Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gratitude28 on August 12, 2007, 07:47:24 PM
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If any of my family members says this to me one more time, I will scream...
I know you don't like winter, but we do... it is so nice... (They have no idea what I like or don't like. They never ask or listen to me. They remember comments I made when I was 14 and think I believe that still).
I know you don't like living in America, but we like having you here... ( I am loving being here... except for being near them...).
I know you don't like movies, but this one is very good... (I like certain movies, but I don't watch a lot of movies or TV).
I know you probably don't care, but your cousin graduated from college... (If it is someone I know, that is nice).
This is a way of making me sound like a cruel bitch all the time. My sister and parents pepper their conversations with me with this phrase. AND THEY DON'T KNOW ME AT ALL...
Thanks for being here guys... got your own Nism to share?????
Love, Beth
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You know Beth my father was doing that to me this summer while he was hospitalized. It was so irritating. I didn't know where he was getting the ideas he was attributing to me nor why he was doing it. Of all the millions of weird things he has done that is not one of them - it was completely new and I did not like it - one iota.
I get it and am sorry you are experiencing that. - your friend - Gaining Strength
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Dear Beth and GS...
What is up with that?
It does feel so patronizing... condescending...
and also, almost, like they're trying to prove that they know you're so different from them (I always felt like the oddball in these situations) but offering you another chance to enter into their world? Gee, thanks.
So odd...
my dad used to always say, "you don't know what you're missing"... as though the only "good" things in the world were those he enjoyed.
And my mother, when recounting one of her many adventurous :P tales, will preface it with "You may not remember..."
which I always translated as - "I know this story is of absolutely no interest to you, but I'm gonna tell it anyway."
I have a feeling there's alot more to this, but just can't put my finger on it.
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I think that the "more to it" as Hope says is that they are doing what Janet's sister is trying to do.Beth was probably the one who tried to tell the "truth". So, she has to be marginalized . She has to be put in the "them " box (with the us versus them mentality).
I think that this is simply a way to make her be an outsider to the "group. That way when she tells the "truth"-- she will not be listened to by them( or anyone else) Just a thought . Love Ami
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Sounds frustrating G.
I know i don't feel heard and i've been working really really hard on communicating so that people don't just ignore me and go right no with what they were doing before: /
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OMG - I ALWAYS get the "You may not remember" and the "You don't know what you're missing."
I think you are so right - it's a way to keep me separate.
Great insight as always...
Any more you can think of? It really helps me to understand the control they try to exert when I can catch these things. Another one I realized is the "We are just kidding." After they say something cruel or are picking on me they use this one.
Love, Beth
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My Dear Lighter,with your wicked turn of phrase, anyone who doesn't notice what you say is a fool!
Gratitude 28! Hello! I am just getting to know you, but I know your family!!!!They are practicing GROUPTHINK, where everyone is coerced into professed thought conformity (whether or not all members of the group truly agree). This tragic practice is dangerous, leads to very bad decisions amd outcomes, and demoralizes the individuals in the group.
It may seem easier to just go along but don't do it, and don't let them play mind games by telling you "what you like"- they are trying to get you to say that you agree with them, etc., then it's on to the next step. You have the upper hand if you tell the truth. Please keep posting!
Best wishes,
Changing
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Ami, you got it in one. It's a very subtle, very insidious form of enemy creation. The underlying message is "you're not one of us, you don't like what we like or value what we value; you are not truly welcome among us; and we are going to assure this by creating a fake personality for you, that we can take pot shots at."
The thing is, this kind of behavior is just insane. Read that description. Sane people don't do this kind of stuff. But... people in groups... from little bitty dyads to entire countries... do this kind of stuff. All. The. Time. Kindergarteners do it, Prime Ministers do it.
Beth, I wish I had a magic wand for you on this one. All I can say is that seeing this stuff clearly will take you through the stages of grieving... there may be a point where you just can't stand seeing them pull this stuff, and then there may be a point where you just can't stand seeing them, period, and then later on there may be a point where you have the kind of reaction Write describes on the "Aha" thread... where basically you see it, label it accurately, are detached from it, and can decide if seeing them is worth the effort it costs you, on a case by case basis.
But you will never be able to fix it or get through to them. It's a 'gang' thing. Gangs need enemies, they need that adrenaline-boosting group reinforcement. If they can't find enemies legitimately, they will manufacture them. It will fix itself if and when they value relating to you more than they value being a gang.
PS: Letting them know you see through the shenanigans may be satisfying, and it may be a necessary step in separating from them psychologically, but don't expect it to 'get through' to them quickly, if at all. When a gang-group's identity is threatened it just intensifies the group's determination to exclude the threat, in the short term anyway.
PSS: Hi lighter. I hear you ;-). Ignoring is just a tactic... like all tactics, when properly understood it normally tells you more about the ignorer than the ignored. Doesn't make it nice to put up with... but understanding definitely helps.
PSSS: Changing, yes, it is groupthink, Gang style!
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Dear Beth,
Reading Janet's e mail from her sister really showed me this quality.Beth, I think that Storm really showed the evolution of the steps to healing from an N ( or N family system).
The hardest one is to face the truth. You can't "believe" that it is THIS evil. You are in shock.These 'familiar " people are turning in to monsters,right before your eyes. You want to go back in to denial ,but you can't. Then ,you think( my interpretation,of course) that this could be in a book like "People of the Lie". You are shocked to realize that YOUR family could make it in to a book like this.
Then, you realize that you REALLY were abused. You had inklings of it,but you chose to deny it.
Then , you face that there will be nothing from them but further destruction of your already battered self.
Then( this is where I am)you pray to God that you can love and nurture yourself b/c you are ALL that you have.I have personalized your story and it may not be yours at all . Dismiss what is not right for you. Love Ami
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My H always says to me-You do not understand this but I do blah blah blah..Then I want to tell him HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT I DO AND DO NOT UNDERSTAND! My mom often refers to my "break from reality." I call it the point when I became aware of reality!
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OMG - I ALWAYS get the "You may not remember" and the "You don't know what you're missing."
I think you are so right - it's a way to keep me separate.
Great insight as always...
Any more you can think of? It really helps me to understand the control they try to exert when I can catch these things. Another one I realized is the "We are just kidding." After they say something cruel or are picking on me they use this one.
Love, Beth
Dear Beth,
With my own parents, it seems more like they simply don't realize that I grew up.... and I really feel like... well, of course they don't realize... I never distinguished myself from them in my own mind until much later in life... most notably, when I quit drinking over 2 years ago.
I've encountered similar situations with my own kids, as they've entered teenager-hood :shock: ... where I've made a statement to them about something I'd considered a fact about their likes or dislikes and I've received their very firm correction. "Yes, actually, I DO like mustard on my burger."
Ohhhkay... lesson received, but the lesson has nothing to do with mustard. The lesson is - "Do not presume that anything which you think you know about me is true because it is your job, Mom, to recognize that I am in a constant state of flux and my likes/dislikes are subject to change without prior notice." :) I get it!
My parents don't get it. :( I don't think they want to get it :(
But I get it :) You get it :) And you know, tis better to individuate later in life than never to individuate at all. :)
That's three smiles against two frowns.
Guess who wins.
Love,
Hope
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Gratitude28 and Ami-
This dynamic is so simple yet profound, but its very nature keeps it hidden "right before our very eyes". When Gratitude explained her problem, and Ami showed how we are all vulnerable to falling prey to it, in our innocence as children, and then the difficulty in seeing the real pattern and extricating ourselves as adults due to the intense socialization that we have endured, a mild form of the conflict almost seems like a normal part of becoming an adult individual, except some pathological groups try to prevent normal growth and change in their children( like the poor children purposely misshapen by keeping them in pots as they grew, to be used as circus freaks as portrayed in Victor Hugo's "1793"). Thankfully, we can free ourselves and make our spirits whole again, despite having families who did not take proper care and tried to warp us for their own purposes. That is why we are learning and helping each other here.
Hugs,
Changing
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(((((((((((((((CH, Lighter, Storm, Ami, Changing, Kell, GS))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Thank you so much. It is harder right now as I am having more contact with them. I want my kids to see for themselves how my parents are - I don't want to put any ideas in their heads. So we are having this "vacation" with them this week. They have already cut it down to three days (I should be thankful and am, but I also know it's because they don't like me). They are coming for three days during the week and then leaving early on Sat to go ont heir vacation with their friends. My son is so disappointed. He thought they were coming to spend a week with him. Like I said, I am staying out of it - I don't want to be responsible for clouding the kids' judgment.
((((((((((((((((((Thanks, guys))))))))))))))))))))))) I am so grateful you are here.
Love, Beth
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My Dear G28-
You are not clouding the kids' judgement- you are not being cruel, you are letting them see the truth for themselves. This is an honorable and healthy thing for a mother to do. You do not, should not pass down the lies and family mythology. It's like mother animals training their young for life- the young are given the opportunity to see what is good, what is harmful, etc., the nature of their habitat and other creatures, while the mother remains watching over them , just in case. That way, they are prepared to live well and protect themselves. Go for it, Mama Leopard!!!
Love Changing
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Dear Beth,
I agree with Changing. Kids usually sense the truth ,anyway. It is very,very confusing if you try to "distort" the truth. I raised good kids b/c I was always honest( age appropriate).
I knew from being lied to all the time, that I always knew the truth, down deep.. I just got very confused and lost my faith in myself.
I think that you are getting wiser than ever, Beth Love Ami
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I want my kids to see for themselves how my parents are - I don't want to put any ideas in their heads. So we are having this "vacation" with them this week. They have already cut it down to three days (I should be thankful and am, but I also know it's because they don't like me). They are coming for three days during the week and then leaving early on Sat to go ont heir vacation with their friends. My son is so disappointed. He thought they were coming to spend a week with him. Like I said, I am staying out of it - I don't want to be responsible for clouding the kids' judgment.
Dear Beth,
My children have seen my parents' ways and weaknesses for themselves, through circumstances much like you've described.
My parents would come 1,000 miles, supposedly to visit us here, and then spend an hour or 2 daily (maybe) at our home before taking off to go do their own thing (always revolving around drinking.)
At the end of their last visit (I think it was) my mother would not even get out of the car to come up to the door and say goodbye, because - she said - it had rained earlier (wasn't raining at the moment) and she didn't want to risk getting ill just for that...
No one here made a move to go to her.
Children raised like you and I have raised ours... they see... and they know.
And when we were at their home last month, my parents really had no clue how to relate to any of us... to me or to my kids... because their grip on us is gone. For me, it was my break with alcohol (which is a major part of their lives) that really impacted them in such a way that they couldn't recoup. Anyhow, fortunately, my husband was there to buffer what would otherwise have been a much more intense silence.
I'm so sorry your son is disappointed... that hurts. I don't know how old he is, but mine's 11 and he got a good taste of this when we were visiting his grandparents. I suggested he show grandma something he was working on and asked him a bit later what she'd thought of it...
he said, "It's hard to tell."
Oh yeah, he gets it... because she can't give it, take it, fix it, change it, relate one of her own grand experiences to it, or effect it in any way, she could not care less.
(((((((Beth))))))) They don't "like" anyone, really... they just know how to blend in with some better than others.
You are free, you just don't feel it yet.
Love,
Hope
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Oh, Beth.
If you're hurt and disappointed by what your parents do, it can't harm your son if you just say,
"I feel hurt and disappointed that my parents don't spend more time with me."
That's it. If he says "Why?" You can say, "I guess they don't know how to be happy."
Plus, I always think more often that not, when someone says, "I know you...."
It means, "I don't know you."
I'm sorry...
This is a really big continent and I hope you won't give them more than an inch of space in your life.
love
Hops
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Gratitude,
This 'sidelining' of one particular family member is SO predictable, isn't it? I got the 'you don't like this but...' all the time.
Another one I got, which is a similar kind of thing, more to do with saying 'you don't count as important with me' is this:
My NMum would start telling me something (usually pretty boring, anyway), then stop, and say 'Have I told you this already?'
It's like, you're so unimportant to me I can't be bothered to remember our conversations.
Thanks, Mum. :shock:
Janet
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'I can read you like a book' ..is my Nmum's very favourite as she gets it wrong again
Spy x
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yes, i agree with ami here...it's a way to marginalize you. it also sounds like they're projecting, as well.
ugh!! :(
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I also used to get 'I know you better than you know yourself'.
Hmm.
Probably helped by the fact that she used to read my diaries when I was out at school. :shock:
Janet
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You all are awesome and I agree with all that you say here. It breaks my heart to know this will no doubt be the time my son will see that things are not quite right - he is so looking forward to them coming. But I will do as you said and just tell him it is disappointing, but that is the way they are and all people are different.
I have let them into my life too much lately, as you have noticed. I was thinking last night that I need to make a "diagram" of my life. The central circle will be my happy bubble... my kids, my Henry, my dear friends (the trustworthy only), my husband, guinea pigs, snakes, languages, knitting... that will make up the central part of my life. Then, as one of you suggested on another thread, I will keep the less important things in smaller bubbles off to the side - a work bubble, a parent bubble... compartmentalize them and not let them in to what is me... This may sound odd, but I like the idea of having a barrier and didn't quite get the concept before.
OK, I need to go in another room... Henry is passing gas and scaring me away from this one...
Lots of love,
Beth
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Hey Janet.. Me too. My Nmum used to say that too and read my diaries and then have hysterical tantrums over what she read in there. i can remeber when I was twenty and thinking of taking the contraceptive pill.. She read it and then became hysterical... ripping and ripping it in my face... I had to stay in my room for a week as I was too scared to go near the rest of the family... Aftyer a week she came into the room and laid a newspaper cutting on the bed of two children sillhouetted hand in hand. It was about under age sex..
Spyralle x
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Beth,
I don't like to ask this, but...WHO IS HENRY???? :shock:
Janet
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Spyralle,
Isn't it strange that they could go mad at you, after reading something in your diary, but if you said 'you shouldn't have read that anyway', they'd go off at you for questioning their RIGHT to 'find things out if you won't tell me yourself' kind of stuff. Used to drive me mad...
Janet
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Me too Janet.. My mother believes I am a part of her therefore she has every right to own every bit of me including my thoughts and actions.. One of my favourites is when I am going for a new job and she says.. tell them your mother was a headteacher... Like anything I have to say is so totally unimportant but if they hear about her they will immediately employ me..
Spy x
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Spy,
I once said to my NMum about that 'you are part of me' stuff...'I thought they CUT the umbilical cord at birth, though?'
Her only response?
'Don't be disgusting.'
:shock:
Says more about her than me, that one.
Janet
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Lol LOL LOL..... Lets get the virtual scissors on the job!!!!!!
Spy x
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I was thinking last night that I need to make a "diagram" of my life. The central circle will be my happy bubble... my kids, my Henry, my dear friends (the trustworthy only), my husband, guinea pigs, snakes, languages, knitting... that will make up the central part of my life. Then, as one of you suggested on another thread, I will keep the less important things in smaller bubbles off to the side - a work bubble, a parent bubble... compartmentalize them and not let them in to what is me... This may sound odd, but I like the idea of having a barrier and didn't quite get the concept before.
Dear Beth,
There's something very comforting about that image of bubbles... I like it, too :)
I remember reading something to that effect awhile back, re: family models and how some folks compartmentalize themselves... I didn't get it then either, but from what you've described, I can sure see the benefits!
Love,
Hope
P.S. Sounds like Henry needs some doggy-Beano!
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I have let them into my life too much lately, as you have noticed. I was thinking last night that I need to make a "diagram" of my life. The central circle will be my happy bubble... my kids, my Henry, my dear friends (the trustworthy only), my husband, guinea pigs, snakes, languages, knitting... that will make up the central part of my life. Then, as one of you suggested on another thread, I will keep the less important things in smaller bubbles off to the side - a work bubble, a parent bubble... compartmentalize them and not let them in to what is me... This may sound odd, but I like the idea of having a barrier and didn't quite get the concept before.
:o
hi Beth
My diagram is like a wagon wheel. I am the hub (in your case, your whole household) and everyone/thing else has a spoke--the only problem is that the rim is missing and there is no way everyone can connect with another spoke is through me. i.e my family is all one spoke, but my boss is on another and they have never met. The N on another etc.
I don't know if you can picture that but it came to me when I moved around so much
Izzy
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Spy,
I laughed so hard about "tell them I was a headmistress." I can TOTALLY see that. My parents say things like that all the time.
Henry is my ugly bulldog and yes, he needs Beano. A lot of it.
Jac, your sister sounds like a piece of work. I am sure she is a wonderful mother to those children she keeps generating.
Izzy... the spokes make sense too.
(((((((((((((((((((everyone))))))))))))))))))))
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Beth, pleeeeease post the photo of Henry again for Janet!
(Meaning, me.) :D
hi Henry yousa gooood boy, earscratch, tummyrub, oooo, and what fine methane you produce...
aag.
Hops
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Beth, pleeeeease post the photo of Henry again for Janet!
(Meaning, me.) :D
hi Henry yousa gooood boy, earscratch, tummyrub, oooo, and what fine methane you produce...
aag.
Hops
Ohh, me too, please, Beth? I remember past discussions of Henry but musta been awol the first time his photo came around... oh, I wanna see, tooooo! :)
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There's a photo? Lemme see the photo!