Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sunblue on August 22, 2007, 02:17:16 PM
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I just read Dr. Grossman's info on voicelessness and it really hit home. I've studied NPD for awhile now to better understand my family's situation. I am the adult child of an NPD mom and an NPD sister (the "chosen" one). I also have a co-dependent dad and a "healthy" brother who is happily married. I have suffered from major depression since a child (although I was diagnosed only as an adult). It is frustrating that no one in my family will recognize the correlation between the NPDs in my family and my depression and lack of self-esteem.
However, what I really wonder is why siblings are not affected in similar ways to an NPD parent. For example, my brother seems not to be affected at all, having developed a healthy marriage, family and friends, etc. He does not have depression or self-esteem problems.
I, however, am the damaged one. I don't have any relationships and have always had severe self-esteem issues, coupled with major depression and PTSD.
Of course, my NPD sister, having benefited from all the attention from my NPD mom and co-dependent dad, thrives. Because of her destructive behavior, my brother and I have nothing to do with her. But naturally, my parents devote their whole lives to her.
Can anyone offer any insight into why siblings react so differently when they've been raised in the same house by the same NPD parent?
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Welcome, Sunblue.
I think it's because you were the girl child.
Same for me...my brother seems untroubled by my mother's nature.
Well, he's Nish himself, or a bunch of other things.
But I think Nmothers often try to grind their daughter into pulp, while males get the charm.
(Somebody else wrote a really good post on this recently...maybe someone can point you to it.)
Glad you're here, you're in good company.
Hopalong
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I just want to say that---- that is a GREAT question. I would love to hear people's responses. I do have a question for you, though. You said that your S is destructive. How? If she is destructive, then she does not 'live well"? right?
Also, are you close to your brother to know about his life I am just curious ,myself, .That is why I am asking. Thanks so much Ami
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Hi Ami:
Thank you for your response and I thought I'd follow up your questions.
My sister (who I strongly believe is also NPD) is destructive in a variety of ways. She is extremely controlling, selifish and self-centered. She has done many terrible things to my brother and I. For example, she backed out of my brother's wedding (as a bridesmaid) at the last minute because she didn't like the dress. On his actual wedding day, she wrote a hate-filled and obscenity-filled letter in the wedding card she gave him telling him how stupid he was for getting married. It was truly hateful. Then, a few years later when my brother and his wife had a child, she disowned them all because she wasn't selected as godmother (they wanted a married couple who held Christian beliefs and my sister did not fit either of those criteria). When she disowned them, she refused to to to the Christening; she ripped up the baby picture they sent into little pieces and mailed it back to him; she refused to be in the same room with them so our family could no longer be together on holidays or vacations, etc. When her own live-in boyfriend (of 20+years) announced he was pursuing a certain job, she immediately announced she was throwing her hat in the ring for the same job (consequently, neither was appointed the job). She continues to monopolize my parents under the guise that she has a "nervous" condition. My parents spent every weekend, holiday, vacation, free time with her. When I was a child, she was very abusive to me and made it clear she wanted nothing to do with me. On the other hand, when we were all young, she adored my brother and make him her own. She was so physically and verbally abusive to me, I had to study in a walk-in closet to avoid her wrath (we shared a bedroom as children). So, you get the drift.
As for my brother, I am close to him on some level. However, his number one priority is his wife and child who he adores and who adore him. He really doesn't have a place for anyone else in his life. I think also he has learned to deal with my dysfunctional parents by distancing himself from them and probably extends that to me a little bit. Perhaps because he was adored by my sister and didn't incur her rejection and wrath growing up, he grew up having a better sense of himself that allowed him to find friends and a family of his own. He also never had to deal with the depression I do.
It is really hard accepting that you're alone. A healthy family doesn't act this way. But no one in my family has ever taken an interest in me or my life. It is worsened by the fact that my father is extremely co-dependent. He never stands up for me (or for himself) and just goes along with whatever my sister and mom want.
So, there you have it. In my case, I just wish I could get at least my "healthy" brother to see the direct correlation between how my parents behaved towards me and my depression and self-esteem issues. I think that would help. By the way, as an adult, I found myself in a short-lived but extremely damaging relationship with an NPD. I didn't know it at the time of course. But I've learned that people who find themselves in these sorts of relationships do so because it is what they know, what they are used to, and that speaks to their families and how they were raised.
If anyone here can recall that other post that speaks to this issue of siblings of NPD parents, I'd sure appreciate a link.
Thanks!
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Sunblue,
I can relate to a lot of what you've posted. It sounds like you put up with an awful lot in your childhood. Your sister sounds absolutely appalling.
I'll tell you a bit about me, and you just watch the similarities!
I have an older brother who seems to be 'OK' - except he's quite distant, off-hand, can't form proper relationships and prefers to sit on the fence rather than have a firm opinion on anything. Both my parents thought the world of him when we were all growing up (he was the first born). My Mum is the one with NPD, and my Dad is the one who wouldn't stand up for himself, or me, as my NMum was so strong. He is the only one that I still have contact with, now
I was the targeted one, causing me to have anorexia for 12 years - I have had no contact with my NMum for 13 years.
Then there's my sister. Because she was appointed the Golden Child by my NMum, she is unbearable now, and I believe she's got NPD too. I have no contact with her either.
I left home at 22 and moved in with an Nboyfriend (chosen by my NMum and Nsister), so I had a bad relationship there, too, for 6 years.
Are you the middle child? Would you mind saying how old you are? Many people here are in their forties or fifties - it seems to take that long for the penny to drop! I'm 45, and only found out that what my Mum's got is called NPD a year ago.
It's a hard thing to deal with, but this forum is the best place to talk it out, IMO.
Janet
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I think there are many reasons that siblings react differently. The simple answers are these; first, each child is different, they are born different and react differently to different stimulus and second parents treat different children differently even if it is imperceptible to the children themselves. The two reasons can make enormous differences. It is not unlike how two siblings can seem to eat or drink the same and yet one may become obese while the other not or one may become alcoholic and the other not.
That's my opinion.
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hi sunblue
welcome
Makes sense, happened here
Mom, Dad 5 kids and I am in the middle.
I was born shy-and backward if that can happen, because I have brown hair and the others are all redheads; they taunted me about not belonging. I was ridiculed for various reasons, and neither parent stepped in. I felt very 'hated' by my siblings and felt very 'unnecessary' to my parents.
Now Dad was a raging physical abuser to all of us (razor strap) and Mom was a 'stand back and don't interfere' mother. I am an older genreration from you. Am 68, my parents died in '86 and'94.
All kids left home as soon as we finished high school. All other of the 4 married and had 2 children and are still married to same spouse, so are celebrating anniversaries, 50th, 49th, 45th, 40th this year and I am alone.
I had 2 bad relationships: One commom-law and we had a daughter. He was physically abusive and an alcoholic, so I left when our daughter was 2½ By Golly she missed him and I felt so gulty. #Two relationship was '98-'02 with a Psychopathand now no contact for 5 years. It was because of him that I learned about Ns and Ps.----pretty late in life , I say.
Anyway, now I know that my daughter married and N and he caused her untold agony ( now divorced) as well as did the 'conquer and divide" so that we have been apart for 16 years.
I realized that all the pain caused to me as a child, besides my father came from one particular sister. She was a controlling bi*ch and was the instigator of all the harm and ridicule I went through as a child and I went through even more when I ended my first relationship. She wanted to divorce her husband, that would be the 49th anniversary above, and told our parents I was having an affair with her husband and she was divorcing him. They believed her, so we can change that now to, live with him for 10 years, married for 20 for her second relatinship, but my parents used to follow me around, or check to see if my car was home by a certain time and I was 28+.
When I was 30 and my daughter was 5, I was in a car crash and disabled. I was away from her for a year, but there were visits. Anyway another time of abandonment for her, then when her husband kicked me out (owing me $55,000,00--damned N) I drove away and abandoned her again.
The solution to all my problems would have been to speak out for myself from the beginning----make my 'voice' heard. Told mom on my sister, yelled and screamed at Dad when he beat me., I should have spoken up to people when I was in my teens, spoken up re guy#1 about his drinking before it was so bad he couldn't turn it around. He killed himeslf. I ought to have raised my daughter to do this but I didn't know how important it was to speak up, be assertive, say No, and mean NO! I ought to have ripped hell out of my son-in-law!!!!!
I think every feeling a person has ought to be spoken aloud, and once it is out it is not gong to back up to your insides and cause you untold stress in later years.
I have lived 68 years for nothing!
Good Luck
Izzy
{EDIT} I have 3 grandchildren--- remember daughter married an N? --- the eldest lives with the father and is Nish at 21 The other 2 are with my daughter {and I don't think they are.) ages 18 and 15.
P.S. I sued S-I-L for my $$ and got it!
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(Izzy, I am surprised to read this last sentence, "I have lived 68 years for nothing!" After months of watching you grow stronger I really thought you have begun to change your view about your life. No?) (whispering so as to not interfere with thread)
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hi GS
I just read that book yesterday about my grandson's near tragedy and I just cannot believe so much when on after I was dismissed. It is a distressing book for me, whereas It might be just another true adventure story to strangers (no-relatives)
*whispering too. but feeling a bit off from my usual demeanour*
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WOW! First of all, thank you to all of you for posting! I think it's really helpful to hear from other people going through this. It also made me feel better that others are only figuring this out later in life (like me--mid-40s...OUCH!)
From the discussion so far, it seems there are a few similarities in this situation. I'm a middle child like some of you posted and perhaps that makes a difference. Also, there seems to be a common thread of having at least one sibling who is also NPD (my older sister is). Third, the non-NPD parent seems to be co-dependent and submissive (my dad is extremely so and thus I could never count on him to intervene on my behalf, then or now). Also, it seems that those of us most affected by an NPD parent have difficulty or inability finding or maintaining relationships (I've never been married or had any serious relationships to speak of, let alone children unfortunately). It also appears that other somewhat "healthy" siblings are aloof and non-emotional when it comes to these issues. I know mine sure is. He just refuses to try to understand even when I spelled it out for him (and when my therapist tried to explain it to him).
My NPD mother has been very emotionally abusing but not in a physical way. Her ways are all emotional. It was interesting when someone said they wished they had stood up to these NPD abusive people. That might play a role in relationships we have later on with significant others, but when it's your parents, you don't know any different. I know in my house it was always a situation where we all had to walk on eggshells, making sure no one disagreed with or failed to pay attention to the NPDs in the house. The result is that the only person who ever had any of their needs met in the house was the NPD (in my case, my mom and my sister). The result was total disinterest and neglect in the lives of the rest of us. For me, that meant growing up with a severly negative self-image, feeling like a total failure and lacking in value. This translated into every area of my life and still does.
For me, the hardest thing is giving up "hope" that you'll have the parental relationships you needed and deserved. I'm coming to accept that I will never have that and never have that. I keep thinking, "What if?" What if I had not been neglected (emotionally)? What if someone had paid attention to me and cared about me? What if someone had given me a "voice"? It's very hard for me to see both my NPD sister and "healthy" brother having positive experiences in life when I have nothing but negative ones and am the one who seems to suffer the most of this familial NPD relationship.....
What's also frustrating is from the outsider's perspective my NPD mom and sister are "perfect", "wonderful". They are two completely people with others and with us. They are the ones who appear to be wonderful and successful. I, on the other hand, am the weak one, the unsuccessful one, the loser. And it makes me angry because I truly don't believe it's my fault. But there is no one who will validate that.
But I am glad I found this message board. It is very helpful to hear from those who are adult children of NPD parents. For me, my challenge is what do I do now? I have discovered that I cannot count on my dysfunctional parents or "healthy" brother and so I am left literally alone. How do you function with this? How do you not take it personally? In the past, my therapists have always told me that I need to focus on the fact that it is "them" who are the unhealthy ones, not me. But I just can't help thinking that it is me, that if someone I were different that my NPD mom would take an interest in me.....
Narcissism is just a horrible disorder because the pain and damage is not endured by the NPD person but to those around them, those who are true "victims" of the disorder. It is just so unfair......It just seems like the NPD person never suffers. THey are completely fine. They don't mind sacrificing relationships with children or spouses or others in favor of their NPD children or those who buy into their behaviors...
I feel not only heartbroken but completely broken by this. I mourn the loss of normal family relationships, of the love and attention I never received but which people all around me seem to receive. It is such a lonely world.
Thanks again for listening and for posting. It was really great to hear your situations and the similarities. It just proves there is something to this because goodness knows, the NPDs in our lives would never acknowledge their disorder or allow a doctor to diagnose it officially.
Thanks!
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Narcissism is just a horrible disorder because the pain and damage is not endured by the NPD person but to those around them, those who are true "victims" of the disorder
Dear Sun Blue,
I just HAD to post before I went to bed b/c I heard such anguish in your post. I can say that I have a husband and two good children( which I am grateful for),but I almost died from the pain of my mother, in spite of having a 'family".
I don't mean to minimize at all what you have suffered- in ANY way_ and I hope that it does not sound that way-- just to say that she destroyed me- family or no family.
Sun, I am so, so so sad for what she did to you. You so, so did not deserve any of the awful treatment. Birth order makes sense in playing a factor about who gets scapegoated.
I bet the other two may look "perfect",but they most likely are suffering ,also. The N mother is a curse on all .We had one thread where people said that the scapegoat was luckier b/c the golden one can never break away. I don't know. It is ALL terrible.
I hope that you stay and keep sharing. I think that you will find a "home" here.I wish that I could give you a BIG hug Love Ami
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Hi (((((((Izzz)))))))))
I hear feelings a-roiling. I think it may be painful when it starts to come out but please let it come, and know no matter what, when you grieve,
you are not alone.
We are here and will be here and so will your T...
and you are 68-going-on-40.
lots of love,
Hops
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And it makes me angry because I truly don't believe it's my fault. But there is no one who will validate that.
It isn't your fault! You are right to feel angry! I'll validate you! I don't believe you are a loser for one second and anything they say to you to that effect is just a pernicious lie.
Well, the Ns suffer (I have seen it) but right now I just don't care. Because they think I should care and I am OUT of the business of gratifying Ns. Kaput! They never do a thing to actually alleviate their own suffering - they never learn anything as people. They never grow.
((((sun blue)))) I'm sorry you have tried so hard to be honest and make the most of your relationship with your brother and it just doesn't sound like he is able to step up. I understand and have similar issues with my sister.
I'm glad you are here.
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Hi Sunblue,
(I love your name, btw.)
I am so sorry...you're in that terrible pit that feels like a child left alone on the curb in the winter while the mother drives by laughing...
I promise, it won't last. Eventually your life force will drive you out to form new families of friendship and community and support and caring and happy healthy activity and your life will fill up with the present. Then the pain of the past and fear of the future won't have room to take over.
They'll visit, as they do, but you'll return to the present, which is all we have, any of us, ever, really.
with love,
Hops
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Thank you hops
A few places in the book I almost choked up but an getting there!
and sun blue
My daughter is your age group. At this point in life I am learning that doilies (damn and I crocheted so many) are no longer necessary and that big hair is out, long sgraggles are in and that people no longer send Thank You notes for Wedding gifts, or any other gift not handed to them in person. Well at least I wear slacks on the street....I'm not THAT old.
There is always something about the middle child, but as well, the placement of the others, as well as depending on the household.
I gather Dad with his raging, and that someone suggested he had a "dry-drunk' personaliry--was the N--- or close to it and Mom was the co-dependant!
Apparently the way it goes is that if you "couldn't fix your father" you will end up with a man who, like daddy, needs fixing, and so on...
I wonder about your brother not understanding you when you tell him....... but if he is happy with his little family, and knows there is dysfunction, he just might not want a part of it.......................in case it's contagious??????.... and ask yourself again... just how healthy IS your brother??????
My so-called healthy siblings, in my opinion, are avoiding the whole issue. I happen to be competent and strong and have come through many tough times and traumas, but yet no one will say, "Way to go, sis! I could never have done that! I would have sent my spouse into the fray for you!"
If you are at all as I described myself and have never been one to stand up for yourself--well it's assertiveness time! Ask your Therapist!
i.e. I have known a man for 40 years,. He was my boss. For at least the last 13 years he has telephoned me and tells me things about my daughter and the kids. I liked to hear them, but I would get depressed and then he had been making me mnadder and madder and madder, and now after therapy, I told him I don't want any more telephone calls from him if all he is calling for is to talk about her and the kids and what they do for him and not me. After I hung up, I thought I ought to have said "It cuts like a knife"! Then I realized I don't talk in those descriptive terms. Right now I don't care if he ever calls again!!
I think you can start thinking about giving up hope that things will change. They won't--not unless parents go into therapy. They must be my age, and I signed in as "is it too late" but am now Izzy, and everyone said NO it was not too late and I am getting feeling about things I ought to have done, ..........etc.
You might never get validation from within, but you will from other sources, workmates etc. I am the best worker anyone ever had!!! Case closed!! I know it because every supervisor I ever had has told me so....and they had nothing to lose by praising me.....not like family!
I have mentally built a fence and put all the toxic, or non-helpful, people on the other side. No one is allowed on my side without my permission. My daughter is and my thought for her is "She and I can exchange pleasant emails". Not damned much but it makes me think more highly of her.
In my honest opinion, the N suffers, in his/her own way because although we often think that they love themselves, they really hate themselves with a passion. That is why they need Supply from the unknowing victim.
I stopped mourning my loss some time ago and now live 2000 miles away from them all. I won't say I don't think of them, but I have a thought for the family as well. "They are good folks, no criminals and are human, have flaws and somewhere they must have a good point or two" then I let my mind drift away from them to something better.
Address me directly sun blue if I have been any help, please?
Love
Izzy
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Hello Sun,
I have asked myself similar questions about my own foo and my H's N fam. I don't know if my mother was or is an N but our fam was dysfunctional nonetheless. My sibs all dealt with the dysfunction differently. My brothers dealt differently than my sister and I. I remember calling myself the "damaged one" too. Although, I don't anymore. I have struggled with depression, PTSD, and self-esteem all my life. My sibs have other stuff. Some is easy to see and some is not. I am not sure any of my sibs are emotionally aware enough to recognize the dysfunction the way I did. (I was the whistle blower and scapegoat.) My H has a brother that went buggo early in his life and now seems to be doing great. But I wonder how truly healthy he is. He is good at "looking" great. My other in laws were treated as golden children and many still believe that they are. But all have dysfunction. They just don't know it and only an educated eye could see it. I wonder if it is that way with your sibs. I think that many in my family are too scared to look at it or too comfortable in the dysfunction to recognize the problem. I wonder if the depression and self-worth probs are an indicator of your strong spirit. You recognized instincitively that there was something wrong and you dealt with it in the only way you could at the time. I know I did. I now am learning better ways, kinder ways of dealing with it. Self care, etc....
My take on your "golden" sister is that the reason she gets all the attention is that her dyfunction plays right into the hands of your parents and helps them to feel the way they need to feel to keep themselves protected or validated. Sounds to me like it is part of the game. My H used to play the game. He is now standing on his own and refusing to be defined by his mother and her "labels". She is scrambling and trying all the tricks to get him/us to submit to the old way he used to function. It shows me how self absorbed she is. The healthier we get and the healthier our behavior gets, the more they label us as dysfunctional. They need so badly to believe that we are the prob and they are the perfect ones. They don't know how to listen or to see our growth and be happy for us or encourage us.
I guess what I am trying to say is that all of my sibs seem to have different awareness levels. For 10years my H has been completely blind and he looked so healthy and so put together. Everyone used to tell me how lucky I was. Now, we both realize how messed up he was and how good he was at keeping up appearances. But that is all it was. Surface! He is now healthier than I have ever seen him. But it has taken so much to help him see. It is actually a miracle.
--poppy
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Children are different because they are treated differently. If a mother gives a lot of love to a child and deprives the other, those children are going to be different despite of being in the same household.
If a mother makes one child to feel special and the other feel like trash, those children are going to act and feel different.
I think the behavior is a product of our experiences and the most important part is the first years of life with our mother. Also, how prepared is the mother when a child comes to this world. Mothers welcome to the world one child and did not want the other. If you are welcome into this world, also makes a difference in self esteem and in personality.
My love to you, you sound so similar to me.
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Lupita,
"Mothers welcome to the world one child and did not want the other"
This is an interesting thought, Lupita, but I can't quite understand it as it relates to my family. I was the middle child, and apparently the only 'planned' one. My sister (younger than me) was an 'accident', but she is the Golden Child.
I think the problem with my NMum is not only that she planned my birth, but she planned my LIFE...she just didn't consider that I might want to have some input into that!
Janet
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Dear Janet, how old are you now? is she still interfering with your life? I am 50 and try not to let her hurt me. I try to detach as much as I can. But it is difficult.
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Dear Lupita,
I am 45 now. I started NC with my NMum when I was 32.
It's much better now that I don't have anything to do with her, and live hundreds of miles away from her, too!
She doesn't contact me now, but she encourages her latest 'boyfriend' to do that for her (both in their seventies). My NSister also tries sometimes - I went NC with her 13 years ago, too. She is much more persistent and vindictive than my NMum, now, I think.
I deal with them better than I did, on the whole, but still have nightmares, sometimes.
I agree - it is difficult.
Janet
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Hi Sunblue,
I agree with what others said, about the `damage' occurring in different ways, depending n the child. I don't know if you have heard this, but depression is often a sign of being more enlightened and honest about reality than others, who may protect themselves with ego and denial. My partner was taught this in his psychology classes; perhaps it explains why you were the only one who was depressed?
X Bella
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Hello all!
Thank you so much for your comments! It is so good to finally hear from people who "get it" and I have to admit I feel a little relieved that I'm not the only one who has only now discovered what this is all about. I have had major depression all my life (although only diagnosed 10 years ago). My therapists have mentioned they thought I was the strong one but I always felt inferior and the weaker one. I know for a fact that I am the only one in my dysfunctional family who has tried to understand the "why" behind things and tried to understand why the family is the way it is. My parents have consistently refused to either come to therapy (for my behalf, not theirs) or even to answer a few written questions my therapist instructed me to ask them about. My dad conveniently adopts the attitude that "some people just don't believe in that kind of thing." My NPD sister has repeatedly refused to get medical help for her "nervous" condition because she adamantly claims that she is not "crazy". She is evil, not crazy. Since my brother seems not to be affected adversely by any of this, he doesn't really closely look at it. I studied NPD a lot and did al lot of research and studying. I compiled all this information in a kind of report which included specific examples pertaining to our family and its effect on me and others. His reaction was only, "well, at least there's a name for it." But he doesn't truly get it.
I do think you're right about depressives being more sensitive to these issues. I feel enormous empathy for others as a general rule and so find it very difficult to accept my NPD mom's total lack of compassion and support. It just seems that those of us who feel this way get stuck with all the "pain" and "damage".
Part of my problem is that currently, for financial reasons, I have to live with my parents. They basically ignore me and take no interest in my life. But I feel completely and utterly alone. On the one hand, these people are very hurtful and destructive, on the other hand, they are your parents. It's so hard for me not to take it personally, not to feel betrayed and resentful, and not to give up hope that I could have a real relationship with my NPD mom (and co-dependent dad). It is such a painful, lonely life.
I know NPDs behave in varying ways. My NPD mom has always been neglectful in emotional ways. She was a mother of sorts, but never a mom. She made sure there was food in the house, presents at Christmas and clothes that were cleaned. But she never took any interest in anything I did, especially if it didn't fit in with her own ideas. She values anyone with money and material things and dismisses everyone else. Thus, I am a true failure. I realize she treats most people like this, but still it is so hurtful.
I also struggle with the guilt of wanting to be a "good" daughter to my mom (and dad). But how can you when they treat you like this? She essentially won't allow it. The only way would be to agree with everything she said at all times, do whatever she wanted at all times and never have my own opinions, beliefs or interests. She has united with my NPD sister in ridiculous extremes to the extent that she and my dad have next to nothing to do with me, my brother or my niece, their only grandchild. How do you deal with that? How do you look the other way? Especially when you have no one else in your life?
It seems like such a continual struggle and so unfair. As someone who has been so depressed all my life, I always felt like I could have used some support, compassion and help. I always felt like you help those who need it most. Instead, my NPD mom side with the child who created all the damage to begin with.
Anyway, thanks for letting me vent. I really appreciate your comments. I am a middle child and can identify with a lot of what you all said. Too bad there's not a 12-step program for adult children of NPD parents!
Thanks again.!
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Hi Izzy, Poppy and everyone else (I forgot to write down all the names). Please know I have read every single word of every one of your posts! They are so thoughtful and compassionate! WOW! That is certainly a new feeling for me!
So, thank you, thank you, thank you! I am sincerely sorry you all have experienced the kinds of things I have. It is heartwrenching, a hole in the heart which never heals.
There was one comment I read which aptly described my situation with my NPD mom. It's like you're a child left on the curb crying while she drives by laughing. That's exactly how it feels.
Aside from the guilt and resentment and just plain sadness when dealing with this situation, I just can't seem to get by the what ifs. I think it's bad enough when you have to deal with the loss of one parent relationship because of NPD. But more often than not, the other parent (like my dad) is co-dependent or absent resulting in the loss of the other too. My dad is so co-dependent on my NPD mom that at bedtime he won't even go up to bed when he's tired before my mom accompanies (keep in mind they have separate rooms, my NPD mom's idea of course!). He won't make any decision, no matter how small, without her approval. So growing up and now, no one dares stand up to or disagrees with my NPD mom. When you do disagree, as my brother and I have, she throws you away, discards you. On top of the parents, I grew up with a thoroughly NPD sister and a brother who, though healthy, dealt with it by distancing himself. And then there was me, neglected and alone.
So I'm often left with the what ifs. What if I had received a little attention when I was young? Would I have spent my lifetime fighting major depression and PTSD? Would I have ever become involved with the NPD guy I did (for a short time) who thoroughly destroyed me? Would I have been able to make friends or find a boyfriend or husband or had children? Would I have had enough self-esteem to think myself worthy of good things? And on and on. But there's no going back. In my case, my NPD absolutely, positively would never even entertain the notion that something could possibly be wrong with her so she would never go to a therapist, not even under the guise to help me. I have been suicidal in my life and was hospitalized once and she didn't even call me. So no, therapy is out. It's all up to me. Everyone in my family thinks that because I have sought therapy and am on meds, that it is all my problem. I'm weak, less than, a failure. Yet, I feel like screaming, "I'd like to see how well you would have done in life having to deal with all this on your back?" I have had many negative experiences in my life, ranging from molestation to assault to robbery to countless betrayals, yet I never received one ounce of compassion from any member of my family.
So I understand your pain and anguish. It just seems so unfair that the NPDs, while internally they may be unhappy, achieve so much and never endure any real hardships in their life. They are not the ones who suffer.
Also, in my family, my NPD mom and co-dependent dad were and are extremely secretive and isolating. Growing up, they both were estranged from their own siblings so we had no extended family. They didn't socialize with people and didn't want anyone in the house. They always instructed us not to tell anyone anything about our family or our house or anything. So it was just the five of us, two of whom were NPD, one who was a co-dependent, my brother who usually ran off with his friends to get away and me. So the result is utter loneliness.
I am grateful for this message board. Truly grateful. Thank you for listening and I pray you are doing well in your own struggles. I would think those of you who are lucky enough to have children can appreciate the importance of good, loving parenting and that family relationships are so essential to a person's well-being.
:)....
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Sun,
What a painful story. I don't think you need to live a life of pain.
You have a long future.
I have felt a lot of loneliness and isolation too, and still can.
But something that has really helped me has been getting very involved
in a healthy church community (in my case UU but there are many others).
It has taken a long time, just like building a family takes time. But I do
have a place to belong, to explore new friendships, to test my talents,
to give and serve sometimes, to sing, to sorrow, and to risk.
I felt similar feelings around a women's support group I went to EVERY
Tuesday night for two years. It opened up my realization that when I
am lonely I can change it. It won't change in single encounters and I
won't be rescued from the essentiality of it (Pema Chodron) but I CAN
build my own family, that will be there for me more often than not.
What a difference it could make to you to step out of this poisoned
atmosphere and drink from a new well. It's doing it intentionally,
and over and over...that can really change you life.
You deserve to feel happiness and hope.
love
Hops
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Hello all:
Thanks again for your posts. They are so helpful!
I'm wondering for those of you who are a bit farther along than I am in the "acceptance" and "healing" process, how do you deal with your NPD parent now? In all my reading, it appears that NPD is a cycle and thus a disorder that our NPD parent learned from their own parents. So do you feel sorry for them because they didn't get what they needed from their own parents? Do you forgive them for treating you so badly? Do you remain angry and resentful because of the damage that was done to you? Do you accept that they will never love you as you love them? Does that mean you limit or even eliminate your interactions wth them?
In my family, there is no chance that either my NPD mom or co-dependent would even listen to the possibility that there is dysfunction in the family (caused by them). My mother would never, ever entertain the idea that she is NPD and that my depression might have roots in something she did or didn't do. So there is no hope for change. Thus, there will never be any "closure", never even any discussion of this. In my family, there has never really been any discussion on anything significant. My NPD mom either spoke at you or tuned out. If she gave advice or an opinion, and you didn't adhere to it, she would get angry, withdraw and not engage in any further conversation.
So, ultimately, except for me, no one in my family will ever acknowledge the dysfunction or the effects of the dysfunction. I'm the damaged one so the problem must be all about me.
So, I was just curious, how do you regard your NPD parent now that you are aware of all of these issues?
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NPD is a cycle and thus a disorder that our NPD parent learned from their own parents. So do you feel sorry for them because they didn't get what they needed from their own parents?
Yes. Sun, I did and do feel very sorry about my mother's blunted childhood. I got STUCK in feeling sorry for her because the aftereffects of that childhood (her NPD) caused her to be a supreme manipulator, so I became Co-D and Cinderella. Eventually, it came time to STOP feeling sorry for her. My next stage was a decade of anger. Then...
Do you forgive them for treating you so badly?
Yes. Finally. That too was a process not a moment.
Do you remain angry and resentful because of the damage that was done to you?
Thank god, not any more. That changed because the anger was so useless and ultimately uncreative and boring and it was a stuck place. Releasing that was a process too. One big blowup moved it along. (Though I felt guilt for that.)
Do you accept that they will never love you as you love them?
Yes. That was the first part of it.
The next part to make peace with was my realization that after the feeling sorry for, feeling resentful and angry at, I finally have come to realize I also do not love Nmother as much as I did as a child. I love her but it's a mild thing. Not primal any more. And I also got to the point where I realized that INTENSITY of love doesn't = quality or rightness. It's just intensity. I don't love her as intensely as before. It's more a dutiful and familiar love. There is no longing in it.
Does that mean you limit or even eliminate your interactions wth them?
It may sound insane for me to comment on this because I actually live with my mother, but yes. My limiting has taken the form of leaving intimate chores to her morning caregiver, retreating to my own rooms on the second floor at almost all times, and simply not pretending any more that I delight in companionship. I'm patient, humorous, and kind when we do interact. And she, at looooooooooong last, seems content with it. She thanks me for whatever service I've just provided and goes back to her reading. I think on some gut level she also has come to realize that we're not friends.
Hope that gives you some help,
Hops
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Hopalong, if you dont mind, would please, tell me how could you detach if you are seeing her every day?
I e mail my mother back and forth everyday, and it is hard to read the insane things that she writes me. But I write her back saying just what I did during the day and telling that I wish for God to bless her and have a wonderful day. Today I was totally detach when she wrote, "I am the onlyone who will give you a kidney if you needed it". I did not even think about her the rest of the day. I just wrote her the same thing, what I did, went to church, went to dance lessons and saw my son. Then I proceded to ask God ofr bessings for her and said good bye. I feel totally calmed right now. I do not know how I got to this point. I would like to know how you did. Thank you Hops.
Love to you.
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Dear Lupita,
I think that you turned it over to God and got a peace. Does that sound right? Ami :D
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Hi Lupita,
I spent two decades having panic attacks and doing therapy, then for the last 8 years I have lived in the same house with her.
So I don't think I have a method of detaching from an Nmother to recommend!
But my struggles with her, and with my own previous resentment, called up a great many things about myself that I didn't want to face but had to, if I were going to have any chance at peace, spiritual growth.
One time, I blew up, about a year ago. She was manipulating me about the house, whether she'd leave it to me or not, and I had built up enormous fear over my future...and I asked her to just make a decision and tell me what it was...anyway, I've told that tale before. But when I blew up, I told her I had come to realize there was no way I could please her, and that it had been a mistake to move in.
That shocked her into treating me more courteously and her displays of entitlement have never reached the same peak again.
Spiritually, I worked at it, kept involved in my church community, really listened to our smart ministers, respected that I couldn't do it alone. I think years of acceptance and positive encounters there did a lot to increase my strength.
And Pema Chodron's writing, in particular, showed me more than I've ever "gotten" before about detachment. I do recommend her to you.
Glad to hear from you, Lup.
love
Hops
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Thank you so much for answering. Pema Shodrom........ what book? I will read it. It sounds terrific.
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he only title I can suggest is
When Things Fall Apart...and it's PEMA CHODRON
(I read another a few years back but don't recall the title).
Hope you'll enjoy it, Lupita.
Hops
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Hi all:
As always, reading your posts with interest. I will be sure to look up the Pema Chodron book as well as I like to read whatever I can on the subject.
It seems judging from what you've been writing that whether you live with your NPD parent or not, they seem to have frequent contact with you. Even though I live with mine (for the time being until I can find a new job), there is very little contact. I know that will only continue when I move out. Neither my NPD mom nor co-depdent dad ever initiate contact with my brother (the happily married one). He calls them weekly to see how they are and occasionally drops by with my niece for a quick visit. But they never, ever initiate it. No phone calls, no e-mails. They, of course, chose my NPD sister long ago and spend every holiday, weekend and vacation with her so he doesn't see them on those occasions (nor do I).
Also, because my older sibling (NPD sister) is the chosen one, I have no doubt that she will control everything when my parents do become ill and need help coping. I am confident this is one more way my NPD mom will "punish" my brother and I by not allowing us to be a good son and daughter to her, all the while screaming out to everyone she knows just how terrible it is that we aren't there for her. Fortunately, both my parents are still active and healthy and it hasn't come to that. But I have no doubt she will exclude my brother and I even from this. Of course, that will bring a lot of guilt.
As I've said, because my NPD mom's preferred method of abuse is total neglect and disinterest, she makes no effot to communicate to me or my brother. No conversation, no questions about my life (or my brother's). I know very well that when I ultimately move out, there will be no contact unless I initiate it. That will be hard for me. My "healthy" brother seems to have accepted it and is fine with the occasional phone call or visit. For me it is much harder to accept that at best, we can only expect to have the most superficial of relationships. No close mom-daughter or dad-daughter relationship. When I see others who have this close relationship, I really feel sad and cheated.
Oh well. I wish I was in the place where some of you are. Thanks for listening.
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Sun,
I so hear you on the wishing for a closeness that will never come. And the seeing of others and their seemingly close families and feeling sad inside. I have SO been there and still am sometimes. It has taken me many years to accept what my parents can be for me and what they can't. I have learned to not expect anything of them. And then, once in a while, they do give or try to give to me. Then I am simply grateful for the offering. Trying to rid myself of expectations of their behavior is a constant struggle. I still feel such profound emptiness and pain from that great discrepancy between the childhood I had and the childhood I needed. I am lucky, I suppose that my parents are not abusive. My situation is probably very different from yours, but I hear that pain you feel and know it so well. I am learning to fill those spaces and trying (uphill battle all the way for me) to open myself up to the love that the universe has for me and allow that love to come to me from whatever creative place it may. I am confident that you will find that place too. Where you have "family" around you and filling you up and recieving love from you. I guess it is hope, you know? What else do we have? I just saw this movie starring Diane Lane, "Under the Tuscan Sun". (I may be getting that title wrong). Have you seen it? It is about a gal whose husband leaves her and she has no family. She goes on a vacation to Italy and ends us buying a house there. In one scene, she looks out in her new garden and wishes that she had people to feed and to someday have a wedding in her backyard. At the end of the movie, she realizes that all of her wishes were granted, although not in any expected or forseen way. I think it will be like that for us!!!
So, here's to the universe! and all of its possibilities!
All my love,
Poppyseed
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thanks CB! I think I might really enjoy that. I give it a look see!
--poppy
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Sun blue I've been thinking about your posts for several days because your situation is so familiar to me.
First they teach you that there is nothing of worth about you.
Then they teach you that your only value is going to be judged on how well you serve them and their expectations and attend to them.
Then they ignore you. And it also sounds like they don't even give you the chance to 'prove your value' their way - which is a trap anyway.
It's confusing and makes no sense, but there's also no solution by the rules of this 'game' as to how you can have value and be valued. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. This whole game is a pack of lies. You already have value and live among those who have already decided, and show day after day, that they will never acknowledge the truth. So, they live a lie and you suffer for it.
In my experience, when the parent gets sick they will not call upon the GC. They will call upon you. And you will think "here is a way I can show my love and prove to them my good faith." Personally, I found this to be a trap, but I can see from Hops posts that it really depends on where you are in your life. Meanwhile, the GC looks down on you for willingly slaving for your parents (because it is willingly if misguidedly) and says to herself how lucky she is not to be a sucker and to have a life so much better than yours, and your parents make your life a living hell while treating you as a worthless slave whom they despise. Meanwhile, they write their will to leave all the money to the GC.
If you go into caretaking thinking it will lead to some resolution, peace, understanding, relationship - no. I did not find that it did anything but intensify the issues. It does not sound to me that you have even begun to discover nurturing and caring for and enjoying and cultivating yourself, your innate value, your worth, your happiness. I hope that is where you ultimately put your interest and future.
My therapist asked me "when will you stop mourning your dad?" And she was right. I was in mourning and it was a mourning that was untimely. I didn't even recognize it. It had no natural course, because he isn't dead and it is never over. But something is dead, and that is hope. Something is dead - and that is a good relationship. My illusions - dead.
I hope so many things for you. I've been so depressed too. I hope you mourn what is dead and move on. I hope you choose to live because you are so alive. Hope you get a new job soon and you can put some distance between yourself and these twisted, toxic, invalidating people.
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Iphi,
Great insight! Your descriptions of the "trap" really helped me to understand my own feelings better. So often I get confused when I fall into the caretaking or proving value roles. Thanks for saying it so clearly for me. I often feel that one reason I need to distance myself from my N family is that I get so confused and lose my center so fast when I am with them.
Anyway, thanks for shining the light and speaking clarity!!
--poppy
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Welcome, Sunblue. For me, the answer to your question lies in sensitivity. Please get a copy of "The Highly Sensitive Person" and find yourself there. I know this was true for me - I was the sensitive one and the smartest and the only girl. Now one brother is dead b/c he could not cope and the other has his head in the sand, is totally passive, and has been divorced going on the third time.
All your questions are at home here.
towrite.
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I LUV THIS BOARD!! It's amazing how much alike many of our situations are. I will definitely get that book about "Highly Sensitive People". Definitely sounds like me. In fact, I've been accused of being "sensitive" by my family forever, usually when I would balk at their hurtful behavior. Here's a perfect example. A few years back, I was in a job where I had the opportunity to travel a bit. One year, I knew I would have work responsibilities that would take me to Hawaii for a week. For Christmas that year, I told my parents, brother and sister-in-law that as a Christmas present, I would be taking them with me for a week. I booked the trip, carefully planned the itinerary with a travel agent, reserved a very nice condo on the beach at Maui. I was to leave a week before everyone else for work and they would follow a week later. Well, two days before I was to leave, I received the tickets from the travel agent and I discovered the itinerary was wrong. I had arranged for them to stop over on the Big Island so they would have a chance to see Pearl Harbor before flying home. Well, apparently, my NPD mom didn't like that idea. Instead of talking to me about it, she went behind my back and convinced the travel agent to change the itinerary. I was livid! When I confronted them, my dad just said "Oh, don't be like that. It'll be fine." Just me being "sensitive" again. Needless to say, my trip was ruined.
When one of you posted about how they never value you but set you up to try and prove you have value only to ignore you, well you hit it right on the button. Exactly! It is so hard to be ignored and rejected constantly.
I find myself getting more angry and resentful, even at my "healthy" brother who seems to have gotten everything he wanted. He has a great marriage, a child who adores him, a nice home, a great job (which he got thanks to a former colleague). He's never had to struggle for anything. He's always got those things that are most important to him. On the other hand, I can honestly say no matter how hard I struggle, how hard I work, nothing ever works out. I never get a break. I know this must sound terrible but sometimes it is just so hard to take. I look around me and people seem to be happy, have loving relationships, good jobs and aren't in the kind of pain and rejection cycle I am.
I'm wondering if this has been a pattern for any of you? Do you think there's a connection between our NPD parents behavior toward us, our so-called "sensitivity" and depression, and lack of positive things in our lives?
For me, at least at this point in the process, what is most difficult is knowing I am entirely alone. There is not a single person who cares what I want, believe, think or feel. In my family, everyone seems to go on with their lives with the attitude "to hell with her". That is just so hurtful. I find it nearly impossible to tolerate a lack of empathy and willingness to compromise in people. I feel like I've compromised for everyone and it is never reciprocated. I'm still left alone.
Oh well, sorry. It's one of those days for me. I didn't sleep at all last night. This just eats at me. Like one poster said, the hope is gone. I will never receive the attention, love and interest I so desperately needed from my family. And if you can't receive it from your own family, then there's really no hope.
Thanks for listening...:)
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And if you can't receive it from your own family, then there's really no hope.
Time to make yourself a family and a community you can thrive in:
women's support group
volunteer group
12-step group
therapy group
church
meditation group
singing group
This is how people build families of choice. And you can too, dear Sunblue.
The real hope in life is to know that you can learn how to go out and intentionally construct healthy relationships with a variety of good people who, over time, can become as precious to you as any relative.
love
Hops
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Hi All:
Me again. I read your posts and can certainly identify. My brother has chosen to "distance" myself and I am certainly feeling the consequences of that. It just adds to my sadness. Not only do I mourn the lack of closeness with parents and an NPD sister, I also now have to deal with the realization that my "healthy" bro wants to distance myself. He is the healthy one with a wonderful wife and child, lucky career and nice home. If he has been affected at all by having an NPD parent, I see it in his need to constantly "do". He literally cannot sit still. He is always working around the house or on the run doing something. So, he claims he doesn't have "time" for me. I've always been of the belief that if someone matters to you, you make time for them. So, once again, I feel not good enough and abandoned. But oh well.
Recently, I went out of town for a few days to get away from everything. As usual, I traveled alone and this time it kind of got to me. When I returned, my NPD mom never even asked if I had a good time or anything. It's like I don't exist at all. It just is so very heartbreaking.
I want to get that book about "highly sensitive people". I have to wonder though if people who aren't sensitive would be affected by an NPD parent or significant other. It seems like people who are labeled as "sensitive" are blamed for feeling the way they do. But wouldn't any halfway normal human being be affected by the way NPDs treat us?
It leaves you feeling very lonely and hopeless. At least it does with me. Oh well, thanks for listening and sharing your insights. If anyone comes across any good books on the subject, let me know. I'd love to read more about it.
Thanks!
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Hi sun blue. It was sad to read of your incredibly generous Hawaii trip present and the way that worked out. It was like seeing you spend an incredibly amount of yourself in a show of your faith in them, in modeling how you would like to be loved in return. You went by the better to give than to receive idea. I've never given such a huge present to my N-ish family but I've had plenty of experience in the spurned or unused gifts department. My dad will ignore gifts that he has even requested. Even from my sister who is the GC. He asked for Netflix and she got him a subscription - never activated it. I got him a cell phone package because he is disabled and it would be handy to have with him if he ever ran out of battery on his chair or experienced any other difficulty. He never touched it.
Sad fact of the matter is that even with a non-N, you and I cannot control how a present is received. We hope and wish that it will be wanted, liked and appreciated - but it is not up to us. We do our best when we give it. However, there is NO reason to keep giving our best to people who will only always do their worst. If you gave a present to someone who truly liked it and truly liked you and appreciated the gift and appreciated you - it would be a wonderful wonderful experience. I want you to have that experience in your life, but it won't happen with your parents or sibs.
It's like all your life energy is pouring into bottomless pits. That's why people call them vampires. You have to stop this energy drain and conserve it for better uses. Please don't squander yourself. You are a wonderful person. Hey, give me a trip to Hawaii - I will appreciate it! I joke.
I think that I had said in my original post that I had experienced clinical depression. I've had extended low periods after that depression, but never as black. So I do know that experience from the inside. When I read your posts, I can hear the depression at work on you - I see you saying things the way I said - that there is no hope and you will never be loved - because you are focused in like a laser beam on the same people who have never been able to reciprocate with you. Focusing on them is very depressing. I know. I was there. And living with them - oi! Your well being is so important and it is not good to live with the people who undermine it. I realize you are between jobs but I will rejoice the day you are ready to move out.
You have to save yourself. You have to save yourself from them. You keep going to the same people who never gave you love and asking them "now will you? How about now? And now? What about now?" I did that for decades too. Who knows, if I have a vulnerable moment tomorrow, next week, next year - I bet I will do it again too. Despite everything. But I know what will happen - same thing as has always happened - I will get rejected, ignored and mistreated. Again. So that's why I stopped asking them and focusing on them.
You must find new beings to love who can love you back like you deserve. You need to get away from them. You need to open up your future and to NOT KNOW the answers. If you stay with them you know what the answer will be - it will be No.
Come on out. Come away with us escapees. We escaped and we left them behind and we found new life and new mysteries and questions. And they are better. It is better.
It sounds like you have given them plenty of chances. Give yourself some chances for a change.
Anyway, I've been dying to say these things to you because I guess I wish someone had been around to say them to me. ((((sun blue))))
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Iphi, thank you for your lovely post. I know you are so right. It is so hard not to zero in on the NPD parents and siblings. I went away for a few days over Labor Day and when I came back, my NPD mom never even asked if I had a nice time or what I did, etc. It just immediately brought be back to the "rejected, ignored, disrespected" feelings I know I get from them each and every time. It just made me cry.
Mostly, I just feel really alone. It seems when it comes to people, the overriding them in my life is rejection. I always seem to care so much more about others than they do me. They all just seem to do whatever they want without any regard whatsoever of me or my feelings. Consequently, I guess I'm the needier person. They have the people they want in their lives. My "healthy" brother has his wife, daughter, in-laws and friends. My NPD mom and co-dependent dad have each other and their "chosen child" NPD daughter. And I have no one. Plus, no matter how hard I try (and believe me I have tried hard), I can't find a new job which would allow me to move. I really wish I knew what I did to deserve to get to this place.
There's a therapist in my area who specializes or at least is knowledgeable about NPD and I would love to see her for some help but that will have to wait until I am employed again.
This feeling of total worthlessness and hopelessness can be so overwhelming. So I really appreciate all your posts and support. It is good to know that it is not just me, that others experience what I do. When you deal with these NPD parents, especially when they're accompanies by another NPD sibling and co-dependent father who do nothing but support the NPD parent, it is so hard to know what is and what isn't healthy anymore. THey make me feel like I'm the loser, the failure, the sick one.
Oh well. Thanks again for posting....