Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Iphi on August 15, 2007, 03:42:55 PM
-
I believe my dad is a cerebral N of the neglectful type. Sometimes though, I'm not so sure. I am hoping to share some specific interchanges from past years and get some different perspectives because people here really get it. Also, I just want to put it out there in front of people who know. These will be the things that really hit me.
1. Here is a recent one. My husband and I moved to a town that has some historic interest. Every time I spoke with my dad, he would tell me about the history of my town. This happened about three times. The next time I said, "Yes dad I know about how the town was founded. We have a founder's day every year. I live a mile from the town museum and the foundation documents are online." He was furious. He doesn't know anything about our house or our neighborhood and has never actually asked me what my town is like.
After that last conversation, when he says the name of my town he does so in a contemptuous, mocking way.
2. He came to my college graduation but looked put-upon and aggrieved the whole time. I had to push his wheelchair though my sister and cousins and aunt and uncle were there and could have done so. Afterward he was impatient to leave and wanted to know how long I would take to pack up my dorm room. I had thrown my stuff into a couple of trash bags ahead of time, because I anticipated this.
3. The two above occasions - 5 years ago and 15 years ago - are the only times he has visited me. He did not visit in college other than dropping me off for freshman year. I've never asked him to come because it is like a heavy unspoken thing in our family that you never ask dad for anything or to do anything because it is unthinkable to burden him that way. He used to say it would be terrible for him to travel and he can't do it. But in fact he does travel to visit his family and in past has expected me to drive him and help him make these trips. They were hellish trips throughout which he berated me and commits weird acts of sabotage. I've sworn never to convey him anywhere ever again - it leaves me feeling mauled.
4. When I went to college and afterward when I moved away, he didn't ask me if I needed anything or take any interest in that sort of thing at all. He has no interest in my life or doings or concerns and no knowledge of them. On day in high school I was cooking dinner and he was sitting at the kitchen table. I was upset because he never asked me anything about myself or seemed to know anything about me, so I decided to tell him all about my day in great detail. It became clear that he wasn't listening, so at a certain point I included being kidnapped by aliens in my narrative. Eventually he looked furious but never said anything/continued to ignore me. But of course then it was my fault for... doing whatever.
5. I used to think he did a lot of things for my sister and me because he would take us on all sorts of outings and get involved in activities. But in retrospect, every single activity and outing was of his choosing and if one of us (usually me) tried to say 'no' or suggest an alternative then there was a rage. But it confuses me because in this way it seems he wanted to act like an involved parent. But I think he wanted to play the role and also be in control of two little people and gather NS from us.
6. My dad is very educated. Over dinner and at various other times, the conversation is dad talks about interesting things and we listen. We are allowed to ask intelligent questions. This was always the way when we were growing up and still has been when I visit as an adult. This seems okay to me, and as long as he is happy it can be enjoyable and he is a good talker - but if there is a departure from him being the center of attention the mood shifts. Sometimes viciously.
7. He expects servitude unquestioningly. He just starts ordering me about when I visit. BUT, if I help him in some way that he is not directing, it infuriates him.
8. When he came for our wedding, he went out to eat with my in-laws. My MIL told be that he ignored my SIL and yet expected her to push his wheelchair and attend to his various needs. My MIL was upset that her daughter, who has advanced degrees and a high powered career, was treated like a servant. Tell me about it. :lol:
9. When I was in 4th grade I had long division homework and was having trouble. I asked him for help and when I didn't get it right away, he gave me a lecture on interesting (to him) things about calculus. When he wandered away, I cried. I felt so stupid. It's not the only time it happened, but it was the first and really stuck in my mind.
10. He had an enthusiasm to teach us to play piano, which he excelled at. He set us some scales and an easy tune, but when neither of us mastered these exercises right away he 'gave up' telling us it was pointless because we lacked ability, diligence and work ethic.
This things just haunt me sometimes. For a long time I put down the more recent behavior to his disability and the burdens of his life and excused him. I excused him basically from all responsibility. But he also demanded to be excused from all responsibility. It seems this made me an enabler. But also, especially after he got ill - which really began to happen when my sister and I were in junior high school, it was like no one could say no to anything or have any other plan that wasn't selfish. It was like becoming ill meant he was justified in having his way all the time, and at the same time was a complete release from anything he didn't want to do.
The illness has made it very hard for me to disentangle. Also it still feels at least partly wrong to think he should be responsible for his own behavior, or have responsibilities to people in his family.
Also, when I write this stuff I hear him, and sometimes my sister, in my mind denying it all and telling me none of it is the way I am saying it is. :?
-
Dear Iphi,
You've just described my mother and my ex husband.
Yes, that is exactly my understanding of cerebral N and I have no doubt that the way you're seeing it all is exactly as it is.
I'd comment point by point and say, yes, yes, yes... but will just leave it at one very big YES - and chills - they are just a human deep-freeze.
Hugs to you... I'm sorry, I have no solution other than what I tell myself - That's how she is, but I don't have to be that way and I don't have to allow her ways to diminish who I am.
Love,
Hope
-
Thank you so much for the validation CH. It feels really good!
-
((((((Iphi)))))) you're so welcome.
I was afraid to say more and get caught in that downward spiral of revisiting it all again.
To see it all written up together as you've done was shocking. I read as hurriedly as I could, which is really quite fast, and kept telling myself that I could just skim it and be okay, but every word sunk in.
What really strikes me is that, taken individually, each of these things might be fairly insignificant... okay, so the person isn't feeling well, or has alot of personal issues and struggles, or is even just plain old self-centered. But when you add it all up and see the patterns, the consistent disregard for others... it's startling!
I've never seen anyone put it all into words this way... and now I recognize even more clearly why so much of my ex husband's bizarre behaviour seemed so familar and unremarkable. It wasn't until he began the melodramatic NoNseNse that I really got concerned, because my mother never acted that out. She was and is exceptionally withdrawn and unemotional when angered.
#1 just about knocked me over. Every single attempt at conversation with my mother goes this route. I've always found it indescribably insufferable and... humilating. My dad will do something similar, but doesn't do the contemptuous mocking afterward.. mostly he's just totally uninterested in what's going on in anyone else's life; only wants to talk about himself and his interests.
She looks put-upon and aggrieved at every visit to our home, which has been about twice/year for the past 7 years. The highlite of her aggrievedness was when she had to suffer through the birth of her first grandchild, my eldest daughter, 25 years ago. Anyone listening would think she'd given birth herself, that day. Dad's solution to uncomfortable visits and every other difficult circumstance of life is to drink.
I've never tried inserting an alien abduction into one of my attempts at discussion with her ( :D), but that may be because I rarely get out more than 6 words without an interruption and complete topic change to whatever her dire need of the moment might be... even if it's just to rotate something in the microwave.
#6 - the story of my life at home. It's not normal, natural, or okay... it's pathetic and wrong of any adult to monopolize family times and put children, young or grown, into the role of sitting at the feet of the great guru.
argh.
#7 - see #6
I need to quit as blood pressure is rising, but please know that this stuff is warped and wacked and so very typical cerebral N.
Oh, and #9 - he didn't have a CLUE how to explain long division to you. His calc lecture was all a butt-covering smoke screen.
That one is my ex to a T, along with all the rest.
Love,
Hope
-
Dear Iphi,
I have always been able to relate to you so well. Now, I know why. my mother is a cerebral N.
I am so glad that you started a thread.
I have to laugh at point 8.
Your F sounds like an N-- very much so.
My mother was different in her areas of "torment" of me,but the general contemptuous, deprecating and destructive tone were all there.
i have been facing the truth more and more. The upshot is that they are hollow ,zombie-like mannequins. I have almost passed out many.many times in the last month as I was coming to this conclusion. It is horrible for us to have to face that our parent is really a "monster"-- in the sense that a central part of their humanness is GONE(IMO).They don't have empathy
I am reading a book about sociopaths. It says that Sociopaths do not have conscience and empathy. N's do not have empathy.
i am facing the horror of it with my heart. My M is the walking dead(like Vaknin says)
I don't know where you are in the "facing it" process. I hope that I did not upset you by saying these "strong" things.
I was devastated when I first started facing the truth. I still am,but it is getting a little muted.
Keep sharing, Iphi. You have so much to offer Love Ami
-
oh ilphi, this sounds so much like my N father, to the 'T'....i can totally relate to what you've gone through. it's so painful, i know.
this really does sound like a "cerebral N",....something i've thought my father is.
i can especially, especially relate to this:
"4. When I went to college and afterward when I moved away, he didn't ask me if I needed anything or take any interest in that sort of thing at all. He has no interest in my life or doings or concerns and no knowledge of them. On day in high school I was cooking dinner and he was sitting at the kitchen table. I was upset because he never asked me anything about myself or seemed to know anything about me, so I decided to tell him all about my day in great detail. It became clear that he wasn't listening, so at a certain point I included being kidnapped by aliens in my narrative. Eventually he looked furious but never said anything/continued to ignore me. But of course then it was my fault for... doing whatever."
my own father is so like this it's scary...you could totally be describing him.
does your father not ever look at you? whenever i'd try to talk at all, he'd simply not look at me, would interrupt me in the middle of my sentence to change the subject, would hum.....did your father ever do that?
-
Okay, thank god you guys. Thank god. Thank you! I appreciate your posts so much. The process of coming to terms with this has been in stages over years. I've known about N for a year and have been reading and reading, but sometimes I waver back and forth because of all the reasons to excuse him - the illness, my mom's illness putting single parenthood on him, my 'badness' who knows - all kinds of excuses. But previous to that I was in therapy and working on boundaries and enmeshment for some years, but N-ism never came up and it just advances everything light years. The most my therapist ever said regarding my dad was 'the well is dry.' Which is true but... what is it? I thought for a long time his illness blighted him and I worked really hard on trying to reignite his spirit. You know? Didn't go anywhere.
He has constantly had people dedicated to him and supporting him and seems so blind to it. Even my mom, who he has completely exiled, will always ask me 'how's your father' and seems to really care more about his health and well being than her own. And she's schizophrenic living in a group home in straitened circumstances. ok?
Last year I tried sneaking up on the topic with my sister, but she said I need to accept him the way he is and if I quit enraging him then I wouldn't be the target. Message = it is all my fault for not properly supporting and accepting his quirks. It repelled me that she was essentially saying I brought abuse upon myself. I said "okay I fold the towels 'wrong'" - figure of speech for my terrible infractions.
The main thing with me is - certain areas of my life are messed up and give me a lot of distress. It used to be more areas but I've worked hard and things seem to be okay in other ways. But in work and in friendships and in feeling active instead of passive toward life - I'm really incapacitated and paralyzed and I know it is from this - but not how to address it. This has bothered me so much for many years. It's exciting to be so close, but still so intensely distressing.
Must go for now but will be back when I can - hopefully tonight. Thank you again I will read your posts again more - kind of read them emotionally right now, but not in depth.
-
Dear Iphi,
There is so much healing that comes from starting a thread on something that is really bothering you.It seems like this has been really healing for you, already.
I wanted to comment on some things that you said.You feel passive and not active in areas of your life. I so understand that feeling of paralysis.
I do not "think through" simple problems. It reminds me of an alcoholic friend who said, "What do alcoholics do when the air conditioning breaks in their house? The answer---- buy a new house.
I can see that Maria finds solutions to problems in an active way, while I sit with my thumb in my mouth.
Somehow, we ,with N parents, must have gotten paralyzed. I know that I am just beginning to realize that I CAN think as I want to. I never could before.I never could feel, think or perceive. I could just be "frozen".
I am facing the truth about my N mother and how she damaged me very slowly. Actually, I have been in "shock", I went through a month when I was sobbing and feeling faint.
Now, I am mainly really tired-- very tired. Letting go of denial is a physical and emotional process which you can't rush even though you really, really want to.
We can only come out slowly(IME).
MY thoughts and prayers are with you, Iphi. keep sharing,My friend Love Ami
-
(((Iphi)))
I'm so sorry you endure/d that behavior from you father.
I don't think he can do better.... or he would.
-
Dear Iphi,
I want to thank you for sharing all this.
Sat here and stared at it for quite awhile last night and tried to write a thank you... but I was stumped, able only to think of adjectives to describe how I felt at seeing it here - like abashed, stupified, dumbfounded.
Couldn't seem to get past the fear of disintegrating and move on to attempting to recognize how the actual attitudes and manipulations of cerebral N made me feel over a lifetime. As you said... there's that haunting.
Frightened, helpless, needy, weak, small, empty, desperate, lonely, ignorant, unteachable, abandoned, sad, very very nervous... and
starved, really... for acknowledgement as an individual and not just an accessory to the king and/or queen.
Saying it, feeling it... and not disappearing. I think that's the end of the haunting.
((((((Iphi)))))))
Hope
-
Aww Ami, Lighter, CH, CB - thank you. I am going to continue to put more instances out there as time permits (got a couple of projects at work today whereas it has been really quiet until now) and want to invite anyone to also share who wants to. I feel like I am putting items of evidence out to be witnessed. In the past I have confronted my dad on some of these and he has completely denied them and/or stated he has no memory or whatever etc. bah.
I can't tell you how many years it has deeply distressed me that there is this paralysis about me that I don't know what it is or how to get past it. It means so much to be able to put this out there where there is some chance to understand it more deeply. Sometimes I feel like a ghost myself - replaying the same events - but never coming to some deeper or wider place with them - never getting it.
-
Hello Iphi and welcome here!
it still feels at least partly wrong to think he should be responsible for his own behavior, or have responsibilities to people in his family.
I think if you could work through this one, it would really help you.
If it isn't his responsibility to be responsible for his own behaviour.....who's is it? Who can control his behaviour, besides him? (besides, maybe the jail warden : :shock:).
Is he so special that he does not have annnnnnnnny resposibilities? Not even to his family?
Why not? Does getting ill negate our responsibiliities? Would you allow yourself this freedom? Why does he get to be so special?
No need to answer, if you don't wanna Iphi. These are just questions that raced through my head as I read your post and I posted hoping it might help to consider them. If not, pitch the whole thing. NO worries.
Sela
-
Hi Iphi, [and hiiiiii ((((Sela))))! :)]
Iphi I think it's exactly right to think he should be responsible.
The thing is, right or wrong, it won't make any difference, because he doesn't care. And won't change.
I'm so sorry. I loathe him, just reading about him. (And it also makes me realize that my D's father was a cerebral N! I'd always thought he was just very very selfish. Welll, who knows, I guess it's a question of degree...)
love to y'all,
Hops
-
Lived with a cerebral N for three years.............. what a nightmare, so I can associate with much that you write. Bottom line, they are the cleverest, everything is about them, others are only there to serve, if there is a better source of supply anywhere in their orbit you are nothing, you are only something if they can somehow take credit for your achievements, everyone who has any "valuable" attributes is an extention of them........... oh, how I know these creeps. So sorry you have had to endure such a horrible father.
Axa
And they don't change so watch out.
-
Everyone, it means so much to me that you recognize this. The doubt is dead. I will no longer attribute human feelings to him that he has shown no evidence of.
Oops my baby woke up and is starting to cry. Hope to write more tomorrow. Love to you all!
-
Dear Iphi,
If you want to come out of "denial" with a bang ,not a whimper-- read Malignant Self love by Vaknin
I am so happy that you shared about your F. It is a "shock" to see the truth. Your family wants to keep the denial. I guess we all want to keep the denial, in a way. However, at some point ,it smothers us and we are going to die, if we keep it. Then, we must let it go.
I think that you made a big step in starting this thread. Thanks for being there with that very insightful voice Love Ami
-
Dear Iphi,
There's a small thing bothering me and I wondered what you'd think of it.
Since you grew up with the icy detachment and intellectual maneuverings of cerebral N, I supposed that you might relate to the "shut down" which comes into play when it comes to asking questions... just simple things, like asking someone about their job, or plans (o my, never ask N about plans).
For instance, I could never ask for reasons... for any enlightenment re: the thought processes behind what I saw going on in front of me. I don't remember the words ever being said, but the theme - what got planted firmly in my mind - was always: "you couldn't possibly understand".
And just now, I'm seeing yet another aspect of this...
does N drop these little hints... such as, letting it be known in a conversation about something going on in your life, that he/she has an appointment, for instance... and there's this air of mystery (intrigue?)... and you just know that you're supposed to inquire further... but there's a dread attached to it, because if you ask, here will come a lengthy monologue - which never really answers the original question. Does this ring a bell with you, Iphi? These little hints always feel like hooks to me.
Okay, so here's the little current situation...
A close relative has written to me twice now, mentioning that she has started a new employment. The last email, she said that she'd gone in to work a bit "early again, with the purpose of email in mind". (I guess that means - to write to me - and possibly others.) Then she basically says very little else, and closes with, "Well, just this note for today. Going to get started on the coffee..."
Umm... does it seem odd to you that she doesn't just tell me (twice!) what her new job is? It does seem strange to me! Am I supposed to ask because otherwise she'll assume I'm not interested? I feel baited... and toyed with.
Ever since you posted your summary here, Iphi, I've been thinking of so many small things... thank you, again!! But if I wrote them all down, your thread would be 8 pages, at least... :shock: This one was current (just got 2nd email), so just thought I'd put it out there.
Strange how these little things can be so sticky in the mind...
Love,
Hope
-
Please have patience - I am going to try to catch up with this topic and it may take a while and a few posts. First, I'm so glad I posted those items and I plan on posting some more. It feels like I put them down when I put them out here. For many years I covered my father and covered for my father, like the biblical story of drunken Moses. Since I made the first post, I've been thinking about some of the good things he was able to do, and wondering about those. In the future I'm going to try to post those things too. But first things first.
Oh I made an editing mistake in the first post. I meant to say that he came to my college graduation (15 years ago) and my wedding (5 years). He has never been to visit me any other time. At this point I'm glad ("I'm not complaining") but it still just is evidence. Who is this guy who never visits. By the way, if I said to him 'you should come visit me' then I know he would be outraged - take umbrage. This spring I had a baby and he went to his family reunion. I have been so tempted to tax him with that, just to give him a hard time and make him feel 'wrong.' But I'm trying to be better than that. :lol:
Certain Hope - thank you for your point by point posts to the list. I'm sorry it was only too familiar to you. I agree with what you said "What really strikes me is that, taken individually, each of these things might be fairly insignificant...." Yes! I think that is often why it is hard to know how far down the slippery slope you have gone, or how hot the water has become. But if each example listed actually just stands for countless other times it has happened - well, what then.
It wasn't only once or twice that he told me I didn't have diligence or work ethic and was too emotional or 'dramatic.' It was every week, every year. That kind of thing. Also, when after more than 2 decades it has never been your turn then hmmm.
It's funny to think that the dad who I have spent countless hours listening to lecture on all sorts of topics under the sun - might be incapable of actual instruction, actual teaching. But I think you have a point there too, CH. He didn't know how to actually teach long division. This never occurred to me before. I thought he was just bored by my stupidity!
As an aside - it makes me realize something about a distortion of mine. I think if I am not brilliant at once, then it will never happen. Time and again I've stopped myself from trying because I don't think I will be good at something, even if I want to do it. It has not been okay for me to suck unless I don't care at all. So I end up doing things I don't care about, because then it won't twist me up with anxiety that I am not good at whatever it is. I do a job that I found boring right away, but it is soothing to me because there is little anxiety. It's my dad that I am putting in the judge's seat here. Sigh. I often look at other people doing big endeavors and all I can say is - I can't do that. I don't have it. I don't know how. But I wish I did.
I really appreciate about 'sitting at the feet of the great guru.' You understand that I don't even understand that that is wrong. I mean I do, but it hit me like a bolt of lightning how extreme it has been, and it has been extreme - day after day, all the time, ALL THE TIME. That's how conditioned I am.
One of the big things this week has been realizing that I don't know myself. I've been unable to see myself except through him - especially since I have become an adult I've been trying to prove (to him, to me) that I am not how he sees me. Or just trying to avoid thinking about it. But now I know he has never seen me and everything he says about me just has no authority. And he is so irresponsible that he will tell me who I am and he doesn't even know me. So who am I? Clearly listening patiently to him all these years means I am a person who has cultivated a lot of patience and active listening skills. So, there's something I know.
Ami - thank you for you thoughts which are always so straight to the target for me. A few years ago my dad told me how he was riding in the disabled people shuttle service and they arrived at another rider's house. The old man lived in an old house up a long, long flight of steps. The shuttle driver carried the disabled man's chair up all the steps and set it up. Then he came back and carried the man all the way up. And he just did it, no fuss, nothing special, just a job. My dad said the shuttle driver was very gentle and patient. I was blown away that my dad told me this story because -honest to god- it is the first time in my whole life that I have ever heard of my dad appreciating something about another person. Ever. I can't express to you how much has been done for him by how many that he seems to have not noticed and finally he noticed somebody doing something. I still can't believe he noticed that - as far as I am concerned that is the closest to a moment of grace that he has ever had, that I know about. So no, I don't believe he has any empathy yet, but maybe it is a glimmer. Maybe next life, you know?
NMMG - I remember you shared the wacked out, threatened stuff your dad said when your sister was in the hospital and I have to say - I believe your dad is worse than mine, but they are in the same zip code. My dad looks at me as part of his wise teacher persona - as part of his role. Or in public he will look at me like a benevolent ruler hearing the humble request of his subject. And then he also looks at me when he is raging, or when he is brewing up a rage - like a very unpleasant expression like I disgust and repel him and you know where that is headed. But you know, I'm very trained. I don't try to tell long stories and generally do this whole active listening/intelligent question (shows I'm paying attention) thing. But you know, he is in his best mood at those times so usually I am happy to keep him happy. As a teen I sometimes was like 'shut up god yak yak yak!' but I felt that I was at fault and it was my personal problem that I was not more patient, so I worked on myself. I have always agreed with my dad's self-pity (enabler stuff) that he has had a hard time and have worked hard on stuff to make him happy/ me being unselfish. Yeah it's a laugh.
S+S - thank you too for going point by point - those specific remarks really help me and it makes me recognize I have certain 'ways' I see these things. It's so refreshing to hear other ways! And YES he uses intelligence as a continual superiority thing. He is ALWAYS the TEACHER. It is like playing 'School' in hell.
I agree - we are tools of their self-gratification. I think at my graduation he was impatient because he was not being gratified. I do think he gave me a card and we did go to lunch with my extended family after - but then it was like 'hurry up, you selfish thing.' But of course it was not just on that occasion that he is hurrying me up, just the mentioned one. He needs to be gratified practically all the time. No one could gratify him as much as he needs to be gratified.
This is long. Is there a word limit? I will continue in another post.
-
S+S - yes growing up feeling very stupid in the house of the star. Yes. I hope you will talk more about that with me. This is a major area of passivity and despair for me. I like to do learning oriented, intellectual things but it's all really crushed. I have not recovered.
Thank you for your words on people with disabilties still being people and only some being mature souls. Probably you can understand that the disability itself makes it very hard to take up an issue with someone, especially because he uses his disability as an excuse. He uses it in many ways and it has seemed to me that his real disability is not his physical one. I mean it was clear something was wrong before I knew about NPD, but I didn't know what or why. The main thing I didn't understand is that he is going to stay that way, doing the maddening things he does.
Thanks for giving me the props on being caring. I'm not so sure myself if I am, or *why* I am, but it's nice to hear!
Ami - I wonder how can we go after the passivity/paralyzation issue? I don't even know how to talk about it. Somehow when I read about your mother I feel like she has malice though I don't think you ever specifically said so and maybe am reading things in where they are not. I think my dad just has... entitlement or something. It's true he is an eater, but he is an eater who has always had NS to eat. I think definitely always.
CH - you said it - acknowledgment as an individual and no just an accessory to the king or queen. Oh indeedy. Thank you for expressing what the feelings are of being in that environment.
CB123 - I'm so sorry your kids have experienced such frustrating, crazymaking stuff. It's really terrible for them, I know. But it is a huge advantage that they have you as a mom, and not just because of your love and ability to see and appreciate them, but because you know about NPD and can point them toward that knowledge. That's huge. It must be so frustrating watching those interactions, too. I can't imagine how it would be to watch your ex teaching math. Ugh! Also, it really helps me so much that you affirm his behavior with the kids. My dad always wanted to do kid things that he wanted to do. Recently a co-worker was telling me how they let their kids pick an activity to do on the weekend, from a short list of activities, and they do what the kids pick. Hey - eureka! And yet, I feel like I am complaining unfairly because he did spend time with us, even if it was always completely on his terms. Even activities that seemed to the public like they might be 'for us' were actual chosen by him.
It's actually unthinkable until right this minute that I could pick an activity and expect a parent (not MY parent) to do the activity, in good spirit, and enjoy my company. I mean, that kind of giving is completely foreign to my experience (though I have a lot of company in that, here).
Keep your hat on because I have lots more stuff to exorcise and who knows - might be familiar to your kids also.
Sela - your clarity on his responsibility to be responsible for himself - just cut through all the fuzz. I am keeping your post and I want to pick it out as a separate topic. It's like a cool wind blowing away smoke. Why does he get to be so special indeed? It has been completely mushy and co-dependent. Not so much recently because now I avoid him and duck 'tasks' he would like me to do. But I would say that in younger years his responsibility was my responsibility. I cannot overstate how invested I was in having a 'normal' family. Someone recently posted about being 'an accomplice' and I believe in many ways I was, under heavy pressure. Anyway, I'm definitely not pitching your post - I love it. It deserves a separate topic.
Hopalong - I think you are the first person I ever met who loathes my dad. Very refreshing! In real life he's got a lot of charm and does not seem overbearing. Even in a wheelchair he always has women interested in him. He likes to keep them in attendance, but not up close and in a position to be a hassle. Typical!
axa - my idea of real hell would be to actually be romantically involved with a cerebral N (well, any variety of N really) - I am deeply sorry.
authentic - is your dad is awful and if I understood another post of yours correctly, he sexually abused you. I hope you are NC with him.
lupine - welcome - it is therapeutic so far. I hope you will share more when the spirit moves you
ami - I've read parts of malignant self love online, but part of my mind was saying 'maybe not my dad' - but I will do it again. I have trouble holding certain ideas in my consciousness. I can believe he would sacrifice my wellbeing through his relentless self-gratification, but there are some other things I cannot hold. I'll post that stuff later when there is a chance.
-
Take as many to-be-continueds as you like, Iphi... patiently absorbing here.
This has been my distortion, too: "As an aside - it makes me realize something about a distortion of mine. I think if I am not brilliant at once, then it will never happen. Time and again I've stopped myself from trying because I don't think I will be good at something, even if I want to do it. It has not been okay for me to suck unless I don't care at all. So I end up doing things I don't care about, because then it won't twist me up with anxiety that I am not good at whatever it is. I do a job that I found boring right away, but it is soothing to me because there is little anxiety. It's my dad that I am putting in the judge's seat here. Sigh. I often look at other people doing big endeavors and all I can say is - I can't do that. I don't have it. I don't know how. But I wish I did."
Just beginning to see things with new eyes... and a mindset that doesn't automatically condemn me to ineptitude.
Hugs,
Hope
P.S. I think that was Noah who got drunk.
-
Iphi,
You feel a void where your father should have been - and there's this "stand-in" who looks like a father, sometimes even acts like one, but, really isn't one.
Yes, this is an N. Real, loving caring relationships are reciprocal. If this person were not your father, you'd have no reason to ever contact him again, yes?
But, he's your "father', so, there he is, in your life, whether you like it or not.
For whatever reason, he is stunted in his ability to love, have empathy, and truly care about others.
We all get caught up in this thought, "But, I am truly remarkable, loving, a GRAND and wonderful daughter. Surely, I can change him into being a kind, gentle, loving soul."
NOT happening.
It's not your fault. Somewhere deep in his past, he was neglected and left for a stub of a person.
I had the same thing!
My father died in 1998. Before his death, I sent him a card with a girl playing a violin on the front. (I used to play violin as a girl). Loving, kind, forgiving words for him inside. All he said was, "my that reminds me of Patty." (MY SISTER!)
Lordy, lordy. We want to be recognized as special, but they are just not capable.
I'm sorry you have these experiences where fatherly love should be. You are patient, kind, humorous and loving. Look for relationships elsewhere that will cherish and motivate you to be even more loving and giving. Whenever I tried to do anything to nurture my relationship with my father, it somehow backfired. He didn't need me. Didn't want me. Didn't really have any interest whatsover in me, except that I could cause him money catastrophes or embarrassment in some way. Very too bad. I have to say to myself now it was his loss. We could have shared so many things.
Love,
Dandylife
-
For instance, I could never ask for reasons... for any enlightenment re: the thought processes behind what I saw going on in front of me. I don't remember the words ever being said, but the theme - what got planted firmly in my mind - was always: "you couldn't possibly understand".
And just now, I'm seeing yet another aspect of this... does N drop these little hints... such as, letting it be known in a conversation about something going on in your life, that he/she has an appointment, for instance... and there's this air of mystery (intrigue?)... and you just know that you're supposed to inquire further... but there's a dread attached to it, because if you ask, here will come a lengthy monologue - which never really answers the original question. Does this ring a bell with you, Iphi? These little hints always feel like hooks to me.
Okay, so here's the little current situation...
A close relative has written to me twice now, mentioning that she has started a new employment. The last email, she said that she'd gone in to work a bit "early again, with the purpose of email in mind". (I guess that means - to write to me - and possibly others.) Then she basically says very little else, and closes with, "Well, just this note for today. Going to get started on the coffee..."
Umm... does it seem odd to you that she doesn't just tell me (twice!) what her new job is? It does seem strange to me! Am I supposed to ask because otherwise she'll assume I'm not interested? I feel baited... and toyed with.
Hi CH! Well, your post reminds me of a couple of different ways things go in my FOO. My dad will talk about appointments and tests or about physical therapy or mention some clinical study he is volunteering in or new medication he is taking, but also hold back details of diagnosis or plans or prospects. I believe it is because he wants to 'control' that information. So I never ask about those things. If he didn't want to control it he would probably mention that information at some point, but he never does. I also do not have any contact information for his doctors or any other sensible type stuff like that. He has never said anything about giving that to me or my sister and I have never asked. Control again. Sometimes I have felt I 'should' ask, but it was way too scary to do so (the probable results of that).
A lot to think about. I think the dread for me is reserved for a baited hook which I believe will lead to a rage or contempt. I mean there are other things that I believe will lead to a length monologue, but I just sort of gird my loins and ask the expected question and tune out except for the occasional 'oh wow' or 'that's so great.'
I'm trying something new recently though, where I do not offer any information. I make him do almost all the work and only answer direct questions briefly. So my advice is don't ask about her new job, just say 'that's great good to hear you are enjoying life' or some general thing. See if she can stand not telling you. :twisted:
-
Thank you so very much, yet again, Iphi. Reading back through what I wrote here this morning, I just think you did really well in making sense of it! Much of this stuff is still encased in a "little me" who doesn't recognize what's wrong with it... just senses it's not right.
And you did ! You got it... exactly what I was trying to express... and more! What you said about your Dad holding back details is exactly the same with my mother... and I do believe it is about control. She's very vague... will toss out tidbits here and there, but never just give the whole scoop, straight up. Gives me chills as I recognize some of the ways I've mimicked her in years past, thinking that's how it's to be done.. for the sake of managing things in an orderly fashion. Now I see - withholding knowledge is nothing but another smokescreen.
My main desire now is to remedy any residual "ways" of hers under which I may be operating, so that I won't pass that crud on to my children.
Also, I want to address some of this with my oldest two daughters who are now making homes of their own and on whom I am certain to have unloaded some of that residue :?
Talking this through here with you helps.
Today in my kitchen, cooking away... I was thinking of how my mother never really taught me to cook anything. It was all so complicated and had to be done "just so". Well, I used to chalk that up to her perfectionistic, compulsive ways... but then this afternoon, some pieces started to fall into place. I remembered an incident where she'd made some bread stuffing and I'd seen the "stove top" boxes in the rubbish. Someone complimented her on the dressing and asked about the recipe. She gave some brief reply and I saw that momentary flash of anger on her face - - - that person who asked broke a cardinal rule - ask nothing!! Everything is so top secret! She wouldn't just say it was from a box. Would not. And we're not talking plain old garden-variety pride here... that flash of anger tells the tale. So I think that's why she wouldn't teach me how to cook... she would not let me in on her secrets or shortcuts... even in the simplest of things.
She must have viewed me as competition.
Good grief. Lord knows she hated it when I grew up to be a decent cook... especially when I'd make something just the way my dad liked it, not stingy with the meat or cheese, as she is... always holding back, making it a bit less than what she knows would be the favorite.
Again, I could go on and on... but I won't.
Such a little thing, next to all the many big things she left unsaid and unaddressed, unattended to.. like my identity, my hopes, my life.
There was plenty of muttering in my kitchen today, over so many other negligible loads of hooey with which I allowed my brain to be stuffed. A legend in her own mind, she is, but not in mine any longer.
By the way, she doesn't rage, but her disdain and contempt are withering... at least they were to the "me that was".
So far, I haven't thought of any examples of her actually baiting the hook, but then I think she's an 8-something on the N'ish scale... and then, of course, I was her "accessory" until I moved too far away to fill that role. Quite a distance to toss a line these days.
Dear Iphi... you don't have to try to reply to all this... I know it's minor stuff, but it's the sort of stuff I can piece together without drowning in the bigger swamp... and it's good for me to put it down here, I think.
Yesterday was her birthday. I sent a card, but mailed it late. My husband and I signed it... no letter enclosed. No information.
Told my kids about the upcoming day, but they didn't make a card to send.
I don't push them to anymore. They do seem to know that she's a fraud.
Oh, about that other relative... thank you for your advice! I didn't ask her specifically about her new job, but I did ask whether she felt she'd been there long enough yet (about 5 weeks) to know whether she'd want to do it long-term... or was she going to play that by ear.
I hope that wasn't a dysfunctional question :? I really don't know anymore.
I do know that she's involved with Codependency support groups, so maybe her not volunteering any info was her way of dealing with detaching from the outcome of whether or not I'd be interested. Sheesh... gets so that nobody knows what's okay to say and what's not.
Scrambles my brain.
((((((((Iphi)))))))
Much love,
Hope
P.S. to Dandylife... I am so sorry you're dad didn't have the awareness of what a lovely daughter you are. My dad probably would have said the girl reminded him of my youngest daughter... we're special to him because we're "his", not because he really knows either one of us. Hugs to you.
-
NoMore, "dad would not look at" you.
CertainHope, "dad would not slow down" for children...
.
My N (and otherwise demented) husband, has the biggest issue with eye contact of anyone I've ever met! He will talk to you while staring beyond you, and only momentarily glace at your eyes and then back off into the distance again. Or, he will close his eyes intermittently, which makes me wonder if there is some schizophrenia in him (closed eyes are a sign of that).
NH also will NOT slow down enough for me to walk beside him. The children built up their leg muscles just from learning to not be dragged along by this self-centered, driven man. He will brag about how "strong their legs got" as some sort of justification of him doing this to them. He will tell me "exercise is good for you. Learn to stretch those legs, dear!"
I know it's ungodly to HATE people, but I come VERY CLOSE at times with this creature.
~Laura
PS. Kay used to just make "digs" at me, insinuating that she wanted to take me sight-seeing, but she knew it would be too hard on me because of MY WEIGHT!
-
Hi Hope,
I often think the not-answering-simple-questions thing might sometimes be:
I am too special to divert my special train of special thought to address myself to a gnagging gnat.
Ohitmakesmegritmyteeth,
Hops
-
Hi Hope,
I often think the not-answering-simple-questions thing might sometimes be:
I am too special to divert my special train of special thought to address myself to a gnagging gnat.
Ohitmakesmegritmyteeth,
Hops
Hops,
I know.. gives me cold chills. I was trying to think of an example, but it'd be impossible to type up.. you'd have to be sitting here with me so I could talk with my hands... lol :?
You know, sometimes I'm not prepared to give my kids a yes or no when they ask about something... but I always give them a time when I'll have an answer for them.. and, when possible, I explain to them what the answer depends upon (someone else's concerns, for instance). But this goes so far beyond yes-es and no-s. And another thing!!! .... making everything so daggone complicated is what makes her feel so speshul, so unless you support the entire illusion by listening to an hour-long monologue, you may as well count yourself off the "need to know" list. Heaven forbid you might suggest a - gulp - simple solution to one of her many complex dilemmas.
Oh, I saw someplace on the board that your brother had appeared on the scene, unannounced. I hope he's gone and you're able to enjoy the rest of your weekend, as much as possible!
Hugs,
Hope
-
Right...thanks, Hope and thank you, was it oh pooh I'm sorry, been just quick=peeks here this weekend, but meanwhile...
Yep, he's here. We're fine. He's leaving in the morning. These are the subtle things that bug me although on the surface all is calm:
--he did not call ME to tell me he was coming. I just happened to be off work yesterday when he called (to talk to Mom's day-sitter)...or I would have had no idea. I would have come home to find him here. I believe he still triangulates and would have pumped our day-helper for info. I resent it. I live with my mother and have full responsibility for her, but he tends to disregard my role. Even with his phone call, I had just 2 hours warning that he would be here for 2 nights. (As long as Mom is alive, he feels free to come unannouned whenever he likes. That I live here, and have for 8 years, is irrelevant.)
--I do not feel comfortable leaving him alone in the house with my private belongings and papers (ever since the huge invasion of my privacy--invading my computer, forwarding himself private letters and lying about it--a few years ago). So when he decides to come, my plans are cancelled. (For my own comfort).
--He snoops, so I am staying in my space and keeping my radar up.
--He stays up all night, so I find it hard to relax. He slept until 4:00 today, and will be up all night again.
He has been nice, cooked us a meal. And all very polite, etc. But I don't feel the old wiring I have from childhood will ever be fully fixed. I can tell he is a lonely person (he's on the road a great deal) and comes here for a sense of "returning home". I won't begrudge him any visits with Mom, and I'm glad for her to see him.
But the bottom line is, I don't especially like him (he's very right wing, obsessed with guns and Fox News, and we have nothing in common but blood relation). And I do not like the thought that he feels free to come w/o warning, especially when the subtext is a "surprise" visit. It's as though he were checking up on a nursing home! So he finds Mom cheerful, well cared for and so forth. I wish he'd behave respectfully but he obviously won't. On the surface, all's well. And he hasn't entered my study since I confronted him that time.
After Mom is gone, if I can afford to stay here, I will change the locks. I'll tell him he may visit but not without asking me when's a good time.
Nerves on edge,
Hops
-
Dear Hops,
My thoughts and prayers are with you. I am sorry that you you have such a painful relationship with your brother.((((((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))))))))))) Love Ami
-
Oh dear Hops,
What a bundle of miserable feelings is stirred by his enormous sense of entitlement :?
I used to be at the beck and call of a thoughtless, disrespectful brother.
Best counsel... "As much as it depends on you, live at peace with all men."
And keep your study locked.
Love and hugs,
Hope
-
Hops,
Sorry you had an unannounced visit. I did not realise it at the time but now I know XN snopped everywhere, knows everything about my financial position etc... what a creep. It is terrible that you have to be on guard in your own home.
Really me
Know the lack of eye contact thing. People used to comment to me all the time the fact that XN would address them and even turn his head in another direction. I was one of the few people he could have eye contact with but that depended on the situation. When he was grooming me in the beginning, and towards the end when he was being particularily vicious. I used to tell him I hated his "dead eye look".......... still gives me the creeps when I think of it. You know the saying the eyes are the gateway to the soul, guess if you have no soul you need to hide your eyes.
As for the unanswered questions........... wow. Announcements would be made, no discussion. Bits of information would be dropped in the midst of a conversation when challenged he would shut down. He drip fed info or made throw away comments, I think he could not resist the game of creating confusion and uncertainty. He loved this so much seeing me struggling with trying to understand what he was saying but withholding information. Thank God all that is gone.
Where there is confusion there is abuse............really believe this one.
axa
-
P.S. I think that was Noah who got drunk.
Oops CH, my bad. :shock: :lol:
I hope you are recovered from your brother's visit Hops. He sounds boundaryless and entitled to the Nth degree, if you'll pardon the pun.
The reason I pretended so hard that my family was functional was because I needed to believe it. You know what? They never even wanted to be functional, in actuality. It was not even an item on my dad's agenda, ever. It beggars my abilities to even attempt to describe the ongoing make-believe that went on. :? Instead of actually doing something or learning something, it seems around my house we would just make-believe it is so.
I was not exempt from this complete folly. I was making believe that my dad loved us and that his being our single parent proved it, because otherwise he would have just left. I don't even understand why he stayed, but I suspect it was for reasons of weakness or parasitism, not strength or principle.
I wasn't able to post this weekend, too busy to write anything lengthy, but what has hit me the hardest is all these memories of my dad mocking me. From earliest childhood up to, say, this past year. He finds my emotions, my perceptions, my opinions, observations, expressions - just laughable. He is endlessly patronizing.
I've been reading books about boundaries and thinking about productive confrontation. It forces me to admit that I have tried again and again over many years to have boundaries and to productively confront my dad. He will not allow it. He's one of those who rampages across a boundary. And the times I have confronted him, even in the calmest most oblique way including all sorts of flattery and soothing, lead to giant blow ups. Also, he fights dirty. I mean he says hateful personal things and he always accuses me of evil motives. This has always worked on me, so that I capitulate and end up trying to prove I am not evil. Total victory.
I would never have bothered to turn over the rock and look at the creepy crawlies underneath if I was not SO stuck in my professional life and running into trouble with my friendships. I must have clarity here and want so much to overcome the obstacles.
I would never have reviewed the entire 37 year history of my dad making fun of me, not to mention raging at me, and me accepting it. I see now that I can never have a voice that he will accept. And he will never be happy for me for having any 'voice.' And that he will come back at me with everything he has - total thermonuclear war.
I never do that to him. He has always done that to me.
Again and again I've tried to make the most of the positives, but it doesn't make the negative go away. I don't think I can live with the negative.
Also, it makes me see that I must give up on my extended family. No one has ever taken me aside. No one has ever sought to develop an independent relationship with me. No one has ever said anything positive to me. If it has not happened now, it will not happen.
I've been trying to make my dad right in my mind, trying to make him okay, by saying there must be some legitimate reason he has treated me this way. I've been saying his point of view is valid. But it is not. He is deeply dishonest.
I don't want my son to see how my father treats me.
I feel like my well being and success could actually kill my dad. Is that magical thinking? He acts like it hurts him. Is the magical thinking his?
-
Also, this all reminds me of how I just wanted to die for so long. Not anymore. But for a long time. And that living with my dad - it felt like being deep underwater - heavy, heavy. Every motion and thought took so much effort.
I used to cry all the time, but in secret so that he wouldn't make fun of me or rage at me. I would cry at night, soundlessly. Or I would go out for a drive and cry. I didn't connect it to him - my crying - the situation leading up to the crying - because he was always to be held blameless and not responsible. I felt my anguish was a sign of my weakness and inability to self-sacrifice.
This is hard to talk about.
-
Dear Iphi. I was where you are about two months ago. I was facing the SAME ,horrible truths about my M. I was in shock. I don't know if you are,but I "looked "like a person who was in' shock".
Iphi, it is simply, very,very hard. What we thought of as "reality" is crumbling. We are alone and like newborn babies. We have to let go of most our our thinking . It feels raw and very, very sad.
I spent 3 weeks sobbing.
I don't know where you are-- in your emotions --right now-- but I will help you in whatever way that I can..
Maybe, you will not react as strongly as I did. I was in very, very deep denial. Also, I was in denial about my H, too. So, I had to climb out of deep holes. Hopefully, your's is not as deep or longstanding.
I understand ,Iphi. I am so, so sorry that you did not have a Dad who could appreciate your unique and wonderful qualities. I can hear them on the board.((((((((((IPHI))))))))))) Love Ami
-
iDear Iphi,
Do you have physical problems like stomach aches , yeast infections etc from stuffing the pain of your father. I put it in my body-- that is why am asking? Ami
-
Hi Ami - I have not been in as deep as you. It seems what I have been trying to do is hold two different versions of the truth in my head at the same time.
The first time I went to therapy was when I was 16 and had been clinically depressed and flunking out of school. At that time I would not talk about my dad or my relationship with my dad at all. I would talk about my issues only in relation to myself. That's what I mean about covering for him and excusing him from responsibility. I wouldn't say "my dad says I only overly emotional." I would say "I feel guilty and ashamed that I am overly emotional."
When I was 27 I went again and did talk about my dad, but kept invested in the idea that if I changed myself and solved the problem that was me then the relationship would improve. I decided and said in therapy that he was a 'good enough' dad. But how can a dad who made fun of my needs and called them selfish, who ignores me and always has, who only calls when he wants something, and who forces me to do things that I am again, and who rages at me, be a good enough dad?
If I could have overcome my smoking, social anxiety, my personal inability to move forward in certain important ways, my tendency to do things for others before they ask (like this enabling streak), my confusion over what is a quality friendship, sadness in investing in some people who dumped me, and the paralysis and fear I feel at the idea of championing myself or believing that I have something valuable to contribute - then I would not go here.
It's like I am living in a crime scene and have been refusing to investigate. But I have been working on my own life steadily forever. Remember I have a double whammy in that my mom is schizophrenic. Since my dad had little knowledge of my life, I've been minding my own business in many ways for a long time.
Also, my physical symptoms usually happen when I am near my dad. When I visit I tend to get the flu or a bad cold. I have not visited in 2 years and plan to limit exposure in the future. I will keep my husband and son with me, will meet away from dad's place, meet in public, whatever.
I did used to get some yeast infections, but I eat a lot of plain yogurt now and haven't had one since that dietary change. There is no link that I have identified in that respect.
The main problem I have is agonizing stomach pain. It hasn't been so bad in recent years. I have strengthened myself and also I avoid situations that bring it on. The stomach pain is definitely FOO stuff, but it has expanded out into situations with me in the world in my own life.
Sigh. I don't know. Sometimes we have benign conversations about finances, politics, the weather....
-
Dear Iphi,
My problem is "stomach" issues ,also. I am reading an inner child book 'Healing your Aloneness" by Chopich. It says that your inner child resides in your solar plexus( stomach).
I will write more later . Iphi-- you are on the right track to healing(IMO) , my Friend. Love Ami
-
Thank you for your posts Ami. I would be interested to hear more about the Chopich book when you have read it and have some time to describe it.
-
I would never have bothered to turn over the rock and look at the creepy crawlies underneath if I was not SO stuck in my professional life and running into trouble with my friendships. I must have clarity here and want so much to overcome the obstacles.
Dear Iphi,
This is how I feel, too... I mean, I kicked over the rock after NPD-ex, but never dug around beneath.
I could make sense of the hows and ways he turned me inside out, but even with all the love and care of my husband now, I was still finding myself involved in friendships where I was absorbing other peoples' stuff like a sponge. Also, with my own children... I could see the need to revise boundaries and set them a much healthier example. Clarity. Amen!
Again and again I've tried to make the most of the positives, but it doesn't make the negative go away. I don't think I can live with the negative.
Me, too... to make the most of the positives in them and in myself. And then recently, in examining the negative, what I've found is that... becoming more aquainted with the negative in "them" doesn't influence me for the positive... in fact, just the opposite.... and I don't want to dissolve in anger and bitterness. So the way I'm viewing it now is... my life is still my choice, as it was years ago... only then, I didn't realize that I had a choice. So... NOW is a whole lot better than then. Ignorance is not bliss.
I don't want my son to see how my father treats me.
This is a very valid concern, dear Iphi... the less impact N has on anyone, the better... especially your precious son. And if your father is effecting you, that will impact your son, as well. You both deserve to be N-free.
I feel like my well being and success could actually kill my dad. Is that magical thinking? He acts like it hurts him. Is the magical thinking his?
This stunned me... maybe it is a sort of magical thinking, but on N's part.
For NPD, the loss of control and power seems to have the "incredible shrinking N" effect.
This was a very palpable reality while with my mother last month, as she seemed to wither before my eyes. I felt sorry for her. Several times, I sensed her trying to rally and exert her lifelong style of "empress of the chalet"... but there was no one to dominate. Her audience is gone.
They live in a 2-story A-frame cedar house (not a home). She's always referred to it as "The Chalet". Lord knows, the thought of her makes me nauseous.
I keep trying to think... well, maybe she was "shy" too, and spent a lifetime over-compensating. But once you've seen that bitter envy, there's no doubting it. It's N.
I do think they grow more benign with advanced age. My mother is 81. But Iphi, I don't know how thick a skin it takes to tolerate them in the meanwhile.
Love,
Hope
-
Dear Iphi,
I am so very sorry.
Realizing that your father is NPD after assimilating your mom's schizophrenia disease is the equivalent of being orphaned.
It must be very painful and you are so strong to be facing it anyway. Very strong.
I hope for new attachments and new family of choice to fill in all the yearning spaces in your heart.
Hops
-
Dear Iphi,
I think that our healing lies in the "inner child" .The book that I am reading now is "Healing Your aloneness by Chopich. I just ordered the workbook and another book tonight.
Inside us is a child that is screaming with pain. It comes out in physical and emotional problems. The key to a good life ( according to them and it does seem true) is to get that connection between the inner loving adult( us at our best) and the inner child( our poor , abused, buried emotions).
Today, as I was at the gym, I tried to listen to my inner child. She told me things that I did not realize before. One was that I am comparing myself too much to other people( who had good mothers). I look at my life as hopeless when I look at people who have good mothers. I feel worthless, hopeless, helpless and paralyzed. I fee like,"Why bother, I have so much to overcome just to get near "normal".So, I feel like "Why even try?I am so far behind people my age."I am embarrassed and just want to give up.My inner child feels like I have given up on her.
This was just my experience today but it was very enlightening,Iphi.I feel a hope that I can become whole with the inner child methods Love Ami
-
Awww CH - ((((CH)))) I am sorry that bringing up this topic is bringing up stuff for you too. I hope it is within a space of safety and health and not challenging you too much in a bad way. I agree that ignorance is not bliss: instead it is slavery. I've been also reading about your ex on the other topics and am in awe of your hard-won strength.
I think the shyness topic gives me a lot of insight about the roadblocks that I can't seem to get past. It's as if without nurture one runs out of fuel at certain challenges. I was reading a book recently that made the same point. It said that to take the risks to reach your potential, you need a well of support from your relationships or else you will have nothing to fall back upon, and nothing to draw upon. Made sense to me. I feel that where I have been stuck is in running out of fuel. Pretending my dad wasn't disordered, was quirky or good enough, meant I was refusing to acknowledge I needed real fuel and real relationships - because there was 'nothing wrong with my relationships.' I refused to see and failed to learn and got stuck. I think that 'fake it til you make it' can be very good advice in the right context, but believe me, I have discovered some real limitations to it. You can't run on fumes and you can't deny when you are out of gas. For a long time, it seemed to me I could only get fuel from my dad and wanted to know - why was he withholding it?? know what I mean?
You asked me a few days ago if my dad withholds information and at first I was blank on that. Then yesterday it came to me - of course he does! Oh my gosh! I will tell you the tale in another post, hopefully if I have time and the baby doesn't wake up.
CH wrote: For NPD, the loss of control and power seems to have the "incredible shrinking N" effect. This was a very palpable reality while with my mother last month, as she seemed to wither before my eyes. I felt sorry for her. Several times, I sensed her trying to rally and exert her lifelong style of "empress of the chalet"... but there was no one to dominate. Her audience is gone.
They live in a 2-story A-frame cedar house (not a home). She's always referred to it as "The Chalet". Lord knows, the thought of her makes me nauseous.
The chalet, eh? :P Brainwave - maybe for these Ns - keeping us down really is life and death to them? I don't know. I find that when my dad is clearly weak and etc., then I feel very much pity and compassion for him - which is really not helpful most of the time. It's not good when the other person is fighting dirty like a rabid animal, and you are feeling all bad for their plight. kwim?
Thanks Hops you are a kind heart. I have long been reconciled to the lack of maternal presence in my life, but I put all the money on red and spun the wheel, so to speak. I doubled down on dad. Happily, fact is I do have a marriage that rejoices me, brings me stability and motivation, makes me grateful, and has given me the courage to confront these other areas. It really made me feel that to live seriously is worth it, whereas previously there were some wilderness years where I just floated along, basically working all the time and spending time with people doing what they wanted to do - it was all about them - what I did best. I do have some good-will friendships too, that have lasted a decade and more. I lost a group of college friends a few years ago when they dumped me and it certainly became clear to me that I needed to take a look at who I was being with and how I was being with them. So on the whole things are on the up and up. It was much worse when I wasn't able to get free of my dad in real life - now mainly it is in my own head.
-
Ami - this work sounds really interesting and vital to me. I think it is crucial to keep faith with ourselves. I feel that every time I knuckled under to my dad and let him mistreat me, I broke faith with myself. The pressure was high, the right path was unclear to me, but it was the wrong choice - perhaps because I did not understand how important responsibility is. Now the work is to fix what was broken and I do believe that no work is ever wasted, especially work that is accomplished within us, rather than in the world where time erases all things.
A lot of people with good parents still get messed up somehow. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)
-
RM,
About husband's lack of eye contact. This is also associated with asperbers and autism.
CH,
As I read about your friend who emailed about her new job but only mentioned mundane things like early emails and making coffee, it made me think that maybe she really doesn't have a job (for whatever reason) and that she is ashamed to say so. Just a thought.
tt
Iphi, I'm reading along. Good, interesting and informative thread.
tt
-
A few days ago CH wrote
I supposed that you might relate to the "shut down" which comes into play when it comes to asking questions... just simple things, like asking someone about their job, or plans (o my, never ask N about plans).
This took me a while. I will try to describe a couple of situations.
1. My dad says he would like to go to the grocery store and to have me drive. Okay. We drive to the store. When we get there, I follow behind him with the cart. He goes to produce and throws the produce over his shoulder into the cart, looking in my general direction in a contemptuous way as if I am too worthless to hand the oranges to. Next, I offer to fetch some items while he chooses others. He ignores this. We get to the top of Aisle 2. He pulls out a sheaf of coupons. He looks at each coupon, and at the sign for the aisle. Finally, when all the coupons for products on Aisle 2 are set aside, he puts the sheaf back in his pocket. He holds up the relevant coupons. He explains to me that the first coupon is for coffee beans. He hands it to me. Then he explains to me that the second coupon is for coffee filters. He hands it to me. The next coupon is for a certain brand of tea, not the decaffeinated kind.
Repeat at the top of each aisle. Then we pay and go to the car and approach the intersection. He tells me to turn left at the light. But wait, home is straight ahead through the light. What could the plan be? He cannot tell me. Only, turn left at the light. So I turn left at the light. We proceed down the street. Turn right at the next light. And etcetera. Finally we end up in a parking lot of another shopping center and he directs me to a parking space. Eventually it becomes clear that we are here to find - some item or other.
You can bet I try at various points to suggest alternatives and try to get some information, but remember that if I push it too far then there is a rage. And the rage is not about him not wanting to answer the question, it will be about how selfish I am that I can't even drive my poor dad to the grocery store, or some other complete distraction maneuver.
It doesn't only happen to me. Once my sister took him to one store to purchase one mailbox. Five hours and 6 stores later, they returned to the first store and bought the original mailbox after having scrutinized every single mailbox for sale in a 20 mile radius. Ok? :shock: I'm just so glad I wasn't along for that trip.
Edited to add: P.S. the shopping trip I am describing happened when I was 23. I know it might be misleading since every coupon had to be specially explained to me. You may not believe this either, but I have a reasonably high IQ. :lol:
-
Dear Iphi,
What hit me as I read your post was that your father wanted power and control. That was the "theme" of the all the situations. I never saw the N behavior quite so clearly as when you described these situations.I have heard the "words' power and control, of course, but I never "saw" how they operated so clearly.
I got such a profound insight in to what makes the N tick.
The situations may be different but it is all about exerting power and control------ right down to the coffee bean.
Iphi, you are really doing well facing all these truths.
Even though you may not see it, your father did not dim your beautiful light, Iphi Love Ami
-
Oh, Iphi... I do know what you mean by running on fumes to the point of an empty tank. And thank you for the hugs... (((((Iphi))))) they are so much a part of my life now. With my children, my husband... I feel like I don't ever want to miss an opportunity to hug each of them and show them how special they are to me. It really impressed me when we were with my parents last month that we hugged each other when we left for home...
now that we're 1,000 miles away, I guess my mother can spare one.
This is the first time in my entire life that I've felt myself within a space of health and safety. Ever. I guess that's why it's taken so long for this rubbish to come to the surface. I know it was always there... my busy-ness with raising my own children, and then the various turmoils and npd, and my later drinking... all that masked it. But there were times when it would pop... at the births of my babies... I didn't want my mother there. That was a very strong feeling... keep her away. So many things... all under cover.
And yet, through the most difficult years, I trusted my mother to share with her the struggles I faced where my childrens' dad was concerned. Now I see that word "trusted"... and it does not fit. It's not that I trusted her at all. It's that she was the only person in the world with whom I knew how to relate.
That is pathetic. I say that with clarity and not with anger or even deep hurt... more of a putting into place that last piece of the puzzle - the magic piece - which lifts the fog from the entire scene and brings it clearly into view.
She taught me to trust no one but her and if I doubted her perspective... I was to find myself motherless.
It is exactly as you wrote, Iphi - this "meant I was refusing to acknowledge I needed real fuel and real relationships - because there was 'nothing wrong with my relationships.' I refused to see and failed to learn and got stuck."
Until I met the male version of my mother in NPD ex and spent 3 years living with the wizard of word salad...
you know, sometimes I wonder whether I'll ever run out of rant.
Anyhow, I am thankful. Very thankful, to see the real picture.
They don't withhold fuel. WE are their fuel. They are human siphons.
I doubt whether I could maintain pity for their plight if I had to deal with them on a regular basis, Iphi. As it is, takes the grace of God to hold me in check. I don't know what I'm supposed to do with all this knowledge... as far as they are concerned, I mean. Because it's not just my mother... it's my dad who has been her symbiotic... whatever... for all these years.
As far as my own family is concerned, I do know that this stuff that's in the light now can all be worked together for good... to break this cycle once and for all. For the rest, I'm trusting God to get them out of my head.
Well, I was just catching up here and still want to read your last post about the withholding of info. Might not reply to that one till tomorrow... longgg day here. Hope you and baby have a good rest tonight... :) And again, thank you for sharing your thoughts here. I feel very privileged to be a part of this discussion.
With love,
Hope
-
Dear Iphi,
Your descriptions are priceless! I read them last night just before bed and had one of those combination guffaw/grimace experiences... lol :?
That is my mother, 100%. The only difference is - she holds in her rage and becomes solid ice.
Dad does the grocery shopping now. She clips the little ads out of the local sale paper and tapes them to the shopping list.
But wait - that's not enough. Then she makes notes of the colors, shapes, sizes of packaging, and detailed descriptions of the step by step process involved in determining whether or not one has actually located the product in question. It is truly bizarre. I actually have copies of these somewhere, that dad has sent me. When he does that, I get the guffaw-grimace, too. It's sick... but I feel disloyal to her and despise that he is disloyal to her... let them keep their games to themselves.
The mailbox story... every one within a 20-mile radius had to be inspected... lol... (((((((((Iphi's sister)))))))))
I have to give her hugs because I have been there... and I thought it not strange at the time. I actually believed that was the proper way of doing things! Oh, it gives me chills to recognize full force how deluded I was. NO ONE could do anything as right, as thoroughly, as absolutely efficiently (that is the BIG lol) as my mother. Aye yay yay... there is nothing efficient about that style.
Sometimes I think that surely there must be a huge dose of ocd in these people.
But the main factor seems to be... any excuse to keep people dithering about in their service.
I have dithered about, plenty. She had a personal servant/secretary/slave in me for years... and when I wasn't acting out the role of her
Girl Friday, I was feeling guilty about not being there for her.
Growing up, I felt so sorry for her, because my dad is not the sort of knight in shining armor a fine lady like my mother deserves.
He is very crude, uneducated, and just the sight of him I think was a constant affront to her. She wanted me to feel affronted, too... and superior.
I remember when they'd go to choir practice one night a week, I was 7-8 years old.
I'd turn down her bed and put toothpaste on her toothbrush, just so that she would find some relief when she got home... from the horrible experience she always let me know it was for her... having to deal with such commoners. She never said that, but it was crystal clear to me.
I wanted to take care of her.
And I just now realized... she's lost her only friend, now that I've seen... I don't run and jump any more when she expresses a wish. I am not her genie in a bottle. I honestly think that I am the only one she ever let that close...
and at this point, I run out of thoughts.
I see her failing... health-wise and mentally. She just turned 81. I don't know what will become of her and I can't imagine what I can write to her which could make any difference. So I'm praying about that.
(((((((Iphi)))))))) There must be some reason why we were presented with these particular challenges. I am still thinking and hoping it's good enough for me to say, "the cycle stops here!"
Love,
Hope
-
Same here, CB. I was thinking of OCD in Iphi's Dad and in your Mom.
Iphi, if it weren't so awful, it'd be funny. Subtract the rage and you've got benign insanity. But the rage on top of the irrationality and compulsion is just too much.
CB, I often have thought that women who read all the "ladies' magazines" for too many years begin a sort of compulsion. I had a cousin who admired Martha Stewart to the point that she grew literally obsessed with wreaths and artificial flowers and cute sayings and crafted everythings...and the themes of the items were always cutesy country-ish, but everything assembled from things like plastic and styrofoam, and the woman never met a piece of wood she didn't want to staple fabric around.
I wanted to give her a wooden spool of thread for a housewarming. It was like a monster of perfectionism and compulsion had eaten her from within.
love
Hops
-
I am driven to post a bunch now that the ball is rolling. Thank you for your responses Ami, CH and Hops.
Ami - I think my dad would really rather die than believe that others are in control, not him. I just don't know what it's about - why he is that way. He thinks control is life, maybe? I don't know - all I know is what happens and what I see. He never explains and does not seem to know himself. He never grows either, and I think that is a very important aspect of it. It's always the same. It was the same 30 years ago. Although, it seems all much darker to me now - the self pity is much more toxic, related to his illness and disability - lack of power and control over his own body. It's strange how his physical symptoms are so intertwined with his mental issues. Turning other people into extensions of himself when his own limbs will not obey him. Expecting his body to function under his command for no acknowledgement and appreciation - and it rebels - and he never stops trying to force it. But that is really subject for another post probably.
Okay wow CH - Ns and routine housekeeping tasks - I swear it could be a book, or at least a dark comedy.
Hops - And you know, a lot of times I had a hard time not laughing hysterically, helplessly. It's just so nuts and you have to wonder - whatever next? Because it is definitely going to be soemthing.
CH - I cannot believe you turned down the covers and put toothpaste on the brush for your mom because of the grueling horror that was choir practice, which is presumably voluntary not compulsory. I mean it wasn't like choir practice in prison camp. :lol: Or was it? Did they lash the altos with a whip because someone was off key?? And the annotated shopping list with visual aids!! :shock: :lol: I am humbly grateful that this idea never occurred to my dad. You know, I notice my dad doesn't disdain the human race though unlike a lot of Ns I hear about - but he isn't too aware of it either, which may explain things. :lol:
CH it just shows the extreme degree of brainwashing and the extent to which you had sacrificed your own needs and put her 'needs' (whims, indulgences) in place of your own best interest - that you would worry about her wellbeing because you weren't there to slave for her. Because she didn't lose a friend in you, but a slave. Maybe a slave and master can have positives in their relationship, and there is certainly intimacy in a master/slave relationship because we slaves know so much about our masters, but it is too unequal for friendship. But still if we didn't care so much, we could not have been slaves. So certainly they lose those who cared for them most. Very sad. But my dad seems to get by just as well on flattery and vanity type interactions and doesn't notice a difference anyway.
After I started this topic I felt disoriented for a while this weekend because it occurred to me "But I know so much about him." I know so very much about him. I have thought about my dad and studied him and observed him and contemplated him more than any other subject during my whole life. Far, far longer and harder than becoming a doctor or gaining a Ph.D., but with much much less prestige. lol! But CH when you pointed out that your mom is the person you know how to relate to - yes I know exactly what you mean - look how much time and study and energy has been put into it, right? But seriously - my life has been about this topic, this person. It needs to stop being about this, if that can even be managed. Who am I besides this? Who are we?
Hops - never considered Martha Stewart-o-mania as particularly evil before, but you make me see things in a new light. :shock: :lol:
-
Dear Teartracks,
You wrote:
"CH,
As I read about your friend who emailed about her new job but only mentioned mundane things like early emails and making coffee, it made me think that maybe she really doesn't have a job (for whatever reason) and that she is ashamed to say so. Just a thought."
This friend is an enigma to me, but I don't believe that she would lie.
However, I hadn't thought of this - (thank you, tt!) - she may be feeling shame about the job itself... if it is far less than what she'd desired in prestige and... hmm... autonomy, I guess. That seems to be very important to her... to call her own shots. I don't know. The secretive aspect of her approach to this announcement is what set me off to thinking about my mother's manner of withholding info as though it were some priceless treasure, all her own.
I wrote back to this friend, asking whether she had a sense, yet, of the permanency of this job. No response. I think that she is treading a tightrope of her own, at this stage of her life (59 and widowed).. and I do know that she's attending CoDA groups to overcome some issues... about which she's also been very vague. I'd like to understand, but I'm not up to any more missions in life, at this point. Thanks, tt.
Dear Hops,
Chairwoman of the Martha Stewart fan club... o boy.
My mother substituted travel magazines and catalogs for the crafty side of life. She's not into "country style" a bit... much too common, for her; I guess you could say she's much more "continental". Nowadays, she looks through stacks of catalogs of all sorts, and assigns craft projects to my dad.
Most recently, she had to have a birdhouse she saw in one of these publications. Dad can barely see through his eyeglasses, they're so scratched; he doesn't get dental treatment, although he can barely chew meat anymore; but she has spent thousands, I understand, on her own mouth, all for the sake of avoiding dentures. Who cares if Dad can't chew.
But I digress. This birdhouse... it's more of a condominium complex.
It required a 200 mile round trip to a certain shop, in order to purchase a $25.00 piece of copper, I think it was, for the green roof.... all so that the queen could have this luxurious item which she'd seen in a mag.
Doesn't matter that no bird in its right mind would occupy the thing.
It looks great next to her ceramic rabbit that never poos on her deck.
Anyhow... my husband 's explanation of these things begins with the saying:
"Nature abhors a vacuum."
No empty space can remain so for long.
To me, ocd is all about refilling that leaky bucket... and the faster you pour in (whatever), all you do is create more force to drain it out. It's never enough.
Combined with perfectionism, it's not only never enough, it's never good enough. Those two, combined with lack of empathy, extreme envy, almighty entitlement, supreme grandiosity, and pathological lying = npd.
To my knowledge, my mother lacks only the lying behavior... however, she holds in her rage, for the most part... so maybe she holds in the lies, as well.
I'd say that she must... because no human being could continue this farse without having lied to herself continually, for a lifetime.
Hugs, Hops.
Love,
Hope
Iphi... I'll be back! Break's over here... but I'll be contemplating these things while I work and try to type some more as able. I'm so glad that you're keeping this ball rolling, because it's having the effect of a giant fan, blowing that stinky old fog away. Hugs : )
Love,
Hope
P.S. LOL @ Martha Stewart-o-mania
-
Iphi,
Back with another installment here...
I think that my mother is dying because she realizes that others are in control. Envy and pride consume the one who hold them close...
And I believe that N's always view others who are in the role of "supplier" as extensions of themselves, I think. When my mother called this afternoon (I posted about it over on Gaining Strength's thread - Starting Over) I heard her utter despair at realizing that I am no longer one of those extensions... and, correspondingly, neither are my children. I sensed that she was very angry and, for a moment, I wondered whether she'd come right out with it and rage. She's making more and more errors these days... and that's killing her, too. She can no longer maintain the pretext of perfection and she's not getting any supply, positive or negative, from me or my family. Honestly, I think she'd be just as thrilled to have another horror story about my life as something positive and wonderful, with which to feed her need. The fact that I'm simply happy, healthy, growing, and safe... how dull for her!
Iphi, about your dad's lack of awareness (and disdain) for the human race... that's how npd-ex was. He didn't speak with disdain about others like my mother always has. He was an island unto himself, unless someone crossed him.
And that brainwashing... it's not even that I sacrificed my needs to be her slave.
I equated my needs with her own... just like I did with npd-ex :S
Invasion of the body snatchers, only this snatching happened at birth.
Until very recently... very, very recently... I felt selfish to even notice an unmet need... even for something as simple as sleep, or food. What she taught me is that I shouldn't need anything... only walk in her footsteps and keep refilling her.
The disorientation... is complete. When you identify so absolutely with an empty person, the search is on for those missing ingredients. You figure that there must be more to this puzzle...
but there isn't.
Empty vessels, they are.
Clouds without water, driven by the winds of their own design.
Who are we? Fully human and fully alive.... something NPD never will be.
All of those empty spaces we've tried to fill...
oh, I just remembered. The picture... a circle with an inner circle, with another circle within that one... that's us. Now put a dot in the very center.
That dot is NPD. We think there are spaces around the dot which we can fill in, but there aren't... it's just a dot, with an impermiable shell... nothing reaching out and nothing allowed in.
(((((((Iphi))))))
Love,
Hope
-
CH - I was just dying reading about your mom's special bird condo. A total N-ightmare. I can imagine no birds living in it, but all of them pooping on it....
When you wrote that your mom holds in her rage, I wondered if it is like when my dad is all icy and frigid and won't speak or look at you. Or if he is in public, he is elaborately polite. Is that the kind of holding in?
You were saying about how your mom would get NS if there was drama and horror going on in your life. It's something I've been thinking about. I'm the person in my family who something is 'wrong' with. I have gone to therapy. I work a perfectly decent job but never pushed forward to a masterful career (big issue in my family). As long as I relate with my dad from the position of 'I'm messed up' then you know, he can be all advisory. And you know, it's almost like a real relationship.
It's a real heart of darkness of dysfunction. I've been perturbed ever since the perception started bubbling up from the depths.
I am not sure I was able to notice an unmet need for the most part, so I really know what you mean. Were we pod people? Stepford children of the N cult? Eek!
The main unmet need I had was for wholesome physical affection. It was visceral suffering. I was thinking last night - do I remember being hugged by my dad since... the 1970s? I really don't. I used to hug him on the (apparently incorrect) theory that it just didn't occur to him to hug or that he didn't feel okay with it or something. No. But it never occurred to me that it was a 'need' (I had no 'needs') or that he would be the person to fill it. Well, it's back to how I completely excused him.
The other big aching needs were for guidance (nix!) and for acknowledgement/parental pride (nyet!)
Thanks so much for sharing your experiences CH. It means a great deal to me. I am also happy for you that you and your family have managed to navigate some really harrowing past adventures ((((CH))))
-
Another story I need to exorcise. This one - caused me pain to the point of muteness for years. I couldn't even describe it and never spoke of it to anyone. Maybe it won't seem so bad, but... it was just the worst to me. Even writing this right now - on the inside I feel like I am grimacing and twisting in anguish - but on the outside there is no change in my expression. That poker face is a skill I learned at home.
I applied to several colleges in the next state over. I arranged 3 on-campus tours and interviews. The third interview would be for my first choice school that seemed so wonderful and great to me, and I really wanted to go there. But I was worried because I had been seriously depressed and my grades had tanked in 10th grade. Since then I had worked hard and ever grading period was better than the last.
First 2 interviews went well. My dad drove on the way to the third interview (can you see where this story is going?). The way to the third school was -- take the highway east in the direction of our home city, but then take an exit and turn north.
So we are heading east, and I (disastrously) confide in my dad that I am really nervous about the 3rd interview because I really want it to go well and it will be crucial because I believe that otherwise the school will reject me because of my grades. I'm not sure I can get into the school even with the interview, but I really want to go there. I was a little tearful (shame about my depression and past bad grades and having dropped advanced math and advanced science - would they think I was 'good enough?') and I was all open and vulnerable.
So we approach the exit to turn north, and he drove right past it and straight home. I said 'there's the exit what are you doing?' and he said there was no reason to waste any more time on me since I couldn't get into that school anyway.
However that strikes you, please know that it completely leveled me like a bomb. It was extremely, extremely damaging. It was a complete, killing body blow that he would do that to me.
Really feeling the hate for him right now just in describing it and it is almost 20 years later. But I stuffed it at the time, because it was far too dangerous. I paid a really high price for my undergraduate education.
I got into one of the schools that I did interview with and they gave me good financial aid as well, better every year because it was tied to my GPA and I kept it high.
The following year my sister got into and went to the school that had been my first choice and that rejected me. Yes, she interviewed there. Additionally, she applied to a school on the opposite coast and they went on a tourist vacation around the interview. She told me 'it's not about you.' Like, you know, I shouldn't make comparisons in how we are treated, that would be very wrong of me. And I believed that she was quite right about that so I stuffed it.
Anyway, for myself I was happy with the education I experienced except that for the first year I feared my dad judged me because my school was not 'good enough' and obsessed about transferring (I had no evidence that any thoughts re: me even crossed my dad's mind - it was just a 'why can't I please him' anxiety thing). Eventually that kind of passed though. And it was quite a good school and I did well there. I visited my sister at her school and though it was a great, dynamic place I was glad it was not where I ended up. It all worked out fine.
But the actions of my dad toward me that day - he delivered the killing blow and he never paused. He planned it and executed it.
I tried to make it about me not being good enough - tried to believe his lie - so I wouldn't have to see the truth about him. Believing his lies hurt me a great deal - I mean not only emotional pain - but structural damage.
I've never really recovered in that I have always believed I am 'not good enough.' It connects in with the stomach pain, which I am feeling right now - and sick and shaky too. Toxic, toxic stuff. And my great anxiety about how to be good enough/can never be good enough. Can't achieve an unassailable degree of perfection - not capable of it. Anxiety.
Thanks for this forum - letting me put this out there.
-
IPHI,
What the N did to you, driving right past that school, has been done to me more times than I can count. It is nothing short of CRUEL AND EVIL! N's are such JERKS and MORE!
The Bible says it this way "fathers, provoke not your children to wrath." That was clearly a way to build up bitterness and even hatred in you over the years, from that moment on!
Bless your heart, IPHI. I can FULLY understand and even FEEL your pain from that.
~Laura
-
Anyway, for myself I was happy with the education I experienced except that for the first year I feared my dad judged me because my school was not 'good enough' and obsessed about transferring (I had no evidence that any thoughts re: me even crossed my dad's mind - it was just a 'why can't I please him' anxiety thing). Eventually that kind of passed though. And it was quite a good school and I did well there. I visited my sister at her school and though it was a great, dynamic place I was glad it was not where I ended up. It all worked out fine.
But the actions of my dad toward me that day - he delivered the killing blow and he never paused. He planned it and executed it.
I just started reading this thread and see a lot of similarities to what I went through with my Asperger/N father. In my family it seems to have passed down the generations (hopefully ending with my father :D). Like your father, my father and my grandfather talked nonstop about their own "knowledge" and experiences, while everybody else had to sit and listen. There was rarely any real dialogue.
Driving past your college exit was pretty clear cut N-ish sabotage. Since your father relies so heavily on knowledge, maybe your pursuit of college seemed a threat. The sabotage of my education was more subtle. My father declared it wasn't his obligation to provide any school assistance (financial or otherwise) past high school, unless he happened to have "surplus" funds. Then he never said a word to encourage my pursuit of any college education. He was always careful to keep the true state of the family finances under tight wraps, so his offspring and wife wouldn't expect too much out of him. But then when I went to an inexpensive state school, he was critical of the choice. Only in my later years have I come to realize how he manipulated the situation to his own ends. He worked to sabotage my ambitions, but then turns it around so it seems I made poor choices. This way he gets to think of himself as a good parent, even though he really didn't do much of anything for me. It was like growing up in a poverty situation, when my parents were actually very well off financially.
I hadn't heard the term "cerebral N" before. Now I wonder if this isn't a better description of my father than Aspergers syndrome. I always learn something new from this board :D
-
Dear Iphi,
I am so sorry.
You wrote:
it completely leveled me like a bomb. It was extremely, extremely damaging. It was a complete, killing body blow that he would do that to me.
I had a very, very similar experience with my F (different context but hauntingly familiar). I felt as though he calmly looked me in the eye, stabbed me through the heart, and then stepped on my body as I lay bleeding on the floor as he calmly went on with his life.
I can't even put into words the emotions I was feeling at that moment: horrified/sickened/hurt/ashamed/shocked/devastated/destroyed. I just wanted to vomit at the realization of how cruel he really was.
For me, it was also an eye-opener. When that happened to me, I became fully aware of what he was capable of - and knew from that point forward that I could never, ever trust him in any way, shape, or form.
I am so sorry you too experienced this. When it happened to me, it was one of the worst experiences of my life.
Much love to you - you deserved so much better.
Peace
-
So we approach the exit to turn north, and he drove right past it and straight home. I said 'there's the exit what are you doing?' and he said there was no reason to waste any more time on me since I couldn't get into that school anyway.
However that strikes you, please know that it completely leveled me like a bomb. It was extremely, extremely damaging. It was a complete, killing body blow that he would do that to me.
I would have been devastated.
-
((((((((((((((( Dear Iphi )))))))))))))))
He is obscene.... Perverse!! I am so sorry that you've been within his grasp!
I don't know whether this can help you to feel any better, but maybe it will explain a bit... and I hope... ease your suffering.
There is something I've learned about cerebral N which is very predictable.
When you are his source of supply, you must never express a doubt, confess any lack, or indicate the slightest sign of weakness.
With N, you are permitted to co-exist without punishment only in a glorified state, as his positive supply.
Then you are available for N to view you as an extension of himself... perfect, just as he believes himself to be... albeit a lesser deity.
This was your role as you interviewed at those colleges... up to the point when you confided your humanity.
At that moment, it was to N as though you were his right arm, reaching up with a knife to stab him in the heart.
He didn't see you, Iphi... any more than he's ever seen you. To him, you were his own shame, personified... and he had to obliterate that.
I'm so sorry. It really was all about him... always. Not one ounce of his shame belongs in your bucket!
Love,
Hope
-
Dear Hope,
That was the BEST explanation that I ever heard of a cerebral N. Either that or it just clicked in to my brain after all this time. That explains my whole childhood. My M 'loved" me when I made her look good-- did well in school, married someone she thought looked good, had kids, kids did well etc. Whenever, I was hurting--- She STABBED me. WOW-- I am getting a panic attack, here.
Iphi--- I am so, so so sorry. You deserved someone who could see your "greatness'. I can 'see' it over the internet-- honest.. .Iphi--- it was a horrible, horrible betrayal with the schools. Any kid would feel like they could confide in a parent. It was a knife in the back and a stab in the GUT( our poor,poor stomachs absorbing all this abuse)
Iphi-- I am really glad that you risked to share this. I could hear how very hard it was for you Love Ami
-
reallyME, tjr100, FP, starfish, CH, CB123 and Ami - thank you for your compassion and understanding and sharing your stories too. I am sorry to have company in this and my heart goes out to each of you. Thank you for your kind responses.
Your description makes so much sense CH, and the additional insights of CB123 do too. It's hard to grasp in my mind how incredibly delusional he has to be in order to really interact with us (my sister and me) as extensions of himself to such an extent. And it doesn't always add up the way one would think or else why would they hate the graduation or the wedding etc. of an extension - you would think they would like it/bask in it.
It really helps me see why I could never do things and just be bad at them and enjoy them. This is a big key to the paralysis I think. Do others agree there might be something in this - not being able to do things as merely human?
FP - it's actually a saving grace that you began to distrust your NF when he knifed you. I just held harder and squeezed my eyes shut. It especially was problematic for me in forming other relationships in that I see I did not defend myself or even distance myself from cruel people. Because I refused to see. And you know, I really wanted to be normal so I just umm faked it. And when they hurt me I... stood there and pretended it didn't hurt and kept hanging around.
tjr100 - I'm interested in what symptoms lead you to wonder about Asperger's in your dad and family. Your experience with your dad bending everything around to his advantage is so depressingly familiar though not in that specific way. I was terrified the entire college experience because he had to come across with some $ - it's a miracle he never pulled the plug on me, but believe me - it was in my mind.
I want to say I don't think my sister should not have applied to that school or anything and I hope I didn't give that impression. The problem was not being able to mention my gaping, sucking wound because it would be a distasteful inconvenience and 'selfish' of me. Posting here is really making me realize that holding out hope for my relationship with my sister is also very likely BS.
Earlier when I had been in that depression - I was terrified to tell him my grades were suffering (he never asked to look at report cards - I forged his signature on that and permission slips etc.). Anyway, I went in to his study and started to tell him I was feeling very troubled and low and he said (no longer remember it exactly) "Don't expect me to listen to this or expect to ask for anything from me beyond shelter and food. That's it. Do you understand? That is IT." But you know we cleaned his house and mowed his lawn and washed his dishes and etc. There was no end to what we had to do for him to make up for his life not being what he wanted it to be. Anyway, learning about N-ism and really looking at what I did without and had to pretend to not want - really gives a new perspective on the depression I experienced at 15-16. And finally it seems that maybe I can feel compassion for that young Iphi instead of blame that I proved to be a flawed creature not able to be always brilliant etc. I was always apologizing. :?
I've really squashed my own life and potential greatly because of not feeling good enough. I am hoping others can speak to that problem and coming through it because it has been with me so long now. Feels like I'll never be free.
-
Iphi,
The potential is all yours... always and still. The squashing part belongs in the past and you're the only one who can place it there. That's tough... I felt pretty much like an amoeba yesterday... and maybe I'm just so stubborn, but I refuse to exist like that anymore.
I am coming through this... and I don't hope so, I know so.
Step 1 for me is to choose to see my mother as I finally saw npd-ex. Powerless.
That's my choice, right here and now. And it's yours, too.
She has no control over me unless I allow her to.
So I'll continue learning the things that I should've learned years ago... about internal boundaries, and real intimacy, and recognizing feelings, to manage them as an adult.
Step 2 for me is more like a giant, flailing leap across the Grand Canyon, and that is to forgive her. Not to "feel" forgiving, but to make the deliberate decision of will to release any claim to judgment against her.
Without forgiveness, I believe I'd be choosing to allow her continued control over my life, so this isn't for some day down the road... it's for right now.
And for tomorrow, and the next day, and every single time it tries to sprout in me... the anger and the resentment and all the rest.
Step 3... Well, "Accomplishments" is a word my mother likes to bandy about. Okay, fine... how about listing them? Not in light of what could have been, but only the facts. And don't forget to put "awareness" wayyy up at the top, because that's a whole lot more than many folks ever achieve.
Step 4..... getting pretty tentative here, but I am thinking of a review of standards. And this time, we set the bar... based on our own needs, likes, preferences, interests, etc. I know for a certainty that my mother's designs on my life do not come anywhere near what my own desires have been.
And again, this is not at all about "what if's"... I think that those need to be put on mute in order to begin this fresh start.
Whatdya think, Iphi? Sound like a reasonable beginning? I'm game!
Tired of fighting the jailer when the key is already in my own pocket.
Love,
Hope
-
What a great post CH - I'm going to take it with me and sleep on it. You are so right - the things we achieve (i.e. awareness) are things that the N wouldn't even understand or know how to value. Sleep tight!
-
Iphi,
I felt like I'd watched a bayonetting when I read your post.
I think it can't be any farther apart--the hungry heart of a child who just needs some simple love and appreciation from an Nparent, and the cold freezing wind that howls through their chests where empathic hearts should be.
It's like one of the terrible contrasts in nature: the calf and the merciless lion, the storm and the grasses, the sun and the thirsty.
It just is. In some way, I feel that our human anguish can make us forget that we too are animals, we have long gestation, extended childhood by mammalian standards, and we are as vulnerable as a newborn zebra...and just as exposed.
Where I give thanks in reading here is that those well enough to write about it here have survived the predator, the drought, the river...and we're here, swimming so strongly.
I think telling the story must have left you drained. It was an act of power and declaration and you've kicked off.
Never doubt that you will swim so much farther than you ever could have imagined when you were trapped in a car with a merciless human.
Hops
-
Aww thank you Hops, your kindness shines out. Your thoughts on we human animals are profound and ring true to me. It is true - I was drained and yet agitated at the edges.
Yesterday was a strange day - it was strange to post that experience and know, for the first time, that it was not my shame and it did not happen because I deserved it because of my failings and weaknesses and really I had no fear that anyone here would tell me that it did. I'm so grateful.
A small incident happened at work where I was treated as less than. It was an unconscious slight on the other person's part, but real. And I felt the hurt and then I felt anger. Then I realized it was because I particularly like the person who did it and had hoped we could be friends, but now understand she sees me as less-than. And then I realized - I do not feel less-than. It is not true. That process took all day. I was amazed to be knowing my own experience in real-time. And it was happening at the same time as this topic.
Together between them - I realized how one-down less-than not-good-enough I live my life - apologizing for the stink of my especial badness that my presence inflicts and the great try to overlook. And I realized that it is over - living that way. The cloud... is blowing away.
It must be what they call synchronicity.
-
Hi Iphi,
Yes, in some ways it was a saving grace. From that point forward I was more emotionally detached than I had been before – but he was still able to hurt me. It is funny, I got to thinking about this last night, but I think that after that particular incident, I drew a line in the sand – he was well aware of that line, and for the first time in his life, he didn’t dare cross it. (Without going into all the details, he knew I had information about him that could destroy him socially). But, true to nature, he was constantly testing that line. He would push it, and push it, and push it, but would stop just short of breaking it. So, although it did get better, it never truly stopped.
My M was more the chilly, cerebral N. Despite years of subtle and not-so-subtle abuse I did the same thing with her that you did with your F. I too:
just held harder and squeezed my eyes shut. It especially was problematic for me in forming other relationships in that I see I did not defend myself or even distance myself from cruel people. Because I refused to see. And you know, I really wanted to be normal so I just umm faked it. And when they hurt me I... stood there and pretended it didn't hurt and kept hanging around.
It wasn’t until after my F died, and she once again (and for the last time) knifed me, that I realized that it would never end. That was when I finally realized that I had spent half my life as someone else’s whipping post, and I refused to spend one more minute doing so. I decided that all that energy that I poured into 2 black holes was an utter and colossal waste, and that I was going to take that energy and use it where it would have a more positive outcome – give it to my real family (children and H). I went NC.
You said:
Together between them - I realized how one-down less-than not-good-enough I live my life - apologizing for the stink of my especial badness that my presence inflicts and the great try to overlook. And I realized that it is over - living that way. The cloud... is blowing away.
I can so relate to this. After I went NC – I realized that I had lived this way since earliest childhood – and IT IS NOT TRUE. We are all created equal. I have been working through this over the past year. It has not been an easy belief to change – but as you say “The cloud…..is blowing away.” And the glimpses of sunlight I catch as that cloud slowly moves away are quite beautiful.
Much love to you,
Peace
-
It is not true.
So powerful. So much power in four words.
:)
Hops
-
AMI: That explains my whole childhood. My M 'loved" me when I made her look good-- did well in school, married someone she thought looked good, had kids, kids did well etc. Whenever, I was hurting--- She STABBED me.
I think one of the most important things to realize about the narcissist, is that they cannot handle it when someone appears to be the N's version of "weak." This can mean a number of things, depending on the particular N.
To N men, they see many women as being "weak" for the simple fact that they are WOMEN. This, in the N-guy's mind, means that, when he abuses the woman, she ASKED FOR IT, just because she's female.
To N women, other women who appear not as smart, pretty, integrous as they, are DESERVING OF PUNISHMENT.
Now, WHY do N men and women want to punish others for just BEING WHO THEY ARE?
Because, generally the "who they are" shows to an N, things inside himself/herself, that he/she will NOT ALLOW to be seen on the surface. They have trained themselves to stuff the "real me" down so deeply, that, when they see other people being the way that "stuffed self" really is, they vaguely start to recognize it, don't realize that it's in them too, and they become upset and start to lash out...it's almost logical, when you think about the truth of the situation. The one they are actually meaning to punish is, THEMSELVES.
~N's HATE anything resembling openness or vulnerability.
~Laura
-
tjr100 - I'm interested in what symptoms lead you to wonder about Asperger's in your dad and family. Your experience with your dad bending everything around to his advantage is so depressingly familiar though not in that specific way.
Hi Iphi. Unlike many of the N parents described on this board, my father isn't (usually) outright mean, just self absorbed, socially inept, and a "know it all". He worked as an engineer, which is one of the classic Aspergers professions. He doesn't have any friends and has had trouble with every human relationship. That's sort of the quick summary of symptoms. A couple of years ago in exasperation at his usual way of relating, I looked up "borderline autism" on the internet and eventually learned about AS and narcissism.
I grew up listening to him do monologues about topics of interest to him. I've come to realize the biggest problem for me isn't necessarily what he did, it's what he failed to do, which is provide any sort of validation or positive feedback to his children. In terms of food and shelter, he was an okay provider, but emotionally he left his children to raise themselves.
So I spent the first 20 years of my adult life in a semi conscious search for the external validation I didn't get as a child. This project kind of fell apart in my 30's, and then I started trying to figure out what really went wrong in my childhood. I knew all along things in my FOO weren't good, but it's only in last couple of years I really started putting the pieces together.
I can relate to your comment about not feeling "good enough" and how it squashes your potential. This kind of feeling seems a definite holdover from FOO experience. If we weren't "good enough" to get validation from our parents, then we aren't likely to make up for it elsewhere. No matter how good we may be in reality, we are still fighting the lack of validation from childhood.
I've been feeling good the last couple of years. Distance from the FOO and knowledge of the problems goes a long way toward improving things.
-
Oh my tjr100 thank you. My dad is a retired (electrical) engineer too. I don't think he has Asperger's though he does seem able to live like a hermit and amuse himself, no problem. He likes to be fussed over though and always seems to have women hanging around. I would call them his friends, but they tend to serve him, so it's more oooey and dysfunctional than that. :?
Got to run for now.
-
Dear Laura,
Your post put so many things together for me.I "saw" how the N worked. My mother loved to smirk and mock at my desire to have integrity. I can see here mocking and sneering face, She would hiss with her twisted face,"There ISSSSSS no right or wrong."She thought that these desires on my part were the most stupid and naive desires in the world.
She hated that I aspired to have character.
She hissed and denounced anything "good" ,loving or kind. She seemed to need to "annilihate" it. I wish that I knew about N ,earlier..
You explained it all. Thank you. Laura Love Ami.
-
Hey folks I'm sorry for not more fully responding to the posts here from late last week. I intended to but life events swept me away from doing more than a quick read of the board and posting on the fly. Hopefully now there will be a bit of time.
Finding Peace - thank you for your post. You are definitely my sister-in-arms and I'm sorry you had to live with 2 such parents. I think it is a mark of your presence of mind and strength of character that you were able to implement some emotional detachment from your dad and maintain it. That's the striking thing, since so much of these enmeshed issues are so cyclical. Also your ability, eventually and ultimately, to redirect your energies from the black hole/bottomless pit to more productive and rewarding and deserving directions - is so important and crucial. I'm working on it.
People have been telling this joke about when the co-dependent dies and someone else's life flashes before their eyes. You know, I know so much about my dad. I've entered into his feelings at every turn and spent hours listening not just to lectures on science and math and politics and evolution and all sorts of whatnot, but discussed his childhood and listened to him talk about work. I'm parentified, you know - I had to take care of him emotionally as well as all sorts of house tasks and raising myself.
I'm an expert on my dad. He is the project that all that energy has been devoted to that could have been used for living my life. It's done. It is what happened. But it's hard to pull out of the bad investment! Even as I finally am able to do a damage assessment in the light of morning after the storm, even knowing the serious warping of the structure and heavy setbacks and seeing how much work I am going to have to do - and it is a LOT - even so, it's really psychologically difficult to redirect the energies.
For the first time this weekend I was able to think about forgiveness as a possibility. And it is probably only because I can see that no matter how much havoc he has wrought in my psyche and life etcetera, he really doesn't know better. I actually do not believe he would do better if he knew better, because he seems so bloody incapable of any learning or growth whatsoever. Instead, time and again, I have seen him pretend to wisdom that he clearly does not possess. That makes me sad. So I think it may be that I can forgive him because he is so clearly covered in ignorance and darkness and therefore it is he who must suffer the most. If I understand that really I am valuable and worth knowing and loving (in contrast to all the messages conveyed to me) then his loss of relation to me is really pretty awful. But that is exactly where such lies lead and only the most lost, bereft, delusional fool would choose control over relation, lies over truth, flattery over appreciation and basically all the things that I see him choose time and again.
ReallyME - thank you for your post. When you write about how an N sees other categories of people as weak and less-than, I also see that the N will never consent to learn anything from those people or by observing those people. The N cannot accept anything from the weak, except no-doubt service and groveling and compliments.
I was hasty in saying that the clouds are blowing away from being not good enough. It was an epiphany and a real rush to experience within myself a lightening of the load that has always been squashing me, but then later on I realized -- it is up to me to put in the elbow grease to make the change. And I haven't really started on that yet.
Still, on Sunday suddenly I experienced a feeling of marked warmth and fullness in my solar plexus. It actually felt full of warm energy. Now, not since my teens have I felt the horror of hollowness - and in those days it was very extreme hollowness as if a cold wind was howling through my center - it was horrible. I used to draw pictures of things with holes in them to express the feeling. Anyway, it hasn't been that bad for 20 years, but never have I felt such fullness and warmth either. It subsided but it was a sort of high experience.
This morning I had to go somewhere new and meet someone for work, and my stomach pains came back. Also yesterday I felt the same frustration and some resentment with the co-worker who dissed me last week and who so clearly regards me as her inferior.
So it isn't exactly blue skies. lol! But it's work in progress. Since tjr and FP have both shared that they struggle with the one-down less-than unworthy feeling - I want to do a separate topic addressing it. I need all the help I can get to extract myself from this and it is my hope that working on it can be helpful to many. It's so encouraging that others struggle and push on the same issues because it shows the illusory nature of the box we are in. kwim?
Ami it is so disturbing to read about your mom saying there is no right or wrong. My dad always has laughed at me because basically since birth I have asserted that Mind is over Matter and we have existence beyond our current physical forms. Mostly I do not discuss these things with him, but it has been a big struggle not to lose what I have always known. It was also very difficult to never, ever express those things that are my perspective. It was obviously too dangerous, so I never did, until the early 2000s. The reason I broke silence then was that it occurred to me that I had to try to convey these things to him, because his interior sickness is connected to not understanding these things. His reckless actions and foolish decisions, his choice to live in self-pity, rage and despair, and to feel that illness should not happen to him but should rather happen to someone more deserving, such as Iphi - all of these things are bad for him, I believe, beyond his current life. Anyway, of course he made fun of me but I approached it all sneakily as a game "In your next life you should learn to blay the maracas." That was my approach - just to slide some playful possibilities in there to get him to think about what he actually does not know, since he is so sure he knows what he knows.
Getting back to your mom, asserting that there is no right or wrong is, to my eyes, a symptom of a serious spiritual illness. Imo, all of creation has an absolute relationship to the creator, but all of creation has a relative relationship to each other. If one does not know of the absolute relationship with one's creator, then maybe everything looks relative and there appears to be no right and wrong, but it's a 'the earth is flat' assertion. But hey, just imo. It's a terrible thing to teach a child since (a) it's wrong and (b) it leaves the child rudderless and without a way to protect herself and keep herself safe - how can you learn discernment?
On the other hand, it isn't like I am so enlightened as my co-worker really hurt my feelings last week and made me angry by putting me down and if I was so enlightened it would not be even a blip on the radar. So that is about where it is at for me. :P
I really appreciate the opportunity to express these things here. It's such a relief.
-
[ It's a terrible thing to teach a child since (a) it's wrong and (b) it leaves the child rudderless and without a way to protect herself and keep herself safe - how can you learn discernment?
Dear Iphi
You came through for me again. This point( above) has been what I have been trying to explain on my new threads.
I feel rudderless. I don't trust my gut to give me the information in life so I can function.
What my M taught me is "garbage" and not real and I have lost connection to myself so I don't trust my own eyes and perceptions to tell me what is real.
I am dumping out N ideas BUT DON"T TRUST myself and my perceptions to put in new ideas. I hope that somebody understands . I am having a panic attack b/c of facing these things LOve Ami
-
Ami,
I heard a real heart's cry in your post here. It's almost as though you are saying "EVERYTHING I was taught, I found out was unhealthy or distored. Now that I'm an adult, I know those things I learned, are not helpful to me, but then, if I discard the only compass I have had since birth, what/who shall lead me and protect me...from myself, others, life.
If I am OFF in my interpretation, feel free to correct me. That's just what I hear you saying from my own perception.
My answer to you is, take a chance at choice making one step at a time, ask a trusted friend to explain to you if your choice is healthy/unhealthy, beneficial/unbeneficial.
~Laura
-
Dear Laura,
Thank you. That is what I am saying. I am taking a whole lifetime of learning and and having to throw it off the "boat" b/c the boat is too heavy and we will drown.
I AM shell shocked..
I just wanted to express this and am glad that you understood . I needed to know that I was not alone.
Not being alone is a huge part of the healing for me.
You are right, Laura. I need to grow(like a baby)-- step by step. The ONE thing that gives me comfort( and a lot of comfort) is that all this lifetime of pain brought me to a" new birth" with God. I am the only one in my family who is "born again". They think that it is "stupid".
At my darkest hour, I see my life as coming together to be 'born anew" from above. I could never , ever face all these truths about my life ( and how I wasted most of it) without knowing that the best is ahead.
Also, I have the promise,"When my mother and father forsake me, God will lift me up."I fit in this category.(lol).
Thank you for responding. My heart was crying,but now I feel much,much better Love Ami
-
For the first time this weekend I was able to think about forgiveness as a possibility. And it is probably only because I can see that no matter how much havoc he has wrought in my psyche and life etcetera, he really doesn't know better. I actually do not believe he would do better if he knew better, because he seems so bloody incapable of any learning or growth whatsoever. Instead, time and again, I have seen him pretend to wisdom that he clearly does not possess. That makes me sad. So I think it may be that I can forgive him because he is so clearly covered in ignorance and darkness and therefore it is he who must suffer the most. If I understand that really I am valuable and worth knowing and loving (in contrast to all the messages conveyed to me) then his loss of relation to me is really pretty awful. But that is exactly where such lies lead and only the most lost, bereft, delusional fool would choose control over relation, lies over truth, flattery over appreciation and basically all the things that I see him choose time and again.
Dear Iphi,
I believe that these people don't know any better because they don't want to know any better. They seem to be absolutely resolute in their closed-heartedness, to the point that even the most outwardly normal-appearing of them view other human beings, at best, as pets.
That pretending to wisdom is so very damaging to a young child. Having seen some of that acted out by npd-ex in my own home, with my own children as captive audience, I've been able to re-frame alot of my own childhood experiences. The difference is - my kids had the wherewithal to say, "No, that doesn't make sense." I didn't... not as a child. I was too terrified of the rejection which was sure to follow any such signal of disloyalty to the queen.
This makes me sad, too. Having been consistently, repeatedly dismissed for a lifetime, I now receive weekly letters coaxing me to report on things like my childrens' accomplishments and other newsworthy items which might sound good to those who ask, by the way, how's your family? Letters signed with love and God's blessings, x's and o's. X's and O's!!!! 4 of each... 1 for each of us. This from a woman from whom I've not once heard the words, "I love you"... not once, to anyone. No hugs and kisses, no warmth, only an image... a calculating stick figure posing as a human.
I feel like I could forgive if there weren't anymore of these awful letters, but they just keep arriving in the mailbox. If she'd just quit trying to play the role... I really don't even know why she bothers. Maybe she is wondering the same... because it sounds like her health has gone directly, dramatically downhill, ever since our visit there 8 weeks ago. Ugh... see, now I feel responsible, feel the guilt... as though it's up to me to tell her what she clearly cannot admit to herself... that this whole thing is a lie, a fraud, a charade. I feel like if I could maybe free her from going through the motions, she'd... well, I don't know what she'd do. At least I would have been honest. My husband's method of honesty with his mother is to only contact her when he wants to, which isn't often.
But then she doesn't write to him weekly... she writes to me :? I just say hi and wish her well and don't speak of him... figuring that's his business to communicate as he chooses. :?
Covered in ignorance and darkness... yes. Sometimes I feel that I have a little light which would shine into that darkness, if I quit hiding it beneath my bushel basket. Then it would be clear that the ignorance is chosen, if it continued... and after 81 years, it's hard to imagine a change. Except that I remember long ago, when she was very, very nervous... quite a bit more neurotic... and maybe more open, before this icy steel vault became her permanent measure of security. And I feel that, if she were a friend of mine, I would at least tell her where I stand... and for myself, if I could just do that, in less than 10,000 words, without hatefulness and blame, then the grieving could begin. She needs to grieve as much as I do, because what she's lost is two generations.... and more... and at the rate she's going, she will not be on this earth much longer. This is eating away at her from the inside, I know, and when she called demanding to know "what's new?" I feel that she was really asking me to turn the key. God knows I don't want to open that door... it feels like Pandora's box.
"Only the most lost, bereft, delusional fool would choose control over relation, lies over truth, flattery over appreciation and basically all the things that I see him choose time and again".
That fact shakes me wide awake. I don't know about your father, but no one has ever dared confront my mother and face her down. Dad says he tried recently, with the simple question, "Why must it always be your way?" To which she replied, "You're full of s_ _ _." And now, her latest health problem... she's never told me what it is, only the usual vague (constant) complaints about her trials - and the note that for 6 weeks she hasn't gone to church -... but Dad wrote and told me, in his words, she has the "quick steps".
Ironic. I believe it's a God- thing. I am absolutely convinced that all her health stuff is wrapped up and contained within this prideful denial which she has absolutely refused to confront within herself. And I think that as the only person on this earth who's in a position to say that to her, I'd best spit it out.
Once again, Iphi, so many thanks for this thread and for all the thoughts and feelings you've shared here. I don't think I could keep looking at this alone.
Hugs,
Hope
-
Dear Iphi,
Thank you so much for this:
I think it is a mark of your presence of mind and strength of character that you were able to implement some emotional detachment from your dad and maintain it. That's the striking thing, since so much of these enmeshed issues are so cyclical.
That brough tears to my eyes.
Much love to you,
Peace
-
Hi Hope...
I am absolutely convinced that all her health stuff is wrapped up and contained within this prideful denial which she has absolutely refused to confront within herself. And I think that as the only person on this earth who's in a position to say that to her, I'd best spit it out.
Do you mean saying to her, you're ill because you're in denial?
Do you think she will hear you and it'll be healing?
love
Hops
-
Hi Hope...
Do you mean saying to her, you're ill because you're in denial?
Do you think she will hear you and it'll be healing?
love
Hops
Hi Hops,
Something like that, yes.... only using alot more words (you know me :?)
In her last weekly letter, she asked for prayer.
That was a first. I feel that she's very frightened... and I am praying for her, for the first time in my life, really.
My parents have always been quite religious Christians, at least when it comes to church attendance; but alot of that appears to be empty ritual, absent a personal relationship with Christ.
It's like they have "fire insurance" plus a couple extra riders on their policy, but don't let that interfere with their drinking, or general attitudes toward people. And I feel that she's dying... quickly.
Remember the Israelites? Liberated from Egypt, taken to Sinai for the Word, then 40 years in the wilderness, so many dying without entering Canaan... because of the pride of their hearts, their repeated refusals to trust and obey God, their murmuring and complaining...
well, I'm not into visions, but I've been in that wilderness, and I see her there now. So whether she hears me or not, I've been impressed with the fact that there may be no one else to say what needs to be said.
It's really bad, Hops. At times, I've just wished that she was gone... and I'm ashamed to feel that way, but God knows it's the truth and He's just not letting it rest. He keeps bringing me back to this and it's like I'm 4 years old again, afraid to open my mouth, just wanting her to go away and leave me be. But then, thinking back to another character who refused to go where he was sent, I realized that I really don't want to get swallowed by a whale, so I think I'd best follow through. It's not her physical healing that's weighing so heavily on me... I'm really not sure what she even believes.
So I've got my spiel all typed up... it's a sermon, really, based on one of my favorite Bible teaching messages from our pastor... and I believe it with all of my heart. Now if I can just put it into the mail.
Love,
Hope
-
Thank you for sharing what you're struggling with, Hope.
I don't know what it's like to feel charged with saving another's soul.
Maybe if you just forgave her (without dropping the boundaries one iota, that you need to feel safe and healthy)?
And sent love?
Maybe you'd just be acting out the lesson.
This is a very hard thing.
love from me to you,
Hops
-
AMi,
I think when we did not receive love as children we have no way of knowing and look to the external for clues on how to be. This is where I see myself, through your work here I believe you are working through the pain and the knowing will grow within. I always envied people who seemed to know instinctively when to leave, not get involved with N people, these people, I believe were nurtured and turned away from what was bad for them. We had no markers, no signposts, looking outside all the time, trying to make sense of the insanity. The most important lesson I am learning is that I need to parent myself with love and compassion to know from my heart the dangers of this world.
axa
-
Dear Axa,
I think what happens is that abuse disconnects us from our core. We don't trust ourselves SO we turn ourselves over to someone who we think "knows" better. That sets us up for failure b/c it simply won't work to have another person be the 'driver of our boat"
So, we throw away our core. Then, we make many mistakes and terrible decisions( like falling in love with N's).
The key, I think, is the inner child 'work". Inside us is STILL that core that we were told not to trust. It has always been there BUT we told it to 'Shut up"
I think that the MAIN difference between abused people and normal people is that abused people lost this vital ,vital connection with their core. Maybe it is that simple. If we could regain it( by the inner child work) we would be well. It might be just that simple. I am on that path.I have had great successes in a very short time.
Let me know if any of this strikes you, Axa Love Ami
-
Thank you for sharing what you're struggling with, Hope.
I don't know what it's like to feel charged with saving another's soul.
Maybe if you just forgave her (without dropping the boundaries one iota, that you need to feel safe and healthy)?
And sent love?
Maybe you'd just be acting out the lesson.
This is a very hard thing.
love from me to you,
Hops
Dear Hops,
I know it may sound like some sort of rescue mission, but the burden that's weighing on me isn't the weight of her soul, it's the load of truth which I've never spoken.
What I feel charged with is to break the chains binding me to this "keeping up appearances" monster... that creature which represents to me a living death. If I weren't still linked to it, I would have spoken up in that last phone call with my mother, but the training to follow a rigid, restrictive script runs so deep! I believe that the only way to break genetic ties, the flesh, is by the Spirit, so this is just about freeing myself as it is about her.
This message "From Egypt to Canaan" is quite confrontational, but actually it doesn't speak to whether a person is saved or lost. The inference is that all those who'd been covered by the blood of the Passover lamb were indeed saved...
and yet they died in the wilderness.
It's the message which woke me up to the fact that I had not even been covered by the blood of Christ, but only wrapped up in religious notions.
And now it's the message which directs me to share the truth lest I take another lap around the mountain. I can't explain, but it's like she's daring me, Hops... just daring me to spill it. What I hear her saying is.. "alright, you think you've got it all sorted out and you don't need to jump through my hoops anymore, let's hear it!! What's NEW??!!"
It's time I respond. If I skip this step, then I'll feel like a fake, but this isn't an ultimatum... it's just the missing piece, after which I can live out the rest of the lesson, in forgiveness, with proper boundaries.
Thanks for listening and for trying to understand... this has helped alot.
Love to you, too, friend,
Hope
-
it's the load of truth which I've never spoken.
What I feel charged with is to break the chains binding me to this "keeping up appearances" monster... that creature which represents to me a living death.
Oh I know that monster. I loathe it too.
I am sure you'll do it well and wisely. Only thought I have, if it's helpful, it to check in with yourself, in deep quiet, to make sure you confront her from a position of strength and deeply free choice. Rather than because she's pulled your strings again (as in a dare). Know what I mean?
xo
Hops
-
it's the load of truth which I've never spoken.
What I feel charged with is to break the chains binding me to this "keeping up appearances" monster... that creature which represents to me a living death.
Oh I know that monster. I loathe it too.
I am sure you'll do it well and wisely. Only thought I have, if it's helpful, it to check in with yourself, in deep quiet, to make sure you confront her from a position of strength and deeply free choice. Rather than because she's pulled your strings again (as in a dare). Know what I mean?
xo
Hops
Yes, I know what you mean, Hops... but I feel that she's not pulling strings anymore unless my response to her is either angry confrontation or refusal to communicate; and till now, I've been torn between those two.
God is offering me a third option - His way... the way I've learned from my pastor and, to a certain extent, from my husband. This way goes entirely against my mother's entire belief system, because it doesn't reject the person, only the lie. To extend that grace to her means humbling myself, which is the thing I see Jonah refused to do and thus consigned himself to whale seminary... and it's stinky in those whale bellies.
You see, I haven't written here about the things I've done long ago in the past, to offend her... and she and I have never discussed those things, either... but they've also been returning to memory to trip me up and make me reluctant to engage. After all, transparency goes both ways. So I think and feel that what I need to add into my message is an acknowledgement of my own share, along with a sincere apology... not in an attempt to get her to reciprocate, but just to bring my own past to closure. I want to do that for myself... not as confession, because she already knows, but to put it to rest, since that was never done and has only contributed to my sense of being a shadow of a person.
No matter which way I look at it, my parents have had such a tremendous impact on my life that I would not feel complete if I avoided this opportunity to share myself with them. I have to resist the urge to wonder whether it's even worth explaining, because that's how my mother views people... she wouldn't bother. I believe that's a very wrong attitude... to just write people off that way. Very wrong. This is a major paradigm shift for me... to stop "trying to prove that I'm not like her" and just follow through with determination in doing what I believe is right. It's differentiation, finally, completely.
I am me. That's what's new.
Much love to you and appreciation,
Hope
-
Certain Hope,
You've been there for me through a LOT on this board, and it's my turn to give some input to what you've shared.
The one thing that gnawed at me from the entire reading of your post, was just 2 words.
BE CAREFUL!
Laura
-
Certain Hope,
You've been there for me through a LOT on this board, and it's my turn to give some input to what you've shared.
The one thing that gnawed at me from the entire reading of your post, was just 2 words.
BE CAREFUL!
Laura
((((((((Laura))))))) Thank you so much... I'm truly touched by your caring thoughts and words.
I really feel like I have nothing to lose but any remnants of false pride... because just in talking through this, the amount of integration I'm feeling within myself is absolutely amazing. It's really like all the bits and pieces of me which have been scattered willy nilly are coming together into one whole. It's helping me to realize that I don't want to hurt either one of my parents, or place any blame... just for once, be who I now know that I am in front of them, openly. This is how I am at home, with my husband and kids... I mean, this is how I talk with them... and to be any different before my parents would be my problem, my bad, not theirs. I know that some people can't take that depth of transparency, but that's okay... doesn't have to stop me from trying. Getting rid of the anger is really giving me a much more objective view of this whole mess and that's a wonderful blessing! :)
Thanks again!
Love,
Hope
-
Hope, my sister in the Lord, I'm so glad you wrote back and reassured me that you are going to be safe and ok.
The only thing else I want to lovingly caution you about, is that, when we were raised by manipulative parents, we, too began using some of those tactics in our own relationships. Be careful to not do what I used to do a LOT...be careful not to purposely BAIT your parents.
I remember when things were ending with Kay, I'd say things, just to get her to react in exactly the way I knew she would, so that I could feel more powerful over her and thereby get a little bit more of myself back from her. I realize now that it was wrong on my part, but back then I sincerely didn't care. She hurt me deeper than anyone ever has, and I wanted to FORCE HER TO FEEL REMORSE of some kind for it. Even in all my efforts though, to this day, i'm sure she really has not one more ounce of empathy in her nor regret over our lost relationship.
I also have to even now watch that I don't bait my own bio mother. I know if I tell her that one of my children are going to do something she disapproves, she will go off into a rant over it. She is MAJORLY PARANOID, and I get some of my own paranoia from her. For years I'd say things KNOWING she would go on and on, telling me how dangerous it was, how someone will take my children away from me from social services, how I don't want the neighbors to see my child up in that tree, lest they report me...blah blah blah. Now, I don't try and bait her, but I do know when she's reacting very easily.
Just some thoughts,
~Laura
-
Hope, my sister in the Lord, I'm so glad you wrote back and reassured me that you are going to be safe and ok.
The only thing else I want to lovingly caution you about, is that, when we were raised by manipulative parents, we, too began using some of those tactics in our own relationships. Be careful to not do what I used to do a LOT...be careful not to purposely BAIT your parents.
I remember when things were ending with Kay, I'd say things, just to get her to react in exactly the way I knew she would, so that I could feel more powerful over her and thereby get a little bit more of myself back from her. I realize now that it was wrong on my part, but back then I sincerely didn't care. She hurt me deeper than anyone ever has, and I wanted to FORCE HER TO FEEL REMORSE of some kind for it. Even in all my efforts though, to this day, i'm sure she really has not one more ounce of empathy in her nor regret over our lost relationship.
I also have to even now watch that I don't bait my own bio mother. I know if I tell her that one of my children are going to do something she disapproves, she will go off into a rant over it. She is MAJORLY PARANOID, and I get some of my own paranoia from her. For years I'd say things KNOWING she would go on and on, telling me how dangerous it was, how someone will take my children away from me from social services, how I don't want the neighbors to see my child up in that tree, lest they report me...blah blah blah. Now, I don't try and bait her, but I do know when she's reacting very easily.
Just some thoughts,
~Laura
Thank you so much, Laura. It did used to be, many years ago, that I'd tell my mother things that were happening with my kids' dad, knowing the response she'd give, but I don't think that was baiting. I was just so enmeshed with her, thinking that she was the only one with whom I could share these things, on whom I could depend... it was pathetic.
I've tried several times to compose a letter to send along with this Bible message I'm mailing them, but it keeps getting messy. There's just no way to get into it without exposing the "dirt" and I'm not interested in her remorse toward me. If anything, I'd like her to make things right with God and with my Dad.
Last night I prayed about it alot, because in the course of trying to write, I was remembering even more things and my own anger kept flaring up.
I told God that I am willing to let it go, but He will have to show me how.
This morning, after reading your post here again just now, something came to me and I'd like to share it with you...it's in Matthew 8 and also Luke 9.
Here it is out of Luke 9, in the New Living Translation:
59 He said to another person, "Come, be my disciple."
The man agreed, but he said, "Lord, first let me return home and bury my father."
60 Jesus replied, "Let those who are spiritually dead care for their own dead. Your duty is to go and preach the coming of the Kingdom of God."
61 Another said, "Yes, Lord, I will follow you, but first let me say good-bye to my family."
62 But Jesus told him, "Anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of God."
Does that not say it all? Here I was looking to bury something that simply needs to be left behind. All I had to say was, Lord, I can't do this. And there's my answer. God is so good.
Much love to you, Laura.. thanks for making me think!
Hope