Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gratitude28 on August 28, 2007, 12:06:56 PM
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Hi All,
I fully expect that you will think I am wrong and sneaky for what I did... I am. Feel free to lambaste me as necessary...
When my mother came to visit, she logged into her email account and as it is yahoo, it stays logged in unless you sign out. I read her email. I think I really wanted to find something to prove to me what a snake she is... and I did (but what I did was still wrong).
Rewind... I did the same thing as a kid. My parents both worked and we lived in the middle of nowhere and were home all alone in the summer. I read my mother's diaries... and found that she had been attracted to one of my parent's friends and, apparently, had a relationship with him that my dad knew about. (She said int he diary that she had told him she liked this man and he told her "it's only sex.") I was thinking about this all last night and this was either right before she had my sister (!) or right after having her. Again, what I did was wrong. I was a bored kid, but that is no excuse.
So... look through my mom's sent mail and apparently she has been having sex chats with this same man - and - this is what bothers me most about it - she writes to him to be careful as my dad might come home, or to chat on the weekend as he will be gone. I am disgusted with her. So she is loving the secrecy and the action and I think she is a hateful bitch to do this. She uses my dad to buy her crap, supports him in nothing and this...
Of course I shouldn't know ANY of this. I contemplated forwarding the email to my sister and dad (NO, I WOULD NEVER) but the thought is interesting.
Help please. I know I was wrong.
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It's tempting to use it to crush her with - I would be very tempted! But try to remember that when you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas. Or that if you fight a pig then you too will get covered in mud and who can tell the difference between you? Anyway, those are the things I say to myself when I am really, really struggling not to return fire. And as far as your actions - hey, you know? You did what you did and you feel the effects of it and many of us have been in your shoes, I have no doubt. It's human and we are human too. If you are thinking you can rescue your dad and/or your sister - they may not thank you for the 'rescue.' Do you see what I mean? Your dad picks this situation every day - he has to rescue himself. Those are just some thoughts as your equal and fellow board member. Good luck with it all - sounds like a minefield.
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Hi Iphi,
Thank you so much for your response. You know what is hurting so much? My dad. My dad grew up with a horrible mom and then married this woman. He has never known what a nice person or relationship is. He is now only 62, but is very overweight and having a lot of trouble. He still works full time to pay for the crap my mother "has to have." He thinks of retiring, but there is no way they could. He starts to lose weight and she sabotages him (Don't you want a bit more... aren't you still hungry?) Yes, he is a grown man. And he is a man who never grew up. I hate it all.
I was already pretty disgusted with her before this. I went to my Uncles viewing this weekend. I cared about him very much. He has been sick with Alzheimer's for a long time. She did not go - they were returning from vacation and didn't feel like shortening their time. So she called to "Thank me for going." I told her I did not go for her. I went for me. She also called to lie to me - they had been on vacation near me and my uncle, who was with them, said "Why aren't you here?" I told him I wasn't invited. Laughed - made it a joke. She called to say she wanted to invite me but thought my uncle would be upset, yada yada yada. More BS.
Sorry, I have been holding a lot in. Lots of stress.
Love you all,
Beth
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I know I was wrong.
Is invading the privacy of someone who harms you wrong?
I'm not sure of the answer in your particular case, Beth, but it is most definitely not always wrong.
Nor am I certain it is without question wrong to forward the email to your sister and father. It may be, but I don't think it is cut and dry. They're being lied to, especially your father (presumably).
If your spouse was cheating on you and your father knew would you want him to tell you? I don't know the answer to that one way or the other, but it might give you a different perspective to think of it in those terms.
mud
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mud,
I was afraid you would think I was the most wrong of all. I am struggling with all that too. But I don't want to hurt my dad. But then again, I wonder if my dad isn't already puzzled enough about his life. And my sister is the golden child. I just don't know that I could... cause all that mess. But so much of me feels as you do. I so honor marriage and feel this is so wrong.
Love, Beth
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Wow Beth, what a lot of things are going on right now. I'm sorry. Mudpuppy always has thoughts that really make me re-think my own thoughts. It's such a tough one. But... your dad has previously known of when she was involved with this same man right? Is it possible he could already know now? Do you have a therapist or someone in your life you can talk over the options and possibilities with, taking your time?
And it is really awful. You have my compassionate support.
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Jac,
I thought over the same thing. I think the WHY is beacuse I wanted to find some proof that I am not crazy...
They came to visit and she was on pretty good behavior. I didn't quite doubt my beliefs about her... but I did want to see what she really is like. And I know she maligns me, but I haven't seen her first-hand doing it. So, that is why I believe I did it. I was actually looking to see if she said something about me like she says about everyone else, "God, I hate to do it, but we are going to spend three days with my high-maintenance daughter ." That sort of thing. Again, that doesn't make it nice on my part.
Iphi, I know that he knew back then and they have all remained friends. But she writes, "Go online this weekend, as H won't be here." And, "Have to go soon, H is coming home." So she has made it into a sick game. That is how I know Dad doesn't know.
Thanks all for responding. This is hard... all of it... and I was not going to share because it is so icky.
I don't intend to do anything at this point. And I don't dare tell any 3D people... even my husband.
Love, Beth
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Dear Beth,
I feel... so sad, for you, finding this evidence, because it's so hurtful to see a parent in such a grim light. And it's very difficult to view such disrespect between your mother and father, for one to treat the other so deceitfully... I've struggled with that alot, too... feeling somehow contaminated just by my knowledge of the ways my mother and dad undermine each other.
And I've been nosy & snooped... and never learned anything good by it, but I do believe that all things are for a reason, and can be worked together for good.
One option that I might consider, in this case, is seeing to it that your mother receives blind copies of these emails. I can't say it would do any real good, except it would definitely remove her little thrill of secrecy in the whole mess. Personally, I'd get some satisfaction out of that!
Hugs,
Hope
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I was afraid you would think I was the most wrong of all.
There are a few truths that I consider absolute and essential. All the rest are shades of grey and how much black and how much white is in each situation is determined by human behavior and intentions. We tend to look at appearances, but God looks at the heart. In this your heart has been pure. You didn't look to hurt others only to defend yourself and understand.
I don't think you are 'most wrong of all' because I have found that, generally speaking, it is usually better in the long run for the truth and the lies to both be exposed to the same light. One will grow and the other will wither. We have to be careful of hurting innocent bystanders but if forced to act, I err on the side of the antiseptic nature of light. Antiseptics often hurt but they also often heal a wound that has remained open for years. And if they don't, then you know the wound was not meant to heal.
One option that I might consider, in this case, is seeing to it that your mother receives blind copies of these emails.
I tried to figure out a way to say this and couldn't so gave up. Praises for the literate, like CH. 8)
mud
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Dear Beth,
I am so sorry that you are going through this awful pain. How horrible to find something like this about your mother. What a betrayal------ another one.
Life can be so awful ,at times.
I really don't have any opinion on what to do. I just wanted to say that I am sorry that you are hurting, Beth ((((((((((((((((((((((Beth)))))))))))))))) Love Ami
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Hi Gratitude,
I am so sorry that you have learned this news about your mother cheating on your father. I am `grey' about snooping on N's. Snooping is a desperate attempt to know the truth when you're dealing with a dishonest, abusive person. I do not think you did anything wrong, but the fact that you feel bad about it shows that your character is moral and good.
Sadly, I can relate because my mother has cheated prolifically on my (step) father for over 23 years now. She hasn't left my father permanently, so I can only assume that she does it for attention and for gaining power her relationship. Destroying my father's spirit seems to be one of her major preoccupations in life, and to a large extent she has accomplished this after 23 years of publicly cheating on him. I think she is more open about her affairs because A. she is independently wealthy, B. because the added humiliation helps to further break my father's spirit, and C. because he tolerates it.
My opinion is that it probably wouldn't matter if your mother's affair was private or public; she would always come up with a `poor me' type of justification for it. My mother's affairs were both private and public. She chose family friends, employees, relatives, and just about anyone who gave her attention and was sufficiently immoral to tear apart a family with 6 children involved.
Mum has tried to create `myths' about her cheating over the years. Some of them include `cheating is not wrong', `I am just looking for my soul mate' `your father is so awful and controlling, how could I not cheat' (that one makes me seriously laugh).
Her latest excuse for cheating is pure gold `your father reads nature books sometimes at night' (translated as, your father has a hobby that makes him happy, so I am punishing him).
You know, I love my mother but there is part of me that HATES her with a passion. Can you love and hate a person at the same time?
X Bella
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Dear Grats - a place of pure h*** is where you are. There are, like Mud, some truths I hole above all - the catch is sometimes they contradict each other and sometimes I have to go with my gut no matter what the "truths" are that I hold dear.
First is, I will not aid and abet anyone who is harming someone else by keeping silent. Silence and secrecy are where evil grows, where hate festers, where harm is committed. When I found out how abusive my dad had been to my mother ever since they were married, I talked about it like there was no tomorrow. Silence and secrecy had protected him all those years and I'd be damned if I was going to allow it to be perpetuated. I had to endure the cold shoulders of relatives who didn't want to hear and didn't want to believe. But in the end, it helped. (Of course, she's the NM from hell, so she never acknowledged me or my help.)
Second is - and this one was harder for me - and is probably not true for you - is I had to really examine my motives for wanting to blow the whistle when I was in situations like this. I had to acknowledge that part of me wanted to be important, to be the savior, wanted to be listened to. Only after I acknowledged this was I able to take it out of the equation and really look at the possible consequences.
Perhaps your sister, the Golden Child, won't want to lose her status and, thus, will try to ruin your credibility. Possible your dad is an ostriche, has known all along, and is so helpless and non-grown-up that he will continue to be an ostriche. Is it possible they have a secret agreement between them that he will tolerate your mother's behavior so long as it doesn't infringe on their "marriage"? I know I got to the point where I knew all the possible consequences in terms of me, but I could not tolerant his hurting my mother in secret, even if she was an N.
Here's another story for the record. When my brother got divorced the first time, he came to live with me. His XN was vicious, malevolent, with a touch of schadenfreude. She told her children I had stolen their father from them, and then proceeded to call where I worked and told them a stack of vicious lies about me. I lost my job as a result. The XN asked around where she worked if she "should do the right thing" by calling my place of employment. It got back to me. Not only did I lose my job but also I was shunned in my community b/c many people believed her lies.
Now that's WRONG. But I don't see you doing anything like that. You're not an N. Maybe you're like me and were told repeatedly growing up that if you "mention a word of this, no one will believe you over me. You'll be known as a liar." Maybe not. But I had to fight those messages in order to talk about my dad's behavior outloud.
Can you print the email, cut off the identifying info (yours) and mail a copy to your sister and your dad - that is, if you decide to do anything about it.
((((((((((grats))))))))))
towrite
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Here's another story for the record. When my brother got divorced the first time, he came to live with me. His XN was vicious, malevolent, with a touch of schadenfreude. She told her children I had stolen their father from them, and then proceeded to call where I worked and told them a stack of vicious lies about me. I lost my job as a result. The XN asked around where she worked if she "should do the right thing" by calling my place of employment. It got back to me. Not only did I lose my job but also I was shunned in my community b/c many people believed her lies.
Now that's WRONG. But I don't see you doing anything like that. You're not an N. Maybe you're like me and were told repeatedly growing up that if you "mention a word of this, no one will believe you over me. You'll be known as a liar." Maybe not. But I had to fight those messages in order to talk about my dad's behavior outloud.
towrite
Dear towrite, I felt so angry when I read your story. I am so sorry that you were treated in such a way. It is the worst feeling when people actually believe the lies of an N.
love and hugs to you
X bella
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Wow.... I wish this wasn't so hurtful and troubling for you.
Nothing ickier than having to picture your parents having sex...
well.....
having to SEE them having sex :shock:
This is your father's problem,
not yours.
My advice is to either have a heart to heart with your father.....
or let it go.
I would prolly let it go, considering she told him about this years ago and it didn't seem to trouble him much then, KWIM?
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Thank you all for such heartfelt responses and such deep understanding. I am not sure how upset I am... maybe my sadness is just for my dad, who I believe gives and gives to keep peace and some sense of sanity. I do know that I was treated like a slut when I was just a child - and I am sure it was her view of herself... displaced. She spent years trying to "catch me" doing things, all while hiding things like this. I knew it then, and I am surprised, but not completely now.
I think I am bothered by the fact that everyone I talk to thinks she is so kind and sweet and funny and I just want to barf. I want to tell them what she says about them when they are not around.
Yes, I could send to email - to her (it would scare her), to my dad, to my sister... especially as it would only come from her account and be untraceable. But I wouldn't. Really. I don't want to hurt my dad or anyone. And part of me figures this is just one of many things - they are like ostriches, I believe, and they are annoyed with her when they want to be, but not if she is doing what they want.
I might ask her how this man is doing and if she's talked to him lately when I am talking to them.
I wish I could answer what you all so astutely asked - why?????? And, really, I think I am more and more distanced as I realize how deep this all goes. I have no real emotion toward her.
Thanks again. More later
Love, Beth
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Hiya Grat..................
I certainly understand the 'need to know' if you suspect something is going on! I understand the search for answers, going through someone else's papers, whatever.
When I was young, under ten, older than 5, and was told that I didn't belong, that I was adopted, I began a search. At least I think that; so it began. Maybe is was just a suspicion of my own, but at THAT AGE?
I WENT INTO MOM'S STORAGE ROOM, FULL OF BOXES AND I SEARCHED EVERY ONE, AND OVER AGAIN, AND OVER AGAIN, AND COULD NEVER FIND ANY PROOF THAT I BELONGED.
Well this is snooping but I didn't think so. I was being lied to and I needed some proof. We moved fgrom one farm to another when I was 8 and now we had an attic where all this stuff was kept. I was a loner, not belonging, and I spent my time again, going through everything in the attic. Then my grandmother sent some things for us to store, books etc. and I searched page by page. I knew there had to be proof somehwere.
Grandma died and part of what she left to the kids was one old painting apiece and money. My paointing was a lovely one in old gold with a little child. There was paper on the back and I ripped it to pieces looking for my proof and I was 17 now.
I spent 17 years searching for nothing, but it became a habit. However, what was left to search??? My daughter's father had no papers, but had a lovely men's jewelry case.........................well that took 5 minutes.
In 1998 I met the psychopath and in 6 months had moved 2000 miles away. There was something weird about him, and one day he was going away for the day, but hooked up his hard drive to my computer to help copy all my files friom a failing hard drive. I was just clicking around on stuff waiting for files to copy and I found myself on his hard drive and a 45 page document about his life.
I moved it over to my hard drive and never did anything with it, but read it. It was about his life up to March 31, 1998, one day before I met him.
Some of the things made me unserstand him better, but I also found most of it crude.
Yes. I am a snoop because I was told I didn't belong
Love Izzy
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Hi ((((((((Beth))))))))))))))
What a painful, nasty discovery. I'm really sorry.
I think part of what offends me is that she did this on your computer.
As though she dirtied your private space.
(I am sensitive to computer invasion since mine is like a mechanical journal, diary, box of letters...)
I am not sure what I would do.
Perhaps I would deal with her directly instead of through others.
Such as, forward her own emails back to her and say nothing more than:
"I prefer you not to use my computer again."
??
Hops
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Hello Gratitude-
As usual our Hoppy has gotten to the heart of the matter with her Shamanistic powers of seeing and understanding and soulful expressing (I think our darling Hops is ready now for us to share her and her beauty and charm with the world- perhaps a whirlwind dating marathon, lots of fun, no serious ties right away- we want to vet any potential suitors !)
Gratitude, your M is not only continuing her sad betrayal of your father, but the betrayal and exploitation of a fine and good daughter. By using your computer, she has made you an unwilling accomplice and put you into a potentially no-win situation, in that you could be party to hurting your father either way. But you don't have to take her sick alternatives as the only ones (tell dad or don't tell dad). You can think of something different that you are comfortable with, for example, tell her to knock her disgusting antics off and never use your computer again; tell her to level with your dad or you will, or any number of things. She can no longer gain power over her family by virtue of her shocking lack of morals and caring.
By the way- did I sense a question as to whether the golden sister is the product of NM's illicit assignations? It does seem to make a kind of sense. I think that you might identify somewhat with your long-suffering father- but you my dear will not stand for your computer, your home, or your heart to be sullied by this woman's sickness and obvious hostility any longer!
Sending Much Love and Support Your Way,
Changing
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Hi Beth,
Suppose your mom was working at a bank and was embezzling money and someone found out...they'd call in the auditors, right?
Sorry you have to endure this ugly insult.
tt
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Gratitude,
Not to worry - people who get themselves into messes like your mom tend to expose themselves eventually.
Don't muddy yourself with her dirt.
Dandylife