'll take it and start reading it without asking. Not from cover to cover though, just a bit here and there. Then when I want it I can't find it. And then after he's skimmed it, sometimes he'll tell me its crap, and ask me why I'm wasting my time reading it. :x I love biographies and he'll ask what I could possibly find of interest about Eva or Rubin or whoever, and give me some superficial, completely ignorant, un-read opinion about them.
Meanwhile, I've climbed into the psyche of the subject of the bio book and bonded with them, sometimes almost feel them inside me, and almost can't help hating him attacking them ignorantly and uselessly.
I've gotta have music playing. It helps me think and relax. He'll come in just go over and turn my music off or right down. He says because he doesn't like it. I could never do this to anyone. He says things like, "I can't think with that crap on." :x
Then, and this has often been the big one. He'll take credit for my work if he can get away with it. I haven't ever done this to anyone. One time, (ouch this hurt), his company wanted a new marketing script written. The one they had was failing magnificently. This area (scripts, sales and marketing) is something I've done a lot of freelancing with in the past with a fair bit of success. He knew this, (of course) and told his boss he could solve their problems and would do a good one for them. No charge. What a hero. He saved the company and saved the day.
No worries, he came home with the old one (script) and asked/told me to do one for his boss. I didn't want to for a whole bunch of reasons, (too long a story) mainly cause I've been my husbands sort of creativity-coach in that company, helped him pull off some pretty huge business. I got less than no recognition, such as his ego blew out of control as a result of his tremendous success our marriage & kids suffered terribly as a result blaaah blaah blaah. Let's just say he was rewarded with and rewarded himself with wine women and song.
But I eventually caved and agreed to do it if my name went on it and I got the credit. I couldn't stand the thought of them 'rewarding' him personally again. He agreed, I worked for weeks on it, he took it to work, handed it in as his own hard work, he took all the credit, and got all the accolades. Within a few short weeks of it's implementation it was directly responsible for increasinging the minimum investment dollars from new clients by 10 times. I kid you not. Now, three short years later that fund has grown from 8 to 200 million dollars, and the boss is mega mega meg rich. I wrote it shortly a couple of months before Xmas, and found out he hadn't kept his side of the deal when he refused to take me to the Co Xmas party. I couldn't understand why he didn't want to take me. He was making strange excuses, then the truth came out. Pathetic isn't it. It's all so stupid and needless.
My H has apologosed to me, and probably wouldn't do it again I'm sure. But he has justified this by saying things like "Well you still benefitted from it by the increased commissions I earned."
But that's not the point to me. The thing that sucks to me is it's on his resume not mine. :x :x That was my work and it was damn good and he stole, plagiarised it from me. All sorts of stuff like that happened over the years, but I guess mostly smaller stuff, although a couple of other biggee's are hovering in the back of my mind. :x
Or litle things like when we would go out in my car he wouldn't let me drive and would get angry if I tried to. I just put my foot down now and say, "No way, it's my car, I'm driving."
I'm learning to say no to him all the time now. Like with the music, I'm starting to tell him, "Please don't touch that music. I'm enjoying it" or "This is my new book and I don't want you to read it till I'm finished." It's not quite good enough, it's a bit like telling a child, but he does seem to respond quicker nowdays with a lot less wrangling and debating. It's a pain having to be like this but I feel I have to start somewhere. After all, I'm responsible for letting it go on for as long as it has. And he's adapting without too much fuss really now.
I really didn't see before how overly-ridiculously-stupidly-weakly-self destructively accommadating I was. All I sensed-knew was that inside, secretly, I resented even hated every saintly minute of it. Now when I say "No" when he's crowding my needs and desires out, I feel good, even though it's a pain to have to remind him. I'm taking more and more responsibility for deciding for myself what I will and won't accept, and I'm nurturing my own needs and wants, and seeing where that leads me.
Thanks for sharing all those thoughts of yours and giving me the opportunity to hoe a row over here with you. I know this is probably nothing like your H, but your coments led me here and it's something I've never really put a lot of structured thought into before, so thanks for that.
(((HIG x 2)))
CG
PS, I just re-read through and I'm all over the show with my past and present tenses. Please excuse that, I've no time to fix, let's just say it's all a work in progress and mostly he's stopping a lot of it, but he still does some of it sometimes. Although I have to say it is greatly improved on 2 and 3 years ago. Thank goodness. :D
I just have to remain vigilant and continue re-claiming my rightful personal space and entitlements, and when, necessary remind him or even insist he respect this too. Ain't nobody gonna' stop me now :wink: no matter how long it takes.
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Hi Nic - Thanks for your thoughts. I'm glad you're 'on your way'!! Good to see you back. Good luck!! :)
CG - My little bits of space seem much more insignificant. To take your creativity as his own...he must really admire you and devalue himself to have to do that. A great big empty hole. It's reminding me of my mother wanting to take my confidence, believing it to be hers. Your H really believed his own PR didn't he!!! Couldn't fill the hole, tho and had to do it all over again. You're his drug, CG!!! You wanna warn him what happened to 'Rumpelstilskin'!!! :wink:
I think your laughter has had an interesting effect on my H!!! I've read a couple of your 'shorts' to him including that one about the pink pussycat. And then, soon after, he laughed at me, too!!! Genuine laughter. What a miracle! What a relief!!! I don't want to be taken too seriously. I want to be 'me' and taken seriously but lightly!!! There's that little twinge of joy on the horizon!!! If he can relax enough to laugh...!
He stopped laughing a long time ago. People thought I was good for him because the ramrod back relaxed a little; but I think others thought otherwise cos he stopped laughing. Oh the shame again. But I took HIM too seriously! I can't bear the sullen moods, they last for days and I get caught up in cajoling him back out. (Ach, my son and I play that game too - it isn't natural to him and I've just realised where he learnt it!!!)
He started meditation a few years ago - he's just got a new tape and it seems to be working miracles!!!
Hi bunny - I appreciate the 'in friendship'. :) I hear what you are saying - I have a little 'but' lurking on my tongue. Have you ever thought of marriage this way : that we marry in order to become who we must be - and mutual 'therapy' is part of it??? We listen, we learn 'how', we help and support, we offer suggestions to each other, we learn from each other. That's how it 'should' be, could be, can be...
If I offer my H a book, I don't 'expect' him to get out of it what I want him to get out of it - he's free to become who he must. But if it opens a door to further communication...or language we can use...then that gives hope. We learnt about the differences between Extraverts and Introverts together early on in our marriage and it saved us untold grief and misunderstandings. Perhaps especially so as we were each at the furthest end of the scale away from each other, such different needs of each other, of 'life'.
We have 'marriage guidance' here in the UK - I still think that an environment in which I feel comfortable and he doesn't is less than 'fair'. You know - 'talk about your feelings' :shock: for him; oh yeah 8) for me. I can either take advantage of my advantage or feel resentment that he gets special treatment/more help after all the years of work I've put in!!!!!
And I don't have the right to insist on his apple cart being upset anyway. It's his life, his psyche we're talking about here. Defences are there for a purpose and I don't want to be responsible for 'breaking him down' just to suit my life priorities. :)
Like my mother - it's all very well expecting her to not be abusive, but there are layers of pain there in her - what might it uncover for her if I demand that she be different? It's not my responsibility or right to force her hand if I'm not prepared to be there for her as it all unfolds. And I think I don't like the woman!! Let sleeping nightmares lie. I'll just work on being as whole as I can be so she can't find the way in to do the damage. I may never achieve that of course.
No, (back to H) he has to find his own ways, not have them imposed just cos I think they're the 'right' way. He likes reading so reading a book won't kill him!!
Just got to get the balance between arrogance and humility right :wink: Do you know what I mean ie this much knowing what's right (standing up for my own values - when I manage to work them out!!), and this much knowing how far NOT to push it (falling over the edge into 'controlling' just as much as he does)!!! It's really hard to know where that balance lies but we both have to find it and if we find it together then that will be good.
I found thinking that through very soothing!!!
Hugs
R
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Hello Nic, thanks for your thoughts ?? Glad you're on your way???Nice to see you back???Good Luck..smile??? :o
What's that all about Rosencrantz? Maybe i'm tired but I feel brushed off by that little blurb!! I'm not mad or ticked..don't get me wrong..not even miffed..but no no ..that's not you Rosencrantz. You inquire about men and get a post from a man..albeit a Gay one ( :P ) yet a man nonetheless, and you thank me for my thoughts? Frankly i'm puzzled. Is it that you won't go there or are you mulling over what i've written. Is it too simple perhaps ( remember it's a lot more difficult to simplify one's life than to complicate it..ACON TO ACON, nudge nudge..) to consider that men don't really need to be understood to that degree?
I have lots of questions and would love a discussion with you on this one..perhaps I should let you fire away..I'm a guy! In german we say jokingly: Ich bin ein Mann mit Vergangenheit! I'm a man with a past..goes for women too..let's explore together.
I miss you at that level..let's talk 'kay?
No no..i'm not going for one little sentence at the beginning of your long post, before you run off to play with our other friends! :?
Love ya to bits!
Nic x :D
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
I just finally fell off the mountain.
I can't cope with all the needs that there are on this board.
GO AWAY!
By what right do you make demands of me!!!
You have demanded of me via pm in the past. I have, at a distance, warily, met those needs. I did not ask that you have 'need' of me. You did not ask if I was willing. I AM NOT WILLING.
I have spent the worst emotional month of my life coping with the feelings that came up on the anniversary of my father's death. I surprised myself by discovering I'd 'experienced' my father in someone else on this board and lost that 'friend' as a result - work out the feelings created by one loss by creating another one. Groan! I've lost a friend as well as a father. And a mother and my history all in one. My whole life turned upside down and inside out by one simple ordinary act of dying.
I have spent a year trying to cope with the demands of my egotistical freaked-out freaking blaming manipulative mother. A year trying to reach my cantankerous 'ornery son. A year trying to reach an H who sulks at the drop of a hat. A raw year on edge all the time in case I tip over into anger and rage. Anger and rage mounting up over the years, building up into a marvellous crescendo and cascading in volcanic lava right now.
Not long ago I had to deal with someone else here who 'needed' my attention. I did not want to play and tried to be considerate but she turned on me with venom (and craziness) - she was hurt and felt she had a right to hurt me - and all sorts of exhausting rubbish came out of the woodwork as a result.
I've just been trying to deal with somebody else's feelings about being ignored - meaning why aren't I attending more, I'm bad for ignoring her. The madness of the presupposition that I am. Just squeak past that one still intact - barely - I probably lost another friend because I was 'seen' not to pay enough attention and I'm wondering 'what's going on here'??? To pay more attention can't be right - but both of them succeeded in getting LOADS of attention from me and I'm beginning to feel manipulated (even tho it wasn't consciously done).
So finally I find myself responding to far too many things to avoid yet another confrontation.
And then YOU turn up making demands to be heard. More, more, more. I acknowledged you. I sent you good wishes. I gave you a smile. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT. No question mark, because really I don't want to know.
I AM EXHAUSTED.
I CANNOT BE HERE FOR EVERYBODY! I can't even be here enough for the people I WANT to be here for, people who have given me their time, the people I owe (because I want to). You have recently come back on this board after a long time away from it - where were you when I was in need of support???!!! Just turn up and expect - what??! No, I don't want to know. You posted here in order to take. :shock: I'm here until 1 or 2am; here for hours during the day. There's nothing of me left. What about my life, my family, my work???
You have no idea about my life prior to marriage and family. You cannot know what unhappy memories you triggered when you came back with 'news' and strange horrible jokes. A box, none of your business, nobody else's business. I've got enough to deal with. The past is the past. But no, I am not allowed. Well, I demand!!! You made your choices and I shall make mine. GO AWAY.
You said : As a man, I have to let you know there's only so much you can know about men..the rest you have to accept. . So, what more is there to communicate. Sounds like a dead end to me. I can't know, just accept. So I accept not knowing. End of communication. What's more to say.
I cannot look after other people's feelings to the extent they want. I cannot 'contain' any more of what other people decide I'm here for. 1 then 2 then 3 - who's next?
I 'contribute' to threads; other people contribute to 'mine'. That's all there is, that's all there need be. There is no obligation to respond to each and every post in reply. There isn't time enough. This board is taking over my life. Hours and hours and hours trying to meet 'needs' and soothe hurt feelings. Feelings other people should take their own responsibility for, not me. I'm exhausted and worthy of ridicule.
When I first arrived here, I spoke when something spoke to me. Then people started to ask for help behind the scenes. I responded very inadequately and in great effort and discomfort. I can't help 'on demand' or when I 'try' to do so. Like CG cannot be humourous on demand. I can only reach out when something in me is switched on. Some people 'switch' me on; some posts 'switch' me on. Light bulbs go off. And sometimes my 'switching on' is not experienced as a positive thing and then there's hell to pay.
AND I'm dealing with a work scenarios of two years' duration where management has been colluding with staff to harrass and verbally abuse me. So many mixed messages, it's a wonder I'm still standing. Even my healer and cleaner cross so many boundaries I'm cross-eyed.
ENOUGH!
Who are the bloody Ns around here???
Me, considerate? Considerate, no more. I'LL be the N in everybody else's life. N - here I am - an N - my life, my feelings, my needs. Me, first. Bugger off to the rest of you. Well done. You finally got rid of me. The straw which broke the camel's back.
R
Really, Nic - wouldn't you rather have had just one little sentence?????!?
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Like CG cannot be humourous on demand. I can only reach out when something in me is switched on.
I know how ya' feel :x Go with it. :D :D
Really, Nic - wouldn't you rather have had just one little sentence?????!?
hahahahahahahahahaahahah
Go Rosencrantz. Define away baby. Set your own boundaries. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
CG
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
I just finally fell off the mountain.
I can't cope with all the needs that there are on this board.
GO AWAY!
By what right do you make demands of me!!!
You have demanded of me via pm in the past. I have, at a distance, warily, met those needs. I did not ask that you have 'need' of me. You did not ask if I was willing. I AM NOT WILLING.
I have spent the worst emotional month of my life coping with the feelings that came up on the anniversary of my father's death. I surprised myself by discovering I'd 'experienced' my father in someone else on this board and lost that 'friend' as a result - work out the feelings created by one loss by creating another one. Groan! I've lost a friend as well as a father. And a mother and my history all in one. My whole life turned upside down and inside out by one simple ordinary act of dying.
I have spent a year trying to cope with the demands of my egotistical freaked-out freaking blaming manipulative mother. A year trying to reach my cantankerous 'ornery son. A year trying to reach an H who sulks at the drop of a hat. A raw year on edge all the time in case I tip over into anger and rage. Anger and rage mounting up over the years, building up into a marvellous crescendo and cascading in volcanic lava right now.
Not long ago I had to deal with someone else here who 'needed' my attention. I did not want to play and tried to be considerate but she turned on me with venom (and craziness) - she was hurt and felt she had a right to hurt me - and all sorts of exhausting rubbish came out of the woodwork as a result.
I've just been trying to deal with somebody else's feelings about being ignored - meaning why aren't I attending more, I'm bad for ignoring her. The madness of the presupposition that I am. Just squeak past that one still intact - barely - I probably lost another friend because I was 'seen' not to pay enough attention and I'm wondering 'what's going on here'??? To pay more attention can't be right - but both of them succeeded in getting LOADS of attention from me and I'm beginning to feel manipulated (even tho it wasn't consciously done).
So finally I find myself responding to far too many things to avoid yet another confrontation.
And then YOU turn up making demands to be heard. More, more, more. I acknowledged you. I sent you good wishes. I gave you a smile. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT. No question mark, because really I don't want to know.
I AM EXHAUSTED.
I CANNOT BE HERE FOR EVERYBODY! I can't even be here enough for the people I WANT to be here for, people who have given me their time, the people I owe (because I want to). You have recently come back on this board after a long time away from it - where were you when I was in need of support???!!! Just turn up and expect - what??! No, I don't want to know. You posted here in order to take. :shock: I'm here until 1 or 2am; here for hours during the day. There's nothing of me left. What about my life, my family, my work???
You have no idea about my life prior to marriage and family. You cannot know what unhappy memories you triggered when you came back with 'news' and strange horrible jokes. A box, none of your business, nobody else's business. I've got enough to deal with. The past is the past. But no, I am not allowed. Well, I demand!!! You made your choices and I shall make mine. GO AWAY.
You said : As a man, I have to let you know there's only so much you can know about men..the rest you have to accept. . So, what more is there to communicate. Sounds like a dead end to me. I can't know, just accept. So I accept not knowing. End of communication. What's more to say.
I cannot look after other people's feelings to the extent they want. I cannot 'contain' any more of what other people decide I'm here for. 1 then 2 then 3 - who's next?
I 'contribute' to threads; other people contribute to 'mine'. That's all there is, that's all there need be. There is no obligation to respond to each and every post in reply. There isn't time enough. This board is taking over my life. Hours and hours and hours trying to meet 'needs' and soothe hurt feelings. Feelings other people should take their own responsibility for, not me. I'm exhausted and worthy of ridicule.
When I first arrived here, I spoke when something spoke to me. Then people started to ask for help behind the scenes. I responded very inadequately and in great effort and discomfort. I can't help 'on demand' or when I 'try' to do so. Like CG cannot be humourous on demand. I can only reach out when something in me is switched on. Some people 'switch' me on; some posts 'switch' me on. Light bulbs go off. And sometimes my 'switching on' is not experienced as a positive thing and then there's hell to pay.
AND I'm dealing with a work scenarios of two years' duration where management has been colluding with staff to harrass and verbally abuse me. So many mixed messages, it's a wonder I'm still standing. Even my healer and cleaner cross so many boundaries I'm cross-eyed.
ENOUGH!
Who are the bloody Ns around here???
Me, considerate? Considerate, no more. I'LL be the N in everybody else's life. N - here I am - an N - my life, my feelings, my needs. Me, first. Bugger off to the rest of you. Well done. You finally got rid of me. The straw which broke the camel's back.
R
Really, Nic - wouldn't you rather have had just one little sentence?????!?
I dunno what I did there :shock: oh well,
Hey Nic, I was trying to post to you. Just from where I sit, I was could have been a bit miffed about your comment of "Rosencrantz running off to play with her friends." :? To me, and I don't know you very well, but I thought it sounded very bitchy. It probably wasn't intended that way :?: , but that's how I received it. I went straight into the old, takin' on other people's crap, you know the one. :D 'Guilt & shame mode' when you said that. I thought, "Oh no, is he sayin', I and Wildflower and Portia hog Rosencrantz to ourselves? Is he saying we're a selfish little club?" Then I shook :shock: my brain awake and laughed :D
hahahahahahahahahahahahaah hiccup hiccup
hahahahahah snort gurgle,
and then I added a, "Oh f*ck him" to the laugh, :D "and his bitchy side, :D he's probably just havin' a low testerone moment. :D it must be from all that great lovin' he's havin'" :D And then I got jealous of you and C and your new love, and then I got over it all, and forgave you, and me, and felt like a bit of a jerk for botherin' at all or givin' it 2nd thought. hahahahahahahahaahah
CG
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Ok..so you blew your top! OK..it's fine, I accept and understand your position. And No! you haven't lost a friend. :)
I didn't realize you were this exhausted..I now know. Honestly, it's ok!
My approach has been to come in and out, like an old friend, thinking I could just pop in and reconnect without problems.
No need for a long dialogue on who is N or not. In life isn't it give and take? How can I know you pre marriage etc.? Life changes people..
I've enjoyed PMing you in the past, especially that one time I almost forgot your birthday..a distress PM from you would have been welcome at any time since it connects to my email addy. I was not here when you needed me but I was one PM away.
My life isn't this board to the extent that it is yours, i've not realized this until now.
I respect you and am willing ,as per your request, to respect your boundaries.
My needs are met away from this forum in a place called my world..I come here to share mostly, and that includes giving and taking. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Perhaps I am in a taking phase, i see nothing wrong with that either, and I acknowledge from your dialogue that this disturbs you..that belongs to you. It is a viable dialectic.
Suffice it to say that I have heard you. And, strangely enough, I don't feel rejected. But I do feel I know and understand you better. Again, vive la difference!
Best to you always,
Nic. :)
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Hey CG!
yeah, you took it the right way! :) And no i don't think R is hogged by a select group..never have thought that actually.* pondering* No..never :!:
I suppose I do have a bitchy side..but not in recent posts and not today..
good for you for blowing me off, INFJ is it?
I'm fine and we're fine..just a knot in the plank..
Thanks,
Nic :)
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I can't cope with all the needs that there are on this board.
I AM EXHAUSTED.
I CANNOT BE HERE FOR EVERYBODY! I can't even be here enough for the people I WANT to be here for, people who have given me their time, the people I owe (because I want to). You have recently come back on this board after a long time away from it - where were you when I was in need of support???!!! Just turn up and expect - what??! No, I don't want to know. You posted here in order to take. I'm here until 1 or 2am; here for hours during the day. There's nothing of me left. What about my life, my family, my work???
ENOUGH!
GOOOOOO Rosencrantz!!!! :D :D You can't take care of everyone's needs here? No, absolutely not. You can't be there for everybody? That’s HEALTHY!!!! Go take care of YOUR needs, YOUR life!!! We're all rootin for ya!!!
I've just been trying to deal with somebody else's feelings about being ignored - meaning why aren't I attending more, I'm bad for ignoring her. The madness of the presupposition that I am. Just squeak past that one still intact - barely - I probably lost another friend because I was 'seen' not to pay enough attention and I'm wondering 'what's going on here'??? To pay more attention can't be right - but both of them succeeded in getting LOADS of attention from me and I'm beginning to feel manipulated (even tho it wasn't consciously done).
If the friend you’re speaking of losing is me, don’t worry about that, okay? I never needed you to attend to me more. Still don’t. Really. Believe me. I’m sorry if that’s the impression you got/I made during our struggle. Nope, didn't say you were bad for ignoring me. Didn't even presuppose it. And nope. I wasn't trying to manipulate you - consciously or not. Promise. If you want, we can talk about that later. If not, that’s okay, too. Just saying this in case it helps, though that may be hard to see right now.
If you’re speaking about losing someone else, I doubt that because what happened was between us, as I think is probably clear at this point. Just two people having two really bad months (me, too) getting mixed up when we were exhausted, vulnerable and raw.
GO GET SOME REST!!!!!
(((hugs)))
Wildflower
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Hi R (S)
There's a lot to be said for being 'guest' sometimes. I experience a whole heap less expectations here for a start. So I don't get the same pressure that you do.
I'm glad you wrote/spoke up at work to that person. I'm sad that it's been happening to you at work. Your letter seemed a very 'right' gutsy move and I hope it has the desired effect. Being undermined by such "furtive collusion" of harrassment and abuse is like fighting blindfolded with a one hand tied behind your back, but the other people don't have the same constraints. :x This is an horrid situation for you.
I hope this was not your last post here, but if it was I'd understand. You're exhausted and I believe you. If something affected me so badly I'd have to wonder about the value of participating, and what I'm achieving.
I just want to say, if I may, that it's not the forum that's the problem.
It's not the people here.
It's not the cleaner or the healer.
These are just people, often hurting themselves, who sense your insight and wisdom and the light that you have to share.
In wanting to get closer to the light, which is only too natural, they've suffocated you and exhausted you.
Or picture the man passed out on the street, people crowding round, someone shouting "Stand back, stand back, give the man some air!!"
Or, picture the Titanic. Remember that movie? Remember the women and children in life-rafts? I am such a bleeding heart that had I been charge of one of those life-rafts I'd have wanted to pick up every drowning person I rowed past and fit them in too.
But what does a responsible life-raft captain do? Pull in everybody, and risk the lives of the women and children, or row like hell past the drowning screams, block them out, focus on his responsbility, and damn well save those that he have been given responsibility for? This is my picture that I have of you anyway Rosencrantz, and of what's been happening with you.
You find it hard to row past the drowning screams. You want to save everybody you can along the way. But, if you try to do that you'll be responsible for capsizing your raft, and everyone in your raft will perish too. What will you have achieved then??? Nearly saved some strangers whilst destroying your own family????
Add the rest of the analogy, this is also a scary part.
The screaming drowning people are not going to let you pass anyway!! Not with out a fight, they are going to demand and try to get in. They're going to ruthlessly attempt to get you or your passengers out, pull children out, and get in themselves.
I'll drop that line now, I know I'm being extreme here, but the picture I have in my head is quite extreme. I'm not going to use the word boundaries. I'm totally sick of it, and I don't think it's adequate here anyway. We're not talking about boundaries. We're talking about life and death. Mental and emotional health. Not some neat little garden picket fence, which is a property boundary.
How about a huge overwhelmingly tall and solid Wall of China type of construction, over 30 feet thick, visible from the moon for cripes sake!!
You have a good heart, but (and I fear to say this) you don't know how to look after it yet. You give way too much of it out and away, and by doing this you're weakening it, and making it into a sick weak heart as a result.
I'd say to you, if it were me, (and you've already said it yourself anyway)
work out who are the important people. And you give to them and no-one else. You determine how much, give in your own meaured way, and no more. I don't think you owe this board, or anybody here one more bit of advice. Unless you feel like it.
Just take baby, take and take and take. Drink till you're filled. Recover. give where you want, and take where you want. Put yourself on light duties. Or take off, ignore, drop the whole thing, whatever. (We'd be sad, but you know what I mean when I say that)
But just remember why you found your way here. You learned about Narcissism and lot's of stuff finally made sense to you. And you've wanted to understand, research, develop ideas, and build strength to deal with the effects of N behaviour. You can now spot N behaviour a mile away now.
But, you're also now realising there are other deeper issues in your life.
It looks to me like the N stuff just scratched the surface. I'm not sure that it can all be dealt with here.
Because you've learned so much here do I also see in you a sense of responsibility to almost 'repay the debt' by being here for others?
You don't owe anyone here anything, not your time, not your life, nothing. Funny, I know you know that??? I don't know, but after this, I'll just keep bein' a free radical, free floatin', bumpin' round the board. I've learned a lot here today. I hope you are okay S. Take care of yourself and your yourself first and foremost. A rose, is a rose, is a rose, is a rose.
Love and warmth hugs(h) to you and your mental health(h).
CG
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hahahahahahahha
I was refectin' on my last line up there. A rose is a rose......
And, "No, I'm not from the Isle of Lesbos." hahahhahahahaha
sending some surreptitious message here. Gee Nic, I'd have expected you to pick me up on that one! :D :D hahahahahahah.
Although I love 'em, and I've a had and still have few friends who were and are. :D I still believe no man can understand a woman fully, like another woman can. And No readers, CG doesn't stand for Closet Gertie. But I love Gertrude Stein's stuff. And I think, "she and Alice, Good on 'em!!"
CG
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Have you ever thought of marriage this way : that we marry in order to become who we must be - and mutual 'therapy' is part of it??? We listen, we learn 'how', we help and support, we offer suggestions to each other, we learn from each other. That's how it 'should' be, could be, can be...
I used to think I should be my husband's therapist. I felt in control that way. But I wasn't competently doing therapy with him. I'm not trained for it and I'm way too close to the situation. I can't be his therapist, and he can't be mine. Marriage counselors have told me to stop being his therapist, to stop analyzing him, stop telling him what his issues were, and they were right. I think marriage is for mutual healing but not mutual therapy.
If I offer my H a book, I don't 'expect' him to get out of it what I want him to get out of it - he's free to become who he must. But if it opens a door to further communication...or language we can use...then that gives hope. We learnt about the differences between Extraverts and Introverts together early on in our marriage and it saved us untold grief and misunderstandings. Perhaps especially so as we were each at the furthest end of the scale away from each other, such different needs of each other, of 'life'..
This is fine. My feeling was that he had to promise to read a book. And if he didn't read it, you felt betrayed. That was what I honed in on. Perhaps I was wrong about this.
And I don't have the right to insist on his apple cart being upset anyway. It's his life, his psyche we're talking about here. Defences are there for a purpose and I don't want to be responsible for 'breaking him down' just to suit my life priorities. :) .
If his choice was marriage counseling or your leaving him, what do you think would break him down more?
Like my mother - it's all very well expecting her to not be abusive, but there are layers of pain there in her - what might it uncover for her if I demand that she be different? It's not my responsibility or right to force her hand if I'm not prepared to be there for her as it all unfolds. And I think I don't like the woman!! Let sleeping nightmares lie. I'll just work on being as whole as I can be so she can't find the way in to do the damage. I may never achieve that of course.
This isn't like your mother. It's a different ballgame. I agree that you can't force changes on anyone. However, he is far more likely to cooperate in fixing the relationship than your mother is. So it's not the same thing.
In friendship again, :)
bunny
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Hi bunny - I have wanted to reply to your last post here for some time. I didn't mean to leave without saying 'goodbye' after all that we shared here.
You might like to know that I stopped being my husband's therapist! It made me a much more unkind person - he'd start something and I'd just say I don't want to know, I really don't care, it's just not that important to me - it's 'yours', not 'mine'!! To have 'let go' doesn't exactly feel good, but it's less exhausting. I can concentrate on dealing with my own stuff instead of having to deal with his, too!
Honestly? He'd rather be left (mercifully, as he'd see it) on his own and rot happily away in isolation than stay in the marriage and 'have' and 'deal with' feelings. The positive thing is that he doesn't want to be the source of my unhappiness and so makes an effort to be less resentful and moody.
My relationship with my son has come on leaps and bounds. A true miracle. He said for the first time that he loves me!!!!!! He said he thinks I'm beautiful. He has begun to trust me. He begins to allow himself to be helped and supported. Even actively to ASK for help! Wow!!!!!
This forum made such a difference. All the mean things that happened were incredibly useful. I'm glad I kept going in spite of it all - and found some answers. And the special people I connected with here made a differerence, too.
OK - so in the finish I 'broke down' - and I've been breaking down ever since - but the miracle is that, as a result, I'm finding a new way back in. Letting go of all the poison that I've had to nurse for so many years. I asked for help and it was forthcoming! Another miracle!
I'm on my second month of Prozac (the jury is still out on that one!) and have my own therapist. I found someone who recognises what 'NPD' means! And Melanie Klein. She is kind to me - and considerate and caring!!! - and I've recounted all the awful things that happened in my last terrible experience of therapy. I am sure that there will come a time when it's all absolutely horrible and nightmarish (how could it not be if 'transference' means I have to see my mother in her!) but I know we'll work on it together.
And I finally understood fully what my mother is all about. She has a need to live in a world in which she is 'neglected' - so her whole being strives to manipulate the world to demonstrate that neglect. I finally gave up struggling to prove that I am not neglecting her! I guess it will mean that I will be less 'helpful' to other people, too! Maybe! I also decided that she has no right to my confidence or my equanimity, so I no longer give her the opportunity to undermine me or drive me crazy. She's on her own. Neglected. So be it.
I could never have reached this point without the forum so it's a big thank you to all the people here - the goodies and the baddies :-)
If jacmac's around, I want to say that I am very, very grateful for what I learned as a result of our interaction. I did not intend to cause hurt or damage - I just didn't understand and I'm sorry for any that I caused. Thanks for enabling me to understand. It helped me a great deal.
And the names bunny, portia, wildflower and CG will probably be in my mind until my dying day. Thanks for being my friends - even if you didn't know you were or didn't want to be! LOL And DG/RG/JG, of course. ;-) Thanks for having faith in me. And so many other lives touched and touching. I send you healing thoughts and kind regards.
R
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(((((((((Rosencrantz)))))))))
:D Ha ha! Just popped in not intending to post but wow :o ha ha it’s YOU! :D
Your name will also always stay with me I think. I’m glad things have changed for you, for the better it sounds. Bumpy roads! Hey if the Prozac helps you, so be it. Me, I don’t like ‘em. But I appreciated what bunny said a while back about pills: something similar to - when she doesn’t take the pills, it feels like she’s on drugs. That was a great explanation (thanks bunny). So glad your relationship with your son has changed, I was worried, yes.
I’m quite overcome! Almost lost for words….
Okay no more posting from me today. Had to say hello though. :D Very very good to hear from you R. :D Take lots of care of yourself. Love, Steph (maybe more later...I dunno...I'm in shock :D )
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rosencrantz,
Heyyyy, nice to hear from you. :lol:
You've made incredible progress, my goodness! Unbelievable. I'm so happy that you've got a good therapist and your son feels safe with you and can express his tender feelings. That's awesome.
You said something that really caught my attention: Melanie Klein. I can't tell if that's the name of your therapist (unlikely) or if you are referring to THE Melanie Klein. I assume the latter. Right now I'm reading a book called "Projective Identification: The Kleinian Interpretation."
Thanks for the update and best wishes to you.
bunny
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Hi R!
You sound great! :D It was such a nice surprise to read your post. :D
I'm so happy for you that you've found a therapist you can trust after all you've been through. And I'm thrilled to hear that your relationship with your son has gotten so much better. Wonderful! :D
Big hug ((((R))))
WF
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Hi, rosencrantz--
Thanks for your kind words. I'm so glad you're doing well!
Best wishes,
Richard
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Thanks to each of you for such very warm replies.
I have on occasion popped by to see how folk are doing but my identity as Rosencrantz had become a burden and I had no desire to come back as R - she was too healthy! She took the burden of rationality and sanity for the whole forum when deep down she did not have the emotional and mental capacity/strength to handle it. Not that I realised that's what I was doing at the time, nor was it my intention.
But once that thought (unbidden) entered my head, I realised how obviously it was really a description of my childhood. How could I (then, as a child) have had the emotional and mental capacity/strength to handle the lack of rationality around me - and no wonder my parents fell apart when I left home. There was no-one to take my place and stand strong and calm and sane any more. And they punished me for moving on, becoming independent, thinking for myself.
It's a pattern I've been repeating all my life. Willingly sinking under huge burdens I have neither knowledge nor capacity to handle - but somehow finding knowledge and capacity from somewhere. Produced out of nowhere, like a rabbit from a hat. Standing strong in order to take the punishment being handed out - the sarcasm, the spitefulness, the rage - when, underneath, all I really felt was fear, anguish, inadequacy and dread.
Well, I realise I no longer have to grapple with such burdens - the responsibility is not mine. So here I am, sitting calmly on the sidelines. Waving and sending warm thoughts in return for yours. 8) Hope that's cool with you. :)
R/S
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R/S
Thanks for sharing how you really felt. I'm sorry you had that heavy burden put on you by your parents. I feel for all the parentified children (now adults) who had to precociously take care of their parents, and, later, everyone else. Fortunately you've retired from that impossible job.
bunny
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Just read something here that hit a nerve.."Experienced my father"..uh oh..Thank you rosencrantz...gotta go, the bookstore closes in an hour.