Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: hannah38 on August 25, 2007, 05:03:12 PM
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I found this board and am hoping, by the messages I've read so far, that there is support here. I have a complicated situation. Part of me wanted to respond to "has your child ever..." but I decided to just post it here.
I've married a man whom I love to pieces. I married him over the severe objections of my father and his wife. Because essentially, for the entire time I dated this man, they have disliked him. My father doesn't like him because he is rather uneducated (though he is quite strong) and my father's wife said I would be "settling." He is very damaged and has a turbulent history. His lost his mother at an early age and experienced severe abuse. Nonetheless, he listens to me a lot (which I love), we have in-depth conversations, he prays with me, we both love the wilderness. It was a very difficult relationship in the beginning and we broke up--I couldn't take his N-ish behavior. During the break-up, my father's wife urged me not to return to him, citing his "antisocial behavior", "big huge personality disorder," and on and on. I have felt this woman to be very controlling, she is often haughty, if you attempt to tell her she has been rude she says you are projecting... and her behavior escalated after he spoke up about her rudeness. She said she refused to have a relationship with someone who "said those things" about her.
Actually, I too was upset with him because he said to my father that she was rude and I had asked him for a long time not to say anything. He says he will never forget how my father stared me down and intimidated me. I do think my father genuinely loves me, but I have often felt that if I don't do what he wants me to do then he becomes furious. "Fine! If you don't want my advice, then get out!" He is a smart person, and has a very caring spirit. At the same time, he doesn't deal with my living my own life well. My fiancee said some ugly things and said he wouldn't give me the ring if I wanted it and he'd not ever marry me, I felt I had to choose, and I ended up walking out that night.
My father's wife offered me a place to stay which I, after much reluctance, accepted. It was my father's house, after all. She later made much to do about my being there and her invitation and how she wouldn't have made it if my fiancee wasn't so terrifying. During this time, my fiancee did have a temper fit (he is Italian, too) and my father was frightened at what he heard from someone else. My fiancee did not come to the house or call, so there was no contact directly. During this time, she said I had had a "close call," in almost marrying him, said that one day he would hit me (which he wouldn't and she said if I believed that then...--he has never hit me and actually despises men who batter wives because of his father's behavior), and basically said that he was a sociopath. My father was paying for therapy which I allowed. She kept bringing up how much money my father was spending on me and how I had "no excuse" to get involved with this man. I basically felt I heard the message that I "owed" them because of my father paying for therapy. Actually, I accepted it as reparation but his wife seems to think that I am spoiled. I thought carefully about the situation and decided to terminate therapy that was too expensive for me to afford. My sister also needed therapy, but she refused to have my father pay for it. I see now why!
I decided to terminate therapy, get a counselor I could afford on my own, and marry this man. Which is exactly what I did. I sent a loving note to all my family. I got a reply stating that my father was withdrawing his financial support (which I didn't expect after marriage anyway) because "my husband insisted" which was not the case. I had told him about a private conversation between me and my then fiancee in which my fiancee had urged me to end having my father pay for treatment, offering instead to pay for it himself. My husband never made a statement to my father directly. So, I felt this was an odd explanation. At any rate, because I had already terminated treatment, I didn't respond to this.
I feel like this entire icky story is on my heart. I just appreciate those of you who might give me some encouragement.
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Welcome, Hannah,
May I ask how long you have been married?
Your father's wife sounds very much like my mother... controlling, haughty... and especially the part where she told you that you had "no excuse" getting involved with your husband.
My mother referred to my npd-ex as "an overgrown infant"... and sadly, she was right. On the other hand, sometimes it takes one to know one. Your husband sounds very much like my ex... could you describe this N-ish behaviour which led to your first break-up?
Another thing... you mentioned that your father "has a very caring spirit". That just doesn't mesh with the image I get of him staring you down and trying to intimidate you.
Sometimes we have these pictures of people as being thus and so... because that's how we've needed to perceive them, in order to even manage dealing with them for so long. I do think that as you post and share here, your own picture will become more complete and you'll come to see things that haven't yet come to light.
And I wondered... at this point, what is your primary concern in these relationships - your husband or your father?
Again, welcome! Looking forward to visiting with you some more, as you're able :)
Hope
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Hannah,
You sound like the ball that's being passed between the others "playing the game".
Your boundaries suck, my dear.
After age 18 when your parents try and tell you what to do in your relationship, you say - "thanks for that wisdom and advice" if that's what you feel - or "What a bunch of rubbish thank you very much" - or "Despite what you say I heed your warning but want to do this anyway".
As soon as these other people get the message that you can't be bandied (sp?) about like a rubber ball, then they will realize you are serious - you have choices and decisions that belong to you and no one else.
I realize that we want our parents to respect our choices but how can they do that when they don't even respect your right to HAVE a choice?
First step - stand up for that.
You are independent otherwise and seem able to make a decision about your relationship on your own. Nurture that part of you that makes good choices and keep doing same!!!!
Love,
Dandylife
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Oh Hannah:
It sounds like you're the really nice glue person, everyone wants to have around, bc they'd be stuck with themselves if you they didn't have you.
I don't know what to say but I do agree with Dandy that your boundaries suck. Llife will be much better for you if you discover, set and enforce some healthy boundaries (like a mama tiger protecting her babies) :shock:
Sorry this is happening to you, dear.
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Welcome, Hannah.
It sounds like quicksand. I'm sorry, and no wonder your heart is heavy.
How long have you been married?
Do you feel anxious?
Seems like you are tracking everyone's responses to you so much that it's hard to live your own life.
I understand that habit, I had it for decades.
This is a very good place to get support for learning where you end and another begins,
and how to step back and let that space sit.
You will feel much better when you're standing straight up in your shoes, feeling balanced
no matter what is going on with someone else.
Hopalong
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Thank you Dandylife,
This is how I feel: I don't have the right to a choice. I decided to make one anyway, because it felt ridiculous to not make one out of fear. Thank you for encouragement. It is very difficult for me to say "no" to a mental health professional (my father's wife). To trust my own self. To feel that my choices are my own. This, obviously, began way before she was in my life. I have had difficulties with feeling I have a right to my voice, choices, feelings, life--since I can remember. Thanks again. :shock:
Hannah,
You sound like the ball that's being passed between the others "playing the game".
Your boundaries suck, my dear.
After age 18 when your parents try and tell you what to do in your relationship, you say - "thanks for that wisdom and advice" if that's what you feel - or "What a bunch of rubbish thank you very much" - or "Despite what you say I heed your warning but want to do this anyway".
As soon as these other people get the message that you can't be bandied (sp?) about like a rubber ball, then they will realize you are serious - you have choices and decisions that belong to you and no one else.
I realize that we want our parents to respect our choices but how can they do that when they don't even respect your right to HAVE a choice?
First step - stand up for that.
You are independent otherwise and seem able to make a decision about your relationship on your own. Nurture that part of you that makes good choices and keep doing same!!!!
Love,
Dandylife
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Hopalong, we have been married two months. I am very anxious, because I basically had to disengage from my father to do this. I think he is probably very angry with me. My boundaries are lacking, I admit this. I haven't wanted to lose him.
Yep. I do track others responses so much. I am trying to not do this, to relax a bit.
Welcome, Hannah.
It sounds like quicksand. I'm sorry, and no wonder your heart is heavy.
How long have you been married?
Do you feel anxious?
Seems like you are tracking everyone's responses to you so much that it's hard to live your own life.
I understand that habit, I had it for decades.
This is a very good place to get support for learning where you end and another begins,
and how to step back and let that space sit.
You will feel much better when you're standing straight up in your shoes, feeling balanced
no matter what is going on with someone else.
Hopalong
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This is a very good place to get support for learning where you end and another begins,
and how to step back and let that space sit.
You will feel much better when you're standing straight up in your shoes, feeling balanced
no matter what is going on with someone else.
Thank you. I've been wanting to write my father a letter. I am not sure about this yet. Not a mean letter, simply a letter. I feel like every time I get near my FOO, I feel the whirpool waves. :shock:
Welcome, Hannah.
It sounds like quicksand. I'm sorry, and no wonder your heart is heavy.
How long have you been married?
Do you feel anxious?
Seems like you are tracking everyone's responses to you so much that it's hard to live your own life.
I understand that habit, I had it for decades.
This is a very good place to get support for learning where you end and another begins,
and how to step back and let that space sit.
You will feel much better when you're standing straight up in your shoes, feeling balanced
no matter what is going on with someone else.
Hopalong
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Thank you Certain Hope.
We have been married two months. My husband really loves my father to pieces but my father isn't receptive. Dad's wife says if I married him I'd lose all my money, she said he might steal my car, that he would hit me. Et cetera. ??? My concern now is my father. I haven't had much contact with him since we married, and I don't know how to navigate this. I feel a bit in the middle.
Welcome, Hannah,
May I ask how long you have been married?
Your father's wife sounds very much like my mother... controlling, haughty... and especially the part where she told you that you had "no excuse" getting involved with your husband.
My mother referred to my npd-ex as "an overgrown infant"... and sadly, she was right. On the other hand, sometimes it takes one to know one. Your husband sounds very much like my ex... could you describe this N-ish behaviour which led to your first break-up?
Another thing... you mentioned that your father "has a very caring spirit". That just doesn't mesh with the image I get of him staring you down and trying to intimidate you.
Sometimes we have these pictures of people as being thus and so... because that's how we've needed to perceive them, in order to even manage dealing with them for so long. I do think that as you post and share here, your own picture will become more complete and you'll come to see things that haven't yet come to light.
And I wondered... at this point, what is your primary concern in these relationships - your husband or your father?
Again, welcome! Looking forward to visiting with you some more, as you're able :)
Hope
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Thank you. What is a glue person? :?: I have always felt that it was my job to keep my family together, to create peace, to soothe everyone. The problem is, I want to live my life. I get a lot of messages about how much has been provided for me and given to me. This is driving me a bit bonkers. I've had opportunities that I am grateful for; I've been very blessed. However, I have also made decisions on my own and created some of my life on my own.
Oh Hannah:
It sounds like you're the really nice glue person, everyone wants to have around, bc they'd be stuck with themselves if you they didn't have you.
I don't know what to say but I do agree with Dandy that your boundaries suck. Llife will be much better for you if you discover, set and enforce some healthy boundaries (like a mama tiger protecting her babies) :shock:
Sorry this is happening to you, dear.
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The amount of blame is pretty painful. :(
Sorry, I should've combined all these into one post. I'll do that next time.
hi hannah,
welcome
I can really relate to your story. Nothing hurts like being told you shouldn't marry someone who you feel loves and accepts you - and listens.
One thing I picked out of your post is that there seems to be quite a bit of blame going around. Minimizing this blame game is something you could work on with your new counselor, if you wanted?
My FOO were masters at it; the Game goes something like this:
1) you Should Have known X and/or done Y...- statements like this are only intended to cast shame & blame on others, they are not helpful
2) He is caring - seems like a judgement, doesn't it?
3) She has a temper (another judgement?)
4) My father objects (so?)
5) So and so is spoiled...
could go on and on..
Healthy familes simply don't use this kind of vocabulary. It doesn't need to be like this, I mean.
hugs,
bean
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Hi Certain Hope,
The behavior that led to... ... ... incessant complaining about details, the same details, throughout the day. Anger with everyone (it was hard to keep friends) because it was always someone else's fault. I was supporting him but the house, car, cell phone weren't good enough... lack of gratitude (and I didn't ever ask him to work)... We are Christian, and he stopped wanting to pray or go to church... he had a stony silence much of the time, and when I asked for more time on the engagement he became angry and said he'd move out that day (we weren't intimate anymore, tho at the beginning we were, but we stopped until marriage)... I was just miserable a lot, cried a lot. I didn't speak up enough. I'm sorry this isn't well organized...
Welcome, Hannah,
May I ask how long you have been married?
Your father's wife sounds very much like my mother... controlling, haughty... and especially the part where she told you that you had "no excuse" getting involved with your husband.
My mother referred to my npd-ex as "an overgrown infant"... and sadly, she was right. On the other hand, sometimes it takes one to know one. Your husband sounds very much like my ex... could you describe this N-ish behaviour which led to your first break-up?
Another thing... you mentioned that your father "has a very caring spirit". That just doesn't mesh with the image I get of him staring you down and trying to intimidate you.
Sometimes we have these pictures of people as being thus and so... because that's how we've needed to perceive them, in order to even manage dealing with them for so long. I do think that as you post and share here, your own picture will become more complete and you'll come to see things that haven't yet come to light.
And I wondered... at this point, what is your primary concern in these relationships - your husband or your father?
Again, welcome! Looking forward to visiting with you some more, as you're able :)
Hope
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Hannah,
I must tell you that a very major part of the reason why I stayed with my npd ex-husband for longer than 1 month was my not wanting to admit that my mother was right about him.
The behavior which led to your first break up is identical to what I experienced. I, too, did not speak up enough. He was "Christian", also... and prayer was only one of the things he withheld when my behavior did not suit him. You see, I was raised to be voiceless and N recognized that, and he capitalized on it. Within 3 years, I was financially broke and emotionally broken.
With your father... if you can draw a verbal picture of what you'd like your relationship with him to be and really impress that upon your own mind, then I think you'll be in a good position to convey that to him.
Have you read Dr. Grossman's essays re: voicelessness, etc? If not, that would be a great place to begin.
I just read them again today and am thinking of sending a copy of one to my own parents, in an attempt to show them where I am... and where I've been.
I'm not sure how to do that as a way of explaining, and not blaming, but I hope to sort that out. Something similar may work for you?
With love,
Hope
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Dear Hope,
Thank you for your very helpful suggestions.
I am just beside myself because my father's wife is calling everyone (my aunt on my mother's side, my best friend) double-checking my whereabouts, what I've been doing, that we got married, etc. WHY is she doing this???? This is driving me crazy. Just really really bugs me. I understand that she is double-checking everything and asking questions. But she has not contacted me since I didn't call her back two months ago. I just needed space.
My aunt said to me, "You need to live your life; they need to live their life." I really appreciated that. How do I deal with this "checking up"? What was that meant to do? WHY does it BUG me soooo much?
My father hasn't been well and he said that their prayers and love "go with you in your new life." I know he must be mad at me but I just needed to make my own decision about whom to love. I really don't know that he wanted contact but then his wife called my best friend a couple of days ago and said his injury had been "serious, you know." He hasn't asked to see me or talk to me and I've been very very cautious--very very cautious. I have missed him and I do feel terribly badly. At the same time, I just get so upset. If truth be told, I would've seen him but I haven't wanted to contend with her and her saying how evil hubbie is and saying he will hit me--etc etc. I just want to move on.
My sister and brother have wished me well and sent me all their love. They know it is difficult but are willing to love me and respect my choices (for better or worse).
Since we got married, hubbie has had one slip-up. I am ever hopeful that he will change. He has been addressing his "self-centered" behavior (his word), his insensitivity. I got the sense that he wanted this to work so badly that he is intent on changing his behavior. He says he doesn't "ever want to go back." I hope that is the case because I think we both realize it won't work if he does.
I think that yes, my father made valid points. I really appreciate his concerns for me. Since his wife has called my best friend (a couple of days ago) and said "we tried," (to keep Hannah away from him, in other words) I'm just so mad. At one point she said she would never ever have a relationship with my hubbie. So where do I go from here???
I feel that my hubbie has some N problems. I also really didn't want to give up, especially when he was so devastated when I left and has behaved so well the last two months. He also has gotten counseling. I missed him so much.
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Dear Hannah,
My mother operates in the same way, asking my grown children about my activities or, if they won't communicate with her,
asking me about them. It's a matter of control for her, I believe... the source of her very life, wrapped up in these bits and pieces
of information which give her an illusion of being "in charge".
I get the sense that your father's wife may have the added vested interest here in using this info she gleans on your dad as a weapon,
but that's only a hunch of mine. It's the old "knowledge is power" addage.
Hannah, I'm sorry... I don't know that you can really do anything about her checking up, other than to simply ignore it.
She's probably getting her jollies out of engaging in this sort of gossipy behavior with a tone of concern for
your wellbeing, but I doubt whether anyone is fooled by that. You could ask these other folks
to please not share their knowledge with her, if you think they'd abide by that, but if that gets back to her,
then you've just poured fuel onto her fire.
I really, really do understand how frustrating and maddening her invasive snoopiness is to you, but I also know that it's
possible for you to get beyond that point, to where she can do as she pleases and you won't be disturbed.
This stuff always bothered me so much, because it made me feel like I was being controlled.
But when you really think about it... what can she do to you?
Absolutely nothing but buzz around like a very large, annoying queen bee.
That bit about calling your best friend re: your father's "very serious" injury... oh, boy, does that ever sound like my mother.
It's all a load of hot air she spouts to gather attention to herself. If you'd like, you could send your dad a "get well" sort of greeting, addressed only to him,
with the word "personal" or "confidential" stamped in bold on the outer envelope. He's your father and you have every right and reason
to communicate your feelings - your love and prayers for his healing - to him alone.
I hope and pray that your husband abides by his word, his pledge to you... but that is between you and him and God.
Your father's wife needs to shut her trap and acknowledge that you have left, and now it's time for you to cleave.
Sounds like your dad has acknowledged that. God bless him!
But Hannah, just please do be aware that you do not ever have to stay in an abusive relationship simply for the sake
of proving that woman wrong. She cannot curse your marriage, but she could certainly mess with your head if the time came
that you really needed to draw a line in the sand with your husband but were reluctant to do so because of her influence.
A cord of three strands - you & your husband, each bound to Jesus personally and braided together in union around Him -
that is not easily broken.
With love,
Hope
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Hi Hannah-
I am sorry that you have had such a rough time of it. Have you sent a get well card to your father? Is he still in the hospital and is there some time of day that you can visit or call without StepMom being there? People sometimes have hidden agendas that one may not even consider when dealing with them- StepMom may want you out of the picture, may be jealous, etc- do they have any children together? You deserve to be with people who care about you and support your happiness and freedon as an individual. Please take good care of yourself and do what you need to do- don't be ashamed or afraid to do what is right for you, learn , grow and make changes- you don't have to prove anything to anyone, and they are all as human and imperfect as you are. You are not alone-the lovely people on this board have been of immeasurable help to me, and I am sure that you will find valuable support here as well.
God Bless You,
Changing
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Dear Hope,
I cannot tell you what a blessing your forthcoming, honest, balanced, compassionate words are. I will re-read what you wrote because there is so much help in it for me. ..."buzz around like a very large, annoying queen bee."... that actually got me to LOL. It also is a visual that helps me minimize this down to size, if that makes sense.
It hadn't occurred to me that she might have a vested interest (with dad) but I will say that I've observed her, time and time again, involve people in situations to sort of pull strings. In other words, she will get my brother (who she knows that I adore--he is much older) to say her words to me--and then I am left feeling manipulated and mad at my brother as well (although I too find it very hard to say no to her and so I don't say anything to him). I find that absolutely objectionable--there is something about it that just makes me so...mad. There seems to be a secondary motive to every word and action which seems utterly exhausting. At least it would be for me: I don't think that way. Yes, this all feels very intrusive and I feel like saying "Give it up! Leave me alone! Mind your own beeswax!" So, yes, I thought of asking my friend to...sort of say something like... "I cannot get in the middle," or... here's the thing...
my friend desperately wants a gift to an organization that is provided by my father's wife. I said to her that she might want to think about just letting it go but that this would be her decision; she said she really wants it. I have a feeling she will be beholden, or feel so, if she accepts it. At the moment, this is the "reason" for my father's wife contacting her (again, about things that were settled with that two months ago). This is the other behavior that drives me nuts (vent vent) ... my father's wife gives, or provides something, and then demands a return favor. Or expects it. This is as much a part of the behavior as involving other people. You're right, I feel controlled. I'm trying to turn it over to God and pray about it and not let it get to me.
Without pretending to diagnose, are these N-ish behaviors? Or just very annoying ones? I am going through the articles, which I find very helpful. Especially the one about "little voices".
I like the idea about a card to my father alone. That helps as confirmation since I had been thinking about that; giving it to my sister to give to him when she sees him. He doesn't understand why his children have a tough time with her (his wife) and tells me that I wouldn't be where I am "without her" and so forth. That simply is not true. I have made my own decisions, and frankly, listened a lot to him in the making of them. She has helped here and there, but what he attributes to her makes little sense to me.
I appreciate your words about my husband, the bond, and our marriage. As well as the caveat.
with love
Hannah