Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: JanetLG on August 12, 2007, 05:40:50 PM
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Below is the text of an email I received from my Nsister last September. I am posting it here for general comments, please! I mentioned that I had this email to Finding Peace, on the thread about 'things your NMum did', started by Lupita. So as not to hijack her thread, I have started this one.
Some background info:
Last year, after I'd had NC with my NMUM and NSister for 13 years, I got a letter in the post from my NMum's latest 'boyfriend' (they are both in their 70's). He offered to 'mediate' between me and my NMum, as 'it's not natural for a daughter and her mother not to be in touch'. As far as I'm concerned, he doesn't understand the situation, and he's obviously never heard of N. It was due to his letter that I started researching online, and found out about N on another forum. Anyway, I wrote back to him and told him not to interfere, or contact me again. Five days later, I got this email from my NSister, 3,500 words long (not that I'd written to HER, but anyway...):
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"Dear Janet
After reading the email you sent to Alf, I was in two minds as to whether or not I could be bothered to respond. However, nothing irritates me more than seeing someone wrongly accused, so therefore I have no option but to set the record straight once and for all, as we are all sick and tired of your ridiculous, ever-growing concoction of lies. I cannot decide if you are aware you are lying, or if you do really believe what you are saying; the latter being the more worrying. Either way it is clear you need help, particularly as you say you still find all this so distressing, even after 12 years. There is a possibility you could be suffering from False Memory Syndrome or Paranoia, perhaps caused by your hypnotherapy. I suggest you take the whole of this letter, all of it, along with all other correspondence, to a psychiatrist, in order to give the whole picture. If you are, as you imply, still 100% convinced that you are in the right, then you should have no qualms in doing this.
I have a copy of your email in front of me and will address each point respectively. Firstly, Alf is an extremely understanding, intelligent and well-balanced person. He is also a very good listener, and as he and Mummy are very close, there are no secrets between them. Your failed attempt to damage their relationship by telling him about the affair, merely demonstrates the malicious nature he had already heard that you possess. (It is strange that you yourself claim to be so happy, but if this were true you would not find it necessary to deliberately try to inflict pain on others in this way.) You claim you have “moved on”. If you had, you would not still be so upset.
You mention “abuse, controlling behaviour and interference”. You never suffered any of these things from Mummy, but I did suffer them from you. Let me give you some examples, they may just jog your memory. You repeatedly, for years, called me ugly, slow, stupid, boring and common. Remember? You said my hair was “rats’ tails” and that I “had teeth like a horse”, {I was 8 at the time}which was particularly cruel considering an accident had caused this. You also regularly told me I had “two speeds; slow and stop”. Ring any bells?
There was also the physical abuse. For example, an occasion when I, (shame on me), broke the rule of keeping out of our shared bedroom, and came in to offer you one of the chocolates I had been given for my Birthday. You shouted at me your usual “Shut up and get out!”, then you picked up a styling brush (the kind that have stiff bristles all the way round) and you violently hit me across the face with it. I will never forget running to the bathroom to see the pattern of the bristles across my eyelid, cheek and nose, and seeing the blood ooze from each puncture. It was lucky I had managed to blink or you would surely have blinded me. In case you were about to blame this on your being a child at the time, I must point out that I was fifteen and that means you must have been seventeen or more.{Don't remember this incident :shock:}
Another example of the physical abuse you inflicted on me was the way you would sink your long nails into my forearm. I remember how the holes they made would turn white, then red with blood.
Next we have “controlling behaviour”. This is an interesting point because you controlled the entire household! When I have spoken to friends about this, they all ask the same question: “Why on earth was she allowed to get away with it?” The answer of course is that you had anorexia. We were all so afraid to upset you because you were so thin and sickly that we were all afraid of making you worse. Consequently you took over. You excluded me from my own bedroom, dictated the family meals, decided which television programmes were allowed on, and even told us when each of us was allowed to use the bathroom! Everything, and I mean everything, revolved around you. Even so, you were foul-tempered with a permanent scowl on your face, and I have already given examples of your aggression. Look again at the opening sentence of your email. It clearly demonstrates how you are well used to giving us your orders.
As for “interference”, nobody would have dared to interfere in anything of yours, as your character was so strong and hard, you simply would not have allowed it. You always knew exactly what you wanted and if anyone were stupid enough to get in your way they would be mercilessly trampled. I remember how you used to brag that you had managed to engineer a colleague’s dismissal, just because you found her irritating!
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Continued....
Next you mention the family therapy. I received a letter from you, stating that it was very important to you that all of the family attend two sessions. Apparently you had already attended six sessions alone, and it is my opinion that your intention was to poison the mind of the therapist before he had even met the rest of us. To your surprise, this attempt failed and he remained neutral. However, he did make the point that it was wrong that I had been excluded from my own bedroom. You claimed, ”I need my space”, and he asked you, “What about Kay? Doesn’t Kay need space?”. You were unable to answer, of course, and looked very sheepish.
As I was about three and a half months’ pregnant at the time of the family therapy{I did not know this at the time}, I was not entirely happy about putting myself through something which I knew would be distressing. However, it was what you had said you wanted, therefore, I put you first and went along. I have to say I found it so traumatic that after the first session I came home and just could not stop crying. Steve told me not to bother going back for the second session, but I felt I had to. So I did go back and became very upset all over again. The very next day I started to lose the baby. The hospital would not give me a scan and I had to wait for THREE WEEKS to find out whether or not I had lost the baby. During that time I had been told I must have complete bed rest. You have no comprehension of what I went through, having jeopardised the pregnancy, for you, in the first place, and then having to wait three weeks to find out whether or not I was still pregnant. Family and friends were informed of the situation, and I received cards, chocolates, flowers, as well as offers to get my shopping, look after Clive etc.. The message had been incorrectly conveyed to you {there WAS no message, incorrect or not}, and as far as you were aware, I HAD lost the baby. Even with this information, and it being obvious that you were the direct cause, you were THE ONLY ONE who did not bother to contact me. As far as I am concerned, that is unforgivable and inexcusable.
At the family therapy I must admit, I was very surprised to hear that the “crime” you think I committed against you was that, at the age of thirteen I apparently told you I was fatter than you. That’s it! (So what?) I still find it hard to believe. The only other crime of course is that I refused to be bullied into taking your side in all of this.
You say, “the safest thing to for me to do, to protect my health, was to withdraw from her for good”. Personally, I think the only reason you chose to withdraw from all of us is because we all remember what you were really like: unlike Chris, WE WERE THERE. The fact that you have clearly lost this argument makes you look rather silly. So, rather than stick around, or (God forbid) admit that you are wrong, you have chosen to disown us all. You have even disowned your friend, Ann, though I have no idea what you regard as her “crime”. Probably just the fact that you know she can see how wrong you are. She said, “One day Janet will be sorry”.{This deserves a thread of its own - my NSister 'brainwashed' my best friend}
Your comment regarding your wedding, “threatening not to come” is totally ridiculous and simply never happened. During the run-up to your wedding, there was already a distinct atmosphere between you and all of us, though none of us knew why you were being so deliberately distant. We were, as always, terrified of upsetting you. You had made it clear that you did not want me as your bridesmaid (though I knew nothing at that time of my comment at 13 regarding your weight). You had chosen to exclude all of us, so we just accepted it.
The fact that you only remember Mummy saying “Doesn’t Kay look nice?” indicates that you are jealous of me and always have been. Why? Because I am so normal. { :shock:} (That’s ‘boring’ to you). In spite of you, I have succeeded in bringing up two wonderful children, and also have had a successful career, both before and since having the children. I have studied to further my education, and use my qualifications in my everyday work in the senior role of Financial Controller for a multi-million pound company{translated, this means she works for a bank}. Not bad for someone with just the two speeds! In one of your articles {on my website for my business}you stated that you do not believe in judging people by their job titles. Presumably this is because you joined the library as a Junior at 16, and left, a Junior at 30.
You refer to “the behaviour of a caring mother”. No-one could have been more caring. In my opinion, because of your anorexia, you were molly-coddled and spoilt in the very extreme. You had no consideration for anybody but yourself, and you have grown into the most self-important, socially incompetent person I have ever met. Even after you had left home, you still had her running around you, doing all your decorating, driving you to work on icy mornings when your car would not start. You would not hesitate to ask her to get out of bed when she had just finished a night shift, and drive you to work. If anyone is uncaring, sadly it has to be you. Also, if you had really left home, as you claim, “to get away from her”, then why on earth were you continually asking her to come round? Sorry but this is just another one of your lies.
Next we come to “misunderstandings” and “areas where we differed”. The real problems arose if anyone DARED to hold a different opinion from you! Remember the plans for a double wedding? You and Pete were going to get married with Steve and me. You and Pete came round to us one night, and you and I sat down to discuss what kind of a wedding we wanted, or rather, what you wanted. I was quite easy-going with most of the arrangements, but we differed on the colour of the dress. You wanted cream and I wanted white. At first you tried to convince me that cream was better, but when I refused to come round to your way of thinking you became very aggressive. All sorts of insults came hurtling from your mouth and I was left speechless. The one that sticks in my mind the most is “You’ll look awful anyway because you’re too thin. You said once that you were fatter than me. Well now I’m fatter than you and I’m going to make you pay!”. With that I suggested it would be best if you left. You strutted to the door in one of your tantrums and told me to “F*** off!”{I don't EVER use that word}. This is typical of the adult way in which you deal with a “difference of opinion”. It is clear you are incapable of a compromise.
I have already covered the quite comical and indeed childlike way that you chose to inform Alf of the affair, of which he was already aware. It is interesting that you blame your anorexia on this affair, when in fact you had already been anorexic for two years before Mummy had even met Mike! Also, at the time, you said your anorexia was caused by the fact that you were afraid of growing up{no, I never said that}.
The relationship you had with Daddy was totally unaffected by the affair, because you had already chosen to stop speaking to him long before that. This is possibly because you disapproved of his smoking and excessive drinking, you found it infuriating that he would over-rule your choice of television programme, and the fact that his temper could at times, be even worse than yours. Please do not pretend you ever were forced to “collude”. It just never happened. Michael and I also knew about the affair, with no effect whatsoever on our mental health OR our relationship with Daddy. Both of us usually visit him every week. If your relationship with him is “quite distant” even now, then that is your own fault for not bothering to visit or pick up the phone. Do not try to blame others for your own inadequacies.
You say Daddy was “ignored for years”. What goes on between a married couple is no concern of the children. There are two sides. They simply were not suited and it is not your place to judge.
You do have a “normal, caring, mother”, but it is unfortunate that she does not have a “normal, caring daughter” in you. It is very sad that some babies are born without an arm, or a leg, or in your case, something lacking in your personality, but you cannot blame your family. It is also very sad that you feel you must play the victim and invent lies to get attention. No-one ever told you that you were ugly, although you seem to think it is acceptable for you to say it to me.
You mention “changing” and “accommodating”. We all had to change while you were around, not mentioning this and mustn’t mention that, in case we should upset you. We were forever accommodating you and your strange needs. For example, when I first told you I was expecting Clive, you scowled in disgust, tutted, groaned and repeatedly told me I was a “silly cow” {this is an interesting comment, as it was my NMUM who said this, not me}. Bearing in mind that this was a planned pregnancy, that I had lived with Steve for seven years and had been married for six months, I think any normal sister would have been pleased. Not you. You would not allow me to speak about the pregnancy or the baby, or anything to do with it at all. If I dared to mention it, you would sigh, roll your eyes, then say, “Is that the time? I must be going”. Furthermore, when Clive was born, you were the only family member who would not come round to meet him. When you eventually arrived, after about a week, you refused to even look at him, and were still clearly uncomfortable about the whole situation. There was never any improvement on this, and in spite of several attempts to encourage you to behave normally towards him, you never acknowledged his existence. In order to accommodate your hang-up regarding children, when visiting the bungalow with Clive as a baby, I would lay him on a cushion behind me and sit in front of him (hiding him from you!) so as not to upset you. In retrospect I very much regret this, as he is by far more important than you.
Another way of accommodating you was the way in which the bedroom rules had been set. Due to your impossible personality, I was only allowed in OUR bedroom between the hours of 9pm and 9am. I doubt if you realise just how much damage this caused me. Apart from not having my own “space”, I was unable to have a record-player. This meant I was unable to develop my own taste in music. Also, there was nowhere I could try out different clothes to see what suited me, or try out make-up, which are all part of developing your own style and an important part of adolescence. There was nowhere for me to bring friends back to. This in itself created a huge barrier for me, because the last thing kids want is to sit in their friend’s living room with parents around; they want somewhere private. You had these things and I did not. I was also not allowed to put any posters on our wall, because “Janet doesn’t like them”. Your side of the bedroom was covered, edge to edge, in posters of the Beatles and other pictures of your choice, but none on my side. Poor Janet! This is not the same picture you paint, is it? Is it any wonder I decided to move out at the age of eighteen? I was being stifled!
You go on to say that Mummy has caused you “years of unhappiness” which simply is not true, as I have already proved previously when I explained how you repeatedly contacted her for many years after you had left home.
Your husband “wants to make you happy too”. I have my doubts about this one. It is extremely unusual for a daughter to cut off all contact with her own mother. The fact that Chris’s first wife ALSO cut off all contact with her mother{no, she didn't}, arouses my suspicions. I remember when this all first happened, you yourself had agreed on the phone to me, to have a meeting to discuss a reconciliation, but Chris phoned me back ten minutes later to tell me he had talked you out of it, as HE felt it was a bad idea. He was certainly instrumental in the split.
If Chris were to keep contacting Mummy, telling her to apologise for something you had imagined, he would only make himself look a complete fool for believing such utter drivel.
You say you have “two lovely step-children”. Just to clarify this point, do not forget that they were not children when you met Chris, but teenagers, almost adults, who spent the majority of their time with their mother and not Chris. Anyone reading your email might be mistaken in thinking you were involved in nappy-changing, etc.. In fact you would not have looked twice at Chris if the children had been small.
As for the “sarcasm and criticism”, this only ever came from you, as I have already proved. If our family was “dysfunctional”, then it was partly due to Daddy’s mental problems and drinking, but most of it was you, your foul temper and your anorexia, and of course the way you used it to your advantage.
You will never comprehend the unconditional love that a mother has for her children. This is the reason you have been allowed to use yours as a doormat for far too long. It is remarkable how she has endured your malicious behaviour, and the fact that she was still prepared to make amends is only to be admired. I am so relieved that my children are nothing like you. They are both level-headed, caring, well-balanced and cheerful. You have missed seeing them grow and that is very much your loss.
Having seen your website, it would appear you enjoy playing the victim. You paint this picture of a poor, neglected, lonely child, begging for attention. Is this to try to get more business? In an article, you are described as “playing alone in a field with your dolls”. This never happened. For a start it was an old, disused airfield, which we were not allowed to play in anyway. You never went there alone, and we certainly never took dolls there because it was so filthy! What ARE you thinking? You pretend I would not allow you to play with my dollshouse. Firstly, it was a bit of cardboard! Secondly, you would have played with whatever you wanted: I certainly could not have stopped you. Thirdly, I used to BEG you to play with me, but you always refused. Remember “I’ll play with you at 3 O’clock”? It became a standing joke because you would promise to play with me, make me wait all day, then when Mummy said, “It’s 3 O’clock, Janet, are you going to play with her now?”, you would take great pleasure in shouting, ”NO!”. My patience is running out, and if you continue to publish your lies about me or my family, on the internet or in magazines, or anywhere else, whether you have mental problems or not, I will take legal action against you.
Finally, I want to say that I will not be contacting you again. I, for one, do not forgive you and do not want to have you back in our family. I prefer the relaxed atmosphere we have now, without you, where we can speak our minds and be ourselves, without having to pussyfoot around a self-important, bad-tempered, spoilt brat.
Yours sincerely
{Janet's NSister}
P.S. I recently read a “thought for the day” which was very appropriate to you. It read, “When everyone around you fails to measure up, it’s time to check your yard stick”! "
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I started to add comments to this copied email here, along the lines of 'this bit isn't true', but I was putting it EVERYWHERE!!
You'll just have to use your N-aware imaginations, and think if that kind of thing is LIKELY to have been the truth, or not!
Janet
PS Sorry I'm such a horrible, manipulative, heartless bitch :(
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hi janet,
there's something really distinct about the way N's type their emails. they almost make them sound like legal documents. and they'll always claimed they "proved" something by something else they'd said in the email. AND, they'll always suggest you take what they've written in to your shrink to give "both sides of the story", when in reality, what matters is your feelings and memories of what happened, not what some psycho lies about in an email.
the thing that always infuriates me is how well they twist history around and lie, lie lie, making it sound really quite plausible that what they're saying is the "real truth", and that you're the one who's lying or disordered.
mostly though, i just felt like that email was really toxic....made me feel "dirty" to read. yuck. i'm sorry you've had to be on the receiving end of such poison. i've had similar emails sent to me...it kinda makes you feel like a worm that's been stabbed with a pin to one of those cork boards. there's really nothing you can say to defend yourself, and they play such head trips that you start to question reality and yourself left and right.
i think the best thing is NC, NC, NC, and block that email address. that's what i've had to do, anyway.
xoxo, nmmg
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NMMG,
Thanks very much for that - I was starting to feel a bit vulnerable after posting that one!
What if you all believed HER?? :shock:
I know *really* that if you cut her in half, she'd have 'N' written all the way through her, like a stick of rock, but as you say, they play with your mind till you doubt your own sanity, sometimes.
I *have* blocked that particular email address, but she used her husband's work email address, so she could use a different one next time (if there's a 'next time' - this was sent nearly a year ago).
I've had NC with this sister and my NMum for 13 years, and it 'don't seem a daaaay toooo loonnnggg'!!
Trouble is, THEY don't acknlowledge my boundaries, as I think people on here might have mentioned before, once or twice, regarding their own N's!
Janet
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Dear Janet
I know what it feels like to be vulnerable. I am going to write after I feed the dogs and take them out.
I was "digesting" the letter before I wrote. The short of it--- What a horrible, horrible N mother clone
Love Ami
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Oh Janet,
:shock: :evil: :(
How they spin, spin, spin the truth to suit themselves.
So many parts of that letter gave her away.
I can’t imagine what you must have gone through with the two of them, constantly reinforcing each other’s lies. I can just picture it – the two of them talking together, colluding to recreate history. How horrible.
I went through this with my NM. She just completely rewrote the past to suit what she wanted to believe, used to drive me crazy. It was frustrating and hurtful beyond belief; that and the lies, lies, lies.
I am not surprised that you went NC – she is quite a number – good riddance to the both of them.
What a load of toxic vomit on the page – eh?
((((((I am so sorry Janet)))))))
BTW – I didn’t buy it for a minute.
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I'm really sorry, Janet.
What a toxic communication.
Good riddance to her.
Her grudges from many years ago are right up front in her consciousness.
I can't see her ever giving you a fair hearing.
You had every right to say 'No' to your mother's bf's intervention.
As you have the right to NOT READ anything from any of them again.
(Even if an email sneaks through, you can delete it quick as soon as you grasp it's from her.)
It sounds awfully painful. She is truly vengeful.
love
Hops
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Dear Janet,
I didn't get past the first sentence without laughing... I'm sorry.... but lol @
" I was in two minds as to whether or not I could be bothered to respond" oh, my, now that is classic.
Then the second sentence: She's irritated, so she has no option but to harass you?
After that, I started to get nauseous... your sister's envy causes her to despise you, dear Janet, and her projection multiplies exponentially throughout the rest of her letter.
(((((((((Janet))))))))) That woman can try to re-write history all she wants, but it doesn't make a bit of difference.
Maybe print out a copy and have a ceremonial burning?
Love,
Hope
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The fact that you only remember Mummy saying “Doesn’t Kay look nice?” indicates that you are jealous of me and always have been. Why? Because I am so normal. { } (That’s ‘boring’ to you). In spite of you, I have succeeded in bringing up two wonderful children, and also have had a successful career, both before and since having the children. I have studied to further my education, and use my qualifications in my everyday work in the senior role of Financial Controller for a multi-million pound company{translated, this means she works for a bank}. Not bad for someone with just the two speeds! In one of your articles {on my website for my business}you stated that you do not believe in judging people by their job titles. Presumably this is because you joined the library as a Junior at 16, and left, a Junior at 30.
Janet, she does do a great job of making you look bad, but this one paragraph is especially glaring to me - showing me that she is the one with the problem. I also know that my sister has these same warped ideas - she could do the same thing to me and probably does. My family calls me the challenging one and the difficult one. My sister is the one who always has to be right about everything, has a jerk for a husband, and believes the world revolves around her.
When you live with someone for 18 years, you can always come up with some bad times. I chipped my sister's tooth with a door - she was drinking a soda and I let it close and it chipped her tooth. I did act like a diva at times when I was 15 and 16 - who didn't? However, I have grown, and she is still a know-it-all. Sometimes while I feel more sure of myself thatn I did in my 20's, at the same time I feel less sure as I know how much I need to grow now - if that makes sense.
I am not sure if Alf is a nice guy or not. But if you told him simply that you did not wish to have contact, I don't think that is mean or confrontational. Do you think your mom is using Alf to create drama?
((((((((((((((((((((Janet)))))))))))))))))
Love, Beth
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Dear Janet,
That letter was so profound on many levels. First of all, it showed an N--right out there-- in the raw.
It showed how an N Mother and sister colluded to marginalize you.
It showed great envy of you by your sister.
It showed how "history" was rewritten so she is "good" and you are "bad".
It shows the us vs. them --mentality . M and S are the "group' and you are outside the group. the "consensus is that you are "wrong" and "bad".
I want to look at the various points in more detail.
Her whole letter had a theme that "everyone" knows that you are_____(fill in the blank). Throughout her whole letter , there is the 'group" against you. The implication is that you HAVE to be wrong b/c everyone else sees how awful you are-- so it has to be true. This is the whole group colluding against one person.
I think that she is very,very envious of you. It seems like it is an envy of your talent and intelligence.
She feels inferior to you and wants to push you down in whatever way she can.
I thnk that she is very threatened by Chris. I think that the family really, really respects him. They are afraid that Chris will be the one to tell the truth. They know down deep that Chris sees them(IMO)However, he must be such a decent guy that they really cannot find much to insult him with. I bet that her husband is not too good. I bet that Chris outshines him in every way. I think that
she does not like that Chris shows her and her H up(maybe in education and accomplishments-- also in strength)
She took petty 'kid" fights and made them the 'theme" for your history as sisters. She has taken "nothing" situations and tried to demonize you and make her the "good " one. She has "everyone' on her side to "verify" the history,as she sees it.I think the pregnancy one is so obvious. It was your fault that she was having "problems" with the pregnancy. You were so "bad" that she almost lost the baby over you. SHE was so "good "that she would have suffered to "help" you,but you were so" bad" ,not to appreciate it
I think that one of the worst things is that the whole family has bought these lies. They are living the "lies" and you are telling the truth. They will go to ANY lengths to make you the 'bad" one and to keep their truth.
It is PITIFUL. I am in awe of the strength that you had to get this far and not give up. It is a story from "People of the Lie"
I am so, so so sorry. You were a darling girl that anyone else would have treasured..
((((((((((((((((((((((((Janet))))))))))))))))))))))) Love Ami
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Dear JanetLG-
I could hardly stand to read the item from your S , I am so angry and sick about it. Your adulterous M shacks up again in her dotage, and you have to respect her and the guy she is having sex with, make nice etc, because they want to play "Happy Family". Old Alf dares to try and make you do what is not in your best interest, guilt-tripping you because "its not right" (what you are doing in self-defense! ) He needs to take care of his own peccadilloes and fix what's "not right" in his own life. You conquered a life-threatening illness- these people are dangerous, they don't seem to care, they just want you to shut down and kiss your new Uncle Alf and M, be a good girl, don't make any trouble (even though they are the ones stirring up the trouble)- this is the kind of BULL that hurts children in the first place and creates illness. You S says that you are mistaken, etc., not telling the truth, but read carefully- she is really angry about your telling the TRUTH to Alf, etc. How dare you disillusion old Alf about his shack-up (what a crock- he knows her moral character quite well- that's why he is where he is)? They are angry because you won't say that the old Emperor Alf has a suit of clothes and a marriage license he's your new daddy (not), and that the Empress M was a faithful and fabulous wife and mother, and you were not forced and controlled and hurt by her vanity and cruelty--- you told the truth you beastie!GOOD FOR YOU!!!
This enforcement of silence and hiding of family secrets maims and kills children. Now you no longer have to countenance their pathology. You are FREE! Your family should be proud of you for beating a life-threatening illness, not whining about your needing care when you could have died!!!! They should go to any length to stamp out the pathology in the family that is still there. Thank God that you know this, and are taking care of yourself. Even if you did as they asked, and sacrificed yourself ( and believe me , it would come to that eventually) they would blame you for causing a fuss.
Keep telling the truth- it's like a silver bullet to these vampires (They are trying to recapture you and steal your vitality and life)! You and your life are precious. You have been helpful to me Janet when I was in pain, and I can't stand for anyone to try to hurt you!!! Spend your time and energies with your loved ones, doing what is good for you. This is a moral imperative- be happy, don't waste another second of your life!
Hugs and love,
Changing
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Maybe print out a copy and have a ceremonial burning?
Love,
Hope
::raising hand..... jumping up and down::
Ceremonial burning! Cermonial burning!
And give it another 13 years before you read anything from them again: /
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One more hug, Janet (((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Love, Beth
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Dear Janet,
All I can say is deja FOO.
My sister hates me in a similar way, but would never waste 3500 words to tell me so. She has the ability to communicate her hate in about a dozen words. I finally gave up trying to make sense of the rants. There was a time though that I accepted the blame for all the venom she had stored up for me, that is until she divorced her own children and grandchildren. Now she is trying to woo them back by dispensing a sizable early inheritance check. Mind boggling! Within the family though, I still am the scapegoat. The prevailing opinion seems to be that I'm the blame for anything that goes wrong even when I'm not present for the dramas that keep the show going.
I'm so sorry for the hurt you have endured. I've received the kinds of hateful stuff contained in your sister's email. I've never reached a point where it doesn't feel like a sucker punch.
Their drama will continue, but I think I'd pass on season tickets. :lol:
tt
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More hugs from me, too ((((((((((Janet))))))))
And Changing... my sentiments exactly!!!
Love,
Hope
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Here is an interesting respective-when I read that I thought you must be a bad person-then I looked at it from you being like me and a victim yourself. Then I realized it-this is how my mom speaks of me. She convinces people that I am the bad one. She convinces people that I am the one with the prob. Janet I FEEL FOR YOU. N PEOPLE HAVE A WAY TO DEFLECT THE RESPONSIBILITY AWAY FROM THEMSELVES AND TURN IT ALL ON YOU!
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Thank you all so much for the validation, and the suggestions, comments & stuff! You have no idea how much that means to me (perhaps you do :) ).
I felt so vulnerable after posting that last night, that I didn't sleep well at all. That's the worst correspondence I've ever had from her, and although it was about a year ago now, reading it again to post it here did upset me again. I think the idea of a ceremonial burning is great!! (Pity I can't add the sister to the fire, too :twisted: )
Although this is a bit 'back to front', I have found the letter that I sent to Alf turning down his 'offer' to mediate (I destroyed his original one - sorry!), so that you can assess the tone of what I sent, and what my NSister was responding to :
>>>>>>
Dear Alfred,
I emailed you on Tuesday 29th August, but I haven’t had an automated reply notification, so I am posting you the text, so that I cannot be accused of not responding:
I received your letter today, which I found very upsetting, as I thought that I had made it clear to my relatives and their partners (not including my Dad) that no communication is to be sent to my home address by them.
It is clear from the content of the letter that you have no real knowledge of what took place for years between me and Joan. Do you think that I would have taken the decision to cut off all contact with her lightly? I tried for years to establish a proper relationship with her, but all I got back was abuse, controlling behaviour and interference. Eventually, after eight family therapy sessions (which she told me to get – and pay for – so that I would learn how to ‘fit in’ with the family better, which is NOT what family therapy is!), it was quite clear that the safest thing for me to do, to protect my health, was to withdraw from her for good. I told her this, but she still carried on. Even when I got married, she was threatening not to come unless I was ‘nice’ to her in the run-up to the wedding, and on the day itself, the only thing she said to me all day was, ‘Doesn’t Kay look nice?’. Not really the behaviour of a caring mother.
Your letter refers to ‘misunderstandings’ between me and her in the past – I have to correct you there, as they never were ‘misunderstandings’ – they were areas where we differed, and the problems arose when she would not admit that I had a right to hold a different opinion from her. Sometimes these could be quite trivial, as all relationships tend to have, but sometimes they were very serious, and I bet she hasn’t told you about those. I do wonder if you have the right to know exactly what some of those are, as I shouldn’t have to justify myself, but you are never going to get the full story from her, are you? For instance, she had an affair (probably not the only one), from when I was 12 to when I was 29, and she involved me in keeping it a secret from my dad, which I hated doing. The stress led me to develop anorexia, which I had for 10 years, till I got away from her at the age of 22 and got some freedom. Colluding with her, however unwillingly, seriously affected the relationship I had with my dad, as he, obviously, thought I was doing it by choice. Even now, my relationship with him is quite distant, but better now than it’s ever been. Since he has been with Christine, I have seen an affectionate side of him I never thought he had – when he was with Joan he was ignored for years.
I would have liked to have a normal, caring mother, but I haven’t got that. When I used to tell her not to say I was ugly, for instance, she’d say, ‘Oh, all mothers tell their daughters that.’! When I’ve told other women this, it has made some of them cry.
I decided to stop having any contact with her after a great deal of soul-searching, and I see absolutely no reason to alter my decision, as she has not changed. She has never acknowledged that her behaviour was hurtful – she has always demanded that I change to accommodate her. You say in your letter that you want to make her happy – in that case, you will have to work at getting her to understand that she caused me years of unhappiness, and that I am not going to deal with her, ever. My husband wants to make me happy, too, but if he kept contacting her, telling her to apologise for all the things she said and did, she wouldn’t like it, would she?
Fortunately, I have a wonderful husband in Chris, and two lovely step-children. My life is great now, and I am not constantly stressed out by having to defend myself from Joan’s sarcasm and criticism all the time. It took years to get over what she did to me, and I am not prepared to start going over it all again, just because someone who knows very little of how our dysfunctional family operated wants to ‘make things better’. I’m afraid it just isn’t as simple as that. I object to being told that ‘it is time to put the past behind you’ – I’ll be the judge of that, thank you. The idea that me and Joan might be ‘brought together’ by you, quite frankly, makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck. I appreciate what you are trying to do, but it won’t work. She is too damaged, and I have moved on.
Regards,
Janet
>>>>>
Reading it again, now, it still sounds fair, to me. I do think that Alf might have been 'pressured' by my NMum to send his original letter, as some of the phrases he used sounded more like thay way she'd have said things (in fact, EXACTLY like the way she'd have said things!), so I don't know how much he's to blame for initiating his letter, really. After I'd sent the letter I've copied above, and after I'd got my sisiter's response, I did get a second letter from him, very brief, washing his hands of me because of my 'lies and distortions' which he said he'd discussed with 'friends and family'. He said he had 'no wish' to correspond again.
Then, six months later, he wrote again, enclosing photos of when I was little, to 'remind me of happier times'.
AARRGGHHH!!!
Janet
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Hugs to you Janet. Super-hugs! (if there is such a thing) That was so, so awful to read, and thank you for trusting us with it. I know its so hard dealing with all those horrible lies, and wondering if they will be believed by anyone who reads them. I worry about that kind of thing too. Don't worry, hon; we all all know about N's hear and how much they lie (and how much it hurts).
I am so sorry that you have a sister like that. You made the right decision about keeping her out of your life for so long!.
After reading her letter, it was obvious that she wasn't making any sense and that she has an agenda. Truth is not even a issue with this woman; she is speaking crap to get what she wants, whatever that may be (your mother's approval perhaps?). She comes across as not terribly bright, and as a bully.
I am so sorry you received that letter. you are so beautiful and you don't deserve that sort of treatment at all. Theres no point in responding to those lies; I think someone like that is best abandoned.
X Bella
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Dear Janet,
I want to echo what dear Bella said, "Thank you for trusting us with that deep(and awful) part of your history. It was a big "risk" on your part. We are still so vulnerable inside from the damage and invalidation that we got from the N mother( and family)
I think that your e mail helped everyone to see more of their own lives.
Your e mail gave me insight in to Beth's situation.Your e mail ,probably, really helped her to deal with her current situation(I would think).
It really helped me to face my M in a deeper way. I can see what people mean when they tell me that my posts help them.
When someone really shares from the heart, we all seem to be a little lighter. Our burdens seem to be laid down ,a little bit. I guess God made us( as humans) to need relationships and emotional intimacy with others.
My son(golden) and I were talking about that last night.
It would be so "easy",in a way, to just be alone. I really see from your letter how much I need people-- to give and receive.
Thank you so much, Janet
I wanted to respond to your e mail to Alf.
What hit me( funny) was that it could be a standard letter to an N mother-- like they have standard legal documents. It could be a form letter telling an an mother why you have to go NC.
I saw the similarities in N mothers( and the people they engage to do their "dirty work).
They get people(Alf, my M's secretary) to call us and make a plea that we should connect with our mothers. They (subtly) put the blame of us b/c a mother and daughter"should" be close.
You can tell that the person is just a "parrot" for the mother.(or new supply)
The other thing that struck me was that there is ONLY one reality to the N mother--- THEIRS. You are a traitor, insane, sick etc if you even try to say that their reality is not "normal".
Vaknin talks about this. The N's define "normality" in the family. You will be severely 'chastised" if you dare to try to say that their idea of normal is not "right".(this ,for me, was the worst part of the N mother)
Janet, THIS one really, really got me. When your mother said that all mothers tell their children that they are ugly. That hits the "top".
My mother said, 'All mothers abuse their children." I remember the unreality I felt when she told me that.
Also, they send you some memento about "happier times in the past". My M sent me a child's type of flannel night gown(Lanz) that I used to have when I was a child. It made me feel cozy even though my life with her was "cold".
She sent me an adult size one with a note,"Hope that you can remember happier times' She also sent me a Raggedy Ann doll. Mine was so "tear stained" from crying about her that it fell apart.
Janet, You were the one with courage in that family. For me, the ONLY way that I can make sense of my pain is to realize that it brought me to God. It was worth it b/c of that.
Otherwise(for me), I can not face it. There is so, so much. I am so sorry that you had to endure this. They really tried to squelch your "magnificence" (as Mandela says). They tried to squelch a "bright light's " spirit.
I see that they did not succeed, though. I, for one, am so, so happy that you are here Love Ami
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The one thing I wish on all of you is to have witnesses like I have had. Working with my mom has proved her N to so many people that I do not have to rationalize my perspective-people see it every day. My aunt sees it. My dad, on the other hand admonishes up to stop fighting and get along. I have to admit that I am very strong now and will not back down from a fight. If she tries to railroad me I am there toe to toe! I guess my mom ebbs and flows. Sometimes she is ok.
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Your replies mean so much to me, that I want to comment more on what you've said:
Peace,
When I said I'd post this email from my Nsister (on the other thread), I didn't really know that it would hit me this hard to dredge it all up again. But, I think it's going to be healing for me, because THIS TIME I get support with dealing with it! Thank you for that.
I like the idea that the email was 'toxic vomit'! Good description!
Hops,
Yes, her grudges go back years. I hope I press the delete button if I ever see another one from her, BEFORE I read it!
Hope,
My NSister has ALWAYS been envious, and I'm definitely going to have a ceremonial burning.
Gratitude,
Although most of what she's written is PURE fiction, what makes it hard for me to respond to it is when it starts from an incident that 'sort of' happened - then I used to end up arguing with her over It wasn't like that - Yes it was - No it wasn't. About things that happened 30 years ago, and weren't important anyway! What a waste of life! But they'll keep doing it till you go NC, IMO.
Regarding Alf - I know hardly anything about him, so I tend to feel he's being used as a convenient puppet by my NMum. I DO think he's being used to create drama - I can imagine her pontificating on the outcome of the brief exchange of correspondence between us for months!
Ami,
Yes, my NMum and NSister DID marginalise me. I remember at age 7 searching for my birth certificate, and being disappointed to find I WASN'T adopted. It had been my only hope for an explanation as to why I didn't 'fit in'. The 'everyone knows....about you' is something they've both done for years.
They're both intimidated by Chris - his talent, the fact he can see staright through them, and the fact that he's always supported me. My NSister's marriage is shaky, so she loathes my solid one. She sees her pregnancies as her biggest 'achievements' and lives through her kids - I'm really worried about her daughter, as I think the risk of N contamination is very real, there.
Changing,
The adulterous nature of my NMum I have got used to, over time. But yes, I don't have to condone it with her latest shack-up. I think that's a good point about them REALLY being angry about the fact I told the truth to Alf - I didn't see it like that before!
My family have NEVER said I did well for beating anorexia on my own, without medical intervention. All my Nmum said was 'I liked you better when you were thin - you were easier to control, then'. :shock:
I'm glad to have helped you when you were in pain. Thanks for telling me that - it really helps!
Lighter,
Can I add my NSister to the ceremonial burning bonfire?? :D
Teartracks,
I'm sorry you've got a sister like mine. What a bummer. Mine never did anything fast - her 3,500 word email must have taken her days to write!
Overcomer,
Yes, the response that 'I must be a bad person' is the only kind of response I thought I'd get, to be honest. Thanks for saying that was your first reaction, but thanks MORE for saying you saw through that. I thought people here would believe my NSister more than me, even after all this time. Even though this is an NPD-survivor's forum. I'm sorry that your NMum speaks of you like mine does. You don't deserve it either. Both my NMum and NSister were always very careful not to have witnesss, unfortunately.
Bella,
Of course there are super-hugs! And thanks for the one from you!!
It was hard to trust the forum with it, actually. Thinking about it this morning, I think it must be because I'm not used to *women* validating me, as my NMum and NSister didn't.
You're right, my NSister isn't terribly bright (and that's putting it mildly!! :D)
Ami again,
I hope by sharing this that others can learn something from it, I really do.
If anyone wants to copy my letter to Alf and send it to their family when starting NC - be my guest!!! :lol:
When you said : "You can tell that the person is just a "parrot" for the mother", I think that's just sooo funny, because my NMum's surname is Parrott, and she hates it!
The 'all mothers...' thing is dreadful, isn't it? I was gutted when I heard you say what your mother told you, the first time you posted that here. My version is so similar. They simply want to justify their abuse, so they make crazy-making statements.
All this 'contact' with my FOO during the past year HAS been traumatic, but for me, too, it's made me come to God in my own way, and I'm grateful for that.
I'm glad you're here, too, along with everyone else who bothers to spend time writing such helpful things :D :D :D
Janet
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There is so much that is telling about your sister's email. Just look at how she ended it.
Finally, I want to say that I will not be contacting you again.
As though you had started the correspondence or invited it -----
The other huge aspects of note are her powerful rage and her frequent reference to and blaming you of your anorexia.
Anorexia is ALWAYS evidence of great disfunction in the family being solidified in the "identified" one. There is enough pain to go around. Clearly everyone in your FOO was in great pain. The blame that she still harbours is part of the scapegoating (aka projection.)
I am so terribly sorry that you lived through that. I think you are so wise to create great distance. Continue to take care of yourself.
your friend - Gaining Strength
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Gaining Strength,
Yes, that's it exactly. I always felt blamed for my anorexia.
What's weird, though, is that MY NSISTER HAS IT TOO. And she's still got it, so that's about 30 years that she's had it - but she claims she can't have it, because she managed to get pregnant twice :?. But no-one mentions HER anorexia (except I used to, and then everyone went crazy because I'd pointed it out). But all the 'attention' (not 'help', but 'attention') was focussed on me - my therapist said years later that while focussing on me, it meant that the other family members didn't have to look at themselves, so it was a good one to distract them. That explains why no-one wanted me to get better. It's such a peculiar illness. The medical profession, and the media, don't help either (don't start me off on that one...I am having a long-running 'discussion' with a journalist from the BBC website at the moment because of their blinkered reporting about 'size zero models' being the ONLY cause, apparently, of 'teenagers' starving themselves to death 'on purpose'.) I could scream sometimes, I really could.
Thank you for supporting me.
Janet
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although some of her arguments may seem plausible to someone from the outside, the things that really made me question her version of things was:
~her blaming you for her miscarriage. miscarriages are usually the result of an egg dividing in the wrong way from the get go, so that the embryo is horribly deformed to begin with. one upsetting family counseling session should not be enough to cause a miscarriage. there are women war refugees who are being raped and tortured who go on to give birth to live babies at full term.
~her saying that your anorexia was somehow your way of controlling and manipulating the whole family. anorexia is a horrible disease. if you had that diagnosis, you were very, very sick and probably weren't trying to control your family...you were trying to control your eating and yourself, and your anorexia probably occurred as a result of living with such a toxic family and, most likely, a perfectionistic, N mother. it is common for Ns to feel like they're being manipulated by someone else's pain and suffering, and have no empathy. this is classic. they feel threatened by it.
~again, the way she would say "...and what i said in paragraph 3 proves this", as if just because she's already said something makes it undeniable reality. my xN used to always do this..."i've already been over this with you and have proved this"...in other words "i've already lied and lied about this, so now it's my reality, so i don't know why you're still stuck on this point".
~most of her argument seemed to be that she's angry with you for telling the truth and not just "going along with the lies and delusions". even in her description of her kids, she makes them sound like Stepford kids, rather than real kids. "I am so relieved that my children are nothing like you. They are both level-headed, caring, well-balanced and cheerful". creepy.
~she spends much of the email comparing herself to you, denigrating you while talking herself and your mother up by comparison. "In spite of you, I have succeeded in bringing up two wonderful children, and also have had a successful career, both before and since having the children. I have studied to further my education, and use my qualifications in my everyday work in the senior role of Financial Controller for a multi-million pound company{translated, this means she works for a bank}. Not bad for someone with just the two speeds! In one of your articles {on my website for my business}you stated that you do not believe in judging people by their job titles. Presumably this is because you joined the library as a Junior at 16, and left, a Junior at 30." this, too, is classic. it almost could read word-for-word like an email sent to my brother by my N father recently.
check this out:
background: when my sister was in the hospital recently for pancreatitis caused by her alcoholism, i called my N father to let him know, as she had a 20% chance of dying. well, long story short: it was a mistake and a disaster emotionally for my brother and i. at one point my brother emailed our N father with: "dad, here are all of the things D and i have been doing with our lives since we last saw you (7-8 years ago)....etc. i guess i'd just like you to be proud of us". N's response?:
"...Third, by the time I was your age I had completed college, served two years as an officer in the Army, taught school for 2 1/2 years, completed three years of law school and owned my own house. Thirty-five years of law practice later, I have a fair handle on sophisticated conflict psychology, know how to produce important legal results on important issues for important people, and have continued my voracious habit of reading complicated stuff. Do you really think it appropriate to treat me like a moron? [in context, he felt he was being treated like a "moron" because A) i'd told him to wait a few days before going to see my sister in the hospital (which he never did do), since she was so touch and go, and i didn't think it would be good for her to get all emotionally upset by seeing her father she hadn't seen in 8 years at that point, which i'd told him, and B) he must feel like a moron bc my brother is going to go to medical school eventually, and has already been accepted to a couple of universities for biomedical engineering...i think N father felt threatened by that] Maybe a good place for you to start is to polish up your people skills".
anyway, there is such a pattern of thought and communication style here...the compare and contrast, the building oneself up while putting you down, the projection. it's really amazing, isn't it?
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NMMG,
The similarities are incredible. Thanks for that. Why do they have to list all these 'skills' of theirs? It just sounds so childish when done like that!
What I always find strange about my NSister's correspondence is that, whatever I start discussing, she always quickly turns the subject around to be HER attributes, and how she's better than me. The original reply of mine to Alf was to tell HIM to get my MOTHER to shut up. Nothing about HER at all (except the comment I made about my NMum saying on my wedding day 'Doesn't Kay look nice?'
But she just goes off on the old, old subjects, desperately trying to prove she's better than me. She's not even particularly sticking up for my mother - she's just getting in as much info about how wonderful her life is, compared to mine(which she knows nothing about, except what she gleans from perusing my website).
Is your sister doing OK , now? That sounds like it was a traumatic time for the normal members of you family :shock:
Janet
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I also notice that N people use the same rehearsed lines over and over. I could literally stand behind my mom and mouth the words coming out of her mouth. I would bet alot of you have similar experiences. They used to sound so smart until I realized they were not creative enough to come up with a spontaneous conversation!
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yes, janet and overcomer, it's so true...the word "script" is perfect. it's like they practice it over and over in their minds, and out it comes whenever they feel threatened or wounded or challenged.
that's how i could tell your sister was an N, janet. it's the rehearsed lines in their "theater of grandiose delusions".
my sister's better now, thank goodness. i'm having to do the whole Al-Anon thing, which has been a real lifesaver for me. thanks so much for asking!
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NMMG,
I think even *I* recognise my Nsister's 'script' in that letter, now I've been on this forum for a few months, and read many examples from other N's, that have been posted by the recipients. But before this forum...each of us is on our own, and we each have to figure it out. That's the hard bit - doing it alone.
Janet
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Just reading this thread now. Janet, has anyone ever mentioned to you that your FOO is really effed up? That letter was like the attack of the sludge monster. I'm sure NC is the best decision, please never doubt. I couldn't agree more with the other posters about your S's incredibly powerful envy of you. It is so very toxic in itself that I believe your mom must feed it somehow, no doubt when there are no witnesses. Of course Alf was/is a puppet for your mom. His actions make no sense in any other way, especially the BS follow-up of childhood photos. I like how she takes time out from her miscarriage story to mention all the flowers and chocolate she received. In case you missed it that everyone loves her. :lol:
It's good to hear that your husband and step-kids are great and you are healthy and happy now. Especially after seeing that small sample of a harrowing past.
NMMG - glad to hear your sister is recovered and thank you for sharing your dad's words. That is very shocking especially considering the circumstances.
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My Dear Iphi,
Again a "brilliant" insight.( the chocolate and flowers). Love Ami
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Iphi,
Yes, thanks for that insight - I'd overlooked the 'chocolates-and-flowers' bit, meaning 'people-love-me-more-than-they-do-yooo-hoo' ! :D
My husband has mentioned that they're effed up.
Often.
And I agree with him.
What bothers me, though, is that so many times I have explained all this to people that I know well, and they have responded with 'yes, but, anyway...I'd never cut off MY family!' - as if they haven't listened to a word I've said. Talk about in denial. This forum is the first place I've ever really been heard, apart from when talking with my husband.
I LOVE the idea that my sister is a sludge monster. And you haven't ever SEEN her, either! :) (By the way, to give you an idea - she's 42, dresses as if she's sixteen and looks like Kylie Minogue did in the eighties. Only worse.)
My NMum has fed my Nsister's envy of me for years. I think that's because my NMum was incredibly envious of HER younger sister, born when she was 8 (it was a total surprise to her to get a baby sister, and she was 'sent away' for two months while my Nan got over the birth. Bit of a shock, I suppose, to come back and find you're not the 'baby' of the family any more). I look like the younger sister of my NMum. My aunt was also more creative than my NMum, and had blonde hair (as I did). My NMum just transferred the envy, and fed it. She always sided with my Nsister. Two peas in a pod, they are.
Janet
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Janet,
There is so much more I want to write to you - so much of this hit a personal note... but before I run I wanted to tell you that my mother found out I was bulimic when I was around 18. She looked at me like I was repulsive and said, "Well, are you still doing it." I told her, "No, but I wouldn't tell you if I was." End of conversation. My dad was there too. They didn't care enough to bother doing anything. And she liked me thinner, too. I was sick for years with it. That was part of why I brought up the "save me" thing - I wanted someone, just once, to care enough to help me with anything.
Love, Beth
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Beth,
Thanks for telling me that. It must have been awful to have your mother find out you're bulimic and not give a damn. I know what that's like. The way they turn it around and make you feel like you're doing it just to show them up in some way makes me want to scream.
It's such a dangerous illness to have, like anorexia, that the response we get is just bizarre. Suppose someone went to the doctor's and said 'I think I might be diabetic' and the doctor said 'you're only doing it to draw attention to yourself, and show me up'. That's what it's like, having an eating disorder, begging for help, and not getting it. You can die from these illnesses. I nearly did. My weight was 73 pounds steady, for nearly 12 years.
I've emailed the UK eating disorder website 'Beat' (are you in the UK?), about their narrow-minded approach to how eating disorders are treated, and didn't even get the courtesy of a reply. I had the cheek to suggest that the 'do-gooder' type eating disorder so-called 'support groups' are often run by the 'concerned' *mothers* of young women with eating disorders...thereby continuing the control of very ill people by women who often have a control problem (didn't mention N by name).
I think that the comment about liking me thinner was one of the very rae instances of my NMum actually letting her mask slip, and telling the truth.
Janet
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Janet-
When I talked about M and Old Alf, I was not overly concerned about your M and the way she conducts herself (although that is extremelyhurtful to a child, and she owes you a billion apologies) - I just wanted to point out to you that these "people" are trying to take your health and safety from you, in the name of propriety and what is "right", even though their hypocrisy is so blatant, it is almost darkly humorous. They expect you to treat them like the pillars of the community that they are NOT, and to ignore the truth about yourself , your accomplishments, and your well -being (this is NOT how love and care operates). These are the kind of insect N folks who will gladly EAT THEIR YOUNG! Get out the bug spray Janet!!!
You have done something very difficult and courageous. I admire you and cannot bear to see you or your heroic efforts damaged . Please take care and be well and happy !!
Cheering foryou,
Changing
Changing
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Changing,
Thanks for that - I see what you mean. They have such a strange sense of their own kind of 'morals'. I remember reading this somewhere as being an N trait, but it was explained as being one that mainly men do - the being sexually 'lax', to put it mildly, and then expecting everyone else to approve of them - even applaud them for it. I think both Alf and my NMum must get a kick out of 'catching ' someone when they're each in their seventies. What he sees in her, I just don't know. Bit of a slapper, really. Oh, I see :?
There's no way I'm going to let my health suffer like that again.
Janet
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Heh thanks guys, I have too much practice reading the under-messages. It's like a language all its own.
Janet you wrote:
My NMum has fed my Nsister's envy of me for years. I think that's because my NMum was incredibly envious of HER younger sister, born when she was 8 (it was a total surprise to her to get a baby sister, and she was 'sent away' for two months while my Nan got over the birth. Bit of a shock, I suppose, to come back and find you're not the 'baby' of the family any more). I look like the younger sister of my NMum. My aunt was also more creative than my NMum, and had blonde hair (as I did). My NMum just transferred the envy, and fed it. She always sided with my Nsister. Two peas in a pod, they are.
My mother, who is schizophrenic, did this also. She was the younger sister and I don't know what her issues with her elder sister really were, but they were/are apparently bitter and long lasting. It took me many years to understand why she persecuted me as a young child; I was the older sister. I mean, it's still crazy, but it came from her own life in some fashion.
Upon reflection this topic reminds me how horrible it is to be the GC. It seems to me that your mother has always held out something to your sister - the promise of being the favorite and loved and thus safe because there is always the implicit threat that your mother retains the ability to treat her as she has treated you - to send her to hell as she has sent you. But in order to be 'safe' from the vengeance of the N, the GC has to give up truth. They have to sell their soul and continue to do so. That sucks. Your sister may well also envy you your freedom and ability to call your soul your own and may always be trying to reassure herself that her choices were worth it.
My sister and I are at two different points of the triangle too, though our situation is much less intense. It's hard for me - I keep erasing my sentences in this post. I know things about us that I've never written and are hard to say. I feel I must keep reaching out to her even though it is like grasping a sharp knife. I haven't given up yet and there are some redeeming things, perhaps. But perhaps not. We are big on the appearance of civility in out dysfunctional house.
But in the final analysis it is all a set up to serve your mom's warped needs and in a way your S is a poor lost soul whose worse nature has been cultivated since birth. It's pretty sickening. But that doesn't mean it isn't down to her own responsibility what she says and does. Block that sludge!
Oh, here is the source of my sludge monster thought: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedorah
:lol: Now put a Kylie 80's side ponytail and fedora on that smog monster.
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What bothers me, though, is that so many times I have explained all this to people that I know well, and they have responded with 'yes, but, anyway...I'd never cut off MY family!' - as if they haven't listened to a word I've said.
Janet - I learned some time ago to keep this stuff to myself for the very reason that everyone and I mean everyone minimized my experience or explained it away much to my detriment. That made it very, very difficult for me to validate my own feelings and experiences and difficult for me to accept validation from a therapist or people like those here.
Glad you found validation here. - your friend - Gaining Strength
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Iphi,
Yes!! That's her!! (How did they get a piccy of her to put on wiki, though??!
" Now put a Kylie 80's side ponytail and fedora on that smog monster."
- don't forget the satin hotpants, too.
Even though I hate what I went through, I agree that it's worse to be the Golden Child because that never ends. The idea of keeping the myth going in order to be 'safe' from the treatment she saw being meted out to me is an important one. I think, deep down, she must have SOME awareness that I've got away, and she's still trapped. She still lives a few minutes' drive from my NMum, in a boring grey town in Essex, close to where we grew up, and they see each other virtually every day (bleh!). I, on the other hand, moved 300 miles away and live in the beautiful Peak District. She's got to listen to the endless regurgitating of past bitterness, and I haven't.
What worries me is that my NSister will probably repeat the cycle with her own daughter, as she'll know no different.
Gaining Strength,
They just don't get it, do they? Or don't want to. Too painful.
I'm glad you found validation here, too. Isn't it important?
Janet
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Iphi,
Yes!! That's her!! (How did they get a piccy of her to put on wiki, though??!
" Now put a Kylie 80's side ponytail and fedora on that smog monster."
- don't forget the satin hotpants, too.
Even though I hate what I went through, I agree that it's worse to be the Golden Child because that never ends. The idea of keeping the myth going in order to be 'safe' from the treatment she saw being meted out to me is an important one. I think, deep down, she must have SOME awareness that I've got away, and she's still trapped. She still lives a few minutes' drive from my NMum, in a boring grey town in Essex, close to where we grew up, and they see each other virtually every day (bleh!). I, on the other hand, moved 300 miles away and live in the beautiful Peak District. She's got to listen to the endless regurgitating of past bitterness, and I haven't.
What worries me is that my NSister will probably repeat the cycle with her own daughter, as she'll know no different.
Gaining Strength,
They just don't get it, do they? Or don't want to. Too painful.
I'm glad you found validation here, too. Isn't it important?
Janet
you know, i was pretty much the "golden child" to my N father, up until i moved out from his house at age 19, sick of his, stepmother's and stepbrother's BS.
it's funny, because my sister sometimes indicates she is jealous that i was the "golden child", i guess because i at least had SOME sort of relationship with our father (whereas she really never did and was D&D'd from the moment she was born). she'll sniff and say "hmph. you were the "golden child", in a mocking tone, somewhat jokingly, but somewhat not, too. i never, however, behaved like your sister did, Janet, nothing like that...i wasn't an N. just confused, especially bc my father would say such horrible things about my mom, sister, brother, grandmother, and everyone, yet i still felt like i needed to be a part of that family. it felt like my loyalties were being torn in two. i'm not sure being the golden child to an N is necessarily any easier than being the ignored scapegoat. my father would tell me how my mom was a pedophile, for instance...and i felt like i should believe him, even though i'd never seen evidence of that. later, when i told my mom that, she was upset that i believed him. but what was i to do, being 17 years old, wanting desperately to be accepted and loved by my dad, and not getting along with my mom at that time at all? it never crossed my mind back then that he might fabricate such a horrid lie about my own mother. those are just some of the games that get played with the "golden child".
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Authentic,
Yep, they sure can go on and on. And they have to have the last word, too.
Janet
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Yep, they sure do!
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Ha ha!!
Yeeeeess, just like that. :?
Janet
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BAAAAAARF on her!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
sorry, this made me LMAO!!
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S+Safe,
I'd love to " BAAAAAARF on her!"....except I'd have to GET UP CLOSE to her to do it, and I don't intend EVER to get that close to her again. Not ever.
Perhaps I could post her some? :lol:
Thanks for saying it took real guts to post the email. I felt confident BEFORE I posted it, but as soon as I hit the 'send' button...well, you know how it is. But I feel so much better now, after the responses I've had. Truly great, this forum is!
I'm sorry you had a sister like that too. Yes, a real human one would've been nice.
Janet
Janet
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Janet,
I've just been catching up after not having been around a few days. Wow. Your sister is....amazingly full of herself.
Putting blame on you for her miscarriage is the pinnacle of n-ism! oh my god. I've lost 2 babies. I was never told why. Most times they can't tell you why. It just happens. I was watching Forrest Gump when I lost my 2nd baby. Something inside my mind connects Forrest Gump to something awful, but that's just feelings. I know it's not Forrest Gump's fault I lost my baby. Goodness gracious.
This is amazingly frustrating, don't you feel hopeless? Like a big mountain has been put before you? To try and surmount this? How do you even try? Some people are best left alone.
I'm so sorry, Janet. (((((((((Janet)))))))))) You are NOT to blame. You deserve hugs and love and understanding.
Much love,
Dandylife
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What they don't remember, and what we painfully remember is that every time we made an attempt - they pushed us further away. They need us to try to get close so they can keep pushing us away. It is a sick dynamic that is most characteristic of my family's dynamic.
Bean,
Oh how I can relate to this twisted sick cycle. I was caught up in that for years. Always made me try harder.......ukkkkkkkkkkkk so glad I'm out of that.
(((((((((((((Janet)))))))))))) so sorrry for all your pain
Love Tweety
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I used to yearn for a sister...
:(
Do they have any idea what precious friendship, loyalty and lifelong allies they SQUANDER when they treat their sisters this way? As adults, even??
:shock: :(
I am so grateful for good women friends and the people on this forum.
love to all of you, sisters,
Hops
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Dandylife,
Thanks for your response.
I'm really sorry you had two miscarriages. I know they can 'just happen', but they're still very difficult to come to terms with, aren't they?
The thing about my sister's miscarriage is so complicated. My NMum always told us (when we were little) not to have children as they ruin your life, etc, etc, and I internalised that, and thought *I* didn't want children, till I was in my early forties (too late now...). But, when my sister got pregnant, it was my *NMUM* who came out with all the 'what on earth did you do that for, you're mad, you're stupid'...comments as soon as she was told about the pregnacny. I just said 'That's great' kind of stuff (like normal people do, you know?) Amazingly, by the next week, history had been re-written, my NMum had had to re-invent her response, and BOTH of them now claimed it had been *ME* that had said the 'you're stupid to have got pregnant' comments.
Very strange, and so frustrating to counteract, as only the three of us had been present when the original comments had been said - and they out-numbered me!
Bean,
Oooh, *two* sisters and an NMum!! How awful! One sister like this is quite enough!
With the family therapy sessions...it wasn't even *me* that had wanted to start them.. My NMum said I should get family therapy 'to learn how to fit into the family better' as that's what she thought family therapy was. I did it because I was desperate to calm her down (we just kept having screaming matches at that time). I had 6 sessions just with the therapist, then wrote to each FOO member, asking them to come to two, two-hour sessions on consecutive nights, to discuss the issues. They each 'agreed' to come, grudgingly.
But at the end of the second group session, it was so clear that 'healing' wasn't going to take place, that the therapist, a bit out of his depth, I think, said to me 'What on earth are you going to DO?'
I told him (in front of them) that I wasn't going to put myself through all this any more, and that I was going to stop seeing them from now on - so that was a very public way of starting NC.
So, even though I *hadn't * known about my sister's threatened miscarriage, etc, I HAD STARTED NC BY THEN!!! I DIDN'T WANT TO KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING!! WHY SHOULD I STILL HAVE TO BE IN TOUCH WITH THEM??
This is the bit my sister had the most trouble with, I think. She never respected my boundaries, so she thought *I* should still be interested in *her*, even though I'd made it quite clear I wasn't.
I tend to call my sister 'Joan's daughter' now, because she's like a clone of my NMum. Also, 'Joan's daughter', as a term of relationship, doesn't have to include me any more, because I don't see my NMum as my mother - that's why I referred to her as 'Joan' not 'my mum' in my letter to Alf. She's just a person, separate from me, not my mother.
Tweety,
The pulling/pushing drives you crazy, doesn't it? When you stop bothering to try to get their attention, it knocks them completely off-balance :twisted: Not that they were ever 'on-balance', but you know what I mean.
Hops,
Yes, I'd like to have a sister
Janet
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Bean,
I think the family therapist was incredibly out of his depth - he was used to dealing with *children* in families that were having problems, like divorcing parents, school refusing, that kind of thing. Not that I'm saying those aren't problems too, but to have five *adults* in his room, with all the baggage that we brought with us, was just too much for him, really. I don't think he knew about N then (1994). It's only been recognised about that long, anyway.
"I imagine they have long chats about how I'm not around and "its so wrong"
I KNOW that my family do this, because my Dad (who I still see, and has been targetted over the years by them almost as much as I have) tells me - I wish he wouldn't, but he still does. He doesn't get Nism at all. They must have such empty lives, to still be doing this 13 years after I started NC.
My husband says one simple way to 'encourage me back in' would have been simply to....be nice! But that's beyond them. They think, if they keep telling you how AWFUL you are, you'll see the light, and apologise. How strange! :shock:
I've had the 'if you were a 'true sister' stuff, too. What on earth is a 'true sister'?
I've got better 'true sisters' on this forum, actually!!
It HAS been more painful than I thought it would be, but it's been so helpful to have validation from sensible, adult women who know what I'm talking about....at last!
I think I'll be able to lay it to rest now (after I've had the ceremonial burning, of course)
Janet
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Janet,
I just wanted you to know that I wish I could give you input on this sorta sister thing, but I have no sisters or brothers.
I have to agree with you though "true sister" wouldn't be anything remotely resembling there behavior.
Love Tweety
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Hi Janet,
It is so hard when they gang up - they just reinforce each other ad nauseaum until you feel like you are beating your head against a wall. It is impossible. For me it was my mother, father, and brother. With all 3 of them letting me know by every action and word that I was less than nothing, on some level (although I fought it constantly - which most likely got me the "D" label), I believed them. While I recognize their pattern of behavior for what it was, I am finding it very hard to get rid of that old belief.
(I was sent to T by my parents because I was so "D" to live with - went to 2, both Ts told me to get out of that house and not look back - I was pretty young :shock: - wish I'd listened sooner.)
I am sorry that posting the letter was hard, thank you for posting - it helps to know (although I wouldn't wish this on anyone) that I am not alone. (((((Janet)))))
Now, how about a party to burn that letter - I'll bring the fire.....
(http://img1.jurko.net/1.gif)
Peace
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Tweety,
Thanks for the input anyway, Tweety. In a normal family, I suppose having sisters, brothers, or being an 'only child' is irrelevant if you're loved for what you are.
I think what I've got is an 'untrue sister'.
Janet
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Peace,
Yes, I wouldn't wish this on anyone either, but if discussing the issue helps anyone else, 'then it's all been worthwhile', as they say!
It's helped me no end.
Thanks for the fire. I'll bring the matches and the petrol.
And the baking potatoes.
Janet
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S+Safe,
That's quite an eye-opener for me. I suppose we don't talk much about N sisters. But it's the N sisters that are likely to grow up to be the next 'batch' of N mothers. So perhaps we should talk about them more (if we can face it).
What was your nazi-sister like? (love the description :twisted: )
Janet
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What did the therapist say when you all went for counselling together? Whose side was he on? Why didnt' it work?
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Bean,
The description of your therapy sessions sounds horrendous (but quite similar to mine). It must have been really traumatic for you. What a dreadful family to have to put up with! NC is essential when there's a family like ours, isn't it?
I think your therapist was completely out of order to have *ever* allowed your parents to have visited him , behind your back. After all, YOU were paying him to see YOU. At the very least, he should have asked your opinion before seeing them separately from you. No wonder you lost trust in him!
When I had family therapy, I did feel this man was a bit, well, 'new' to family therapy, and a bit out of his depth. I showed him letters my NMum and NSister had written to me, and he read them while I watched him, and he was stunned. He kept saying 'did this incident really happen?' , and I'd have to tell him how they twisted things to make me look evil (that was one of my NMum's favourite descriptions of me 'wicked and evil'.
Anyway, when we had the two group sessions, the therapist video'd them, without giving the rest of them the option of it happening (I knew he was going to do it). My NMUm and Nsister were very uncomfortable with that. The therapist started the session by getting eaach person to 'introduce themselves' to him, and say how they felt the family was now, how it used to be, and what they saw as ' the problem'. They all said *I* was the problem, except for my Dad (who I still see), who said 'the argument between Joan and Janet is the problem, because it's not getting sorted out' (he's always said it's 'AN argument', as if it's just one incident, although reallly that was just the last straw - there's bound to be a 'final' argument, isn't there?
I'd already discussed with the therapist in the sessions I had had with him alone, that I would have to introduce the 'painful' subjects for discussion myself, so it didn't look as if I'd been 'telling tales' to the therapist first - it had to look 'natural'. It was really hard to start talking about my anorexia, my dad's alcoholism, and my mum's affairs, in front of everyone, as we'd NEVER talked about these important things before, EVER. I'd had anorexia for 12 years, and been over it for 7 years, and yet no-one in my family had ever said the word 'anorexia' before. :shock: The therapist was very even-handed, although I think that, privately, he was 'on my side' but in a professional sense. I was paying him, so his 'loyalty' was to me, to try to get *my* mental health to be better.
At the end of the frst session, we all left, and each made a dash for our cars, not wanting to talk in the car park (very uncomfortable).
On the next evening, when we got there for the second session, we had to wait for 20 minutes in the waiting room, as the therapist was running late. I do think this was really bad planning on his part. As you said, Bean, the N's use this time to get the knife in. I was waiting for my Dad to arrive, and asked where he might be. My NMum then calmly said 'he's not coming. He doesn't think it's worth it' (meaning YOU'RE not worth it). It turned out later, that, after the first sesion, my mum and dad had gone home and had the most blazing row ever about her affairs, as they'd never discussed that before. This instigated their divorce a year later. I was blamed for this. My dad now has a lovely 'ladyfriend', though, so I think it was worthwhile, on the whole.
So, we started the second session with a very bad feeling in the air. My dad had supported me quite a lot in the first session, and I did feel 'on my own'. The other three (I have a brother, too, who was there, but I realise I hardly ever mention him!) all sat together, and I sat apart from them.
We covered what might happen in the future, and how the family dynamic might be altered by structuring the 'Sunday visits' to my Mum's house differently (she expected us always to visit her, all the adult children, plus partners, every week without fail, which was a huge area of contention between us).
It got very heated, and my Mum and sister started shouting at me. On the video, I just look terrified, and very small. I'd really 'retreated' to protect myself. When the therapist said 'what are you going to do?' It just made me say what I'd thought for ages - 'I've had enough, and I'm not going to put myself through this any more. That's it, finished.' We wrapped up the session, and I walked out in tears.
He posted me the videos a few days later, with a letter saying they were MINE, and it was up to me whether I allowed the others to ever see it - possibly if they were willing to discuss things later, he thought the videos might be useful (DISCUSS? With an N?? I did say he didn't understand).
My dad asked to see the second video, as he hadn't been there, and I let him see that one, although I warned him that we did continue discussing the alcoholism and the affairs, so he might find it painful, which he did.
The sessions cost me about £350 altogether, for 6 sessions on my own, and 2 group sessions, which I thought at the time was a lot for ME to have to pay.
Now, I think it was a bargain, as it made me realise I had to go NC (that was 13 years ago).
Does that answer your question, Isobel, or have I waffled?
Janet
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hearing about these therapy sessions-- Janet's and Bean's--- just shows me HOW resistant the N family is to change. IOW-- how HOPELESS it is.
Thank you Janet and Bean for sharing this.
Love Ami
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Ami,
The *situation* was very definitely hopeless, but it did do me some good in that it made it clear as day that they weren't going to change. I think it would have taken me a lot longer, otherwise, to have worked out what I needed to do (this was 13 years ago, and there was no internet then).
Janet
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(((((((((((((((((((((((Janet))))))))))))))))))))))))))
How very, very brave you were, to make it all happen.
I am glad you got this chance to have the truth exposed to light and air.
Sending you love,
Hops
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CB,
Thanks for that. I think you must be a very special mother to be able to resolve things with an adult child and not feel 'attacked'.
Hops,
I certainly didn't *feel* brave - I seemed to spend years in tears. I couldn't have done it without my husband's support. He believed me from the word go, and could always put the 'normal person's perspective' on any N conversation that I'd experienced. Even though he had a tough upbringing himself (his mother suddenly walked out one day when he was 8, and he didn't see her again till he was 29).
Janet