Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dawning on April 29, 2004, 02:36:47 AM
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Has anyone stood up to an N - in this case a mother N ?
I feel somewhere in between ignoring her manipulative behaviour completely/sending her a quick reply to today's email telling her there is nothing wrong with me and I won't have her continue to tell me so OR spilling my guts to her once and for all by sending the long letter I finished writing last week (with the stamp of approval/support from my cousin.)
The danger in doing this is that she will take any response and run with it, using it as a way to get back inside my head. She'll be thrilled with any response. She is angry now cos I have pulled back and not giving her that source of supply and her latest email reflects her need to try and get me to doubt myself again and/or think there is something wrong with me. She's been doing this my whole life. I see NOW that she is very predictable, only now I am controlling my emotions and taking care of myself and certainly not trying to fix her anymore. Still, there is the voice. The voice that is welling up and wants to come out. I am tired of her always, always -since birth - trying to fix me. :twisted:
Any experiences, stories, observations, stuff?
:)
Dawning
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I've been lookin' for a couple of stories to bring up for you Dawning. Not that they'll probably relate exactly, but hey, :D :D They're on the 'healing' thread so I'll go there now and dredge one up and post it at the top of that thread. Might get my thought juices goin' on your request.
Be back to chat later.
CG
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Thanks, CG. :)
When I say that I am tired of her trying to fix me, it is always when she doesn't get her way. When she is getting her supply, she heaps praise upon me. But she will change just as fast if I don't do what she wants *when* she wants it and then something *becomes wrong with me.* So how I am *not* supposed to think she is full of sH*t :?: :!:
She sent a string of terrible emails last month when I mentioned to her a personal, intimate event that made me happy. I wanted to share my happiness with her and, instead, she throws all this rage at me! :x
So I pulled back. I remained cool in my responses and didn't get upset even though I had a right to. I got down on energy for several weeks and set about writing a letter to her - edited at least 10 times. I still have the letter and my cousin thinks I should send it. It is not a letter written in hopes of fixing her. I have given up on that.
Yesterday, I got an email from her asking for my ssn. I told her that it was dangerous to send an ssn by regular email and that I would send it by snail mail early next week as today starts a week long series of national holidays here and the post offices are closed. Her response today: "I'll need it asap. Thanks. It's much easier on the heart, (Dawning), to be happy. Give yourself a break!" Please trust me, this is an insidious way of hers to get her way even about something like not getting my ssn when she wants it. Never mind the danger involved (I have heard of people putting their ssn in an email that gets hacked and then someone else has access to your bank records, etc.) But this is a minor case. Several years ago, when I dared to offer my opinion on what my dying grandfather needed, she raged at me. I told her that I thought we needed a little time apart - an hour or so - to cool down and later, that evening, when I went back to her house in a rental car, she took the car keys off the key ring and locked me in the house, took me to the living room where she had lined up a set of glasses and gave me one and told me to throw it at the wall. When I wouldn't do this, she proceeded to tell me all the ways I was deficient as a person. When dawn broke and I went into the room to go to bed, she insisted that I hug her, telling me that she loved me. The next morning, she had a beautiful breakfast prepared and wanted me to talk. I said that I didn't have anything to say (protecting myself here) She, then said, "well then you can help me paint the doors." I did that and then everything was better. I took her out for dinner later (and drinks for me) and that made things even better. But, as you can imagine, I fully realized her disorder very clearly that year. I came back and discussed it with my therapist.
~Dawning.
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Still, there is the voice. The voice that is welling up and wants to come out. I am tired of her always, always -since birth - trying to fix me. :twisted:
:)
Dawning
Hi Dawning,
What qualifies her, or whose authority does she have to pass comment on you in the first place anyway.
Tell her to 'feck off'. Tell her "I got a warmer glow the last time I passed water, than I've ever had from anything you've ever said to me."
I mean, get mad at anyone who wants to hang their shit on your shirt. This applies ESPECIALLY, REPEAT, ESPECIALLY for mothers. :x :x :x :x
Or how about you say , " Hey ma, (yes, you simply positively MUST use the term 'ma'. They hate it. :D ) I've think you've mistaken for someone who gives a shit about your opinions."
And trying to fix what anyway????? let's see (hahahahaha)
fix you, :? or f##k you up?? (line outa a movie I love, "Your're job is to fix me, not to f##k me up!!!")
Or is she trying to
CHANGE you, or
CONTROL you, or
CONTROL & CHANGE you?
Or if she can achieve a real win, she'll convince you that something's wrong with you so get suspicious of yourself, even maybe mistrust yourself and every bloody decision you've ever made, or maybe even get you to hate yourself?? Get you so you feel sick every time you look in the mirror? Don't know, just askin'?
My mother had me like that at different times. Bloody lovely isn't it. And there wasn't anything wrong with me, that losing her didn't fix. I treated her in the end, the same way you'd treat a bloke at work who repeatedly tells racist or sexist jokes.
Step 1. Made her aware that what she was doing was unacceptable and offensive and I wouldn't tolerate it any more.
Step 2. Told her she had to stop, which she plain just couldn't. Too old and stubborn and narcissistic and evil.
Step 3. Warned her if she continued I'd cut off communication for good. When she couldn't I followed through. End of story. Sounds heartless, but I wasn't the heartless one, she was.
By the way, :D
Do you feel you need fixing?
Do you want to change?
You sound okay to me :D
CG
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HI Dawning, I'm playin' catch-up here, but I gotta say, (please no offence intended), but your mother makes me feel sick. I read your post and felt sick to the pit of my stomach. There was a familiarity in your story that hit me hard, which my brain will get it's hands around later. But I can see, yeah, she's got to make you out to be the sick problem one, hasn't she?
CG
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No offense taken, CG. :)
I just realized that "fix her" really means "help her see the light" to my heart/mind. See the light meaning to have the ability to do all the things that people fitting the NPD description apparently simply cannot do - simple as that.
This just came into my thoughts: I want from her what I can't have from her. I must have realized that in childhood and coped by telling myself that I shouldn't want anything and so, yes, I have deprived myself in certain areas that were important to me...and now I want to want a more meaningful life and I am wondering if part of that change may involve standing up to her.
What qualifies her, or whose authority does she have to pass comment on you in the first place anyway.
It is that entitlement thing that N's have, isn't it?
Do you feel you need fixing?
Do you want to change?
Sure, there are things that I would like to change and fix about myself. I'm not perfect. But those are my responsibilities. "Ma" projects on me. She has major issues with taking responsibilty for HER actions. Lucky her, she has a daughter she can blame (being sarcastic here) whenever she feels entitled to.
Here is a snippet of the letter I have written, "if I have to break down in order to get love and attention, then I would have to wonder what type of person I was dealing with."
Thanks for asking those questions above. :) And for sharing how you have dealt with your *ma.* Right now - as an emergency measure- I am surrounding myself with "white light" (read: Judith Orwell`s Positive Energy.)
And, "achieving a real win" really struck a chord. Thanks, CG. Thanks so much for posting. (I think you wrote that to me once too and I thought it was a lovely thing to write so can I borrow it? :?: :D
And, lastly, what might be better served on another thread - this thing they have with entitlement really makes me angry. :x
~still Dawning.
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Hi Dawning,
She sent a string of terrible emails last month when I mentioned to her a personal, intimate event that made me happy. I wanted to share my happiness with her and, instead, she throws all this rage at me!
This is so sadly typical of N behavior. Rojo had a good thread in which she was working out what to say to her mother, and she included some of the back-and-forth exchanges. I’ll see if I can hunt it down.
When I wouldn't do this, she proceeded to tell me all the ways I was deficient as a person. When dawn broke and I went into the room to go to bed, she insisted that I hug her, telling me that she loved me.
Blech. Yep, my dad, too. I can’t count the number of times he’s had a big blow out (the highlight of which being the shredding of me) and then I’ve had to hold him at the end (weeping) to reassure him that everything’s okay. And, um, he's a big guy. :roll:
In the meantime? Be a swan here and everywhere – just not with her because it sounds like she’s likely to pull off your feathers.
Hang in there,
Wildflower
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Here it is. It's called, "Help - Attention Campaign":
http://voicelessness.com/disc3/viewtopic.php?t=407
Wildflower
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"if I have to break down in order to get love and attention, then I would have to wonder what type of person I was dealing with."
BLECHHHHHHHHH. Okay, yeah. My advice? Show her you're the kind of person who doesn't put up with emotional blackmail, childish tantrums from adults, and who takes responsibility for her own growth, thankyouverymuch.
Wildflower
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And there wasn't anything wrong with me, that losing her didn't fix.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
That's a good one. :D :D :D
Wildflower
P.S. - I'll try to get my replies in ONE post next time :roll: :D
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Hi Dawning,
It must be tiring to deal with your mom. Frustrating to care about a person in a very real way and to have a twisted version come back at you. There's no doubt that your mom is hurting you, that she doesn't play fair. From what you say, that is simply the way she is. The way she chooses to be.
What I wonder is how much can we, those of us who deal with Ns in our lives, influence our own outcome. For example, if you change the way you see your mother, you see her the way a stranger would. No emotional ties. Just as another human person. Would the outcome change for you? You mention that she acts in a horrible way, and then sometime later you do some action to make things better. A stranger wouldn't do the action to make things better. They'd take the situation for what it was. If they met a rude, selfish and careless person, they would distance themselves. No trying to fix. No making better. No getting involved. They wouldn't be terribly hurt or angry. It would be one more interaction with a rude person.
I don't know if this is good or bad advice. It's simply a thought process for me. A different way of looking at things.
You acknowledge that you no longer see the value in trying to help her see the light. Yet, you seem to have an emotional reaction when dealing with her.
Ns are odd people. The way that they see the world is different from the way others see it. They don't respect the kind, make it better action. They may like it, but they don't respect it.
I delt with an N father-in-law at one time. (He is no longer living at this time). At first, I responded to him with kindness, concern, caring. It became obvious that he used everyone around him. "Worked" his family to get what he wanted. After a decade of observing this, I finally gave up. Did not care at all what he thought about me. What the rest of the family thought about me. I wasn't mean or cruel or thoughtless. I treated him as a stranger. If he was rude, I ignored him. If he interrupted I continued talking. It didn't matter the situation, I did not treat him in any special way regardless of the situation. The rest of the family was apalled. They could't believe my actions.
As this man, my N father in law grew older, he came to respect me. He eventually learned that he couldn't work me the way he could everyone else in the family. And he didn't try any more. Around me he was far more normal.
Okay. Long story, small point. What if you could not care about how your mom felt? what if you didn't take responsibility for her feelings?
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Love to all here, including Guest Today (GT?). GT said:
What if you could not care about how your mom felt?
Wouldn’t that be wonderful? I keep trying and I think it is getting easier. And how about: wouldn’t it be great if I could stop myself always looking for that spark of unconditional love from her?
I hated myself for a moment yesterday when I got an email from her. We’d had no contact for 3 weeks so, wondering ‘is she alive?’, I sent a one-liner asking a question. And I got an email back, as usual, totally ignoring my question. It goes along these lines: ‘Hi darling, I’ve done this, been there, with x, he’s fantastic, I’m great, everything is wonderful, talk to you soon…..’. Yep, she’s alive, very much so, away in the sun, visited a town near me (ouch ouch ouch, but not close enough to stop off and visit me??) and – basically couldn’t give a damn. Ouch ouch: where’s that tiny bit of recognition of my existence, let alone the (ha ha) mother-daughter bond? Not there. Never was, never will be.
And although I know what she is, what she’s like, I still feel that ‘ping’ every time I see that lack of love confirmed. Damn it! Why couldn’t she have been much crueller to me so that I could kick her out of my head? I don’t mean that, oh no, I’ve heard enough real horror stories here to wish for that, but you get my drift.
So, yesterday I didn’t feel it for long (which is good! It used to last for days). I looked at my reaction and thought ‘you sap! She’s never going to love you so give it up, deal with it, it’s in your head you silly girl. Go and get love from those who know what it is, stop beating yourself up over getting blood from a stone’. And it worked. Five minutes of ache – I can cope with that. But I’d like to get rid of it completely. I haven’t replied to her email – I don’t know what to say other than ‘that’s nice dear’. Ha ha ha!
Dawning: what can I add? How about:
Please don’t send the letter! Please know that you’ve written it for yourself, not for her. Put it here if you want to (I’d love to read it), but as you say, don’t give her fuel.
“Mother, I realise you think there’s something wrong with me. Thank you for being concerned about me, I appreciate it. But please don’t worry, I am quite alright and I can look after myself. If I do need help with anything, please know that I will ask you. Is that okay? I hope you would do the same with me and tell me if there’s anything I could help you with.” Keep drawing back.
Gosh I just realised we’re around the same age. What does she want your ssn for? Is that ok with you? It’s just, well, she’s still treating you like a dependent daughter who can’t do anything for herself and who doesn’t understand how the world works – and you most definitely are not that person!
Last time my mother tried to pull a daft trick on me I yelled “mother I am 42 years old!”. Bit of a shock to her boyfriend who thought I was about 8 years younger. Ha ha ha ha.
I don’t know Dawning, whether you need to stand up to her or ignore her. I’ve never really stood up squarely to mine. Can’t see the point, we’d just argue, get upset and she would not see my point of view. And I’d be far more upset than her – I’m sure you would be too. We tend to feel, they do not, they react. I haven’t worked it out, but little or no contact seems to work well for a number of people here. I haven’t read anyone saying they stood up and achieved anything (other than separation). And our mothers don’t miss ‘us’ – they miss the supply. Anyone can supply it, we’re not special to them in that respect but we do tend to fool ourselves that we are, coz then we can imagine that we might be loved. What an illusion huh?
Think of your friend’s smirk on that holiday and your mother’s behaviour – those people deserve no part of you, you’re too valuable. Think of those wonderful people who took you in their shop when you were crying. They deserve a long letter more than others….
Your mother’s not in the same reality as you and she never will be. You need to protect and build your reality up, not let her in! It’s not easy. Dr G says somewhere (Little Voice article I think) about N’s being primarily aggressive. That’s a good one to keep in mind at all times. Your mother’s a predator and you’re sometimes the prey. This is another one of my illusions – that’s she’s weaker than me. Rubbish! She’s tough as old boots and I’m an adult abused child. I need to protect me, not her. You too I bet. best....P
Sorry, more:
She sent a string of terrible emails last month when I mentioned to her a personal, intimate event that made me happy. I wanted to share my happiness with her and, instead, she throws all this rage at me!
Interpretation: you're happy (better than her) so she N rages (how dare you be happier than me/without including me) and then she has to make herself better than you to regain ego (there's something wrong with you Dawning...which will make me happier!) ...Step away from this dance floor, it's sick.
So I pulled back. I remained cool in my responses and didn't get upset even though I had a right to.
You have every right to, in the normal, real, thinking world. But that's not her world. Get upset here - not with her. Here is safe - mother is not. Plus, your cousin is not the best person to advise you, however good their intentions: your therapist would be better. Hugs.
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Dawning,
My feedback is to send your mother the short email reply. Don't give her vulnerable information, she will only use it against you. Post your letter here instead.
bunny
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Yeah, I'm with bunny, post it here. But I have to admit I say that not from any mature adult reason. :D I'd just love to read it. :D
CG
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Okay. Long story, small point.
Dear guest today, may I say, "Long story, very good point."
CG
Hi Dawning, a question. If you could imagine all the actions and comments to you from your mum, coming from say, a neighbour or someone at work, how would your letter read then???
Just a thought.
CG
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Dawning,
My dealings with my N mother have taught me never give her any fuel for her anger. A long letter will just add to the fire.
My mother in law who is very wise told me a story that when she young, she sent a letter to a relative letting her know how she felt. (She was peeved with her for something) Well anyway after the lady died many years later, her family were going through her things and they found that letter that was sent so many years before. She had kept it all those years.
If I were to send my mother a letter she would keep it until she died. No doubt about it. It wouldn't help my cause one lousy bit anyway. I have no voice. I realized that finally.
My mother would take the letter and would read it and re-read it and be wounded and re-wounded Revelling in the pain. It would be all about her. The message that I would be trying to relay (I.E. Mom - You are toxic to me -you hurt me) would get flipped in her mind anyway. She would turn it around and say that I was toxic to her - never seeing my points, never seeing that she was hurting me, never seeing that I was not an extension of her and had my own life,wants, dreams & desires, never seeing that not everything I did was about her, basically never SEEING.
I hated talking to my mother on the phone too. It got so bad that she once said that I was a "phone retard". The fact of the matter is that I was censoring myself at every sentence before I said it. Will this hurt her feelings? Will she take this the wrong way? Will she read between the lines and read something into what I'm saying that I didn't intend? Will this or that offend her? Heaven forbid I offend her - I'll never hear the end of it. - She'll use this against me for ever. She'll drag this up 20 years from now. It got to the point that I could barely speak - My mind was working overtime just trying to calculate what to say and finally I could barely say anything -because EVERYTHING was about /against/ her.
Nothing I can say to reveal myself gets through. I doubt that it ever will. I gave up trying to tell her how I feel & what I think. It is irrelavant anyway to her. She is a black hole in my life. I've thrown so much energy down the drain, so much time and effort. It got me nowhere. We are now estranged today because of what "I've" done / or not done. (in her mind)
We are estranged today because "I" quit giving. I cut off the one way supply. We are at a standstill. I've got nothing more to tell her. I've got nothing more to share. I've got nothing more that I want to say that I haven't already TRIED to say in the past. If she doesn't want to know who I am, then I don't want her to know who I am - I don't care anymore.
Should you give up on having a voice with her? "The voice that is welling up and wants to come out" - probably so. Why waste your time anymore? Will it get you the results that you need? Will it give her fuel to burn hotter? Will it do you any good in the long run? Will you guys be closer or more distant?
I can certainly empathize with you. Let your voice be heard here.
mrtraced
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Thanks to all of you who have replied thus far. I haven't been able to spend much time writing today but I've read all the replies. THANKS for your support.
Will be back later. Hold down the fort, fellow-Swans. :D
~Dawning
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Thanks for all the replies thus far. I also realized that what I have been saying in my heart/mind since I was a little girl is, "if she only knew what she was doing, she would stop." So when New Guest wrote
There's no doubt that your mom is hurting you, that she doesn't play fair. From what you say, that is simply the way she is. The way she chooses to be.
I wondered last night, if she is choosing or doing it all unconciously or somewhere in between and I am curious - in a weird objective kind of way - to what degree she is aware of what she's doing.
There is a big part of me (maybe the little girl part) that still questions her behaviour as *I wonder if she knows what she is doing?* I look forward to participating on Rob's thread when I get back. Over the past 4 years, the other family members have written her off or pulled far, far away. She moved in with my grandmother when she lost her rental property.
My advice? Show her you're the kind of person who doesn't put up with emotional blackmail, childish tantrums from adults, and who takes responsibility for her own growth, thankyouverymuch.
Thanks for that, Wildflower and (and thanks for posting that link to another thread.) I have felt it for a long time but felt alone and too vulnerable to stand up to her without support from somewhere so it is nice to hear it from someone else. Showing her is difficult when we live a 16 hour plane ride away from one another. But, yes, actions speak louder than words. And she is angry at me now because I am not putting up with her behaviour. My cousin's advice was to send the letter otherwise, she will think she can get away with it the next time.
P, your suggestion of what to write to her is spot-on. Thanks for putting that up. I helps me along. "Keep drawing back."
What I am coming around to accepting is that is possible (and definitely necessary now) to have a relationship with her only from a distance and I can have emotional distance from her at any time. This is going to take some work and, no doubt, will involve some rocky boat rides but I guess it is like a journey in a way - a new dance. But I reckon she is going to howl and get really nasty at the beginning and that may last a long time.. How can it be that she relates to me the way a 6 year old relates to his/her mother?
I am still wondering about that letter. Maybe I will post some snippets of it here. :) Thanks all of you for listening and offering the stuff of wisdom. Thanks for being here. I would like to answer some of the questions so gratefully received. I am going to the mountains for 4 nights starting today and will be back Wednesday. While gone, I will be re-reading Healing the Child Within and possibly the Boundaries book by Anne Katherine. That one is also very good.
Love and Peace 2 all of you.
~Dawning
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Hi Dawning –
OR spilling my guts to her once and for all by sending the long letter I finished writing last week… The danger in doing this is that she will take any response and run with it, using it as a way to get back inside my head.
I know it's terribly tempting to want to send that letter and believe that at some level your mother will grasp what you are feeling and how she has hurt you. I think you already know that it won’t happen.
What I wonder is how much can we, those of us who deal with Ns in our lives, influence our own outcome. For example, if you change the way you see your mother, you see her the way a stranger would. No emotional ties. Just as another human person. Would the outcome change for you? You mention that she acts in a horrible way, and then sometime later you do some action to make things better. A stranger wouldn't do the action to make things better. They'd take the situation for what it was. If they met a rude, selfish and careless person, they would distance themselves. No trying to fix. No making better. No getting involved. They wouldn't be terribly hurt or angry. It would be one more interaction with a rude person.
I want from her what I can't have from her. I must have realized that in childhood and coped by telling myself that I shouldn't want anything and so, yes, I have deprived myself in certain areas that were important to me...and now I want to want a more meaningful life and I am wondering if part of that change may involve standing up to her.
sending her a quick reply to today's email telling her there is nothing wrong with me and I won't have her continue to tell me so
Your and Guest Today’s posts above reminded me of a section in the book When You and Your Mother Can’t Be Friends, where the author talks about breaking the pattern of interaction you have with your mother by setting limits on her behaviour and controlling your own reaction rather than trying to change hers. I just loved these when I read them because they seemed so sane and right, but were things that I would never have thought of saying. Here are three (I’m paraphrasing some of this):
Georgia, a high school principal with three young children, decided for Christmas to give all the women in her family nightgowns by mail order. “My mother was offended because I didn’t take the time to go to a store and get something different…She called me at school and started screamiing at me. I did what I always do and got defensive and said ‘Mom, I have to buy forty Christmas gifts – don’t you know the one thing I don’t have is time to shop for presents?’ Suddenly I realized that I was talking to a child, and I was acting like one. I thought, Why am I defending myself? Why should I have to be saying this? Finally, I said, ‘This is unacceptable behaviour and I never want to have a conversation like this with you again,’ and I hung up. I looked up and the office staff, who knew all about my mother, were standing there cheering.”...
When my daughter graduated from college, I threw a huge party for her. When my mother arrived, she looked at me and said, “I hate your hairdo.” Then she walked into the dining room and said, “Where’d you get that ugly flower arrangement?” I calmly replied, “If you’re going to talk to me like that, I don’t want you here.” She was shocked. But she didn’t say another critical word....
If your mother says, “Your brother calls me every day, you only call every other day,” you can say, “Yup. That’s right.” Your mother may be so startled by your agreeing with her that she’ll change the subject. Repeating your line enough times may discourage her from every bringing up the subject again. Let us say, however, that she pursues it – she tells you you’re “selfish,” rebuking you as though you were a misbehaving child. You can reply, “If you’re going to speak to me that way, I’m not going to call you for a while. I feel you’re being rude. I don’t like your tone. I won’t allow anyone to speak to me that way.”
The big point for me in all of these is that you don’t respond to the content of the criticism or attack – no matter what it’s about – by arguing or defending. Instead, you label your mother’s behaviour for what it is (rude, insulting, etc.) and say you won’t tolerate it. In your post above about sending a quick reply, why say, "There's nothing wrong with me"? That only gives her the opportunity to say, "Yes, there is." Could you just say, "Your comments are rude and insulting and if you ever say anything like that again I won't reply" -- or something like that?
I don’t know how your mother would react to being treated like this – i.e. like a rude person whose behaviour you won’t tolerate. The point is that you don’t try to predict, control or change her reaction – you decide what your reaction will be and stick to it.
My personal experience is that every effort on my part to explain my feelings to my mother in the expectation that she will understand or sympathize have failed, and I no longer share anything with her that would make me vulnerable to her, but I have gotten some satisfaction from labelling her unacceptable behaviours.
Guest
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I just have to buy that book too. It's on my amazon list. And so so so thankyou for reminding me how much I need to read it plus that other one!?. That was a really comprehensive post 'guest'. They're some very good words, feedback and thoughts for you Dawning, and all of us dealing with (to put it mildly, how about crushed by) bullying, selfish, destructive, manipulative and even N family members friends a co-workers. What daya' reckon Dawning?
CG
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I absolutely must finish my packing but just wanted to say that I deeply appreciate the comments and the interest in this thread.
What daya' reckon Dawning?
I reckon I need to process it all but I let me just say that the support here is very empowering and I finally feel like I have found the well where I can drink water without being pushed aside. I also reckon that this *well* is pretty big (testament to our big hearts, likely.)
And, CG, that is a very Aussie thing to say if I may make an observation. :)
I'm missing the group already but I am doing the get-out-of-the-city thing and will be computer-less for several days. I look forward to logging back in with more time to share.
~Dawning
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Havyaevaredeni c.j.dennis
CG :D
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The big point for me in all of these is that you don’t respond to the content of the criticism or attack – no matter what it’s about – by arguing or defending.
Hear, hear! My motto is: "Don't explain yourself." When I hear myself defending and explaining, I see I'm going down a bad road and immediately stop doing it.
Great post. I've never told my mother anything as blunt as this book describes, but she knows I am not to be trifled with. And I'm still scared of her! But I don't let her know it.
bunny
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The big point for me in all of these is that you don’t respond to the content of the criticism or attack – no matter what it’s about – by arguing or defending.
Hear, hear! My motto is: "Don't explain yourself." When I hear myself defending and explaining, I see I'm going down a bad road and immediately stop doing it.
That's a great motto, bunny. I think I'm only beginning to recognize when I'm on that road, but you're right. Once you realize you're there, it's time to stop - immediately. I'm wondering though, do you think this motto applies to everyone, or just your mother? {EDIT: I mean, I'm wondering whether, in some cases, explaining myself or even arguing and defending myself is the right thing to do - or if it's something I should avoid altogether, no matter who I'm talking to}
"if she only knew what she was doing, she would stop."
I think I was doing this with my parents for a long time, too, and even now I slip into trying to get them to see my point of view if I'm tired or I forget ( :idea: forget what? that they're not like my friends? hmmm...need to think on that one). It's tough though, isn't it?
Have a great weekend!!! I'm so glad to hear you packing :D :D.
Wildflower
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I'm wondering though, do you think this motto applies to everyone, or just your mother?
Hi Wildflower - I'm wondering, too. I wonder why?! :wink: :D
Here, now, recently, and a while back -
On another occasion, other people became irritated, involved, angry, sad, mean, hurtful when I was struggling with this issue. To explain or not to explain; to be or not to be (!)
.... uncomfortable, shameful, helpless is how it felt. Some people think this should 'stop'. Some people want to laugh. Some people want to pack up and go home. Some people want to stab, maim and kill.
Well, I guess that's their individual problem to deal with - it's a pity if it interferes with me and others trying to sort themselves out.
My goodness, some people were so spiteful, full of blame, and holier than thou on that previous occasion. Now that I know how important the journey was, those attitudes just make me feel so angry! I should have been angry about it back then - but I was just too ashamed and frightened - and they fed that shame and fear. So I also now realise that their attitude was simply abusive and perpetuates the abuse already inflicted on our innocent hearts (ie when we were children).
For my money, if we (you and I) hadn't struggled - in all good heart - neither of us would have discovered what we did.
Sometimes we need to find a hard place to come up against for the truth to burst free.
What do you think???????
I'm glad, really glad, we went on that short journey together. I love the post you did earlier today. And I know I've made a major breakthrough, too!!!!
And I know something else even more clearly today - when two people are both hurting, they both want to be heard at the same time. And that's going to be true in marriage. And intimate close relationships of any kind. And it's almost impossible for both parties to get heard at the same time. So that explains a lot, too (tho I'm not sure what the solution is!).
Hugs, mega hugs - and thank you. :)
R
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Sorry! I just checked the title of this thread. I guess my post was off topic - or was it!?
I keep coming up against the idea that my mother is suffering just as much as I am. In a different way, yet the same. She sees me through the filter of her neglectful mother; I see her as my mother but through the filter of a child's eyes - at age 2, 10, 19 and all the ages in between as the occasion dictates (otherwise I couldn't experience myself as her 'victim').
Is it - ultimately - so very different??? Hmmm - only in terms of insight, I think. She has none. I struggle to 'get there'. She's dangerous to me when she's an angry 2 year old and if I'm open to her (whatever age I'm experiencing her at). So that's when NOT to get involved in attempting to 'reason'. But two people who are 'capable' of being 'grownup' should be able to go the extra mile towards mutual understanding, even when hurting.
Challenging thoughts????
Hugs to all.
R
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Hi- I just read here that there you guys have never found a benefit for standing up to a N mother. Not that I am in any way done, but I have been in therapy with my mom for over a year (instigated by me). The goal before and during has been to grow as a person in me. When I stand up to her, it was like the responses I've read here, but each time, something shifted, and it still is. She is never going to change, ever. But facing my own frustrations and hidden fears is like peeling this huge onion, and her "cutting" knife of behaviors ironically is helping me get to the core of myself. Its like training as an athlete or something, I just keep growing inside because of it. I do have my own therapist and have seen him for 4 years, so the outside voice and support helps, but she has shifted from a monster to a fuck-up, because I have shifted from internally terrified and defended to a greater sense of strength. It can be helpful, but difficult, but should not be ruled out as an option.
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Hi ellen,
The goal before and during has been to grow as a person in me. When I stand up to her, it was like the responses I've read here, but each time, something shifted, and it still is. She is never going to change, ever. But facing my own frustrations and hidden fears is like peeling this huge onion, and her "cutting" knife of behaviors ironically is helping me get to the core of myself. Its like training as an athlete or something, I just keep growing inside because of it. I do have my own therapist and have seen him for 4 years, so the outside voice and support helps, but she has shifted from a monster to a fuck-up, because I have shifted from internally terrified and defended to a greater sense of strength. It can be helpful, but difficult, but should not be ruled out as an option.
I've had exactly the same kind of experience with my dad. The more I stand up to him, the more foolish he seems (though I think I've finally seen it all, thank goodness).
But I'm just pondering a little here. On this thread, yeah, the advice was to let it go, don't explain. I think that's right because the idea is not to give them any arsenal.
But instead, to stand up to an N, you have to be able to stand firm. Be a pole they blow around and reveal themselves to. Do things because you want to and not in reaction to them - like speaking the truth instead of telling them what they need to hear. Or telling them you don't appreciate their racist/sexist/classist comments. Or reminding them that the world does not, in fact revolve around them (that's a good one :roll: ).
I dunno...just trying to sound this out. It's not a good idea to be vulnerable around an N, but it can be very revealing to be (firmly) yourself in spite of all their attempts to get you to conform to their needs.
Hmmm. Thanks for posting that.
Wildflower
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Now I understand what people have talked about when they talk about N's and the aggressive factor. They aggressively kick people around or attempt to. When you are a little kid, it is hard to stand up to that. They are sooooo big. I remember when I was 8 years old on the playground during sports class. There was a game called tug of war where the gym teacher would call two kids in separate lines of teams and each one would grab one end of the rope and pull and try to win the rope from the other one. When it was my turn, I didn't even try, I just let go of the rope. Then, the kids would inevitably make fun of me as kids do. But I had just given up on fighting that aggression. I had an "N Regime" too as Nic wrote so it wasn't just my mother. Then, you start to get older and older and now you are as big as they are. Heh. And the unfairness of it all gets harder and harder to ignore. Maybe I should have titled this thread "Standing up for Oneself".
One other thing.......I see now where even until relatively recently, I let Nists -not only relatives - get the better of me and stifle my self-expression. :x There are a lot of ways to stand up for oneself and I am learning alot and grateful for the ideas, stories, etc.
I haven't sent the letter. Not yet anyway. I like having written it though. :)
~Dawning
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I also have found not to give my NMom any ammunition. Anything that is said or written positively will be reworked to be criticized.
I do know what you mean about being phone retarded. Just speaking with her or telling her how your day is going will be stored and vomited out to my friends/family with a spin on it.
So, while I feel guilty about being out of communication and not letting her into my life, I feel she hasn't earned it.
I do write her letters all the time and let her know how I feel. Keep them in the house a week or two, and then throw it away. It just does feel good to write down the frustrations.
Nowadays got the "guilties" going on. With dad being in a nursing home, he has lost his energy to keep on going. The NMom is pushing all the buttons and the "if you were only closer" buttons you could do this for me.
I want to be around for dad, and then move the NMom to the place she will live until she dies, and then be done with her.
Also feel guilty, this is not the way I envisioned it going down. I was always hoping the NMom would be the one to go first and dad and I could live in the same area. Now I see that dad will be leaving first - and in the midst of all that personal grief, the NMom will use this to her advantage to circle the entire family around her. . . again.
Always considered the possibility of completely cutting her away from me, but didn't want dad to suffer for her actions (tho he may have enabled part of that). I also don't understand what would make a man like him completely be manipulated for years by her.
Maybe it was just easier to be manipulated than to leave her. . . but it did cost him (for some years) a good relationship with his kids.
Just rambling :)
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I keep coming up against the idea that my mother is suffering just as much as I am. In a different way, yet the same. She sees me through the filter of her neglectful mother; I see her as my mother but through the filter of a child's eyes - at age 2, 10, 19 and all the ages in between as the occasion dictates (otherwise I couldn't experience myself as her 'victim').
Is it - ultimately - so very different??? Hmmm - only in terms of insight, I think. She has none. I struggle to 'get there'. She's dangerous to me when she's an angry 2 year old and if I'm open to her (whatever age I'm experiencing her at). So that's when NOT to get involved in attempting to 'reason'. But two people who are 'capable' of being 'grownup' should be able to go the extra mile towards mutual understanding, even when hurting.
Challenging thoughts????
Hugs to all.
R
Rosencrantz,
I find these very challenging thoughts. At first it seemed enough just to have a glimmer of understanding as to what was going on as far as life with a NMother. But what do I do now?
My mother had some tough times growing up. She was the oldest of 9 children and her mother died when my mother was 17 and her youngest brother was 4. Then her father was hit by a car and killed 10 years later. Being the oldest must certainly have been a factor in her personality. And the loss of her mother would have compounded that.
I'm not sure what the situation with her father was. She claims he was an alcoholic and extremely authoritarian; but anyone who disagrees with her is at fault, and the only time she approves of drinking is when she would like a drink. Which, thankfully, is very seldom, especially these days.
Now that she's 79 years old, does this excuse past and present cruelty? I think she must be suffering, but maybe that's just projecting.
You say your mother has no insight, and neither does mine. None whatsoever, I believe. But maybe I'm wrong. It's the not knowing that keeps my guilt running full tilt when I try to keep my distance.
One thing I'm sure of is that she's really not capable of being a "grown-up" in the real sense. And I'm almost certain there will never be any mutual understanding.
My mother's way of maintaining relationships is to deal with one family member at a time, alternating between rage and the ability to act as though nothing has ever been wrong in the relationship. Unfortunately both my sister and brother accept this and lie low when the rage is at them, resurfacing and pretending nothing happened when it's directed somewhere else.
I can't do this anymore. Or maybe I can, and I'm just being selfish. Not long ago my mother phoned me at 11:30 pm to say she was feeling unwell and wanted to let me know in case she expired during the night. "I shouldn't trouble myself," but she thought someone should know. Of course I offered to come right over, which I did, and stayed with her all night leaving at around 6:00 am when she was certain the crisis had passed.
I still don't know what the actual health problem was, some stomach discomfort...all very vague. But she later mentioned to me, as if it were perfectly reasonable, that her real reason in wanting me to come over was so that I could write down her dying words. She even had a steno pad and a pen ready when I arrived, although I didn't know that until later. I guess she couldn't quite bring herself to request that I be poised to take dictation all night. She's been preparing for her deathbed scene ever since my father died three years ago, instructing as to who she will and will not allow to be present depending on who's in favor and who's out.
The reality is that one of these days, it will be for real and I have to ask myself if I can live with myself if I'm not there for her. Or this could go on for another fifteen or more years in which case I'll be in a strait jacket and unable to take dictation anyway when the actual moment comes.
It's all VERY challenging :( and I'm certain that from the perspective of anyone who has NOT had to deal with an N, that I am neither understanding, nor mature. How does one go about explaining this stuff to "normal" people without sounding like an absolute fool?
Singer
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I know there are alot of replies here but standing up to an N is critical to real human growth beyond these people and to stand up to know YOU are not crazy, they are!!!!!!!!!!!! This can not be stressed enough!!! They pull you into their world and all of a sudden you don't exist. WE can not let that happen forever or can not be in their world for long if you want real growth!
I have been away from my ex-N for almost 6 months now ( I moved far away for him) and I am just realizing how much I had entered into "his world" and I did not exist in it. I exist and I am a person with feelings and emotions and love and kindness, I don't have anyone telling me that I am wrong all the time. I am able to feel my feelings even though at times this has been difficult due to not having any for 20 years but it is great to have them and to feel them!!!!
I know it must seem easy for me to talk about moving away and having distance between me and my ex-N but that was for saftey and my kids.
When it is a parent that is something else all together and I can relate.
My mother was not an N but she was and is mentally ill and a phycopath, I am not being mean that is her diagnoises. Growing up in that environment is very similar to the N's world, they think they are the only ones with feelings and everyone else especially children are to be seen but not heard. So guess what that means you have no feelings!! ( No wonder I am drawn to mentally ill people, God help me!) So my advice to Mother's who are like this, except them for who they are and don't try and change them but stand up and let them know you will not be treated like that as adults. No will change unless they want to change but if you change your behavoir then they will have to change theirs eventually.
Thanks for letting me sound off and Have a great weekend!!! kelly
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Help-Attention Campaign - brilliant! THANKS for putting in the link, Willdflower. Rojo, if you are out there....you really put it into words...I feel it too.
New Guest:
What I wonder is how much can we, those of us who deal with Ns in our lives, influence our own outcome. For example, if you change the way you see your mother, you see her the way a stranger would.
Ah, but my mother would be on to that for a second. It is okay dealing with her from 7,000 miles away but - with her- I've got to think differently almost. 6 year old, 6 year old. I'm learning to accept that.
~D.
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My mother would take the letter and would read it and re-read it and be wounded and re-wounded Revelling in the pain. It would be all about her. The message that I would be trying to relay (I.E. Mom - You are toxic to me -you hurt me) would get flipped in her mind anyway. She would turn it around and say that I was toxic to her - never seeing my points, never seeing that she was hurting me, never seeing that I was not an extension of her and had my own life,wants, dreams & desires, never seeing that not everything I did was about her, basically never SEEING.
Oh, gawd. I'm sorry, you too? That is so true. My mother would do the same thing. I SEE. Yes, it's true. I see the same thing as you. (Does that not sound like Dr. Suess...? lightness...) It is just amazing, though. They don't see in *that* way. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, mrtraced.
Well, the latest. Getting emails from her. Haven't spoken since the end of March. I'm replying with the aid of an hour glass to time my replies. :lol: Based on recent email, she is transferrring the Nsupply to my grandmother who is already an N - but an old one. When grandmother goes, Nmom is highly likely to to turn to me again. (maybe she'll find someone else....I still have hope.) I can't kick the woman out on the streets and it is not in my nature to do this. Although, if she knew I was even having the thought, she would be like Blanche Dubois in a Streetcar Named Desire and I am the GUILTY PARTY just for insinuating that she was less than perfect and not deserving of ALL my attention. Whew!! I can't - above all else - talk about how I feel about my life but yet she seems to want to know. Then, I give in to belief and tell her about my life and she judges it as if she is in a position to do so. Maybe relating to her as a stranger is the way. Something to ponder. But I would probably have to put on a good act at the beginning.
~D.
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Hi--I'm a new poster here but I've been reading this board for a few weeks on and off.
My response is slightly on/off topic. I "stood up to N" this morning but it was my ex-SO, not my mother. Of course, he doesn't know I stood up to him because I did it by choosing not to confront him with the casual lie he told me yesterday and the evidence he left for me to see. Any attention I give him, good or bad, is just more documentation of how important he thinks he is to me and I just won't give that to him anymore.
So instead of talking to him or writing the long email to him, I wrote the email to my sister. We are survivors of an N-mother and she is my biggest supporter through all of this--likewise, I am hers.
My recommendation is to write all the letters you need to, edit them as many times as you want, and send them to yourself, a supporter, or this board. Remember "the truth" for N is whatever suits his/her need at the moment. Since your letter will not suit their needs, it will automatically be "lies" from the N-pointofview. Get your satisfaction from knowing the N will never get to use your insight against you.
Take care and be strong--
DiveDiveDive
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Very well put! Divedivedive, I have been doing the same thing but with no contact with my ex-N and it gives me satifaction knowing he doesn't get his n supply from me anymore!!!! I have been angry about it lately but I take a deep breathe and know that he isn't hurting me and getting his jollies off me anymore. That is enough to make the anger not so much and I can do the things I enjoy in life.
Have a great mothers day all!!!!
Kelly
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CG wrote:
Hi Dawning, a question. If you could imagine all the actions and comments to you from your mum, coming from say, a neighbour or someone at work, how would your letter read then???
Thanks, CG. Here is a recent letter I wrote to someone like you described above:
That was not my intention at all but you are certainly entitled to your
feelings. And your choice of words was obviously designed to hurt. You must
be in a lot of pain and I hope writing me in this manner helped you get
something off your chest. It appears you didn't bother to look at the
subject line - a QUESTION directed to how YOU ARE DOING. Anyway, if I
replied to friends keeping me up to date with the news from their personal
lives in this way, I would not have any friends. I understand how you feel
about xmas (I have felt like that too.) My telephone/email channels have
always been open to you and I have ALWAYS HONOURED YOUR REQUESTS but I also
understand that people have their own lives to lead and stories to tell even
when I feel that mine are not heard at the time when I want them to be. In
any case, I get the message loud and clear (though I am afraid that you are
wrong in your assumptions about me) and will duly remove your email address
from my records. Better to find out something like this now than after a lot
has been invested emotionally.
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That was me above. Log in...log in...
~Dawning.
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I sound like a bitchy N in that last post. I wrote a letter here and it disappeared. All my mails are disappearing. Is this a sign or something?
Has anyone else experienced the maddening frustration when you write out a mail and it just DISAPPEARS???
Anyway, what I wrote last night , was that the email I responded to in the letter above was hurtful to me. The writer (a former colleague) was accusatory and she saw only her side. I have no regrets about sending that response. It was the first time I can remember deciding that I wasn't going to take this sh*t and that I could open my mouth - via email - and tell her that I am not all that bad and I won't have her say so. She responded to my response asking me to call her sometime. :shock: The old me would probably have given in and called, hoping that she had become nice. But, now I think, WHY would I call someone who wrote such a hurtful letter to me and I can't think of a reason. And mother-questions? I don't get many either. Except for the ones with the word *me* in them. i.e. "would you like to call *me?* Why do these people want ME to call THEM. They have a phone. They can take responsibility and call me if they want to speak to me. Sheesh. Maybe my mother is afraid of rejection like I am and she is afraid I will reject her if she calls so she asks me to call her. Oh, I dunno. But, as R said in this thread, she lacks *any* insight and, if she has it, she's not sharing it. She wants me to take ALL the responsibility to enable her to get what she wants. And I am not doing it anymore. The best thing I can do is get on with my life and change the parts I want to change and evaluate where I am at and TAKE ACTION. Get myself untangled from the machine. I think I did something like that with the colleague.
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No D, it doesn’t sound like a bitchy N to me. What I get from your words is loads of hurt and anger. Were you that angry at this person? Is there a tad of misplaced anger in it, maybe meant for mom? Just wondering coz you really are angry! But then I don’t know the background, goodness knows what she said to you but whatever it was, it’s clear you don’t need that ‘friendship’ eh? (Wanna talk about what she said? Did I get you squirming just then? Wanna get that tumour out or is it benign?)
As for mails disappearing, nah, I write in Word and paste it in, saves the irritation. No it isn’t a sign, quell that worry okay?
And untangle from the machine? I like the idea of the Matrix, but it’s the NMatrix to me, quite an effective image. Seriously! Alternative realities and all that. P
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Dawning,
You don't sound bitchy in your letter. My guess is that you sent some kind of Christmas newsletter to a group email, and she didn't like it; and asked to be taken off the list in a mean way. She could have just deleted the email if she wasn't into it. I used to get "group email" jokes from a woman and they were coming every day. I asked her to remove me from her list. I wrote to her in a businesslike manner. I think she was hurt, but I didn't care, because she was basically bothering me with her dumb emails.
One Christmas email isn't going to kill anyone. There are people who literally hate these family newsletters and who find them deeply offensive. Maybe your ex-friend is one of them. In any case, her request for YOU to call HER is quite nervy so don't do it.
bunny
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P and Bunny,
Thanks for the letter feedback. It wasn't a xmas mass mailing on my part that set her off. It was that her needs were not being met, she did not make those needs known to me and when I sent her a friendly email to stay in touch, she lashed out with character assassination-techniques probably designed to make me feel guilty. Immediately, I wrote the letter I posted above. It was empowering to do that cause it felt like I had removed something yucky (not HER but the reaction reading her email had on me) that would have festered if I had not sent the letter. N parents are a bit trickier. No, ALOT trickier. If only it were this easy. Mind you, this woman was not a good friend. We worked together. I shared some confidences with her and vice-versa and I did not deserve to have those confidences thrown back in my face as ammunition. NOT the type of person I want to share confidences with in the future. NOT a safe place. I think the sad part is that she could have expressed her feelings without resorting to the types of things she said in that letter. Okay, maybe I haven't fully detached from parent-issues, maybe I have been attracted to lying English men in the past and maybe the people at my place of employment ARE facists...but what is her point? I think her letter was a cry for help but. doing so in that way, is not the way to get my help. I'm not stoopid (anymore.) :x :) Today, I got a letter from a friend talking about something that happened a long time ago and her feelings about it. She didn't attack me and I responded telling her that it was good that she brought this up. Therein lies the difference.
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Hey Dawning:
I did not deserve to have those confidences thrown back in my face as ammunition.
Anyone that uses confidences as ammunition is not a friend. No-one deserves that.
Okay, maybe I haven't fully detached from parent-issues, maybe I have been attracted to lying English men in the past and maybe the people at my place of employment ARE facists...but what is her point?
Yeah! What IS her point? I agree, why is she saying these things to you? Sounds like she’s trying to get you to see things her way (and is trying to undermine you), and that smacks of trying to control – something I’d run away from very fast. IF those things are true, only you know that and only you can deal with your reactions to them…so why is she attacking you about them? That’s how it seems from what you’ve written. Some kind of power-play. Chuck it. And her asking you to call her? Yeah, because she’s got a reaction from you, an angry one, she feels back in control, she can reel you in for another go. And she knows she’s upset you so maybe that makes her feel better!!!! Aurgh. :evil: Nasty. Ignoring them is the only option. Maybe I’m way off here but this is what I saw in your post. Take care D. P
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Okay, maybe I haven't fully detached from parent-issues, maybe I have been attracted to lying English men in the past and maybe the people at my place of employment ARE facists...but what is her point?
To tell you that she's a nutcase?
I'm glad you had a sane interaction with another friend. :P
bunny
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When my narcissistic mother plays her usual games with me, I don't take it anymore like I did as a child. Since the day I left home, for good when I was 16, I learned to stand up for myself. Now when the narcissist rages on me (like my mother did and does so much), I RAGE right back at her, with more fervor.. And it has done the job. She will backdown. However, I have come to the end of my rope where she is concerned and have extractd her from my life, for good.
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Just wondering if anyone has ever beaten their N mother?
I fought back once when i was a teenager after so many years of unreasonable physical and emotional abuse. It felt good to fight back in self defense and retaliation. I am otherwise never a violent person, and very calm and peace-loving in fact.
its a big taboo to beat your mother, and i have kept silence about this for over 20 years now. but, i have realized that it was natural to defend myself because, unlike my family, i do care and love myself. YAY!!
so i will no longer feel bad about beating my mother when she tried to beat me first. And, yes, that was the last time, she ever laid a hand on me, as i continued to grow and tower over her.
Fortunately, i am now much older and able to care less about her and walk away calmly, even laughing at her absurdity and thinking how disillusioned she is that she thinks she can still pull manipulations on me.
:twisted: ha! it doesn't work on me anymore. they are nothing but funny stories to share with my compassionate friends.
Its great to read all the posts here. it seems all the writing has been done for me to read and relate back to my own tragic upbringing. still have loads of work to do for recovery. Thanks everybody!!!
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I have never fought back, but I do it a lot in my little fantasy survival world. I know to this day that if I came face to face with Ndad he would attempt to strike me.
I have imagined many times how good it would feel to lay a big one right in the middle of his face! I wish I had fought back as a child. I only ran crying to my room for safety. I dreamed about getting even all of my life.
Now I have gotten even - they can't have me anymore. What more can I take from them that would have a grearter impact? Sure they probably act like it doesn't bother them, but truth be known, they would move heaven and earth to get me back to my little compliant ways.
Oh the thought of hitting back, belting them one good with a belt or switch, oh that seems good. I have imagined duck taping them to chairs and making them sit and listen to me, force them to finally LISTEN to me and how good that would feel.
But after discovering what Ns they are, I now know that would make no difference at all. Thinking I had their attention would be a farce - they would not hear a single word I would say. So it's just fantasy, but it makes me smile thinking about striking back! :lol:
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Wow Ellie. Thanks for sharing those fantasies. I can hear the anger in your voice - good for you for getting it off your chest! :D
I had alot of fantasies too growing up. And ran to my room alot. In fact, I did that alot until relatively recently. Now I stand my ground wherever I am it even if it means pulling back. I'm worth it :D but it is an on-going process. I never learned how to stand up for myself as a kid. And I am still learning.
ch,
Thanks for *your* post. There is something in it that is so spot-on...so right on...I'm getting the feeling that you have been very committed to your recovery for some time. 20 years of not talking about hitting her....I'd like to give you a big hug for opening up and trusting. <<<<ch>>>
I never hit my Nmother as a teenager. Once, I wanted her to kill me during those years. Makes sense when I see how much she hated me for individuating. But I was playing right into her hands...I was giving her the power to take my life. In retrospect, I *see* that she LIKED it when I lost control for a number of reasons.
When I began to control myself - on my terms -her true colours begain to show. A few years ago, she said something to me so vile and mean that I knocked her on the sofa. She's backed off quite a bit since then in raging at me to my face. But she has continued to do it via the phone and emails if she doesn't get what she wants.
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Dawn,
I have a mother like yours. When I was little she trained me to be docile in response to her chaotic craziness. The way she would teach me to be this way was to threaten me that she would not love me anymore so I obeyed. As a little kid that was life threatening, you know. Then long after I grew up and went through all kinds of stuff, I realized she then needed me more than I needed her. I realized I was her only source for getting her N supply needs met. So I learned how to use her need for me to teach her how to treat me. I cut her off from my supply for a year. She went through all kinds of stuff. Anxiety attacks and hospital stays. I stood strong because I knew they were all tactics to get at me. Then I slowly began to let her into my life again, but I made it clear that she could only enter my life if she met certain conditions: treat me with respect. Every time she crossed that line I would leave or ask her to leave. Little by little she got it. But, the thing that gave me power was no longer wanting anything nor needing anything from her. That was the hard part. The way I got to that place was realizing that it didn't and never did matter what I did or became, she would never be the mother I wnted or needed. That was a hard place to come to. What helped me to come to that place was when I realized she would never be the mother I needed or wanted becasue she couldn't. For a long time I thought she wouldn't and that thought messed me up. Once I realized I had no control over how she responded to me and that she had no control either, I was able to forgive her and figure out how to make it work. It was by no means easy. I cried a lot before I could do it. It took years actually.
The other thing is that I had a lot of anger and I had to find a way to set it free with out harming her or me. So, I bought a box of dishes and a friend had a back yard with a brick wall. I slammed each dish against the wall as I screamed at her and God. I felt a lot better. And I was a whole lot less angry.
Another time, I took a chair and dressed it up with pillows, cloths and shoes that she would ware and place her picture there and pretended it was her. Then I told her eveything I wanted her to know, and hear. How she hurt me and how angry I was. It took a long time, hours that day. But, I felt a lot better and no one got hurt.
God bless you Dawn and your very difficult mother.
Amendy
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Hi to all posters on this thread and thanks to Jenocidal for bringing it back up.
Amendy wrote:
I realized I was her only source for getting her N supply needs met. So I learned how to use her need for me to teach her how to treat me. I cut her off from my supply for a year. She went through all kinds of stuff. Anxiety attacks and hospital stays. I stood strong because I knew they were all tactics to get at me.
Yup, I'm hearing you. Thanks so much. ((((Amendy))))
I'd like to share something that has happened recently. A natural disaster occurred where my mother lives. I have sent her over 5 emails and called over 5 times and no response, no answering machine. I have gotten updates from two other blood-relatives who live in another state. One of them told me that my mother is drinking alot now with one of her neighbors. What I keep saying to myself over and over again is that I *can't* save her. I fear that what will save her is for me to destroy myself. What makes me angry is that I know if a natural disaster occurred where I live, she would expect me to get to a phone and make communication with her at all costs. She would *tell* me that she needs to know I am okay. In a normal, less dysfunctional family this would be a normal need but, somehow with her, it feels too much like enmeshment. that she doesn't care about my life...she care about *her* daughter.
For me, I still feel the need to care about her as a person who might be incredibly stressed out. In any case, I have done what I can do. She's got to work these things out by herself. But....old program... says if your mother is upset, it is your job to take care of her; that is what you were born to do but I know now that it is not my responsibility to take care of her emotions or allow myself to be used or manipulated. I have learned that her phone is working now but I have heard nothing. Is this a tactic she is using to "get at me?" I wonder...
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I have learned that her phone is working now but I have heard nothing. Is this a tactic she is using to "get at me?" I wonder...
Could she be intoxicated and unable to remember whether she called you? I also think she is just selfish. You did your duty. I've often thought that the only thing that would really placate my mother would be to commit suicide! Of course that was really a revenge fantasy from my own rage.
Bottom line, we don't have to save another adult (and usually cannot), but we can show some baseline concern. That's my moral limit on it.
bunny
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Dawning,
It's hard to say what her motives are while she lives far away from you. I came to understand that all my mother's behaviors were all under suspect, for she seemed to never be able to be authentic regarding what was really going on around her or with her. It's complicated and your situation sounds worse while your mother is doing alcohol. I understand your feelings of responsibility and how you were problably trained as I was to always put her first nd her needs before yours. It is sad to hear that you would come to reason that ending your life would bring some kind of peace or relief to her. My hope for you is that someday you would come to realize that every damaging and hurtful thing she has ever said or had done to you never had anything to do with you. We so often make the mistake of thinking that how people treat us or respond to us or not respond to us has something to do with what we may have doen or not have done or even just exisiting. And it's hard to let go of this thought because it allows us to think that we are in some way in control. And even though I know this well, I still re-examine myself and search myself to try and find out what it is I have done to get the the treatment or response from others that I don't want. I have to constantly remind myself that what a person says or does in response to me has little to nothing to do with me.
The other thing I would do in response to my mother and her needs is ask myself what would God, or higher power, or love have me do? I would try to teach myself that Love cares about my well being as it cares about my mother and that I needed to consider what I needed with as much attention and consideration as I put forth toward considering my mother's needs. Sometimes I would need to call her to make sure she was all right, but not for her sake, but for mine. If I felt that calling her would further bring me harm, then I would find some other way to bring peace to myself.
When we take a plane trip the stewrdess emphasis how important it is to place the oxygen mask on ourself before we try to meet the oxygen needs of another. Now imagine the needy person is a child struggling to breath, would you ask that child to help the adult next to her before she helps herself? It seems this is what you are caught up in, because the adult is your mother. She has made it in life so far, she will continue to make it. Pray for her, hand her over to God and let him worry about it. You just keep doing what you need to do to take care of yourself. Believe me it will take you a life time.
I hope this helps,
Amendy