Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lupita on September 03, 2007, 09:40:29 AM
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Need advice about dating. Not the superficial, we know no sex soon, do not speculate about he future, etc, but deeper. Digging deeper. Dating releases a lot of endorfines but also can put you down down to lower your self esteem very badly.
I do not know how to behave. Fortunately my friend likes to dance, but dancing is not enough. I hope I am not boring him.
So, that BS of be your self is that, BS. You cannot be your self on a date. That is very difficult. You are your self after time, not at the beginning. But how to survive that beginning. And if not surviving, how to keep your dignity and keep the person as a friend with out the ulgy feeling after dating failure.
How am I going to see my friend in dancing class after ..... you know what... if that happens.
He mentions constantly that he does not know where he is going to be next year. I do not know either, but I do not tell him. I do not tell him that I do not know where I am going to be next year. Why is he telling me.
Please, please, talk about your dates, dear friends, tell me how to talk about interesting things. Tell me about your successes and falures.
My love to you.
Lpita
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Lupita...
talk about what you're DOING in your life.
Men love to be near busy women, no matter what you're busy with.
If you seem very busy, then they assume, rightly so.... that they are competing for your time.
They love to WIN.
They love to HUNT.
IT's in their genetic makeup.
That said, you don't have to talk about anything in particular to BE YOU.
You can choose ahead of time what you are comfortable discussing, or not.
Make a list of do's and dont's so you aren't struggling or unsure during the date.
Be confident.
I assure you, you aren't boring and if he finds you that way..... then he probably has some awful Playboy air headed bunny version a woman should fit that you wouldn't find very interesting in him either.
Don't worry about his finding YOU boring.
Worry about whether you're enjoying time with him.
IS HE BORING or INTERESTING TO YOU?
You can't change who you are and if things start going well you don't want to have to ACT like someone you THINK he enjoys being with.
Just be you means..... you are authenticly you when you're with him.
It does not mean you tell him everything you're thinking or feeling all the time.
What you do choose to share, and you do choose that all the time for yourself... keep that in mind....
what you choose to share you make sure he understands.
Choose your words carefully so he hears what you want him to hear.
Now.... what would your list look like if you were to choose things to discuss comfortably with him?
Your education?
Your love of dancing?
What movies you adore and why?
The beach and funny things you notice there?
The book club you plan to join or have found?
The books you enjoy?
You don't have to talk about how you might feel about him or relationships in the future, or now for that matter.
You're going out and enjoying food and dancing and company.
That's all.
You're busy with your life and job and outside interests.
You're not obligated to talk about, do, listen to anything that you don't want to.
Use humor and be confident my dear.
::whispering::
Men love busy confident women and it's good practice.
Once you're sure about what to talk about and what not to..... then you can relax and easily handle the conversation, keep it light and laugh more easily. Relax. You're a very special person and he's no more special than you, of that I'm sure.
Worry about whether you're entertained by him and see what happens?
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Dear Lupita,
From my brief experience in dating, men in their 50's seemed to be most concerned with ensuring that I would fit right into their already well established routines. I'd be most interested in finding out how flexible he is. If he's stuck in a rut, I don't want to join him there.
Personally, I wouldn't want to encourage someone to feel that he had to compete for my time and energies, because I'd be concerned what he'd think should be his "prize" if he "wins"... and vice versa. Competition is a risky business, in my opinion. The time and companionship you give to someone, even on a date, is your gift to him, as you share some of yourself to whatever degree you feel comfortable. Looking at it that way, as a gift, then you aren't anxious about what you get back... so if are blessed by your time together, then that is a gift to you, too.
Other than that, everything else Lighter said makes good sense to me :)
Love,
Hope
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So, why is he constantly saying that he does not know where will he be next year? I do not know either. But I o ot tell him. It sounds like he wants to red flag me. Or he only wants to feel free of any guilt. Who knows and I am going to stop thinking about it. I guess detachment is what I need.
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So, why is he constantly saying that he does not know where will he be next year? I do not know either. But I o ot tell him. It sounds like he wants to red flag me. Or he only wants to feel free of any guilt. Who knows and I am going to stop thinking about it. I guess detachment is what I need.
Lupita, I asked my husband what that means and he says that this man wants to make sure you know he's not interested in any kind of commitment with you.
And like you said, that way he's absolved of any guilt.
Love,
Hope
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You cannot be your self on a date.
Please don't believe that. If you are with someone who is right for you then you can be yourself at all times. If you are with someone who isn't right for you then it doesn't matter who you act like, there will never be anything there.
Real love and commitment fall into place naturally, they are never forced or fooled for very long.
mud
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Here I go with my stupid question. I think I know the answer. But, anyway, I want to hear it from you. Do you think that a person who does not want any commitment initially, could end up in love?
Of course, everything could happen. But, most likely, .......most likely......what happens?
If he already made up his mind about me, I should respect that and not try to change it, or stupidly try to expect a different outcome. Still, I want to hear it from you, CH, or anybody else who wants to help.
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There are certain unwritten rules in dating( and in all relationships-- I guess).
Men love the chase. The man wants to feel like he is getting something really special. You have to feel(or fake it) that you are very,very special.
He is giving you read flags about not knowing what he will be doing next year(IMO). However, those 'flags" can be changed if he feels like you are "worth it" to him'.
You have to be 'more" important to yourself THAN he is to you.Your internal worth has to be shining out from you. Your love and value of yourself is your most attractive asset(IMO) Ami
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Here I go with my stupid question. I think I know the answer. But, anyway, I want to hear it from you. Do you think that a person who does not want any commitment initially, could end up in love?
Of course, everything could happen. But, most likely, .......most likely......what happens?
If he already made up his mind about me, I should respect that and not try to change it, or stupidly try to expect a different outcome. Still, I want to hear it from you, CH, or anybody else who wants to help.
Dear Lupita,
I think alot of things could happen, but there is a most likely scenario here. To me, the most likely scenario is that a man who makes such an announcement on the first date is letting you know that even if you engage in sexual intimacy with him, he won't feel any need to "be there" for you in future.
Whether or not you'd choose to take this guy on as a challenge, for instance, would be entirely up to you, but the question I'd ask myself is... why would I want to?
Lupita, it may not be that he's made up his mind about you. It may simply be that you (or any woman) will not be allowed to be a part of his own goal-setting, vision for the future.
To me, engaging with him and aiming for more intimacy would be like trying to mold him into my own image of who he should be... yuck.
I'd take it at face value, Lupita, and really consider... do you want to spend time with someone who has no defined goals for his own future?
Maybe better to look at this dating adventures as opportunities for you to better define your own goals, instead of putting so much focus on what's going on in the minds of your dating partners.
Love,
Hope
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I asked my son. He said he dates several girls. One of them, according to him, is a dumb a*s. He said he still dates her because she is gorgeous. Anotherone, he dates, he says, she is disoriented, but he still dates her because he has a lot of fun to be with. He also says, that he loves them in different ways and that he would help them if it was needed and he would never do anything to hurt them. He said, that two consenting adults can have fun. He said that I can have fun with this guy, this is the fifth date, including two months of dancing together and flirting in dance class. I am not trying to make excuses for my probably self damaging behavior, but, I want to know your opinion. It seems that I do not want to listen. I just wanted to check if my son is right, that I can have fun after so many years of depression and loneliness. I can have fun and no matter if he stays or he goes, taking in to account that I have to prevent my self from falling in love or have especttations or construct a fantasy, or believe something inexistent.
Can I have fun with detachmetn? Am I wasting my time? Should I instead use my energy to pursue other things? There are other guys in dance class who would be glad to go out with me. But I do not like them as much. I do not have to go out with guys. I can just go dancing with my classmates and have fun, but I am a human being.
Dont know what to do. As usual, do not know what to do. It has been my problem forever.
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Everybody made a good point. Every single post from one to 10 have a good point. It is just, my question. Can I have fun? I am not asking for permission. I am asking, am I capable to have fun with out being hurt?
You would say, if you do not want to be kicked you should not play succer. if you do not want to be pull down to the floor do not play american foot ball. Everything has its risks. Here, I know, CB has a great point. She knows and I know, no commitment. CB says she wants to have fun. Probably because she was married ofr many many many years. I have been alone for 17 yeasr already and was married for eight. So, I was thinking that it ouwld be OK to clean some spider webs. But, Can I? Am I prepared for the outcome? Should I get out of the game bc of fear to fall? Because I am sure that I am going to fall. I know he will leave. I know he does not want commitments. So, can I have fun? Can I detach enough to be able to see him with other ladies? Probably not. Still, can I have fun? Probably the the damage outcomes the benefits. The little fun is going to cause pain, unless I am strong anough to be dancing with other guys and laghing when he is dancing with other ladies.
But it is amazing to know that CB is in the same boat. I understand you CB, you suffered your husband for many years. I was allergic to men almost about two months ago in wich suddenly I started feeling like a high school kid again. What a wonderful sensation!!! Can I keep feeling it? Can I play please?
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He is going on a trip for one week, He said I would see him again in one or two weeks. That will give me some time to think. I will go out this Saturday, if possible, (God's will) and try ti visit more with my other classmates in the dance class.
But this guy makes me crazy. He has the eyes that I like, the height that I like, he speaks Spanish, he lived two years in a Latin country, so he knows Latin culture, he is very respectful, he has a college degree, he speaks very intelligently, he dances wonderfully. He is handsome and attractive. He is exactly like my husband was. Flirts all over the place. Charming.
I know that things with my husband went bad. Very bad. So, what am I thinking?
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is my IMAGO!!!!!!!!!!!!! LIFE TRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alarm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Somebody help me.
I need to get him out of my mind. Why do I have to always be in trouble!!!!! Why!!!!!!!!!
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But, I do not want to leave him, not yet. I want to have fun, I want to enjoy his company. Can I afford to pay the price to have fun. It is like going to Disney, I know I will anjoy it, but can I afford it? NO!!! So I do not go. I would love to go to Tahiti. Burt, can I afford it? NO. So, I don't go.
Can I afford to have fun and enjoy this guy's temporary, that I know is temporary, company, that I so much enjoy and like?
What is wrong with me?
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First guy in many years, and it had to be an SOB!!! Why?????? I guess I know!! Those are the ones that excite me. Imago. Life traps.
Why do I want to touch the fire if I know that I am going to be burned? Obsessed?
Can I call it obsession after 17 years? I guess like alcoholism, if you get in touch with alcohol you start drinking again.
Somebody help me here.
See? Bessee? I told you that your thread helped me. Now I know. But, I cant solve the problam. Still feel the same stupid desires. Despite to know the origin.
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Your dilemma reminds of an A.A. friend.He said,"How do you know if someone is "SICK'? The answer-- if you are attracted to them.
I am GLAD that I am not dating. (- I think that Tony Soprano is very attractive).
I don't trust my "picker" and I am NOT much help.
Seriously, my assessment IS that this guy is like your ex-husband.-- Just a gut feeling. I could be wrong.
Ami
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Ami, you are right, I just said it in the post before yours. He is exactly like my husband. Just like that. Soooooooooooo charming. Sooooooooooooo attractive!!! Soooooooooo sweet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!!!!!!!!!!
I am trapped.
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I stayed away from men for 17 years. I start again, falling in the same f*****ing trap. Same kind of guy. Those are the only ons that I feel attracted to. I do not feel anything with any other kind of guys.
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I want a hard catch because I think I believe I am trying to over come the sensation of failure of never getting my mother and my father to love me. Both of them abused me. So I guess I feel attracted to being rejected to see I can conquer it. I did with my husband. He finally married me, and we stayed married for 15 years although eight years together and separated the other seven. But he married me, so I conquered him. But once married, it was a nightmare.
I do not want to marry this guy. Not at all. Just to have fun with him, but with out suffering. Can I do that? am I capable to detach? To not expect anything? To enjoy the moment with out expectations?
Maybe, it is not the conquering thing, just the imago, the my father similarity, the my mother rejection, the I do not know what, but these are the guys that make me salivate, go crazy.
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Besee,
What attracts me to Tony is that he has the whole range of emotions. You can see all the struggles of being human on his face. Also, he has the quality that woman love--- tough--- but childlike and gentle---
I am GLAD that I am not looking for a guy.(lol)
Lupita-- to answer your question that you have asked a few times in your posts-- Can you play with fire and NOT GET BURNED-------NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Love Ami
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(((((((((Lupita))))))))) Just wanted to wish you well in arranging your priorities. As long as you know that the choice is yours, every step of the way, you will be well prepared.
I do wonder about some of the things that Besee asked. I mean, a man can be charming and sweet, and even a flirt, and not necessarily be a philandering cheat, so it's good to consider the facts and not so much imagination.
And Lupita... I hope that you'll consider well with any relationship, how your own feelings develop along with increased intimacy... both emotional and physical. If you try to play at the edges of these flames and just have fun, what parts of yourself will you have to deny? Is it worth it?
Love,
Hope
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Lupita....
You CAN have fun with him. You can go out and do ANYTHING you want without feeling badly about it. Iif you want to sleep with him, just know he's not asking for marriage, at least not any time soon and that it's just fun for now.
Also remember, making out like teenagers is about more fun than anything else so make it last if you want to go there.
If I were in your shoes, I'd date some men that weren't so intricately involved in the fabric of my life. If this thing were to go South, and I'm not saying it will, I'm just sayin..... IF it doesn't go well, and more importantly..... IF it goes badly..... you don't want your entire social life in dance class to be messed up.
I'd continue to see this man.
I'd also go out and find other men that weren't so wrapped up in my personal life that things could get screwed up.
Who knows...... when it rains it pours. You might find yourself with 2 or 3 more people asking for your Saturday night out dancing.
That's a very good thing; )
Enjoy. Have fun by all means. You can have fun and not get seriouse just as easily as a man. People don't like to see women that way but..... it's the truth.
You're an adult and you certainly can have the right to make choices, whatever they are, and enjoy your life.
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All the boyfriends that I had in my life were exactly the same kind. Same personality, same everything. Including my husband, 17 years of nothing and now I had several men flirting with me in dance class, and I get exited with the only one that is that particular style.
I have read all your posts, every single one. All of you are right. If you play with fire, yes, you get burned. Why not to take a different street. have fun and be an adult, knowing that I cannot expect anything. Find out if he is a good person other than a womanizer. Have fun as an adult that I am. That intimacy increases emotional expectations, no matter what.
I still do not know what to do. Dating, dating. Please, dear friends, tell me about your dating experiences. Also, I will keep meditating and reading every single thing you write in this matter.
And, yes, he is very nice with me. Sweet as it could be. I melt. I am in danger to have a horrible hang over, over this guy, whenever he decides to run away. If he feels trapped, he will run away. I think that is his coping mechanism. He must feel safe that way. Probably he projects his mother into any woman and tries to keep her distant.............wow.............CB had that problem with her husband. OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CB where are you? Can you remember posting about your husband making provoking you so you become like his mother? But you always had a good time with him, do you rememebr?
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Lupita, hon,
Forgive me for wanting to be a complete wet blanket.
I think the answer to your short-term question is NO, you can't, not with him.
I think the answer to the long-term life question is, Can I have serenity first, and then fun?
I think until you achieve peace inside, and a sense of stability (when you're no longer anguished, saying What is wrong with me?)...then you can have fun with less danger.
Right now, this man who reminds you so much of all the bad choices before...is a danger sign, imo. He does sound like a poster-boy for an ambivalent uncommitted man who is enjoying your beauty and company and will NOT change. He may be perfectly nice, but he is perfectly uninterested in a serious relationship. He has told you. I know one of the biggest revelations in my life was that it would be a mark of sanity for me to listen to what people (especially men) say to me about themselves, and believe them.
Imagine not just how it would feel to become fused and obsessed and ready at every moment for heartbreak (you have already begun to obsess on why he does what he does, how he may be thinking, etc.)...notice this! (Notice your own signals! Respect them!) and...instead:
imagine how it would feel to look at this flirtation and the how many toxic feelings it's sparking and say to yourself:
my serenity and hope are too important to me to throw at the heels of a man who does not want a true relationship.
Period.
I think you are not able to have meaningless fun. You are still in danger of confusing adrenalin and sex with love. I think you know you will risk all your happiness on someone else's reaction to you. I do NOT think you are going to be this way permanently, Lupita! But as you continue to dig in and do such important work on your sense of self...you can still take joy in life. You can still dance up a storm!
But a gorgeous commitmentphobe? Have mercy on yourself, Lupita.
Please wait until you are ready, and wait for someone who wants to share his life...not just his body.
with love,
Hops
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Hops
You said that so well.What hit me was that a gorgeous guy is a great distraction from pain.When it goes sour, then you have your ORIGINAL pain plus more.
Hops, you are a good friend b/c it is a risk to be real . Ami
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How are you doing, Lupita? You okay?
Love
CB
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Lupita: I wish I could bestow a potion on you where by you could enjoy the bad boys without becoming attached to them.
I wish I could show you how to enjoy those high high highs of fatal attraction then laugh about it as you turned away and felt no loss when it was over.
I can't.
The best I can offer is to tell you that you pretty well guage how unhealthy a man is for you by the size of the grin he plasters on your face. This has been MY personal experience in dating. Take what you want and leave the rest.
At some point....... you may feel strong enough to say.... 'OK, this is a bad boy and good for BOYTOY status, nothing more" then enjoy him till he's absolutely a pill because he wants all your attention and time and a full comittement, lol. they're so predictable. ::shaking head:: When women keep their distance and use them back the way they're used to using otherw people.
If you say yes to spending time with nice men, it may be boring at first but.... you soon realize you got used to being treated well. You miss it when it's gone. Sure... the highs are so high but.... there's also no corresponding LOWS either! WHOO HOO!
I personally don't have any problem with you bouncing dance boy around, for your own pleasure, just as he would enjoy his pleasures with you.
But I'm afraid you'd take it personally and lose sight of the fact you entered this just for fun.
Very hard to stay focused and I still have a problem with messing up your dance thing if it really affects your ability to continue enjoying it.
Hope this makes sense.... .trying to post and catch up with just a little bit of time :shock:
First guy in many years, and it had to be an SOB!!! Why?????? I guess I know!! Those are the ones that excite me. Imago. Life traps.
Why do I want to touch the fire if I know that I am going to be burned? Obsessed?
Can I call it obsession after 17 years? I guess like alcoholism, if you get in touch with alcohol you start drinking again.
Somebody help me here.
See? Bessee? I told you that your thread helped me. Now I know. But, I cant solve the problam. Still feel the same stupid desires. Despite to know the origin.
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Thank you so much so much for all your advises. You opinions are welcome and very much appreciated. Thank you again for you concerns. You made me feel nice, very nice, there are some people who care.
About dance bad boy, after reading all your posts, and trying to internalize it, I feel different this morning. I did not miss him. I saw him as so predictable, and so boring. After the dance and the sex, (if I decide to go there) there will be nothing. Nothing. He does not like classical music, he does not like the beach. He does not even know that I do not want commitments either. He takes me for grantes. He assumes that I am looking for somebody to take care of me. He deos not know that I am trying to learn to take care of my self and the last thing I want in this worls is somebody to take care of me.
I have more clubs than I can handle. I will find another date inthe blink of an eye. But he does not know that. He is too self centered to know that. It is going to be fun to teach him who I am. It is going to be fun to parade in front of him with different dance partners. And to show how much better thsn him I dance. He still thinks that he dances better than me and that he is teaching me. I do not want to show him how much better than him I dance, he might not take me out after that. But I have to teach him a lesson. Fortunately he is going on a trip for a week. So, I will go out with different people. I feel different when he comes back next week.
I am listening my CD of affirmations. That helps. I put a lot of make up, dress very nicely, and losing more weight. So, God will help me to handle him. I am going to tell him that he has to keep his mouth shut about us in dance class. That is going to be our basic agreement. If he brakes it, I will ignore him forever. He is not used to be ignored.
What do you think dear friends? Am I thinking clearly? Do I sound stronger? Please, keep writing to me. It is like having personal friends to talk to. It is wonderful to have you.
Thank you.
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Lupita,
It sounds to me like you dont really like him very much after all. It sounds like he is already pretty irritating! So, don't worry about going out with him. If you arent having fun, what's the point? Life's too short to have a relationship with someone just to show them how stupid they are.
Just go back to dance class and have fun like you were before. Just chalk this one up to experience.
Love
CB
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::gulp:: If he even knoooooowwwwwsss any other guys in that dance class..... he's prolly gonna have to talk about going out with you, and some of what that entails.
If that bothers you, then you may want to skip doing more than dancing with him.
It really ticks me off that women are supposed to feel shame over sexual encounters and men get to feel like conquering cats that ate the canary :shock:
Not fair and I suppose I've spent a good deal of my life reversing this dynamic..... and all for what?
Lupita.... it's a moral imperative that you dance and make merry while you can. I want you to do whatever you want to do..... without caring what this sick twisted society has to say about it. DANCE!
Then, if you really don't care that it turns into something more serious.....
::whispering:: Tell that bad boy you really aren't interested in anything seriouse with him..... but you don't want him to get hurt, so you're telling him up front.
Heh..... then see what he does, lol.
That's about how I ended up with BOTH my husbands :shock:
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I wanted to say what Authentic said but I have had enough controversy for one day--lol.
When I read your post,Lupita, what hit me was "What you sow ,you reap." You( or I) would not want to be reaping any of that. Ami
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As long as you fire a warning shot Lupita, you've given that little boy all the information he needs to protect himself.
It's not your job to protect all of man kind and their emotions, is it?
Listen to your intuitions, you probably already know all you need to know right now about how you feel about this guy.
Remember, when you aren't saying yes to unworthy things and people.... you'll have time for truly worthwhile things when they come along... and making out like teenagers is more fun that any other part of a relationship as far as I'm concerned.
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Wether I like your opinions or not, I still thank you very much for taking the time to write me and think of me. Thank you so much. God bless you.
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Still, I would love to read or if somebody can tell me, what are those unwritten rules of dating. Please. Thank you, so much.
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I would get the book "The Rules".I can't remember who wrote it. It reminded me of the wisdom that my grandmother( not the drug dealer) told me. My grandmother taught me about life in an "old fashioned way". She taught me about respecting yourself. She taught me about having values and being a "lady"( her favorite phrase)
I have been saved from so much trouble b/c I tried to be a lady. My grandmother would have approved of this book. That to me, is the highest recommendation. Ami
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Lupita
It sounds strange to me that a guy would say that he did not know where he would be next year if he was just a commitment phobe. The only reason I can think of why a guy would say that right at the start, is that he has been involved with someone and it is not quite over with. And he is basically honest by telling you that he may not be available long term but at the moment he does not know.
Best to ask him why he said what he did I think instead of wondering.
If he was just looking for sex I think that he would have made it obvious.
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Just go dance, Lupita.
This is your time and you've earned moments of pleasure and joy and adventure.
Know you're worthy and worry about whether you're having a good time, whether you like a man, whether you think you'd be happy on another date with this person.
And dance, lol....
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Thank you everybody for your answers and advises. Thank you CB for the suggestions. God bless you. I will read the book an tell you if I liked it. Thank you. He is on a trip. I will be thinking and meditating about that. I feel kind of distant right now. I do not know if when I see him and he starts with his charming he will enchant me again. But if it was at this right moment, I would not go out with him. Yesterday, I could have gone to dance practice at the dance school, and dance with him. Instead, I went to the beach with my fitness club to play dodge ball and do a beach walk. Felt great.
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::sigh::
Lupita.... I really think you're gonna be ok if you can just remember to prioritize yourself over everything else in your life.
Even if you don't really feel like it.... remember that day at the beach...... and do it: )