Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dr. Richard Grossman on August 20, 2007, 11:43:31 PM
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Apparently so, according to an article in the July/August issue of Psychosomatic Medicine. Here's the Yahoo/Reuter's writeup:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070820/hl_nm/silent_marital_spats_dc
Best,
Richard
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Thanks, Dr. G.
Sure makes sense...all that stuffing goes to the arteries...
feelings are fattening.
Hops
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Thanks for the article.
I think voicelessness would dangerous for married men too.
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Ummmm..... I knew something awful was going on inside of my body, along with the silence.....
besides vomiting in my mouth.
On some level.... I knew it could harm or kill me.
Now I know what the mechanics are: /
Thanks, Dr. G.
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Interesting study, thank you for sharing the article. I agree with Bella - the results should be the same for men one would think, but are they? The IBS connection interests me too.
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It's an interesting article, but I'm concerned that this feature has been publicised as part of the study which was set up to look at links between behaviour and heart disease. Most of the research on heart disease is incredibly flawed, as it's skewed in favour of the 'fat is bad - lower your cholesterol' myth,and much research is in fact carried out by pharmaceutical and food industry companies who have huge investments in cholestereol-lowering drugs like Lipitor, and so-called 'low fat' products.
Have a look at www.thegreatcholesterolcon.com (http://www.thegreatcholesterolcon.com)
So, if this reasearch was done by a more independent group, I'd take it more seriously.
Also, it seems to suggest that only women stay quiet in arguments with spouses. Where did they get that idea from?!
Janet
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Dr Grossman,
Thanks for the article. Stress can definitely be a killer, but not in terms of what's presented here, imo.
Janet,
I agree with the perspective at the link you posted... thank you for that!
If I printed it and sent it to my mother, maybe then she'd stop writing.
One of her primary missions in life now is to lower her cholesterol without taking any medications.
As a consequence, she fusses and frets and spiels to anyone who'll listen about all the things which she can't eat and constantly informs us of her great diligence with eliminating all fat from her diet.
Once when she was visiting here, I printed up something to the contrary of her view re: eating shrimp.
She was furious. Furious! She always loved peel-and-eat shrimp... I was trying to show her that it was okay to eat some that I'd prepared for her. Now she loves the notion that she can't have any... thereby solidifying her lifelong role as martyr.
Okay, that settles it. I'm printing the article.
:D
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Hi Janet,
My only hesitation about the article from your link is that The Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons is the house organ of this organization (not a core clinical journal...), per Wikipedia:
A 1966 article in the New York Times described the organization as an "ultra-right-wing... political-economic rather than medical" group, and historically some of its leaders have been members of the John Birch Society.[6]
Currently, the organization opposes mandatory vaccination,[7] universal health care[8] and government intervention in healthcare.[9] The AAPS has characterized the effects of the Social Security Act of 1965, which established Medicare and Medicaid, as "evil" and "immoral",[10] and encouraged members to avoid participating in Medicare and Medicaid.[11][12] AAPS believes that there is no right to medical care, and opposes efforts to implement a national health plan.[13] The organization also opposes the use of evidence-based medicine and practice guidelines as a usurpation of physician autonomy.[14]
AAPS opposes abortion[15] and over-the-counter access to emergency contraception.[16]--etc.
Hops
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Hops,
I realise any group has its backers, and extreme side, but any description going back as far as 1966 would need updating, I think.
Most 'medical' groups are 'political-economic', if only the public knew about it. Other than the final two points in your post (about them opposing abortion and over-the-counter access to emergency contraception), I'd tend to agree with all of the other subjects that the organization opposes, which is why I believe they are talking sense about cholesterol.
Medicare and Medicaid have a bad reputation, outside of the US, for the people that they fail to include, and the cost to the state. The 'right' to state-funded or supoorted medical care is a twentieth century invention, put forward by pharmaceutical groups with an agenda, unfortunately. Mandatory vaccination has been said to be against people's human rights, especially when it has been proven to be harmful (such as the polio vaccine, and possibly MMR). 'Evidence-based medicine' is a loaded term, and depends on who's doing the defining.
I suppose it boils down to whether or not you have faith in the medical profession and the pharmaceutical companies, and the FDA (which has a huge influence on which drugs the UK is allowed to use, too).
I'm afraid I don't have any faith in 'traditional/allopathic/chemical' medicine at all. I've read too much about the dark side of it, and experienced some of it first hand.
And Wikipedia is full of factual errors, generally, so I don't have much faith in that, either! Sorry. :(
Janet
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Hi Dr. G,
Thanks for posting the article - very interesting. I am wondering if a study conducted in adult children who were rendered voiceless in childhood would show similar results. I would not be surprised if it did.
Also wanted to thank you, very much, for this site. It has had a profoundly positive impact on my life.
Thanks
Peace
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It's an interesting article, but I'm concerned that this feature has been publicised as part of the study which was set up to look at links between behaviour and heart disease. Most of the research on heart disease is incredibly flawed, as it's skewed in favour of the 'fat is bad - lower your cholesterol' myth,and much research is in fact carried out by pharmaceutical and food industry companies who have huge investments in cholestereol-lowering drugs like Lipitor, and so-called 'low fat' products.
Also, it seems to suggest that only women stay quiet in arguments with spouses. Where did they get that idea from?!
Janet
I'm glad you mentioned this Janet, thank you!
Interestingly, I had my blood work fully tested this year for haemochomotosis (a blood disorder) that one of my siblings has (I was clear). All my organs were tested for functionality, so it was probably the most thorough health check I've ever had.
I was really surprised by my cholesterol levels and by the results generally. According to the article, I probably should be dead, but I'm in incredibly good shape, especially my heart and cardiovascular system.
I have been quite chubby for the past four years, ever since going through major abdominal surgery which kept me fairly immobile for about a year. I've never managed to lose the extra weight completely, but I don''t particularly care right now either.
Emotionally, I've copped such a beating this past 7 years, having split up with my long term partner under horrible circumstances, then landing in two successive relationships with narcissists, one who beat me. Then I had a Narcissistic boss who caused me incredible stress at work, leading to me quitting my job.
On top of all the emotional stuff I've been through, I drank and sometimes smoked through a lot of this; not huge quantities but almost every day during the most stressful times.
The test showed that my cholesterol levels are a whole percentage below the `minimum' value for the healthy range (which is incredibly good). My blood pressure is lower than average. My heart, kidneys, liver, and blood are in extremely good order. Appearance -wise, my hair and skin and the best they have ever been, and I'm relatively fit from walking around the forest 2 times day, and from sporadic periods at the gym.
The only part of the article I can personally relate to is the fact that I will die one day, lol. Everyone dies.
X Bella
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Bella,
I'm sorry you've had such a bastard few years.
I'm really glad you're past all that, now.
Funny how some people can still be healthy, despite what all the 'expert' advice says we should be like, apparently. When I had anorexia for 12 years, I had two doctors and a psychiatrist tell me at different times that I'd be dead in six months, like they were willing me to die. What a way to 'support' a patient! The fact that I'm still alive makes me want to go <raspberry> (sorry, can't spell it). 25 years ago, the first one told me. I haven't had a cold in 9 years, or flu for about 10. The main thing I get is insomnia, now (peri-menopausal, I think).
I do think, though, that when you've been through the kind of experiences that you have (and me, too) that you appreciate your life more than people who've had it easier. And you ARE more aware that we all die one day, too.
Janet
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Hi Janet,
Doctors are such idiots aren't they, when treating eating disorders. I can't believe they would tell you that you're going to die!! That makes me so mad. I can relate a little, because I was being `treated' for anorexia and then bulimia in my early twenties, and the doctors were idiots. The psychiatrist I was seeing kept telling me I was `so pretty', and I would think (but not say)`` I *know* I look pretty; thats why I have an eating disorder. Its how I stay pretty '. The cure for me was to find the strength and empowerment to be `not pretty' (in the conventional sense) , and be ok with that.
It was incredibly strong of you to beat anorexia after 12 years, especially since medical advice was so lacking. I read the strangest ideas about anorexia in books when i was trying to cure myself. I didn't read anything about the link l between society expecting women to be thin and anorexia (until i read `the beauty myth') ; all the theories suggested that anorexics are control freak weirdos. I can laugh at that now, but back then it was extremely unhelpful.
I am so glad that your health has survived your journey too. You sound so mentally healthy too; whatever you've been doing, its been good for you.
X bella
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Just an aside about allopathic medicine( regular medicine). It ( allopathic medicine) is the 4th( I think) highest killer of people after cancer ,heat disease etc. So, trusting allopathic medicine should be considered -- long and hard(IMO)
It is called iatrogenic ( doctor or medicine) induced causes of death Ami
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Ami, Does that include things like flu tablets, pain killers etc? Thanks for the info!
X bella
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Dear Bella
The statistic includes ANY allopathic medicine and procedure-- all put together- ( as a whole)
Ami
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In regards to the original post, I used to have an ex boyfriend whom I was trying to lovingly accept as he was.
Consequently, when issues came up, contrary to my normal personality I didn't say anything.
I started to have panic attacks where I couldn't breath.
I started lamenting verbally that something was wrong w/ me but I didn't quite know what it was.
One day, he was either smoking in the house or doing something I didn't like. I immediately felt my chest constrict and my breathing become heavy as I approach my home.
He opened the door and took one look at me and asked me what was wrong.
I told him, I think I know what's causing my panic attacks.
Then I got rid of that boyfriend.
I have always known that staying in toxic relationships can cause stress related illnesses that can eventually lead to death. It's about time the medical authorities caught up.
Now as an aside, I have to confess that sure didn't stop me from starting several of these toxic relationships but I could never stay in them because of the stress they caused me and the physical symptoms that plagued me.
I can relate authentic; My experiences have been similar in that I have not stayed long in stressful relationships or situations. Perhaps the real damage is done over many years, when the situaton remains unchanged?
X bella
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Authentic,
That's very astute of you to have worked that out. I used to get migraines that lasted three days at a stretch...when I was with my NBoyfriend. He just 'did my head in' and was 'such a pain'. Hmmm.
Bella,
As to how many deaths doctors can cause - in the UK, it's reckoned that 5,000 deaths per year are directly attributable to doctor error, misdiagnosis, innnecessary operations that go wrong, etc. That's more than the number of people who die because of MRSA in hospitals per year (although that, on its own, is enough of a reason not to go anywhere near a hospital, IMO!)
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Regarding the original article at the top of this thread, how many people were 'studied' for this research? Were the men and women asked directly? Were their doctors asked instead? How long did the research go on for? I would have thought that the effects of stress would take years to show up in some people...so was the research started years ago, or recently?
Having carried out this research, are they now going to suggest something like state-funded assertiveness training for married women, or that leaving N husbands should be made easier, or that women's refuges should be vastly more easy to get into, and funded much better?
Or....do the people doing the research have a 'wonder drug' ready to counter-act the effect of all this bottling-up of emotions?
I wonder.
Janet
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Point well taken, Janet.
I agree...allopathic medicine has been compromised by many forces. Nothing pure left in anything institutionalized, probably. That said, I did learn while a health editor to approach medicine and healing as a smorgasbord of human talent and caring, and that included scientists and even some drug-inventors.
So for me, ideal medicine is a combination of Western, Eastern, self-help, mind-body, nutritional, etc. That's all I'm getting at. The journal I thought sounded kind of quacky.
I came to admire a lot of scientists I met in my work. Likewise, I've come to admire a lot of off-the-grid healing arts. Anyhow, when it comes to research, I do, likely just because of the environments I've worked in, tend to favor evidence-based medicine. But I'm mindful that can be warped by who's presenting the evidene and writing up the study etc. I worked for someone who was known by his colleagues and the graduate fellows for constantly tweaking the numbers to please the pharmaceutical company they were hoping would sponsor the next round of their research--being seriously ethically compromised. And his colleagues and superiors would not.
It was ghastly but there is a level of desperation among researchers because so much money has gone to support the war and now there's far far less for the crucial disease research. These projects are so very expensive to set up and do properly, and if their funding is cut partway through it can be devastating to whole teams of researchers and set back or destroy years of work...not to mention harming the poplulation the research was set up to help in the first place. (Ironically, the corrupt researcher I knew began his studies in his discipline out of a passion to preserve life, which I believe he still feels. His ethical compromises were always just slight enough to not invalidate outcomes...but they were enough to be noticed.)
Rambling, rambling...
Hops
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Hops,
"So for me, ideal medicine is a combination of Western, Eastern, self-help, mind-body, nutritional, etc. That's all I'm getting at. "
Yes, me too just a bit less of the Western! :) )
I think though, that when you say you prefer 'evidence-based', I would say I do too - it's just that the evidence presented by people who KNOW that treatments such as homeopathy, etc, work, get their evidence 'rubbished' by allopathic-supporting researchers, because the researchers don't want any challange to the status quo. I read recently that in 2000 or 2001, Pfizer started a campaign to publicly rubbish the efficacy of St Johns Wort, because too many people were using it successfully, and Pfizer had their own chemical anti-depressant on the market, and St Johns Wort was starting to make inroads into their profit. They specified, when they started their campaign, that the marketing push had NO UPPER FINANCIAL LIMIT. That's how desperate they were.
My husband has a degree in chemistry, so I don't dismiss claims lightly without getting him to explain things I don't understand, that I read about. It's just that very often, the science simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Janet
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I hear you, Janet.
Some of the people at some of Big Pharma are like the Sopranos in better suits.
Hops
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The Soprano's have good suits
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I have never watched the Spranos. I don't own a TV. Will someone explain?! :?
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Janet - It's a series about a brutal mafia boss and his family and associates.
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Iphi,
Oh! Thanks for explaining. I feel a bit like a two-headed Martian when people talk about TV things.
Janet
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Hi all,
I had the sense that I was deteriorating physically.
This rings completely true for me. Before i went on break a couple of months ago, I could literally feel myself dying. When I said those words to someone, they sounded so off and odd, but it was ture. I could feel myself dying. It was a most unusual feeling. The feeling (It happened three times for periods lasting a half day or thereabouts. It was a decidedly physical feeling, not emotional) has abated sonce I took a break, though my health has been irreparably damaged (not by husband, but from caretaking Nmom). I have learned a couple of valuable lessons that are helping in my particular circumstances and I don't know how it happened, but a number of people have gently sat me down and told me that I must make changes that hopefully will reverse some of the damage. I'm grateful for people who are willing to invest in at least acknowledging my situation and not being afraid to say, you must take care of yourself over and above all oters.
I know I'm a little off topic by using caretaking rather than the marrige scenario, but aren't the very similar?
tt
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I definitely experienced somatic distresses and harms resulting from my voicelessness in my marriage. My NH would threaten to kill me, etc., physically and emotionally hurt me, and do things to sabotage my endeavors. I found that keeping quiet was often the best method to tamp thngs down so that I could carry on with what I needed to do - but at such a cost! I couldn't sleep properly, and the misery followed me everywhere, tearing me apart. Thank you my Dear Friends for being there, helping, guiding, and staying with me as I rid myself of that horror.
Gratefully,
Changing
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Wow tt, that's an incredible experience - what did it feel like to feel yourself dying - was it like your energy was retreating? I wish you the best in pursuing positive changes. I believe, with no scientific studies ready to hand to back it up, that caring for yourself will improve your health and vitality. It can be partly a matter of eating nutritiously and lowering exposure to stress, sure, but that can't be underestimated in itself. Also feeling good probably sends cascades of happiness hormons throughout the body and feeling bad sends cascades of stress hormones through the body. I'm sure happiness is easier for the poor physical form to bear.
changing, your marital situation was harrowing to read and it gives me vicarious relief that you have escaped it so swiftly. Have you thought about how you plan to support and protect your well-being on a going forward basis? And btw, about those suits, I think the front lawn is a convenient place to store his stuff until he can manage to get around to picking it up....
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i am seeing that I "gave" up the desire to live at some point. I think that it might have been 12 years ago when I had two small children and was being abused. I asked my M for help she said some version of her famous sentence,"You made your bed, you lie in it.". I gave up---on an emotional level. I gave up my spark of what makes me"me.") I had given up most of it at 14, I guess that I gave up more when my M "turned on me")
I see,now, that I want to take it back. I am going to take it back. Thank God for Dr G giving us a place to find each other. People with N mothers are very rare(IME).
Thank you all for being there. I am so, so glad Love Ami
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I want to take it back. I am going to take it back.
:D
I believe you, Ami!
Joyful words.
Hops
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I know I'm a little off topic by using caretaking rather than the marrige scenario, but aren't the very similar?
Sometimes they're one and the same, tt. During wifey's chemo, especially early on when she was so weak, it was a minute by minute caretaking thing. But it never seemed a burden; it was a privelege. Maybe the difference is taking care of someone who is a saint or someone who would try the patience of one.
mud
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Mud,
It is such a gift to just get to read of you caring for your wife. I know you have done it willingly and lovingly and without any thought of a pat on the back....but, you deserve one, all the same. You are a very special person and I know that your wife has been able to rest completely in your care.
CB
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Dear Mud,
I think it's that I've been caretaking for two years with almost no breaks that brought on the out of the ordinary experience of feeling myself dying on those three occasions. I hope I never have to be that close to the black hole of collapse as I was then. Having people who know the position I'm in (and who know my NMom) rally to me these last few months, has been very comforting. Strangely, I needed others to give me permission to take care of myself. God provided others to minister to me and show me what I must do, for I wasn't capable of doing for myself those things I so desperately needed.
I've followed the beautiful story of you and your precious wife. I know how you love and adore her. I know she is the delight of your life. I understand so well what you mean by caretaking being a privilege. Even in my circumstances I count it a privilege, not because I receive affirmation for my efforts from my mom. Whatever reward there is for what I'm doing now will come from the one who I believe set the moral code that drives me to remain where I am for now.
Thanks Mud. You are a dear, dear man.
tt
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Hear, hear.
Mrs. Mud must have such a radiant heart, no matter what her body's been through.
And with a companion so strong and so loving, she is a graced woman.
You are a gracious soul, Mud.
You know how to love your wife.
Thank you for the decency and hope you always represent here.
Hops
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Mud,
I didn't know about the situation with your wife. I'm sorry for you, and her.
It does sound like you love her to bits!
Would you tell me a bit more about her, if you can? I'd like to hear that.
Janet
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Yes Mud,
I would love to hear that, also .
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Would you tell me a bit more about her, if you can?
Well, first I have only done for her what I think anyone should do for another (and her mother stayed with us for days at a time for the first few months). Not to take care of your mate seems wholly inhuman to me. I can't comprehend that mindset. So, no, I didn't bring it up for a pat on the back. People such as Hops and tt deserve one far more than me because I know my wife would do the same and more for me were the situation reversed. I get the impression neither one of them knows that.
My wife, who is the strongest but most gentle, humble but most beautiful woman I know, was diagnosed with breast cancer in Sep 2005. It had spread to all 15 of the lymph nodes they removed. Being a stubborn girl who believed in natural remedies she refused chemo and even tamoxifen which is an estrogen blocker.
Breast cancer most commonly metastisizes to bone. In March of 2006 she developed pain in her hip. She was in denial that this pain or the ensuing ones in her ribs, back and pelvis were related to her cancer. Denial is a very powerful thing and neither I nor her mother, sister or friends could get through to her. Finally, she became anemic due to the cancer interfering with her marrow. She was also hypercalcemic which is caused by the cancer displacing the bone's calcium into the bloodstream. She was so weak and in so much pain she had to lift herself up on my outstretched arm and hold onto it to get to the bathroom. She nearly fainted a couple of times so I finally forced her into the car and admitted her to the emergency room. She spent a week in the hospital and was told by a feisty and forceful little oncolgist, who she couldn't stand at the time, that she was still treatable but that she would very soon be dead if she did nothing. He and the atmosphere of ICU did to her denial what no one else could.
She started chemo a couple of weeks later and did very, very well. She had very few side effects. She needed caretaking primarily because it took her months to recover her strength from the anemia and because her mobility was restricted from the cancer in her bones. She was blessed that it had not spread anywhere else. Her tumor marker started out at 400+, with 38 and below being normal. After chemo it was down to 40+. She is now on tamoxifen and her marker has continued down until it is now 18. She gets a little stiff if she sits in one position for more than a couple of hours. Otherwise she is better than ever. We hiked about seven miles a couple of months ago when we were on vacation and we just got back from a trip where she went sea kayaking for the first time. She and our daughter are leaving today to join our cousin in a girls trip to the coast for four days. She was wonderful before but has a zest for life now that is hard to keep up with. Nor does anything worry or faze her any more. As she said the other day, when you have been at death's door every other problem seems pretty trivial.
At this time last year she was still pretty near death, and I didn't expect her to be here now. She has a good doctor but even he has been amazed at her recovery and her tolerance of the chemo. She still has cancer and it may resume at any time. But while I thank her doctor for what he has done I believe it is a miracle. That is why my favorite verse has now become "Every good and perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights.."
He gave her back to me and someday He will probably take her away. But I didn't deserve her in the first place so whatever time He lets me borrow His daughter is a good and perfect gift.
mud
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Mud,
Thanks for telling us that. It's really sweet. What a thing to have to go through (both of you).
You both sound very special to me.
"But I didn't deserve her in the first place "
I bet you did :)
Janet
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Thank you Mud,
You have a simple and humble expression of Jesus' love .
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her marker has continued down until it is now 18. She gets a little stiff if she sits in one position for more than a couple of hours. Otherwise she is better than ever. We hiked about seven miles a couple of months ago when we were on vacation and we just got back from a trip where she went sea kayaking
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
I didn't know, Mud, I'm so glad!
Hops
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Mud,
What wonderful news. Happy tears are rolling down my cheeks.
tt