Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on August 19, 2007, 10:43:25 AM
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Wow!
I started out looking for info on the topic of shy extraverts/extroverts and didn't get far... yet. This article caught my eye and provides so much insight, I had to share it here. Excerpts only... it's 9 pages... but the whole thing is well worth reading.
The very first statement grabbed me: " Shyness is an over generalized response to fear--and its easy to beat, once you understand this. "
from Are You Shy? by Bernardo Carducci & Philip G. Zimbardo
http://psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-19951101-000030&page=1 (http://psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-19951101-000030&page=1)
If only 15 to 20 percent of infants are born shy and nearly 50 percent of us are shy in adulthood, where do all the shy adults come from? The only logical answer is that shyness is acquired along the way.
One powerful source is the nature of the emotional bond parents forge with their children in the earliest years of life. According to Paul Pilkonis, children whose parenting was such that it gave rise to an insecure attachment are more likely to end up shy. Children form attachments to their care givers from the routine experiences of care, feeding, and caressing. When caretaking is inconsistent and unreliable, parents fail to satisfy the child's need for security, affection, and comfort, resulting in insecure bonds. As the first relationship, attachment becomes the blueprint for all later relationships. Although there are no longitudinal studies spotlighting the development of shyness from toddlerhood to adulthood, there is research showing that insecure early attachment can predict shyness later on.
"The most damnable part of it is that this insecure attachment seems to become self-fulfilling," observes Pilkonis. Because of a difficult relationship to their parents, children internalize a sense of themselves as having problems with all relationships. They generalize the experience--and come to expect that teachers, coaches, and peers won't like them very much.
These are the narcissistically vulnerable--the wound to the self is early and deep, and easily evoked. They are quick to become disappointed in relationships, quick to feel rejection, shame, ridicule. They are relentlessly self-defeating, interpreting even success as failure. "They have negative perceptions of themselves and of themselves in relation to others that they hold onto at all costs," says Pilkonis. (Sounds like the early stages of what can develop into NPD to me!)
And check this out, please:
Biology and relationship history are not the sole creators of shyness.
Culture counts, too. Shyness exists universally, although it is not experienced or defined the same way from culture to culture.
Even Zimbardo's earliest surveys hinted at cultural differences in shyness: Japanese and Taiwanese students consistently expressed the highest level of shyness, Jewish students the lowest. With these clues, Zimbardo took himself to Japan, Israel, and Taiwan to study college students. The cross-cultural studies turned up even greater cultural differences than the American survey. In Israel, only 30 percent of college-age students report being shy--versus 60 percent in Japan and Taiwan.
From conversations with foreign colleagues and parents, Zimbardo acquired unprecedented insights into how culture shapes behavior in general, and more specifically the cultural roots of shyness. The key is in the way parents attribute blame or praise in the performance of their children. When a child tries and fails at a task, who gets the blame? And when a child tries and succeeds, who gets the credit?
In Japan, if a child tries and succeeds, the parents get the credit. So do the grandparents, teachers, coaches, even Buddha. If there's any left over, only then is it given to the child. But if the child tries and fails, the child is fully culpable and cannot blame anyone else. An "I can't win" belief takes hold, so that children of the culture never take a chance or do anything that will make them stand out. As the Japanese proverb states, "the nail that stands out is pounded down." The upshot is a low-key interpersonal style. Kids are likely to be modest and quiet; they do little to call attention to themselves. In fact, in studies of American college students' individuation tendencies--the endorsement of behaviors that will make a person stand out, unique, or noticed--Asian students tend to score the lowest. They are much less likely to speak or act up in a social gathering for fear of calling attention to themselves.
In Israel, the attributional style is just the opposite. A child who tries gets rewarded, regardless of the outcome. Consider the Yiddish expression kvell, which means to engage in an outsize display of pride. If a child tries to make a kite, people kvell by pointing out what a great kite it is. And if it doesn't fly, parents blame it on the wind. If a child tries and fails in a competitive setting, parents and others might reproach the coach for not giving the child enough training. In such a supportive environment, a child senses that failure does not have a high price--and so is willing to take a risk. With such a belief system, a person is highly likely to develop chutzpah, a type of audacity whereby one always take a chance or risk--with or without the talent. Children of such a value system are more apt to speak up or ask someone to dance at a party without overwhelming self-consciousness.
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And this:
Without a circle of close friends or relatives, people are more vulnerable to risk. Lacking the opportunity to share feelings and fears with others, isolated people allow them to fester or escalate. What's more, they are prone to paranoia; there's no one around to correct their faulty thinking, no checks and balances on their beliefs. We all need someone to tell us when our thinking is ridiculous, that there is no Mafia in suburban Ohio, that no one is out to get you, that you've just hit a spate of bad luck.
Research continues...
Hope
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I know one thing. I am an extrovert and am a bit shy. My mom is an introvert and goes out of her way to connect with people-especially those of importance. My H is shy and I am convinced it is because he was forced to be silent as a child. Me? My self esteem was eroded throughout my life and I am afraid of being ridiculed and hushed. I am getting over it and my H is trying too as he was put into a position to sell his services at his job. As we push through those insecurities we win.
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The Attachment Theory makes a LOT of sense! Imagine a newborn attempting to attach to an Nmother...especially if the newborn has birth defects. That is a formula for the child to potentially wind up shy from the non-stop abuse (mental, physical, emotional, etc.) from the Nmother because a "DEFECTIVE makes her look bad" to her friends and neighbors.
No wonder I tend to hide when confronted with new situations!
Bones
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Hi hope,
I know you read this on my thread but even though it describes me and about buried emotions, I was painfully shy--had nothiing to say, as I would suspect my feelings were not taken into consideration as 1/5 kids.
Love Izzy
1.)
To this day, his anger is so deeply buried that his surface is passive, sometimes like there's no life in him. He’s terrified of his own or anyone's anger. All his life's energy, his spirit, is buried deeply with his anger.
2.)
The pain of shame comes when you believe that something in life has damaged you, perhaps permanently and beyond repair. Maybe you were abused, ridiculed, or neglected as a child. Maybe your family hides some dark secret, or you have been involved in some activity you deem subhuman. Whatever the cause, you see yourself as defective and worthless, and every day for you is a "walk of shame."
The pain of shame forces you to fear being exposed for who you really are. Thus you do one of two things: you work desperately to be perfect, to be above scrutiny, or you withdraw from life and don't even try to measure up.
3.) Emotions are feelings that have been suppressed/repressed in our very early years, primarily during our infancy and toddler years.
A major inner turmoil forms early when we are taught by our adult caregivers actions not to allow our self to feel our feelings
4.) In the recovery process dealing with feelings IS NOT A " BLAME GAME". Even though the origin of emotional trauma can be traced to our early childhood as a result of actions of our caregivers the original " act " can be attributed to in most cases as “Innocent Ignorance".
"The responsible course of action is to take the responsibility ourselves to heal our emotional trauma and do not pass the abuse onto anyone else! Not even the alleged originator and especially do not dump it on innocent children!"
I am not blaming anyone, as we do the best we can with what we know and what to do with it. I know I made mistakes with my daughter, and I’m not sure the therapist can connect my head thoughts to all the emotions that are trapped inside.
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i, too, was painfully shy. i remember vividly being in the supermarket with my M. i was small enough to be in the front of the shopping cart, you know, where kids sit and their legs stick out. the woman at the deli counter said, 'oh! aren't you cute!' and i barfed all over my M.
i also threw up for half the year in kindergarten; every single day when i got to school.
good heavens.
i'm still shy, but thank goodness stopped throwing up on people.
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Kelly,
Yup... pushing through.
I know how I was as a child, and what I became as an adult,
but I don't believe that either of those models is my God-given personality and
the Myers-Briggs type testing only creates more questions in my mind.
The results of one such online assessment gave me 82% ISFP and 83% ESFP..
okay, so I am both? So it feels.
Then there's 74% ESTP and 62% ISTP...
yeah huh. lol.
I take all of these tests and theories with a grain of salt, and yet, I do sense alot of internal changes
in the way I'm functioning. My thought is that shyness, some inherent, but most a consequence of parenting,
is the confusion-factor here. So... tracing that shyness back to its roots and understanding its effects
seems to be the way to allow for greater expression in life... and more satisfying relationships!
Good theory?
To the best of my recollection, in the midst of extreme turmoil in dealing with my kids' dad and his
mess years ago, my "type" was INFJ. Now, that particular profile fits me only to 34%... that's quite a shift.
Rather than just floating through the rest of my life as I've always done, I'd like to take a more deliberate approach
toward directing the flow... because, so far, it's sure not been too positively productive.
Bones,
Yes! In my situation, I know that having any personality unique and separate from my mother would be considered a "defect" in her eyes.
Dear Bones, I hope it's okay to say... if you've spoken of it here on the board, I've missed it... is the example you mentioned
of "birth defects" relative to you personally? Hugs to you... I'll wait to hear more (or less) before plunging blindly on here...
Izzy,
Thank you for posting that summary here... it all ties in directly here. I'm trying to take an objective look at the different
circumstances which work together to create such shy withdrawal and also to look deeper into the aspects of shame which may be involved.
"The pain of shame forces you to fear being exposed for who you really are..."
See, I'm not sure who I thought I really was then... it's all very fuzzy and I don't have the more direct, obvious forms of abuse to to which to connect and relate it all. I need a deeper understanding, I guess... must be tied in with my 50/50 needing-so-many-words- to-express-myself disability. :) I don't feel like I outgrew my shyness like some folks may do. Feels more like it was always an artificial thing from the beginning... not so inborn. I can't explain.
Enough,
That really is so painful... almost like your whole body worked together to expel the attention being directed your way.
Hugs to you... you must have been so frightened! I wish that we could remember what went through our minds at those times.
Maybe it wasn't a matter of thoughts, but surely there were some... some ideas behind the fear.
Trying to understand something with the brain that is so far beyond the intellectual realm is boggling, I know... and maybe
not even possible... but I just feel like I have to try.
Love to all... more info coming soon.
Hope
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hi
I use this example for me to understand shame.
Dad beats one of us kids. Kid cries. We see it happen. Mom doesn't stop him. It's all over
We sit down to dinner together as though nothing happened, and not a word is said about the beating, then or ever.
We know something is wrong, but it's never talked about!
repeat and repeat for all five of us.
Part of everyday growing up, but sure feels wrong. I feel my shame caused my shyness and inability to voice an opinion.
Izzy
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Iz,
Right away, I sense that reading your post puts me into my "head" mode and I think...
didn't anyone get angry? Didn't anyone fight back?
Then I feel... I had emotional beatings and didn't "know" it was wrong, in my head... only felt smaller and smaller and more invisible...
a young child can't reason her way out of what feels so bad.
When nobody says, Stop! and nobody comforts the beaten child, all the wrongness of it gets absorbed... it has to go someplace.
Some seem to click over into anger. I wonder whether those are the "not shy" ones... like my brother, "the star".
He could throw a bigger and much more lively temper tantrum than my mother, whose rage was icy.
I guess your siblings did get angry, but they used you as the object of their tantrums... you didn't fight back...
and neither did I when my brother mocked me and dad called me knucklehead. I just put on my stone face and,,,
"hardy-har-har," they'd say... "c'mon, smile... I thought you and me wuz buddies"
Same shame, different reason, I guess.
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Hi Hope,
I know *I* didn't fight back. I know one sister did, so maybe two, but one of them said she felt that I was the family scapegoat.
So you are on target there!!!!
......and the other I'm sure is an N. We have no contact.
The sis add bro who came out here were the youngest and I know they received their share, but Not as much, if memory serves.
oh the horrors of childhood!
Lovve
Izzy
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ugh, izzy, your story rings so true!
i've been thinking about all that; i know that i came to the defense of my younger brothers (7 and 9 years younger than me) when i was a teenager, but i certainly felt even more wrath for having done that.
so strange; one brother committed suicide at 16 and the other is EXACTLY like our F.
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the woman at the deli counter said, 'oh! aren't you cute!' and i barfed all over my M.
Maybe I should have barfed all over my parents :lol: . But I always "behaved". I have a baby picture from when I was one year old. My mother is sitting on the floor laughing hysterically and I am next to her with my face twisted up into a hideous scowl. That was the face I made any time anyone, friend or stranger, said, "Isn't she cute?" to me. So, my mother had said it in order to get a picture of this face I would make. I guess I was pretty uncomfortable with any kind of attention, even positive attention, from a very early age.
Hope, this research is very, very interesting. Especially the cultural differences. That makes it seem to me that shyness must be learned, at least partly. I think my shyness is from fear. It may have started out as a personality quirk, but I didn't get to fully outgrow it before I got shamed and ridiculed back into my shell.
My youngest son had a friend in high school who was painfully shy and quiet. Her parents were quite worried about her. But they let her do her own thing and over time she came out of her shell. She is still soft-spoken but has self-confidence and many friends. She started out as a smart little girl who would barely speak and ended up as a cheerleader and Jr. Miss contestant by senior year. Now she has a nursing degree and is working as a nurse and living on her own at the age of 21. Her parents just let her be and supported her as she grew and found her voice.
Pennyplant
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(((((((((Izzy))))))))
I'm sorry that no one stood up on your behalf... or on behalf of your siblings... to stop the beatings and abuse.
People get frozen in passivity for different reasons... helplessness and hopelessness combined, or just completely dissociating... God only knows.
In my small family of origin, my mother and dad were capable of presenting a united front against me, on occasion.
This would be appropriate, I think, except - on the other hand - whenever it suited them, each would take her/his turn at making me their ally against the other.
And my dad continues this same routine to this day... constantly. I'm back to letting their letters pile up, because I simply don't want to hear it. I'm just beginning to understand the concept of emotional incest.
Mother seems to have dropped it, at last... she now appears to be fully occupying her self-appointed martyr role.
By the way, one of her favorite things now, it seems (past year or so)... she likes to tell me of all her physical problems while pointing out that I'll be just as decrepit as she, all in good time. What the heck. Truly a miserable woman.
Then there were other dynamics...
Once my brother married and was out of the home (when I was 10) he and dad took every opportunity at "family gatherings" to join forces against mother and commiserate with each other about the wicked females in their lives. Also each, in turn, used me as the verbal/emotional punching bag for their anger against my controlling mother...
"you're just like your mother". Why? I didn't say anything. I didn't do anything. I was just a female who breathed and happened to get caught in their crossfire. Brother would make all sorts of outrageous statements against me and nobody ever said a word, including me. I'd just laugh it off... ha ha :?
This is so lame, Izzy... next to all you've been through... but it hurt... years ago, at my oldest daughter's 10th bday party, all the family was at our house. It was a really nice gathering and I was tending to everyone's drinks, etc, picnicing outside... and they were singing. Big show, especially dad and brother... huge, deep voices... and when they finished one song, I asked (hard for me to ask anything...) would they sing "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling"? Arrogant brother looked straight at me with the same evil sneer I've seen on npd-ex and said, "No!". I'm not part of the fun... the in-group... the superior-male-dominated-freak-zone they consider their family. Not belligerent enough for them, not perfect enough for my mother, not anything. Just a servant.
I don't know what it would be like now, if the 4 of us got together.
I know when I was there with just my parents recently, I was completely detached - like a house-guest who did dishes and repaired things in payment for room/board.
I didn't feel like their daughter at all and I wonder whether my mother even noticed. Pretty sure dad did... but of course, no one says a word.
I'm glad that I'm not a part of family gatherings... if there is such a thing anymore... and then I feel guilty because I'm glad.
Much like I felt guilty about being so relieved when npd-ex was gone.
I'm just trying to sort/figure/decide/whatever...
whether it's okay with me that the three of them have no clue how their dysfunction affected me. Better yet, is it okay with God?
Awfully late to even bring it up... what would be the point? After all, it's no big deal for a "normal" person who's not so sensitive.
They never wanted to know me before. Too much trouble, I guess.
So now I just put this down into words and I feel it... because I never did before, completely... Iphi's cerebral N thread brought it out full force and talking with you about feelings has worked it out. I feel it big time.
I've never before in my life been equipped to face what I'd become... and why.
And now there's no relationship to build on with my family... and not much time to start one... and I'd rather not try... because I'm shy.
heh
Or am I?
Love,
Hope
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Well, after all that, now I see where the shame came from... the part of the shame that I could reason out, anyway...
I was ashamed at being so stupid, as I saw it, for feeling hurt by such silly things.
That particular shame doesn't come from my mother's issues at all... but it still makes my ears red and leaves me feeling very small.
on edit: Wait, yes it does come from her... she's the one who enforced the stoic image... but dad and brother are the ones who brought out the shame with their crass, hateful, passive-aggressive "humor" and... oh sheesh, maybe they're all 3 N's. No empathy?
Yeah, that about covers it.
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Hi Hope,
Yes, I believe fear is at the root of shyness. I lost almost all my memories from childhood. Was, however, left with a few still pictures in my mind. One of the still pictures was a snapshot of that awful moment in time when my personhood was taken from me. I am introverted by nature. I like that about me. I think I was made that way, meant to be that way, but the anxiety, the fear, the shyness that was pounded/planted in me that fateful day, has bedeviled me since I was 2 1/2 years old. It is awful.
tt
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hi Hope,
whatever.....a hurt is a hurt is a hurt. There must be an end to it, or it settles someplace inside where you can't get at it ....(I think it is in the small intestine somewhere, clinging, like red meat, to the walls.....we all need a high colonic.... I heard that John Wayne had 69# of red meat clinging to his walls, when he died)
...oops off topic...
Today I keep going over and over how I put that man in his place and have saved me years of heartache. The words just flowed out naturally and not angrily, and I wish I had done it 12 years ago. We need to speak up for others and for ourselves and it takes good, loving parents to raise us, love us, and teach us the right ways, so we can get on with life.
I sure wish I had that ability all my life rather than at the tail end of it....
...and fear? well I believe I have been motivated by fear...to do a good job, to be punctual, to never give up, to be honest & trustworthy or..................(thinking back to the beatings.)
wow Lookkee me telling myself I have good points!
hiya tt
I am not sure I understand your post, but a "fateful day, has bedeviled me since I was 2 1/2 years old. It is awful. that is awful....when bad memories that won't go away.....
God help us all!
Love Izzy
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Hi Iz,
What I meant was that one of the still photos I carried in my mind all my life documented the day my sense of agency, that Dr. G. talks about as vital for a child to develope with a healthy sense of self, was taken from me by a bully Nparent. From that moment on, I was full of anxiety and fear. I was shy.
tt
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hi tt
Oh I thought maybe you had been sexually assaulted--- God Forbid!
Are you shy now?
What part are you working on?
such as, I am working on uncovering my feelings.
Love
Izzy
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Hi Iz,
I still have Generalized Anxiety Disorder. I'm rather reclusive. Don't like crowds or frau frau anything (well maybe exquisite food occasionally). I love people. I'm not a cynic. I'm still optimistic in my generl outlook.
Still introverted.
What am I working on? I think I'm working on accentuating and giving to others the good positive things I know myself to be. I'm working on walking into eternity with the peace of God in my heart.
tt
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tt
do oyu have meds for GAD?
I have Lyrica
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Maybe I should have barfed all over my parents :lol: . But I always "behaved". I have a baby picture from when I was one year old. My mother is sitting on the floor laughing hysterically and I am next to her with my face twisted up into a hideous scowl. That was the face I made any time anyone, friend or stranger, said, "Isn't she cute?" to me. So, my mother had said it in order to get a picture of this face I would make. I guess I was pretty uncomfortable with any kind of attention, even positive attention, from a very early age.
Hope, this research is very, very interesting. Especially the cultural differences. That makes it seem to me that shyness must be learned, at least partly. I think my shyness is from fear. It may have started out as a personality quirk, but I didn't get to fully outgrow it before I got shamed and ridiculed back into my shell.
My youngest son had a friend in high school who was painfully shy and quiet. Her parents were quite worried about her. But they let her do her own thing and over time she came out of her shell. She is still soft-spoken but has self-confidence and many friends. She started out as a smart little girl who would barely speak and ended up as a cheerleader and Jr. Miss contestant by senior year. Now she has a nursing degree and is working as a nurse and living on her own at the age of 21. Her parents just let her be and supported her as she grew and found her voice.
Pennyplant
Penny,
Do you think that you understood the meaning of the "Isn't she cute?" at one year? I'm imagining maybe it was the tone of voice in which it'd be said... the condescension... or maybe more than the tone of the speaker it was the reaction you saw on your mother's face whenever someone would comment on your.... you-know-what-ness. ?? maybe? Wow, you were tuned in. I guess we all were tuned in... long before we had words to express our views.
I always behaved, too. A good little conformist... well, almost always.
The cultural research intrigued me, too. Any "praise" (if there was any) was greatly overshadowed by the unspoken, but crystal clear, expectation for me of perfection... and always, always, I was certain that I'd be nothing without my mother. No doubt that's why one of my clearest memories of young childhood is a terrible fear that she'd die.
Your son's friend.... I read that part three times, thinking... how could she just miraculously turn out so well-adjusted and confident? And finally I saw the key ingredient: Her parents were quite worried about her. That concern makes all the difference.
Hugs, Penny... thank you.
Love,
Hope
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Dear Izzy,
Are you feeling angry? I am... and it's a waste of energy, I think.
This is where thinking comes in handy, I "think"... some things are simply not worth the expense of breathe, ink, electricity, postage, whatever. I keep thinking, "In your anger, sin not." So... anger's not the issue, it's the disposing of it which can get tacky.
Thank you for the reminder about good points. I do believe that I have some, too :)
Without fear as the motivation, all that's left is love. For the sake of love... I'll let the anger go.
Dear tt,
I'm sorry. I don't know what happened to you at 2 1/2... your sense of agency... I had to look that up and read about it.
Also, I read Dr. G's essay again... I'd forgotten.
Will be reading more, too... because I think there's more I can do to give my own children a strengthened sense of agency.
It is apparently not a thing frozen in time, but cumulative.
And I like your goal... to walk into eternity with the peace of God in your heart.
When I feel contentious, there's no peace... and then I remember - only by pride comes contention.
Then I stick my head under some cold running water in the kitchen sink and try to snap out of it.
Works every time.
Love,
Hope
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I think it was because attention was being focused on me. My mother always referred to "the little old ladies" who would say this to me in stores or on the street and then get that face in return. So, they were people I didn't know and they were probably getting very close to me. One time I did let a newspaper photographer take a picture of me in my stroller. That picture was in the paper with the caption, "Cute!" And I wasn't making that face! It was around the same age.
I do remember being a little older and having a friend of my mother's notice me and when I got shy, she said, "Oh, she's shy" and that made me feel even more embarrassed. So, by then I understood what people were saying and seem to have perceived it as criticism or maybe just something not good. It sounds like my nature was at the least very sensitive. I will have to do some reading on that after all. It seems to be an important part of who I am.
Yeah, my parents never worried about me in a helpful way. It was more like, what is wrong with you that such and such is not happening (not popular, not having any dates, etc.)? My father worried that I was too much like him and he always thought something was wrong with him (much later he discovered Asperger's Syndrome and felt that diagnosis fit him and explained a lot about his life.) I know now he was worried because he wanted me to have a better life than he did, be happier. But when he told me he was worried I was too much like him, I just felt even crappier.
Ah, sometimes I just want to leave it all behind. I get tense trying to figure it all out. That is part of my nature as the Individualist. Too much thinking and internal focus. I want to keep my nature but balance things out a little better is all.
((((((((Good night all))))))))))))
Love, PP
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Hi Hope,
I have some vague anger at that guy who phoned me, but I think I've finally stopped his 'lording things over me". I hated that!
Otherwise I am okay, as things go Got 4 feelings now!! :lol: COUNT THEM...... Four
I was emailed the Minutes to upload to the Website but was busy here, then suddenly remembered I cannot upload August Minutesd until Sept meeting when they are approved, so a quick email back and no work today.
I grocery-shopped, to replenish what Sis and Bro ate and wound around Black Mountain for a long time trying to bypass the construction to get where I was going. Reminded me of when the 'kids' where here and I was looking for Field St--but was interrupted by construction--- and Bro asked me if I was lost. I said, "Yes. I'm lost but I know where I am! :lol: meaning one of four directions would find my street.
Also just finished my laundry! Can you fold a fitted bedsheet while sittting and folding it 'in the air'? :lol: :lol:
We must always remember our good ponts!!
and Hi PP
Other people, I think, ought not point out a child's shyness within the child's hearing range. It sounds like something bad and makes shyness worse........
--or any other thing such as my daughter had a raspberry birthmark on her lip, shoulder and butt cheelk. I made immediate signals if anyone was going to say anything and she was never embarrassed about it.
Dr. said it ought to fade by age 5 and I thought that would be ok, re kindergarten. it worled. All gone and no plastic surgery.
Love
Izzy
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Izzy :D As I recall, the expert said there are just 4 basic feelings... and all the rest are learned responses, so....
you have arrived, my dear!! 8)
You mean I am sposed to fold those fitted sheets and not just roll them into a semi rectangular blob? :o
I would think you were amazing even if you didn't have such folding talent! :) And it sounds like you have had a most productive day!
My brain is firing on only 3 cylinders, but tomorrow's a fresh beginning... thank God. I am about to fold... up.
As Pp said ( Hi, Pp :) ) balance is the goal and I have dug a bit too far, too fast, I think. Dreaded this shyness thing... still dreading the "highly sensitive" thing... and my dread cells are worn to a frazzle. I think that if my feelings agree, I'm about ready to lay the past for rest and focus on the now. The less shy, slightly less sensitive, far more aware... now.
Yeah, sounds good :)
Love,
Hope
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Hi Ladies,
Here are a couple of Dr. G's articles. I'm as big a fan today as I was the first time I read them.
Introduction
Introduction"If I asked you what children need in order to be psychologically healthy, you would probably answer: love and attention. Of course, you would be right--love and attention are essential for every child. But, there is a third psychological need critical to the emotional well-being of children: "voice."
What is "voice"? It is the sense of agency that makes a child confident that he or she will be heard, and that he or she will positively impact his or her environment. With this sense of agency comes the implicit belief that one's core has value. Exceptional parents grant a child a voice equal to theirs the day that child is born. And they respect that voice as much as they respect their own. How does a parent provide this gift? By following three "rules:"
Assume that what your child has to say about the world is just as important as what you have to say.
Assume that you can learn as much from them as they can from you.
Enter their world through play, activities, discussions: don't require them to enter yours in order to make contact." (From Giving Your Child Voice)
Did you receive "voice" as a child? Were the important people around you, your spouse/partner/boyfriend/girlfriend, children, parents given this gift? If not, you or those closest to you may be locked in a battle for emotional survival without knowing it. Voicelessness takes many forms: relationship problems, depression, anxiety, over and under-achieving, narcissism, addictions, etc. All represent self-defeating or failed attempts to solve an unsolvable problem: needing one's very essence to be seen, heard, and appreciated by people incapable of doing this.
I have appreciated the many comments I have received. I look forward to hearing from you.
Little Voices
(Prior version excerpted in a guest column at The Natural Child Project)
If parents do not enter a young child's world, but instead require him or her to enter theirs to make contact, the resulting damage can last a lifetime. In "Voicelessness: Narcissism," I presented one way adults react having experienced this scenario in childhood: they constantly try to re-inflate their leaky "self." However, different temperaments spawn different adjustments: some children, by their very nature, are incapable of aggressively seeking attention. If no one is entering their world, they unconsciously employ a different strategy. They diminish their voice, make as few demands as possible, and bend themselves like a pretzel to fit their parents world.
To secure their place in the family, these children often become expert in intuiting their parents' feelings and moods and automatically responding in ways they deem helpful. In effect, they become good parents to their own parents.
What happens when these children enter adulthood? Depending on personality and history, there are different possibilities. Here are two:
Some become gentle, sensitive, and non-assuming adults. They are also generous and caring, often volunteering for charitable organizations, animal shelters, and the like. Frequently they feel other people's pain as if it were their own, and are racked by guilt if they cannot somehow relieve this distress. Many seem to tiptoe in and out of rooms. Unfortunately these qualities also allow them to be used and abused by other people, for they are unable to stop giving without feeling they are bad or unworthy. Having a secure "place" and providing for others' emotional needs are inextricably woven together. If they are not providing, they feel they are no longer part of anyone's world, and they have no value to anyone. Their self-esteem is completely dependent upon responding to others needs. In extreme cases, their "voicelessness" is so complete, so consuming, these "little voices" literally are silent for long periods of time. This is not a form of passive aggressive behavior (as has often been suggested) or even a retreat from relationships. Unless asked direct questions, they simply can't think of anything to say. "What do you want?" (now, this week, this year, during your lifetime) is impossible for them to answer. Early in their childhood they stopped wanting because no one paid any attention to their wishes. Their place in life was to know what everyone else wanted--this is the only place they felt comfortable and unthreatened.
Other "little voices" ultimately become aware that they have sacrificed their independence, their "voice," in bending around others, and become negative and bitter. They are exceptionally sensitive to what they perceive as the non-responsiveness of people around them--precisely because they compare their own generous nature to the words and actions of others. Almost everyone comes up short. As a result, they are viewed by others as "critical" and difficult to get along with. They are easily slighted and prone to angry outbursts. The theme of their anger is often: look what I've done for you, and look what I get back. And yet they are trapped, because if they stop anticipating everyone's needs they feel invisible. Sometimes, these "little voices" live with (or close to) their demanding and unappreciative parents until the parents die; they deeply resent siblings who managed to escape.
"Little voices" are the polar opposites of narcissists. The former relinquishes all "voice," while the latter gobbles it up. When the two are matched in a relationship, the potential for physical and emotional abuse is high. Domestic violence cases often involve "little voices" and "narcissists." Yet, the under-entitlement of "little voices" and over-entitlement of narcissists are both methods of adapting to the same phenomenon: childhood "voicelessness." Interestingly, the same voice-depriving family can produce "little voices" and "narcissists." Why is this so? Genetic factors probably play the biggest role. Narcissism requires aggression, "little voice," passivity. Birth order may also count: if one child strives aggressively for family resources, it is that much harder for the next in line to compete using a similar method.
In this essay, I have talked about extreme cases of "little voice." But in fact, many of the people who come to see me share, at least to some extent, the experience of "little voice." They have unconsciously diminished their presence in order to find a niche in their family and a place in the world. To be seen and heard, they feel they must take care of, or bend around, others. Luckily, "little voices" can be helped. The healing process requires a therapist who understands the historical roots of the problem and is capable of developing a client's "voice" through a genuine, empathic relationship.
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My Dear Hope-
I am sad about the hurt that you have suffered. Whatever your residual pain, you are a very dear, friendly , sharing and encouraging person. Your interest in others comes through in your posts- despite any shyness, you have emerged a loving, and lovable creature!!! Anyone who does not treasure your special qualities is missing out, big time!!!
Love to you!!
Changing
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Hiya Hope,
I DITTO changing, you come across, as she says, and almost as though you don't have a care in the world. Yet we all do. I lean into frivolity when I don't know what to say.
so I have arrived. I meant FOUR times but now I must categorize which feeling was when..................always working!
AH! The fitted sheets--whatever you choose,my dear!
Yep! Think more on the shyness thing. I am not shy now, only about dying--who will see me without my makeup?
Thanks TT
I so much believe that I never had a voice, as a little child, but if I had had one, I would have "mauled a few people" on my way up.
I am just getting my voice now and that is my assertiveness that is setting me free from people who had 'bound and gagged' me. I made a really good move, as I specified on my Assertive thread, and being I have known this man since I was 28 (40 years) this is the first I feel free of him. The FIRST! because I used my voice!
Voiceless no more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Love Izzy
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Hi Hope,
I too ditto everything changing said (couldn't say it better).
I also wanted to thank you for posting this information. I always thought I was shy - but am now wondering how much of that belief was nature versus nurture. [on edit - meant to say lack of nurture ]
I have been thinking back over my childhood, and am seeing another pattern emerge - one where my being shy fitted in with who they needed me to be to fulfill their beliefs or needs rather than who I was at all.
It has been another big eye-opener. Thank you.
Much love,
Peace
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Dear Peace,
We took on all these characteristics that were not really ours---didn't we ? I am slowly getting back(reclaiming) what my M stole. I have so many different traits,( that I like,) that I simply gave up in the frantic search for her to love me.
MY M is like Bones's friend. She reminds me of those children's toys that are inflatable clowns with a weight at the bottom that you punch. You keep punching it and it keeps coming back up. That is my M. There is NO learning curve-- like Bones's friend.
If Bones had ANOTHER graduation, the friend would do the SAME thing. It would be 'instant replay"It is the same thing with the "trips " with the friend's' mother.
Peace, I see us as excavating the real self--inside-- which has so mnay wonderful traits. I bet that you have so many,many traits that you just pushed aside so that you could survive in that house of horrors.
I know that you do .I can hear so many wonderful personality traits right over the internet. Love Ami
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Dear Ami,
I am AMAZED at how insidious a lot of the abuse was, and how much it molded my personality. Although sometimes painful to uncover these layers, it is sooo wonderfully liberating once you work through it.
I like your description of your M and Bone's friend. When you described that clown, I got a picture in my head of the clown from Stephen King's book IT. (If you are not familiar with it - a very scary clown face). I also thought of my Dad as the energizer bunny from hell (now that was a funny picture :lol:).
Thank you so much for the compliment. I still feel shock when someone compliments me - I never, never had a kind word from my FOO (M, F, and Bro).
You are such a generous and caring person, Ami, thank you again.
With much love,
Peace
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Dear Pennyplant,
Maybe there was something special about that newspaper photographer...
a sparkle in his eyes :)
And also, maybe he didn't get so close as to invade your space. Seems a fact that even the youngest children do know when a person
is genuine... my kids did... and I have a strong hunch that I did, too.
Ahh.. I wish, sometimes, that we could recall what was going through our minds at that age!
And I've been remembering today... when my second daughter was very small, she was always an observer at family gatherings.
I can still see her in the highchair, so somber and serious... just watching. She cwould get very silly, alone with me and also with her older sister... laugh and sing and just be all-around goofy... but when the rest of the family was around, there was a definite change in attitude.
A guardedness.
My other 3 children were much more outgoing and un-"shy" as infants and toddlers.... but not this girl. She seems to have had that inborn... reserved-ness... something I didn't seem to aquire till later, school-aged.
The more I think of all you've said, I'm seeing alot of similarities between what you've expressed about yourself, Penny, and how I imagine my 2nd daughter may have felt.
She's 20 now, and just married this past May... and in many ways, I think that was her "escape"... because I can imagine her feeling pretty crappy at the prospect that she might end up facing the sort of life that I've lived... and yet not know how to choose otherwise.
Also, from a young child, she was fascinated with ufo's and aliens... identifying with little green creatures quite strongly, it seemed.
So now she's jettisoned off to her own planet... and I don't feel that she blames me, but more like she thinks that I wouldn't possibly have a clue how to live a better life, the sort she desires... lots of longings there, I think.
Anyhow, only just pondering... and appreciating more than ever the opportunity to learn your perspective, because I've never before been at a place where I could do that. Was always too bound up in knots to see "me" clearly, let alone anyone else.
So... thank you again... with hugs.
(((((((Changing)))))) & ((((((((Izzy))))))) Thank you so much for your sweet hearts and sayings. I saw your posts this morning when I first logged on and can't tell you how much your thoughts lifted my heart. Been going strong here ever since, out of joy, not duty or to earn... anything... and just really appreciating the difference. (hope that makes sense)
and (((((((Peace))))))) I wrote this in between chores today and just came in to
post it when I saw your notes.
Thank you... and I want to say that I'm with you in that shock at receiving complements.
Although I do receive them from my husband now, for the longest time -especially after npd-ex - my natural internal reaction was... "whatdya want?!" :S Never said that, but that's how it felt. It just seemed so... foreign.
There's been so little that was genuine in life.
But more and more now, I really can't comprehend people living together in families as we did and never, ever offering the slightest word of praise or encouragement... not even so much as a, "you look nice!" Kindness, concern, interest, connection... that's alot to grow up without.
You wrote: "I have been thinking back over my childhood, and am seeing another pattern emerge - one where my being shy fitted in with who they needed me to be to fulfill their beliefs or needs rather than who I was at all."
I hadn't thought of it in those terms... that they needed someone "shy"... the missing actor in their little drama.
Yikes.
I'll have to think on that, but at first blush, it makes sense... they surely didn't need another "star", clown, or queen.
Oh, yes, I think it makes very good sense. Thank you, Peace!
With love,
Hope
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Hi Hope,
I had the same response: whadya want? Whenever someone in my FOO gave me a compliment, it was because they wanted something from me or it was an insult disguised as a compliment.
I have been thinking more about what I wrote "one where my being shy fitted in with who they needed me to be to fulfill their beliefs or needs rather than who I was at all."
I wanted to clarify that I don't think they did this deliberately. It was more that I developed the characteristics of a shy person, because any behavior of mine that didn't fit in with that personality type was put down, sometimes with sly verbal attacks sometimes quite physically.
My mother needed to be the only female in the house - she needed to cater to my father and Bro, and she had a very, very rigid belief system that allowed for no individuality. (A lot of that belief system had to do with children, especially females, being seen but not heard - and that all women should be the fainting wall-flower types who should have someone [a husband] to make all decisions for them and take care of them - [so very, very far from what I believed!] If I so much as expressed that I had a different take on something (no matter how benign), it was ruthlessly mocked and ridiculed. My F on the other hand had to be the center of attention - it was quite comical (and many times ruthlessly abusive) the extent he would go to to make sure all eyes were on him.
Your post has been a real eye-opener - and really has me re-examining yet another assumption that I had that turns out to be not necessarily be true.
Thank you so much!
Peace
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Dear Peace,
This is so helpful... thank you, too!
I understand what you're saying about us fitting into different roles in the family... that it wasn't something they did deliberately.
I'm recognizing that my acting out the role of the compliant one was not a natural thing at all, but due to a combination of fear (shyness) and an observation of the family dynamics... seeing the roles which were already occupied. If not for my brother the "star", I think that I may have more outrightly occupied the position of "individualist", but as it was, I held all of that within... only sporadically letting out a burst - like at 13, when I announced to my mother that I saw no point in continuing music lessons because I clearly was not going any further in that. By the way that she talks now about my youngest daughter (16) now,
I have finally recognized that what she's always wanted was a "music major".
Interesting, because she never plays any music, never attends any concerts, so I think this is some residual notion she has left over from her own upbringing... which she tried to imprint onto me... and now, my daughter.
Anyhow, I think that's when she cut me off - at 13.
I made my attempt at individuating by quitting those lessons... and :P, I was gawn. That was just exactly when I needed to be drawn closer... with acceptance... but from that point on, there was no further discussion, input, counseling, encouragement, help, support, nada... re: my future. I had dared to say that music was not "it", so the rest was up to me. But there was no "me"... she'd already assured that. ouch.
And so, for the rest of my life, there's been this deep sense of failure, glossed over by my own weak attempts to fulfill the other roles I'd seen acted out - the clown, the star, and mostly... the queen. Can't beat 'em? Join 'em.
Big ouch. That one I'm still facing down and trying to mop up consequences with my 2 oldest daughters.
Peace,
My mother needed to be the only female in the house, too. Thank you so much for that clarity and simplicity. That's the bottom line. She wanted me out and out of her way. The thing is, her belief system was the exact opposite of your mother's... she wanted a ruling female - just not ruling over her. Not my style at all... my own belief is somewhere in between... and I'd seen more than enough of her trying to change and rule over my dad to know that was not the way to do a marriage. On the other hand, my dad would share your mom's belief system... lol - oy vey. But he didn't "make it so"... and talk is cheap. I often wish he had... but that's another story.
You wrote:
If I so much as expressed that I had a different take on something (no matter how benign), it was ruthlessly mocked and ridiculed. My F on the other hand had to be the center of attention - it was quite comical (and many times ruthlessly abusive) the extent he would go to to make sure all eyes were on him.
Exactly. I now recognize that all of the "humor" used by both of my parents as mockery and ridicule. I have strong memories of trying to speak with both of them... about anything - just trying to voice a view, an opinion...
and being treated like I didn't have a brain in my head. Nothing I ever said seemed to be taken seriously... and the feelings that created have stuck with me for a lifetime: worthless, inept, dull, not deserving consideration, a waste of time and effort. That's what really set the shyness in stone. Lack of nurture, exactly.
I really appreciate you, Peace... and thank you for bringing this back up.
There's more here, I know. A call from my mother yesterday silenced me for the rest of the day. It's so good to speak again.
There's more to come on this business of shyness. I'm not sure what exactly, but we shall see.
Hope
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This topic of shyness is so intertwined with both shame and high sensitivity, that I'm still researching and putting together bits and pieces. This particular excerpt reminded me of my many dreams in childhood... where someone was after me and I was too frightened to run, but thought that if only I could convince the baddies that I was dead, then I'd be safe.
Also, I found Carol Burnett's comment so interesting... there's a certain element in shyness which does seem like a cry for attention, in some ways, and I think that I've always sensed that and so discovered that it was actually less attention-drawing to at least put on a social face rather than make people feel that you're withdrawn or unsociable. So some of the compensating has been an inverted form of shyness, it seems.
Excerpted from Shyness: What It Is, What to Do About It
by Philip G. Zimbardo (pgs. 31-32)
http://books.google.com/books?id=IU-YYV3IJxMC&pg=PA32&lpg=PA32&dq=shy+extrovert&source=web&ots=rMIXSfP0HD&sig=9_UarDSV0PRV-PBeNtbYiUiJCnk#PPA31,M1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=IU-YYV3IJxMC&pg=PA32&lpg=PA32&dq=shy+extrovert&source=web&ots=rMIXSfP0HD&sig=9_UarDSV0PRV-PBeNtbYiUiJCnk#PPA31,M1)
This section of the book preview discusses the burdens
of the publicly shy person. I'm typing this up because I don't see a way to copy and paste from this google book preview, which is like a picture, not a document ... so here goes:
Remember Rosie Grier?
Philip Zimbardo describes the "low-road route" Rosie took in irder to hide his childhood feelings of inadequacy, by lying low, shutting up, standing short, and if "they" don't go away, at least they won't notice you.
The publicly shy cannot readily communicate their fears, uncertainties, good qualities, and desires to the the appropriate others.
Putting themselves in these nonreturnable self-containers,
they don't get the help, advice, recognition and lvoe everyone needs at one time or another.
.... not being able to ask for help for a personal problem also means a person can't benefit from the expertise, wisdom, and chicken soup that is available.
Then on pg. 32 there's this bit about "Shy Extroverts", which is what I originally set out to explore:
For the shy extrovert...
"nobody else knows how much it takes to pull of that confidence game.
Too much nervous energy is expended in anticipation of the event and wasted on minor details of its execution. Such people may come to be seen by others as overbearing, slave drivers, or on an ego trip. Sadly, even success does not always bring satisfaction. The shy extrovert, all too aware of this tremendous emotional investment, expects perfection as the natural outcome, and is satisfied by nothing less.
Shy extroverts typically surprise their friends or the public when they come out of the closet to declare, "I'm shy."
"No, not you! I mean, you're so successful. You perform in public, you've got friends, you tell jokes, sing, dance, go on dates."
Privately shy performers often escape detection.
They keep their anxiety to themselves, concealing it by well-learned social skills, sometimes drowning it with alcohol, or by avoiding situations where they are not in control.
The book continues with some interesting comments by famous personalities re: their own struggles with shyness and then on pg. 34, there's this comment from Carol Burnett re: the "complex motives of the shy performer"...
" I discovered long ago that shyness is often intertwined with a sort of off-beat selfishness. It's hard to explain, but while you are honestly timid about facing people on the one hand, on the other you are demanding recognition for yourself. You are (fearfully, yes!) saying. 'Look at me! Accept me!' "
On page 58, there's a brief account:
"Sometimes shyness is triggered by the personality of the parent:
My shyness was prompted by my ungrateful sober father, whose disposition can be likened only to Sir Walter Scott's description of his father:
' A man with temper constantly unstrung who disapproved of anything and everything we tried to do to please him; who spoke with a forcefullness that no one dared or could ignore.'
So, shy I was for many years, out of sheer frustration!" ....
....and then, unfortunately, the book preview cuts off, but one statement on pg 168 really intrigues me:
The basic principle behind any program to make you more effectively assertive is action. We have seen over and over again
that inaction is the most characteristic feature of shyness."To act or not to act" is the question to be resolved for the shy person.
Shakespeare's Hamlet dallied around for the entire play before he stopped talking to himself
about whether or not he.... and yup, it cuts off again, but still - plenty to consider here. I've spent alot of moments on inaction and really want to eliminate some of the intensely uncomfortable, lengthy hesitations in my own life.