Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on August 10, 2007, 08:42:15 AM
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Bruce Goldberg, hypnotherapist, wrote an article which I've found helpful on the topic of Energy Vampires.
http://www.drbrucegoldberg.com/EnergyVampires.htm (http://www.drbrucegoldberg.com/EnergyVampires.htm)
Although I disagree with some of Dr. Goldberg's concepts, his division of these energy-drainers into categories does allow me to see why I've felt so exhausted after encounters with certain personalities.
Since I'm convinced that awareness is a good portion of the battle, seems to me that applying this bit of info along with properly placed internal boundaries shiould prove effective in warding off the effects of interacting with folks... who tend to leave their victims feeling emotionally whipped. Education and preparation are a far better alternative than fearful avoidance, I think.
Some excerpts:
"Some people, by their very presence, seem to drain the energy of those unprotected people around them. They will often associate with a victim who exhibits the classic signs of this drain.
General debility, lack of motivation and energy, an emaciated physique, a pallid complexion, and an overall sense of weakness are typically noted. These victims also tended to be highly suggestible people. The dominant partner (energy vampire) always resists a successful treatment or protection applied to their victim.
Most of these energy vampires are well-meaning, normal people. They are an unhappy lot, and do their damage by a telepathic draining of their victim's energy resources. Mere separation of two people results in immediate positive changes in the victim."
Okay, so I recently separated myself from exposure to someone who had this effect on me... but the effects were not alleviated.
In fact, at first, they were increased in some aspects. Honestly, it's felt almost as though this person had placed a "curse" of some sorts on me... my punishment for having stepped away.
But the real curse, I think, is based in my own sense of shame at feeling weak for not being able to manage the situation better.
I think maybe I was punishing myself... or just still so saddled with the emotions of the other that it took some time to purge those.
Anyhow, when I asked myself how I might have managed it better, the answer was: prevention!
To continue:
"I prefer to use the term "psychic parasitism" for cases where this energy drain is involuntary and subconscious. If this effect is the result of a premeditated psychic attack, I refer to the perpetrator as an energy vampire.
You will observe this process at work in any public gathering,. The more people present, the easier it will be to note. This could be a family gathering, a lecture, or an encounter at your local movie theater. When I conduct seminars and workshops, it is more than obvious. I discuss this concept and immediately see certain heads bobbing up and down. Even more interesting is the response of their partner. These individuals give more me some of the nastiest looks I have ever seen."
Yeah huh. Parasite or vampire, either way, it's a nasty business. I'm still working through all this and trying to mesh this info with what I'm learning about boundaries and the battle against codependent tendancies, as well as spiritual aspects of warfare against the spirits behind the real (deliberate) vamps. But this helps:
"The psychological dynamics represented by people who inadvertently portray a psychic attacker (energy vampire) fall into five major categories.
Fear is the common denominator in these individuals, and you must learn to protect yourself from their negative influences.
The five personality types are called -
ethereal, insecure, paranoid, passive-aggressive, and robotic."
The Paranoid Type
Betrayal is the main issue with a paranoid type....
"Paranoid types are soldiers still trying to win a war that no longer exists against an enemy that has long since perished. They do not trust anyone. Everyone is their enemy and life is their battleground. Fear is everywhere and an ingrained part of their personality makeup.
Their energy fields tend to be more highly charged on the upper half of their body. They are especially fearful and distrustful of members of the opposite sex. Aggression is the most common response to the world from a paranoid type. This aggression takes the form of physical behavior and energy projections to anyone in their path.
Paranoid types constantly pick fights. They are seductive, but are incapable of long-term relationships. This person expects all others to betray them, and will assist in setting up others for this betrayal. A paranoid may initiate a betrayal as a preemptory strike.
To lose for a paranoid is to admit that they are bad. This is intolerable, so these people must win at any cost. They are hard workers, obsessive-compulsive, and are usually quite healthy physically. There is never enough time for them to accomplish their various goals.
Paranoid types insist you agree with their often-distorted view of the world. In reality, they want you to argue with them. This way they can win the argument and prove to themselves that they are good and you are bad.
Never argue with this person. Refrain from making eye contact with them. Lower and soften your voice when you speak to them, and change the topic to something pleasant."
I'll stop the excerpts here for now, due to length... but, by the way...
the first thing I thought when reading about this paranoid type is - NPD.
In many respects, this paranoid version of fear was a driving force within npd-ex... determined to engage the entire world in battle to prove that he was good and "they" were bad.
I always sensed this within him, but didn't recognize the dynamics because he glossed it over so well with his facade of independence -
"I don't need anything from anyone." Sensing his fear, I felt sorry for him and did all I knew to do in order to ease that for him.
BIG mistake. As you know - it's never enough and it's never right.
Ex "lost" repeatedly, but always contrived ways to convince himself that his losses were actually wins, at the expense of anyone in his path.
So much blame... so much refusal to accept personal responsibility and accountability... and when all else failed for him, little baby-N would come out to whine and bawl about how wounded he was. Like a small child who pitches a fit when an adult doesn't "let him win" at a game.
More later.
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Dear Hope,
Thank you for this. I will read it later when I come home . Love Ami
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Hope - Dr. Patrick Carnes writes about people who are abused, suffer traumas from a vulnerable state (leading to addictions of many kinds), and he describes the "emotional vampire" in very specific terms, tho' he doesn't call it that. His book is "Betrayal Bonds". If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. My favorite part is his advice to those of us who are vulnerable to any kind of abuse is to "keep your zipper on the inside".
The whole book was invaluable to me since he knows a lot about vulnerability. He describes me perfectly - and I thought no one could! :?
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Hey Hope.
The paranoid type actually smacked of Borderline Personality Disorder to me.
Reading your entire post made me feel weak and a bit repulsed.
It's a rare gathering that doesn't leave me drained of energy and dreading the next encounter.
I used to say that it was my introversion...... but.....
not all people leave me feeling drained and despairing, lol.
I'll use the 'dropping eye contact, lowering voice and changing the subject' next time with my sib.....
instead of engaging in absurd logic.
I never feel better and sib never get's it.
Sib just uses the encounter to say I'm overreacting and attacking.
I really really hate being accused of something an unstable personality is doing: /
Really.
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I really really hate being accused of something an unstable personality is doing: /
Really.
Lighter,
Me, too... reallly really!! I'm learning that the ones who do the blame-shifting are the true vampire variety of energy-suckers.
The parasitic sort may be miserable, yet they're unaware of the havoc they can create.. no malice; but the vamps? Oh, yeah, they know... and they feed off of upheaval and turmoil they can create in you.
Also, I completely identify with that sense of feeling weak and repulsed... which is exactly how I've always felt around certain peculiar personalities.
The thing is... yes, I want to know when to walk away... but I don't want to feel any longer as though I need to run. Yanno?
I can only take so much of this at one time, myself... it's sickening, really... and yet...
the more I look into all this, I'm recognizing that many inner reactions which I've had in the past are really not attributable to introversion.
That's a brand new discovery for me and I'm excited about it, because till now, I have always, always blamed myself- shyness or whatever -for feeling this way around some folks, but now I know there's alot more to it.
Towrite,
I do like that phrase! "Keep your zipper on the inside" - - - indeed! Thank you for the referral to Dr. Carnes and the Betrayal Bonds book... I will look into it.
Found this article based on the book, for anyone interested: http://www.enotalone.com/article/4291.html (http://www.enotalone.com/article/4291.html)
Off-topic here, but this little excerpt made me want to read more:
"Some trauma experiences are relatively minor, but they happen every day. The hurt accumulates. Many acts of child neglect, for example, in themselves are not that serious. Every parent has moments of not being able to cover all the bases. A consistent pattern of neglect, however, creates incredible anxiety in a child and leaves serious lifelong wounds. Other examples include living in a toxic marriage or working in a toxic corporation. Little acts of degradation, manipulation, secrecy and shame on a daily basis take their toll. Trauma by accumulation sneaks up on its victims."
Wish I could find more articles referencing his work online, but will see whether our local library can get the book. Thanks again!
Love,
Hope
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Okay, here's the 2nd of those 5 personality types of emotional vamps:
The Ethereal Type
Existential terror is the predominant issue of an ethereal type....
...out-of-body experiences are the norm with them today.
(Sounds like dissociating to me... the ultimate form of denial?)
These individuals do not want much contact with others...... unwilling to commit their consciousness completely into their physical body.
Leaving their physical body often throughout the day is the most common method that ethereal types use to deal with problems. They have weak boundaries and spend as much time as possible on the spiritual realms. Since all time is simultaneous on other planes, these people find it difficult to relate to linear time.
The result of these inclinations is both withdrawal and aggression. They become aggressive and angry when forced to function on the earth plane. Their psychic attack on you is rarely premeditated, but nonetheless you must protect yourself from these individuals.
If this "type" sounds fairly harmless, I'm here to say that it's not... lol... :?. The friend with whom I recently enforced no contact combines this (or maybe alternates it) with the paranoid style, among others, and it is not a pretty picture.
More later....
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Thankyou Hope!, Dr. Goldberg has some interesting ideas and I appreciate the fact that he has attempted to define and categorise energy vampirism.
And thanks for the description of the `paranoid' type. Yes, it does sound like NPD, doesn't it? It also described that stalker/bully from ebay that I was writing about the other day extremely well, and it reinforced my decision to have no contact with him too. It was helpful seeing the motives of such a person written down...thanks hope!
I'm not sure if I agree with some of what he has suggested about victims of energy vampirism, or where he was going with that. Unless I misinterpreted, it reminds me of Vaknin a bit, where he tries to pathologicise victims and define them as a specific `faulty' personality type. Theres a touch of misogynism there, I feel, as most women would identify with traits that make them targets for abuse, such as being emotionally vulnerable, nice, giving, and naturally caring. I think this general attitude is a deflection from blaming predators for abusing these `feminine' qualities, and excuse to make women squirm for possessing motherly/ nurturing traits.
X Bella
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You're welcome, Bella :)
I thought the same about this info... interesting, to a point.
NPD may have aspects of some of these types to greater or lesser degree, but then so do borderline and other personality disorders, I think. Personally, I don't believe that anything is as cut-and-dried as Dr. Goldberg's presenting it here, but it's still useful.
I understand what you're saying about the hint of misogynism there... you may be right. Mostly, I think that in trying to get too narrow and clinical in describing some of these things, it's easy to lay a baseline of "normal" which doesn't even exist... if that makes sense. What I can see in this is that these types he lists may be gross exaggerations of sets of common defense mechanisms which are probably present in each of us, to a certain extent... more so, I suspect, for those reared in N or extremely N'ish homes.
For instance, I myself identified quite a bit with the robot type :? but I don't think I was a parasite or a vamp? ack
Here's the Robot:
The main issue of robotic types is authenticity. They are denying their true self. During previous lifetimes, they had to keep up the appearance of being perfect in order to survive. They were most likely in charge of running things, as they probably are now.
Their outer world is perfect, the inner world is denied, and there is no core essence. They constantly fear that something is missing and life is progressing without them.
To deal with this reality, robot types try to become even more perfect. They have high-paying jobs, a good reputation, a perfect spouse and family, and look in perfect health.
The more inauthentic they act, the more meaningless the world appears. Others envy their lifestyle. People come to them with their problems. The robot types never attain satisfaction from life, and come across as a blank. They function as if on automatic pilot and are often removed from your conversation.
Robot types never complain about the world. They are perfect and everything is beautiful. Appropriateness and being "politically correct" are more important than being real.
Uhh... yeah... that sounds alot like me - pre-NPD-ex. Except I did get satisfaction from life... I though so, anyhow... from taking care of my family.
So - it's definitely not all black and white.
Thanks, Bella!
Love,
Hope
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Hey CH, I like reading about Energy Vamps - oh how thirsty they are!! I swear my body should have been totally flat after I'd been around these vamps for years :? I definitely feel super energised now Ive kicked three suckers out of my life for good and not only that I can look back on my life and kick out memories of old vamps who sucked me dry too, regaining self esteem and understanding of them and more importantly myself. I agree with most of the quotes you wrote apart from this one:
"Most of these energy vampires are well-meaning, normal people. They are an unhappy lot, and do their damage by a telepathic draining of their victim's energy resources. Mere separation of two people results in immediate positive changes in the victim."
I have to say that most are not well meaning, in fact I'd say the opposite is true about most Energy Vamps or as I like to refer to them, ****'s :D
To lose for a paranoid is to admit that they are bad. This is intolerable, so these people must win at any cost. They are hard workers, obsessive-compulsive, and are usually quite healthy physically. There is never enough time for them to accomplish their various goals.
Oh my god this one sounds like me! eek, i used to be wayyyyyyyyyy too competitive, i think thats what kept one of my old N mates in check for so long as I used to best him at almost everything we did together, what can I say I loved to compete, I still do but not as much as when I was with an N, there was something about my N mate that used to make me compete harder, perhaps I sensed that once he bested me he wouldnt respect me, and I was right, cos even though I am wonderfully gifted at most things, pah who am I kidding im wonderfully gifted at everything, EVERYTHING I TELL YOU!!!!!! Erm..... sorry about that what was I saying? :lol: anyway, he was able to best me at some things and the more things he found he could do better than me the more he began to look down on me and his ego grew and grew and grew, im surprised it could get any bigger, yes the self love was extreme and as I look back very sickening.
Peace people
James
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I think this may be a common dynamic between some male friends, James; I am happy to hear that you were wise enough to see through it, and end end those friendships.
One of my close male friends went through something similar a few years back. He is a highly successful sales manager (for one of Australia's biggest firms) and an extremely easy going, humorous person. I love him. He's a pom, with all that wonderful self-depreciating humor and a gift for story telling. And he makes people feel so good about themselves, so he attracts people, and somehow wins their devout loyalty. Firms compete over him, and thats how he rose to the top of his field. He taught me almost everything i know about getting places in the work-force.
So every now and again, some Aussie Jock latches onto him (probably out envy), and competes, competes competes. My friend is probably competetive too, but one of the things I love about him is that he's just as happy to lose, because it makes for a bit of a fun story at his own expense.
So a few years back, a Jock sportsman latched onto him in the name of `friendship' and was pressuring him to do sports with him all the time. It started with usual things, like squash and tennis games, but then it started to get stupidly dangerous. For example, the `Jock' guy was trying to get my friend to do things like scaling cliffs without protection or experience. There was one really scarey day where my friends didn't want to scale a 30 meter cliff without proper rock climbing gear, and the Jock was pressuring him to do it. So my friend tried, and he a had a bad fall. My friend kind of woke up then, because he had a newly born son and he realised that his son could have lost his Dad that day.
I thought you'd like to know that it happens to other guys, James.
X Bella
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You're welcome, Bella :)
I thought the same about this info... interesting, to a point.
NPD may have aspects of some of these types to greater or lesser degree, but then so do borderline and other personality disorders, I think. Personally, I don't believe that anything is as cut-and-dried as Dr. Goldberg's presenting it here, but it's still useful.
I understand what you're saying about the hint of misogynism there... you may be right. Mostly, I think that in trying to get too narrow and clinical in describing some of these things, it's easy to lay a baseline of "normal" which doesn't even exist... if that makes sense. What I can see in this is that these types he lists may be gross exaggerations of sets of common defense mechanisms which are probably present in each of us, to a certain extent... more so, I suspect, for those reared in N or extremely N'ish homes.
For instance, I myself identified quite a bit with the robot type :? but I don't think I was a parasite or a vamp? ack
Here's the Robot:
The main issue of robotic types is authenticity. They are denying their true self. During previous lifetimes, they had to keep up the appearance of being perfect in order to survive. They were most likely in charge of running things, as they probably are now.
Their outer world is perfect, the inner world is denied, and there is no core essence. They constantly fear that something is missing and life is progressing without them.
To deal with this reality, robot types try to become even more perfect. They have high-paying jobs, a good reputation, a perfect spouse and family, and look in perfect health.
The more inauthentic they act, the more meaningless the world appears. Others envy their lifestyle. People come to them with their problems. The robot types never attain satisfaction from life, and come across as a blank. They function as if on automatic pilot and are often removed from your conversation.
Robot types never complain about the world. They are perfect and everything is beautiful. Appropriateness and being "politically correct" are more important than being real.
Uhh... yeah... that sounds alot like me - pre-NPD-ex. Except I did get satisfaction from life... I though so, anyhow... from taking care of my family.
So - it's definitely not all black and white.
Thanks, Bella!
Love,
Hope
That is so interesting Hope. I think i was robot once, because it reminds me of how I was and how I felt as a teen.
And I agree with everything you said about Dr. Goldberg's opinions; and they are definately useful and interesting. I really enjoyed what you have posted.
X Bella
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Hey Bella, thanks for that story its good to know other people have had the same experiences and it does tend to take a near death experience sometimes to get through our male ego and pride :? :D, as long as we realise that its ok to lose thats the main thing, i think perhaps winning becomes almost obsessive when the rest of a persons life is unfilled and self esteem is very low and the person is insecure, thats how it felt for me anyway I felt totally useless at most things and felt I needed to win at trivial games to gain some kind of respect, ah the sad state of affairs one gets into when voicelessness has its ugly grip on you.
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I am glad this "thing" has a name. The first time I heard something like this is when my cousin divorced her husband. Everyone in the family loved him - he seemed like such a soft spoken, dear man.....but my cousin, on the other hand, said he "sucked the life out of her." She had an emotional breakdown and of course, my nmom blamed her.....
Then I had this boyfriend. He lived in Nebraska and I in Iowa. Two hour drive. We would see each other every other weekend. LOVE!! THen he moved to my town and within two years it was OVER!! But my mom loved him. He was polite and helpful, etc. And NEEDY!!! She could swoop in and SAVE him!! I used the term he "sucked the life out of me." Again, she was defensive and blamed ME just like she blamed my cousin.
But it is TRUE!!! Some people just "suck the life out of you." When you are with them and have to deal with all their stuff and their emotional needs and their self pity and their victim mentality.....it just becomes a drain on you. At first, I was happy to try to help him get over his divorce - I would be HIS savior.......a trait I learned from Nmom......but I couldn't get to him. I don't think he wanted to be gotten to. He liked wallowing in his self pity. He liked blaming his ex-wife for all he lost. He was like a man drowning in his own SH*T!!
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Hi James,
I'm still working at kicking out those memories of vamps who drained me dry, but energy levels are definitely on the increase! I'm energized to discover practical methods of preventing this sort of leaching relationship from happening again, because they're out there - and I know that I'm the only one on whom I can have any lasting effect of change.
And I agree with you... I don't think that most of them are well-meaning, either. I can see examples of both in my own life - the "innocents" and the predators... and really, what's the use of trying to sort their motivations?
The effects are the same, regardless.
About competition... you may have been finding a sense of self in winning, but I surely don't think you had any malicious intent.
Bella's story of her friend is so good, I think, because it demonstrates just how easy it is to get caught up in the games of these vamps. We may believe that we're accepting a valid challenge - whether it's in a sporting event or someone's request that we help them - - - but what we don't know is that they (the predator) will never allow us to win - either in the game or in the helping.
In a way, I guess "helping" was my competition... I just so very much wanted to be able to lift my friend out of her self-defeating cycles. Impossible. The only way she can "win" is to prevent herself from receiving help.
Your N mate... I see the envy there, in him. He didn't just want to win - he wanted to see you lose.
That is twisted.
So glad for you that you're free of that!
Kelly,
You got it. He didn't want to be helped... his wallowing was his security blanket and oh, so comforting.
There's something else I realized more clearly through James' post...
this looking for someone to help IS the game.
They win when they get to show/tell you that all your efforts didn't do them a bit of good. It's maddening.
Love,
Hope
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Hey Hope, yes the competition perhaps was me trying to find myself against the madness that the N made me feel, and yes he was a very jealous person, if I told him something good that happened to me then a week or so later the same thing but better had happened to him, even when I won at something I always felt like I'd lost but when I did lose then I saw the arrogance and cruelty, a very twisted individual indeed as most, if not all, true N's are.
Also I'm thinking about patenting an N branding device so we can brand a big N onto their foreheads - RRP £14.95 or $29.95 in U.S. money - any takers? I might take it on dragons den and use it on some of the judges! :P
Love ya
James
ps good luck with getting rid of the past demons, I've got most of them out of my system now, hopefully once my life becomes more and more fulfilled and happy the remnants will drift away in the breeze as im sure yours will too :D
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I was at the pool last night watching people grill out.
This subject came to mind as I began breaking men down into categories...
1) Those that can cook and do a good job of it.
2) Those that can't cook but don't know it.
3) Those that can cook sober but can't after a few too many beers.
4) Those that could never cook but do a better job after a few beers.
5) Those that are going to get chewed out by their wives for letting $100.000 worth of steaks dehydrate beyond all redemption on the grill.
When I smelled them trying to put the grill fire out with beer..... I knew they were in trouble.
When I asked them if their steaks were still on the grill (30 minutes later.....) and they said yes..... it was confirmed. ::nodding::
I gotta say..... the men who looked like they were comfortable with the grill.... comfortable with NOT drinking too much and comfortable spending time with their wives and children.....
made me gutsick sad: (
When my children sought out attention from one of these nice men in the pool..... I don't know I kept from weeping.
"watch me jump in the water again'
'Wanna see me try to swim?'
'I don't swim, I'm the only member of my family that can't swim... cause I can't swim.... wanna see?'
He was so kind and patient with them.
I could only stand near and try not to hate their father for not ever being there for them.
For us.
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Wow Certain Hope. I love this thread.
I have had alot of experience with the paranoid. When I read it I thought immediately of my late husband and after he died I began to believe that he fit the descriptions of BPD, so I really clicked into Lighter's post.
I am electrified by this line:
Little acts of degradation, manipulation, secrecy and shame on a daily basis take their toll. Trauma by accumulation sneaks up on its victims.
Is anyone here interested in EFT? One of the things that has caught me us short concerning it is that it is recommended that you get at specific instances of wounding but I have found that next to impossible for the very reason identified by the above statement. That line really goes to the heart of my "victimization" and my extremely difficult time in getting it identified. It hid in great part because it was not some specific, horrific act against me but it was much more insidious, little acts that could be excused away.
Thank you so much for posting this CH.
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(((((((((((((Lighter)))))))))))
I am so sorry. I got a knot in my chest just reading that.
You love them so much and see their father-hunger.
Is there a kind male friend, or an uncle, you can bring into their lives?
A great teenager?
At least they have a great lively wonderful mother.
And they will surely turn out well.
love
Hops
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(((((((Lighter)))))) I know. And I am so very sorry.
My kids' dad was never there for them and even when he was still in the visible picture, he was too busy tending his own perverse needs to be anything but a damaging influence. And then came npd-ex. I tell you, they would have been better off without... and a solid male influence doesn't have to live in the home.
They're okay, though, Lighter... they know that they have my love and that nothing that's happened in their young lives was their fault or responsibility.
Your grief is palpable. I was so sorry, for so long, that they had to learn such hard lessons before their time... and yet I know that God made them resilient and flexible and full of more than enough of what it takes to grow and thrive through all that. Please know that this is a normal stage of mourning for you and it will pass.
And I know that you have what it takes to continue making all the difference in their lives, Lighter. You really do. More big hugs to you... this is so hard, but they will not miss what they never had... and they know, they always have known, I bet, where to turn for the real thing.
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Dear James,
Wow. When you won you always felt like you'd lost... oh, do I know that feeling!
Again, I'm seeing anew the element of competition between one of my friends and me, as she'd try to engage me in helping her.
With us, it was always alllll her many troubles and issues pitted against my teeeeeny tiny smidgen of wisdom, experience, and ability to help... and if I managed to make a suggestion that she'd actually accept, and if she'd actually admit that it had helped, then her next set of woes was even bigger and more horrendous... sheesh.
Now that is a weird sort of... dare! A challenge to play a rigged game... a game of chicken.
In fact, I think... "I dare you to try to help me" is exactly what she was saying... knowing all the while that it'll never be enough, and never be right =
she always wins.
You wrote, "the competition perhaps was me trying to find myself against the madness that the N made me feel"
Yes, that I do understand. Maybe you were trying to define yourself... where you leave off and he begins... and there he is, continually raising the bar.
For me, it was my own lack of internal boundaries which allowed all her junk to flow in me, making me almost desperate to help her, because if I couldn't help her, then I couldn't help myself. Aarghh... nonsense!! I am not her and I do not have to be what she needs in order to be complete, successful, and well!
Thank you, James... for another piece of one of the puzzles!!
P.S. What is dragon's den?
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Wow Certain Hope. I love this thread.
I have had alot of experience with the paranoid. When I read it I thought immediately of my late husband and after he died I began to believe that he fit the descriptions of BPD, so I really clicked into Lighter's post.
I am electrified by this line:
Little acts of degradation, manipulation, secrecy and shame on a daily basis take their toll. Trauma by accumulation sneaks up on its victims.
Is anyone here interested in EFT? One of the things that has caught me us short concerning it is that it is recommended that you get at specific instances of wounding but I have found that next to impossible for the very reason identified by the above statement. That line really goes to the heart of my "victimization" and my extremely difficult time in getting it identified. It hid in great part because it was not some specific, horrific act against me but it was much more insidious, little acts that could be excused away.
Thank you so much for posting this CH.
Dear GS,
I'm just beginning to realize the many ways in which the paranoid type has always been able to effectively push my buttons.
I think that's because I'd tune in to their fear and often mis-read it as a need for reassurance, when what they really desired was to consume me.
Doesn't take long with one of this type to recognize that any attempt to declare separate-ness or assert boundaries is interpreted as a breach of loyalty... a betrayal.
There's a stringent requirement with the paranoid... one must see 100% eye to eye with this type at every level, else be declared the enemy.
No peaceable compromise is allowed... only absolute surrender.
Wearying of the battle and walking away is interpreted as a direct assault, bringing on a fresh harangue of accusations and claims of victimhood.
This used to draw me back in, with further attempts to convince the person of my care and concern, but no more.
Lighter keyed in to the relationship of this type to Borderlines, but NPD does it, too... the difference being, imo, BPD is scared to death... but NPD purposes to destroy its targets because of its furious, burning hatred of anyone who would dare to think herself good enough to care for them.
That line you cited got me, too... Little acts of degradation, manipulation, secrecy and shame on a daily basis take their toll. Trauma by accumulation sneaks up on its victims.
That's the story of my childhood, unintentional as it was... but I'm getting to relive and reprogram those little occasions daily, now that I'm aware... with my children and "normal" (heh... so he says ;)) husband... and even alone, often as I'm reading here on the board, recognizing how I might have reacted in the past (and why) and how I feel about it now. Every day, I'm seeing that it's okay not to sort it all at once.. every little bit helps and eventually, it'll all come together.
I wasn't familiar with EFT, but looked it up and did a bit of reading here... http://www.emofree.com/ (http://www.emofree.com/) I dunno, GS.... I kinda feel like if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is... but I just don't know.
Thanks for you comments... helped me alot, too, to continue thinking this through.
Love,
Hope
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Doesn't take long with one of this type to recognize that any attempt to declare separate-ness or assert boundaries is interpreted as a breach of loyalty... a betrayal.
That line just makes me shiver Certain Hope. It points to the hopelessness of a "relationship" with such a person. I really does give me some clarity about my relationship with my late husband. I loved him for many reasons but I also felt locked into a desparate situation that I could not for the life of me understand.
I'm getting to relive and reprogram those little occasions daily
I am too and it has really changed my life!
http://www.emofree.com/ I dunno, GS.... I kinda feel like if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is... but I just don't know.
Yeah, I don't know either. It appeals to me on one level and the thing about it is that even if it doesn't work there seems to be little danger.
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I understand about your late husband, ((((((((Gaining Strength))))))))
These can be the most intense relationships imaginable and it's very difficult to recover from the effects, I know.
With what I've now learned, I can see that my own relationships with borderline-symptomatic people began when I was starved for emotional connection and had absolutely no internal boundaries against over-identification.
Not knowing what was healthy, having only related to very emotionally disconnected people, I'd take in every bit of feeling these folks could radiate.
My parents... nothing. No "I love you", no touch, no discussion of feelings.
My husband of 15 years... nothing. I remembered the other day, out of the blue, how he'd screamed at me when I cried at finding my pet bird dead...
he was just a void, where feelings were concerned.
So along came these people full of feeling... simply radiating emotion... and I'd take it all in with relish, positive or negative, and think... ahh, I'm alive - I can feel all of these things! This is so wonderful... what life was meant to be... sharing with a real, genuine human being who isn't afraid to feel... who gets to the heart of matters! ugh
Took me a long while to realize that with a borderline, the drama is endless... and the moment you try to declare a time-out, you become the target of that age old fury-like-a-woman-scorned.
And then, if you are blessed enough to escape that hell for a bit, your heart groans to return to the fullness of emotions like you'd never before experienced. Without that constant upheaval, life feels so flat... and pretty soon you're like the person who just got off the rollercoaster, after screaming in terror through the entire ordeal, and running right back to the line to do it all again. It's a very painful addiction. I do understand.
Love,
Hope
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Thanks Hops and Hope. The one thing that can reduce me to tears.... is my children's need for a father who can't be there for them. Awful:**(
and they know, they always have known, I bet, where to turn for the real thing.
::vision of 300 pound stranger (in pool) flashes before my eyes::
Heh.... I know what you meant, Hope; )
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I am sorry lighter :(
They have you to balance the equation, and that will make all the difference.
Peace
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In my county they have mandatory divorcing parent classes.
They assume one parent is going to be a menace in the equation.
It's mostly about helping the ONE GOOD ENOUGH PARENT soldier through and provide sanity and stability enough to save their children.
No matter what nut job other parent does.
That helped a bit but......
it was also a blueprint of new ideas for the nut jobs in the room: / Yikes!
Talk about looking around and labeling people, lol.
::sigh::
that was quite a day....
I think it was 3 hours of fun and frolic.
Anyhoo.... I was sitting next to a guy who winked at me..... juuuuuuust like my soon to be X winks.
Blech.
Nutjob #1, and very cute too.
Blech blech blech.
Then there were those that didn't ask any questions.....
they just sat and sneered at the teachers, lol.....
never any questions.
The good guy single parents, moms and dads, to their credits.... were asking questions about keeping schedules straight and providing necessities while the nut jobs undermined them at every turn.
It was heartwrenching to listen to and just know that their only defense is to be stoic and take it and keep telling their children....
'you're too young to understand now..... but mama's/daddy's going to take care of you and you're going to be just fine'
While the nutjobs were free to do their worst.
I will tell you this..... some of the most poignant on target questions were asked by a same sex couple (who kept getting in my way to talk to the guy teacher) I really wanted to speak with at break.
There were nightmare stories of drug addicted parents that came and went in their children's lives like the plague, bc they never kept promises and will always dissapear..... again.
Oh..... so tragic and the struggle for the sane parent is so lonely and so fraught with apathy.
There should be some darned consequence, the nutjobs care about.
Fines....... bench warrants..... something: /
The teachers said that they see people brought into the class in handcuffs bc they refuse to go to the class of their own free will.
if you skip it there is a bench warrant issued.... if you get a traffic ticket.... it comes up.
Someone who's been there..... tell me about forming a parenting plan that helps.
A plan that N will sign bc he'll look bad if he refuses.
Has anyone here made such a plan,
in case someone get's stupid....
or....
toxic?
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Dear Lighter,
Wish that I could help...
the thing is, I feel that this approach you're suggesting doesn't make sense in light of npd
"tell me about forming a parenting plan that helps.
A plan that N will sign bc he'll look bad if he refuses. "
First, it's too sensible... and second, taking that approach could very well bring you to offer him far
more in the parenting plan than the judge will find reasonable (by the time his aNtics are over).
I don't think you'd want to have to try to backtrack from a plan that you only wrote in an attempt to appear reasonable.
Love,
Hope
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Hope:
All I wanted to include were consequences, reasonable ones, if one parent didn't honor the agreement..... ie
take the children on schedule.... fail to give proper notice of skipping visitation so the kids don't end up packed and sitting on the front stoop as pick up time comes.....
goes......
sun goes down.....
weeping ensues.
Phone calll comes from out of State....
after the children have cried themselves to sleep.
Makes me want to vomit tears thinkin about it.
Some bone crunching punishment for insane punitive parents who sacrafice their children to the God's of Hate and Vengence?
If a nut job parent spends 2 years fighting over visitation.....
and 200K....
Then doesn't take any of the vistation they fought for.....
is there not any accountability?
Really really?
Nada?
Nicht?
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Lighter,
He is going to blow it in a much bigger way than you can even imagine... because he's npd and you're not.
Please... I say this with all love and tenderness... try to chill. You won't have to explain to your children why he does the things he'll do... and you don't have to prepare for all that in any way other than to maintain your own health and strength so that you're all you can be for them when they need you.
((((((((((Lighter))))))))))
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Hope.....
right now....
that's just not good enough: /
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Lighter,
From my experience, that's all there is... and it's not as little as you think.
I've had to explain to 3 children why they couldn't have any contact with their dad and try to pick up the pieces with the child whom he actively molested. I'm not trying to say it's less than horribly awful to have your children know the things of which their father is capable.
I'm saying that everyone survives, processes, learns how to live, to love, to find happiness... and life goes on.
Love,
Hope
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Dear Lighter,
I'm sorry... I don't know of a way to soften this or make it palatable.
Please forgive me. I should have shooshed until or unless I could have made a more complete explanation... or said nothing at all.
I know that you cannot make a giant leap in the midst of all you're enduring into the place of closure (such as it is) that I've reached after all these years.
I only hope to be able to show you that it will not always feel so desperate and impossibly endless. I know it's not good enough for where you are now. I remember that place. I wrote counselors, pastors, long phone calls, consults, research, appointments... every bit of energy I had went into trying to find a way to resolve this into some sort of fair. There is none.
There was no one who'd been there to help me sort this back then.
The "help" I received was in the form of my dad implying that my daughter may be lying, a police officer who let the pervert stop by at his convenience to make his statement, a court system which let him off a 15 year felony with 1 year suspended sentence and then a shortened probationary period, arranged by a probation officer who wrote in his final report that our family showed every sign of being able to maintain a safe environment for our children. Yay.
Then he started the lewd behavior again, a couple years later, and by that time, I had a 3 month old son, picked up my 4 children and moved 200 miles away. Dad went on and on about how that little boy needed his daddy and kept asking me when my husband (still not ex) was coming to visit.
That's not even the end of the story, but it's far enough.
What I learned is... some daddies, their kids don't need. And that's the reason for my strong reaction against this particular aspect of it all.
I hate to see you torn up by an old dream of how it should have been. You need every bit of your energy to be focused toward getting through this, not trying to make him pay for his rotten deficiencies.
I understand the anger, frustration, grief... just wanting your husband to straighten up and see the wonderful family he has and be what he should be. It's so very difficult to accept that he's not... and that he never will be.
And I understand the desire to see him outed at last, after he puts you through all of this, only to walk away and leave you to deal with the children he's left behind. It's not fair. It's not right. It's not at all what you'd imagined for your family. But Lighter... there will come a day when you do not feel so horribly bad. That's all I want you to know, and I just wish I could fast-forward you to that point to see... it won't always be this way.
Love,
Hope
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I've never been through a custody conflict, etc.,
but I'm wondering, Lighter, can't reasonable consequences for schedules borken, etc., (his inevitable inconsiderate crappy "father" behavior) be incorporated into a custody/visitation decree?
They just sound familiar to me. As though I've seen them in sample separation agreements, or such.
I would certainly ask your lawyer to make it as structured as is legally possible.
(((((Lighter)))))
Hops
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Hope:
The best thing about this board.... is getting feedback from others on what they think I'm saying.
I can trim it up and widdle it down..... make adjustments and figure out how to express exactly what I need Judges and attorneys to hear....in the future.
Thanks for that, Hope.
I didn't realize you heard me saying what you heard me whining about, lol.
I'm on a fact finding mission to cover my bases, as best I can, with regard to keeping my children safe in the future.
Both emotionally and physically.
I have to have a game plan very very soon and it has to be flawless as possible.
I want to look back and know I did everything I possibe..... made zero mistakes..... was proactive as I could have been.
Looking back and wishing I'd done such and such...... isn't acceptable: /
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Lighter,
I see :idea: !
Thank you :)
But I didn't hear you whining... it was more like sheer terror.
Sorry I put my own feelings into the stew and stirred...
...still shoring up new boundaries here, kinda like cleaning the wax out of the emotional ears :?
I don't know the ins and outs of all that, but what Hops said makes good sense.
In our case, I have sole legal and physical custody.
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Hops..... I don't want to have to write new language..... I want to take everything positive from accepted custody and visitation agreements and utilize them to the best of my ability.
I'm looking for a good child psychotherapist right now..... that will give me a lot of information.
My T gave me a lot of great advice and encouraged me to be less generouse than I thought I had to be.
To tell you the truth..... family law attorney's aren't very well versed in children's rights.
They don't have much information short of the standard visitation plans that seem to have adopted bc people don't have the brain cells to think past every other weekend and Wednesday afternoons.
I don't know all my options.
I don't know what everyone else learned through their struggles.
I'm going to ask at other sights that focus on divorce and visitation. ::nod::
::pulling hat down tight....::
Wish me luck, lol.
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Hey Hope, yeh trying to help an N is a total waste of time cos they will only seek to destroy you for helping them and being nice, bloody weirdos! :? Boundaries was what I was missing too, I'm now lifting the bars up to the gapping holes in my personal space and learning to get angry, to say no and to make myself damn well happy for a change! I dont like myself for being selfish sometimes but then its time to get tough and demand respect from people rather than be a pathetic doormat, i'm now the doormat that leaves crap on your foot when you wipe them on me :lol: I find it a scary line to tread sometimes as I am very aware of N behaviour and do not want to tread anywhere near their sick path, I know I never will but that doesn't stop me from being aware.
Also Dragon's Den is a show in the UK where people present the "dragons" or super rich tycoons with their ideas and ask for money investment to set up their business, its a good show except that the people who go on get rinsed for half of their businesses and make the dragons even richer, still thats life, no pain no gain as they say.
James
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(((((((((finding peace))))))))))
Love your avatar! We'll have to get Yoda and Gandalf together, that'd be the ultimate N bashing force in the universe!!
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Gaining Strength,
I have just caught up with this thread, and I saw your post yesterday about EFT. I had never heard of this before, and so I've just Googled it and briefly looked at one site. Can you tell me a bit more about what you think of it? Have you tried it for specific issues?
I am into most kinds of complementary therapies, and this one looks interesting.
Janet
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Hey James -
Thanks and love yours too! One of my favorite Yoda quotes:
Fear leads to anger
Anger leads to hate
Hate leads to suffering
They wouldn't stand a chance - eh? Too much light 8)
Peace
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BRAVO Lighter
You are a mother tiger.
I know that Nolopress.com has tons of legal info...and I would seek out the names of the top 3 divorce lawyer barracudas in your area and get an initial consultation with each...telling them child protection and limitation of the damage from a severely disordered father (that won't be hard to prove) is Job ONE.
http://www.vawnet.org/DomesticViolence/Research/VAWnetDocs/AR_custody.php (http://www.vawnet.org/DomesticViolence/Research/VAWnetDocs/AR_custody.php)
I'd give whoever your lawyer is a copy of this article and tell him/her everything stems from this.
Others just fyi:
http://search.nolo.com/query.html?st=1&charset=iso-8859-1&col=b2store&qt=custody[/quote]] (http://[quote)http://search.nolo.com/query.html?st=1&charset=iso-8859-1&col=b2store&qt=custody
[/url]
http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/family_society/custody.html (http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/family_society/custody.html)
sending love to you, and strength,
Hops
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Hope.... sometimes terror is the operating force behind my energy/actions.... I'm still working on that one, but I always have the same priorities in mind.
Hops.... thanks for the links.
I'm going to read them now then compose an e mail for attorney with attachmnents. Time for an update from him anyway.
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Lighter,
I understand. The wellbeing of the children is highest priority.
This link to the National Alliance for Family Court Justice may help, as well: http://www.nafcj.org/ (http://www.nafcj.org/)
Praying for the very best for you, always.
With love,
Hope
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Hops! Thanks so much for the links again. So much to think about and exactly the kind of information I was looking for.
Hope.... haven't read yours yet but perusing it I saw lots of good stuff.
::feeling empowered and about to master the language of non violent domestic abuse::
YA!
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You're welcome, Lighter!
I think I just Googled something like:
acrimonious custody abusive disordered parent
or something like that.
I love Google. You can throw a few words on it and the world of information is staggering.
xoxoxoxoxoxo,
Hops
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Court hearing next week. Very busy... can't post much. Thanks for all the help guys.
And Hope.... I missed that post about what trouble you had. I know you're trying to calm me down and keep me level. Thanks for that and sorry you and your children went through all that turmoil and pain. Reall (((Hope)))
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Dear Lighter,
Thanks... you get it :) Hugs to you, too... and congratulations (for lack of a better word) on your hearing next week.
I know it's been a long while coming, but it's not the first bit of progress, by any means.
Every day you keep taking another step, you're closer to freedom and wellbeing than the day before.
With love,
Hope
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Awwwwwww.......
Thanks, Hope: )