Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: axa on September 05, 2007, 02:04:31 AM
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REading a post by Lighter replying to CB re dating prompted this post.
I have no idea how to be light. I am so dammed intense it annoys me. I seem unable to not reveal all about myself to others. I know it is tied up with not being seen and not feeling good enough but its like my mouth runs away with me.
I also know it is connected in some way with trying to form some type of intimacy in an inappropriate way. Its a bit like "look at me, no secrets, so honest, will tell all because I am so honest"...... but the subtext is different. It is me trying to be the "good girl" again, like I would never be underhand. Again something about extremes. It feels a bit like I am trying to get away from my shadow side, same old theme, wanting to be the best girl and prove Mother and Father wrong.
I wonder is it connected with the fact that others opinions of me is so important....... something I deny all the time. I guess it must be otherwise why am I trying to impress. Its looking to the external AGAIN rather than knowing my own truth. I don't think there is anything wrong with external validation but it seems that it is so much more important to me than I ever knew. I need my "goodness" reflected from the outside so that I can know it.
On the issue of intimacy, it is as if I am screaming for it NOW rather than let it develop in a healthy way. How does one pace oneself? I have rarely experienced healthy intimacy, lots of fake stuff though on my part and those of others I have interacted with. Feel like the baby who wants to have her needs met NOW, delayed gratification seems to be something I cannot cope with.
Does this seem familiar to anyone
Axa
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Dear Axa, Yes, thats something I can relate to. I do think that as a general principle, intimacy and `getting to know someone on a deeper level ' does require a certain amount of self-disclosure at some point, so I don't think you're on the wrong track with that.
Perhaps what's going on is your `Depth' is scaring off the shallower type of people, or making them uncomfortable?. Please don't worry Axa; there is nothing wrong with being deep. Its just a bit harder to meet other deep people, but its worth the wait.
love to you
X Bella
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Axa:
I'm an INFP.
I can't stand it when my inside doesn't match my outside.
Authenticity is a must for my comfort.
I have, however, figured out that eveyone doesn't need to know everything I'm thinking about all the time.
I have a right and a duty to preserve and protect myself. I also have a right to get out in the world and experience it, have fun.
If I don't ensure worthy people are receiving my time and attention, then who will?
Just handing intimacy and our selves, emotionally or otherwise, isn't something good girls do. I sort of picture it as the belly up position.....
"don't hurt me, I'm trusting you"
It certainly makes it easier and more comfortable for the man when we do that. Handing them all the power and they don't have to be worthy or accountable?
I guess most women are wired to make things go more smoothly, make everything OK, make everything all right.
I certainly was.
It didn't help me stay out of trouble though I will tell you, had I followed.... really really followed all my rules, it would have saved me plenty of trouble: /
This rule is very important, when it comes to dating.
DO NOT MAKE THE FIRST EXCUSE FOR SOMEONE.
IF you feel compelled to do so, tell them right up front that you won't tolerate that behavior again and if they want to continue seeing you, they won't do it.
IF THEY DO IT.... leave them without another word and never look back.
Trying to fix broken things isn't the same as trying to make good things better.
I also knew, instincutally, that both my husbands weren't people I wanted to spend any quality time with.
I knew.
I can't tell you how much adrenaline it shoots into my feet when I picture what must have went through their minds when they decided I would be theirs..... esp husband number 1. I think his theme was...... "That bitch must pay."
Lovely ceremony..... terrific dinner. Downhill from there and I KNEW BETTER! Who am I kidding, he began torturing me after we became engaged and I didn't trust myself enough to finger him as a nutjob. He said it was me, after all... and I knew I could fix that, right?
Trust yourself.
You are worthy.
That much we know; )
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Axa,
I am hearing you! I could be a mirror image of you on this point. I am really interested in this topic. Thank you for bringing it up. Gotta go! Duty is calling! I will catch up and perhaps comments later.
Poppy
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[I think the anxious feeling is the betrayal of yourself. Deep inside, you seem to know what it is your doing and the answer is dying to come up -- hence the replay of that feeling and interaction over and over and over again
Dear Axa,
I wish I could send you thr book,"Inner Bonding". It answers your question, I think.
I agree with Authentic( above).
Somehow,being "too real" is giving our power away. We are sooo desperate for love b/c we are too empty inside. hence, relationships get SCREEEEEWED up badly.
i am going to share an incident when I was doing it "right". I had this incident occur about a year ,ago.
I had spent the day with Maria. She is the MOST God centered person that I have EVER met. She "knows" God in a real way --not a phony "holier than thou "way. Maria "shines" (often) the way that Joel Osteen shines,if you know Him. She radiates "God".
Anyway,it rubbed off on me.. My H invited one of his partners over . I had never met him before. I was just "shining" with a peace and joy radiating from me. I did not talk to much,but the guy kept staring at me b/c he could see "love" . That was my "core" as God's child. It was so effortless for me. I was a vessel for God to "shine "through. I have thought about this. Wouldn't it be WONDERFUL to live this freely and effortlessly.?
This might not really relate to the topic. I know what you mean,Axa. I just thought that I would share what I think is the "ideal" Love Ami
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ami,
Sounds to me, in the incident that you describe, you were being yourself and not looking for anything. I wonder am I always looking and not being.
SS
My experience is that I am often attracted to people who are very damaged and drama addicts..... a reflection of myself, I wonder. I have a desire to be around more whole people. I also find that the majority of people are not particularily interested in what I have to say, they are more concerned about getting their 2 cents in.
THe more I live the more open I am about my shadow side. I find this is often met with denial. I think there is some sort of collusion out there about not acknowledging that we all have shadow sides, which in turn means that we buy into the concept of the "all good" and idealise others, which of course can only lead to disappointment. I know that when XN met me he thought I was such a good person, sometimes I am and sometimes I am not. He thirsted after my perceived goodness and wanted part of it and by association he then became the all good person. Needless to say when one is on the pedestal the only place to fall from it is down.
I think having the awareness to cut someone off when you realise the are an N is where I want to be. I do not trust that part of me as yet and that is what scares me. Will I fall for the crap again, been there a few times and still got hooked in AGAIN.
Authentic,
Agree with my core desperation to want relationships. Also I think the boundary issue is something I struggle with. WAnting others approval is rooted in my own invisibility. I guess it goes back to needing to SEE and HEAR myself. Making my needs a priority seems like so far away from where I am. I can do it if I am not in a relationship but give it all away in exchange for a few crumbs.
Interesting how easily I trust those who are not trustworthy. Truthfully, I cannot even imagine what it would be like to get my needs met in a relationship. Your word "impress" jumped off the screen at me. This is a big issue the need to impress others........ much to think about here.
THank you so much for your imput.
Lighter
"don't hurt me I am trusting you" YES YES YES this has always been my position. Handing over responsiblity for my well being to another, abandoning myself. THere is a script in all of my relationships and that is abandonment. It is as if the other abandons me, so they act out my abandonment of myself and of course then I become the victim and blame them. I behave as if I am powerless, complete abducation of my responsiblity. The little child saying to the world, you know what is best for me. I will deny my own experience and knowing.
DO NOT MAKE THE FIRST EXCUSE FOR SOMEONE I want this imprinted in my heart. I always make excuses, water down my expectations of how I should be treated. WOW
AXA
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CB
Axa,
I would really like to talk through this with you. I think that this is really important. If we feel voiceless (and I still do), why do we say so much?
AH THE BIG QUESTION.
How did you relate this back to the "good girl syndrome"? I have never thought that was the dynamic going on in a dating situation, although it does in a lot of other areas (for me). Can you talk about how you connected these dots?
I THINK IT IS SOMETHING ABOUT "LOOK AT ME I AM NOT HIDING ANYTHING, I AM SO HONEST, DAMAGED AND I WILL NOT PRETEND TO BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT I AM. HERE IS THE BAD ME AM I NOT BEING A GOOD GIRL FOR TELLING YOU ALL OF THIS. NOW WE CAN GET DOWN TO THE REAL STUFF WHERE YOU WILL TAKE CARE OF ME AND BE MY PARENT.
Your external validation comment also connected for me. I think I said something about this on my own thread: I felt a lot of anxiety about how drawn I was to the external validation. I tried really hard to pay attention to what was happening and what my emotional response was. And something that struck me was how that external validation made me feel like a moth to the flame. I really did get how we get sucked in by N's--they are so good at baiting their supply and we fall for it hook, line and sinker.
YES, THEY FEED US WITH OUR OWN NEED FOR VALIDATION AND THEY ARE THE EXPERTS. I THINK IT IS CALLED GROOMING.
How much of what you are experiencing is an intricate dance between you and who you are relating to? Is there some kind of feedback that you are getting that is drawing you into this pseudo-intimacy? I felt a lot of that in this last situation. As I watched what was happening, I saw him trying to draw me into pseudo-intimacy. Because I was feeling so wary, I could see his half of what was happening--I could also see what I have always done in the past, which is to be drawn in.
I READ SOMEWHERE THAT WHEN ONE "FALLS IN LOVE" ONE IS GETTING ONES OWN NARCISSISTIC NEEDS MET. WHAT WE ARE EXPERIENCING IS SIMILIAR TO HOW A LOVING MOTHER RESPONDS TO HER BABY..... LOOKING INTO HER EYES, COOING, STROKING, SPEAKING SOFTLY. I THINK WE ARE SO DESPERATE FOR IT THAT WE SURRENDER TO THE STARVING NEED FOR THIS MIRRORING.
BELLA,
I AM LEFT WITH THE QUESTION IS IT DESPERATION RATHER THAN DEPTH.
THANKS FOR THE QUESTIONS I AM LEFT WITH.......... MORE PONDERING.
AXA
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BELLA,
I AM LEFT WITH THE QUESTION IS IT DESPERATION RATHER THAN DEPTH.
THANKS FOR THE QUESTIONS I AM LEFT WITH.......... MORE PONDERING.
AXA
Dear Axa,
Just as a general comment, I think that feelings of `toxic Shame' are the usual consequence of the abuse we have all suffered, and so whenever anything feels uncomfortable or` off' in our relationships (or friendships) with other people , the auto-response is to to beat ourselves up over it, and look for huge problems with ourselves. Toxic shame tends to make us personalize things that aren't our fault.
Therefore, I think its a good idea to at least question yourself whenever you find yourself blaming yourself for other people's reactions to you. Its is very likely that, in the scenario you have described, you are not at fault at all, and that a person's response to you has triggered off your toxic shame. In reality their response may be be to any number of things, not personally related to you.
I think of qualities such as depth, openness, and honesty, as truly beautiful. Its so rare to meet people with these qualities, and when I have, its always been a beautiful moment in my life. And I think you are totally fine, Axa.
X Bella
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Its a bit like "look at me, no secrets, so honest, will tell all because I am so honest"......
Axa,
This jumped out at me because I think I spent my whole life trying to create the image that I imagined people wanted to see in me. I hid things and yet I was honest about most tings. Basically, I was human. But I felt so warper.
Axa, I just think we need to keep learnng to be comfortable in our own skins (too bad we have only one life todo so as it takes time). I wish I were one of those people who was just a natural "this is me. Like it or lump it." Well, then again, that's how N's are, isn't it? So maybe self-examination is a habit of the more evolved.
(((((((((((((((((((((axa))))))))))))))))))))
Love, Beth
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I wish that I could buy ALL my girlfriends on the board Caroline Myss books and tapes. I have almost all her works. However, I could not understand them,in the heart,until now.
I have a set of CD's from Caroline Myss on Self Esteem. My mother had sent them to me as a present 5 years ago.
They are about OWNING our power. That is what I hear you talking about in this thread--- your power. That is what you are saying ,Axa. You don't own and manage your own power well. We are all saying this(IMO). That is why our internal and external lives are not working well.We are not driving our car with the "engine" working well.We are driving our car with the parts hanging off and the muffler dragging on the ground..(IMO)
She said something mind blowing on her second CD. People might get mad at me for saying it b/c "therapy" is a 'hot button "issue. However, she said that people can go to therapy for years and years (20-- 30 -40 years)and yet stay the same .In their head, they have fancy words and jargon,but their deep lack of power remains the same..This has been my experience with my own therapy. My N mother has been in therapy for 38 years. She "looks" as if she is "working" on deep issues. She is self satisfied that she is "growing" .However, she is 'worse" b/c it is a smokescreen for real healing . It helps her AVOID real honesty by APPEARING to be seeking honesty. She says,"I am in therapy-- SEE how HONEST I am." Inside me, I "knew" this. I, actually, got more and more LOST to my own power the more I was in therapy.To me,it turned me backward-- not forward.
Caroline Myss talks about heath as ONLY being possible if you are in touch with your own power. Your self esteem IS your power. You need it.It is not an "option" You need to ask yourself ,in life( at all times),"Am I operating from my self esteem?"If not, you need to keep exercising it as a muscle.For example, if you are in a situation where you need to stand up and you DON"T-- you are selling out you own power. Enough of these and you will be sick-- emotionally and physically.That is HOW we get sick. She knows so much about living life as a whole person. That is what we are looking for-- I think. Ami
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Hi Ami,
I think it means something that you are able to use and enjoy something your mother gave you - that you took it and made it your own. There were (are ? sometimes still ? ) times that even if I would have been wanting something, and she would have given it e it to me, it would be ruined because of my irrational feelings when it comes to her.
Maybe not so irrational, I think so many of my feelings come from past experience. I don't know if this is relevant to you, but I just wanted to comment that after I read about the CD's gift.
cats paw
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Ami,
If you saw what I wrote, and if you want to make any comments, could you please put your reply on your "Shock" thread?
What I wrote was probably detracting from the main topic of this thread- (sorry Axa)- but at least I caught it after the fact.
thanks-
cats paw
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I love this discussion.
I am petrified to start dating again.
I am very good with the small talk. I keep it “light”; come to think of it, my dad used to always say “keep it light”.
Unlike Axa & S&S, I do not reveal my shadow side. I use small talk to “keep it light” not as a means of boundaries, by rather walls: I’m scared to show the real me. I’m afraid of looking vulnerable, so I put up walls (not boundaries) to keep it light. I hate talking about myself and I give very little info about me as my way of protecting myself.
But, I do crave intimacy. I want intimacy without revealing myself, particularly my shadow side.
Part of not revealing myself entails not expressing my needs because I used to think that I would seem vulnerable if I expressed my needs.
Also, my parents’ message to me was that it was selfish to express my needs and that I should just satisfy the other person. Sacrifice myself to please the other.
My parent’s taught me that I shouldn’t have needs because “needs” are selfish and therefore, I should satisfy the man’s needs and ignore my own. Basically, I should be a doormat. But, being a doormat never felt good to me, so, I couldn’t make relationships work.
So, I’m in a bind: I want intimacy, but am/was afraid to express my needs and I feel resentment that my needs are not met.
But, now I see that I must express my needs and that being assertive is being honest. Not expressing needs is being dishonest to myself and the other person. It’s OK and not selfish to say “no” and to express what I want.
Authentic, this really describes me too:
it really took me getting hurt over and over to realize that what I thought was being a "good girl" was really setting my self up to be taken advantaged of and selling myself short, and what I thought was being selfish was really taking good care of myself and making my needs a priority.
Axa, what a great and profound question: “I wonder am I always looking and not being.”
I read that N parents raise us in such a way so that we cannot just “be”. We are always trying to please others (originally trying to please our parents, and of course, we never could please them), but we can’t just “be” ourselves and therefore, we can’t feel accepted in our own skins. Maybe this is why we crave the approval of others: Since we were always trying to please our parents and we never could please (satisfy) them, we try to fill this void in ourselves by trying for the rest of our lives to please others. And, of course, we wind up just being unhappy because we can never please “them” and we can’t please ourselves.
So, maybe we act like “good girls” and crave validation and intimacy with others (and want immediate intimacy) because we were not validated by our parents (& our parents weren’t validated by their parents), so we spend the rest of our lives seeking validation and intimacy, but never getting them until & unless we begin to validate ourselves by asserting our needs.
As I think about all this, I conclude that we cannot achieve healthy intimacy and that we will be victims of out desire for validation unless we first commit to asserting our needs.
Thanks for helping me see this.
Re: the feeling “I’m showing you my vulnerabilities, my shadow, so please don’t hurt me”, I think the problem here is trusting someone with our personal and intimate info before they have proven they can be trusted. I think we are so desperate for intimacy (I want it now!) and validation, that we trust people before they have proven to us that they are trustworthy. Yes, I think this is about our need to be taken care of by our parents.
Before we know whether the other person is trustworthy (and not an N), we feel an immediate intimacy and want their validation, so we disclose our shadow side and then later realize that the person is an N. OOPS!
My N parents raised me to not have boundaries. Until I discoverd NPD, I didn’t know what boundaries were. Now, I understand boundaries, and I love them.
I think the “I’m showing you my vulnerabilities, my shadow, so please don’t hurt me” issue comes down to boundaries: As I’ve read in the Boundary books, we are the gate keepers of our boindaries and we should only open a boundary only after someone has proven that they are trustworthy. And, it takes time to find out if someone is trustworthy, so therefore, we should not rush into intimacy, should not rush into opening a boundary until we know that it’s safe to do so.
CB: why did you (& me) ignore read flags and interpret things contrary to reality? Here’s what I think: our N parents groomed us that way, they groomed us to live in denial and gaslighting. As children, if we saw the truth, we wouldn’t be able to handle it, so we adopted defense mechanisms like denial and as we grew up, we kept using defense mechanisms which prevented us from seeing the truth, prevented us from comprehending the Red Flags. Once we have become aware that we are using defense mechanisms like denial, we can see the truth and then the Red Flags become visible.
Also, due to the denial, we don’t listen to our inner voice and we second guess ourselves and tell ourselves that it’s really not as bad as we think.
CB: you mentioned that you are afraid of being hurt by someone else’s boundaries: good point. Maybe the way to solve this is to talk to the person and honestly and respectfully assert your needs so that you don’t feel voiceless. If the person honestly and respectfully disagrees with you, then you have to decide whether it’s a deal breaker. Hopefully, there can be a compromise and the 2 of you can work it out. But, I think the key here is to assert your needs and be true to yourself. We can't feel happy if we feel like a voiceless, non-assertive, resentful doormat.
Ami: Love the “we’re not driving our own cars” Yes!! We gotta drive our own cars on the road of life.
Great discussion!!
Love, sally
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Sally,
I see you in a Rolls.
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Ami,
You've got me laughing out loud. Highlight of my day, thank you, hun.
I see you in a sleek jag.
vroom vroom.
love,
sally
PS. You are a tower of power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Just handing intimacy and our selves, emotionally or otherwise, isn't something good girls do. I sort of picture it as the belly up position.....
"don't hurt me, I'm trusting you"
Lighter,
This comment really struck me. I think this is what I do. Being vulnerable to show my bad or good side didnt sound like me. But this does.
And it seems so counter-intuitive to use this tactic when I do it when the person is the LEAST trustworthy. Hmm. Makes me think of that common adage: "Insanity is when you do the same thing over and over, expecting different results." As soon as a person goes belly-up (and--pardon the graphic comment--this is a very interesting word picture when you are talking about using your sexuality this way), they signal to the other person that they are powerless. To an N, that has to be like handing them free drugs.
Okay. So what would the more powerful position be? And what kind of person would that attract? And what kind of person would I be, if my automatic response wasn't belly up? (Because I do think that you can change your actions by your thoughts--but equally true is that you can change your thoughts by your actions.)
I really enjoy your way of thinking CB. These are very interesting questions that you've raised; thank you for writing.
I can follow your point about transparency in a relationship feeling like being `belly up'. But I'm not really sure if N's always interpret `transparency' in others as` vulnerability' as such; I think they see it more as a threat in many situations. Being paranoid masters of projective identification, I'm pretty sure an N would see your `transparency' more as a play for power, because it puts a subtle pressure on them to also be transparent (which would undermine their power, which is built on deception). Also, its very likely that they would assume you are holding things back anyway- not truly being transparent- and are only pretending to be transparent so you can `see their cards' too. Such is the paranoia of an N.
For me personally, the best and easiest way to detect and repel and N, is to say `No' to them once or twice, or just not give them the control they want. N's are looking for people they can control. If your `transparency' is the means by which you allow others to control youl, they will be attracted to that, and possibly assume that the have some control over you. However, if you say `no' to their control, no matter how much they know about you, or how intimate you have become to them, the transparency will not matter; they will lose interest fast enough.
Yesterday this guy (I need to come up with a name) was telling me all the ideas he had run through in his head to get me for my birthday. I know he is very well-off, but the kind of things he was naming were things that you dont really get someone that you have only gone out with a few times. Maybe I'm reading him wrong, but I don't think so: I think he was doing what XNH did when he described the perfect romantic relationship. I stayed very in the moment and aware, and I thought to myself: he's just talking. This is never going to happen.
In every other romantic relationship I have ever had, I would have discounted the other cues I was getting and would have believed the words. And I would have been deeply wounded and hurt at the broken promises. And I would have retaliated in some way, and he would have lashed back. And we would have been off to the races.
CB, If this man is N'ish (and i trust your judgment ) , I suspect that the reason he is talking about buying you these expensive gifts (rather than just going out and buying them for you) is he is monitoring your reaction, in terms of the potential payoff for HIM. In any case, I agree that its too early to be baited into sense of obligation to this man. You'd want to be sure about what he wants in return, before agreeing to any unspoken contracts between the two of you.
X bella
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I was listening to more of the Caroline Myss Cd's on self esteem. She says that you
always have to be "willing" to be alone". That was profound to me. I saw that I used to be this way with female friends. When I had my best friends, I knew that I would be fine with them or without them. I loved and enjoyed them ,but their friendship did not define my worth or lack of it .I got to that point with Maria last week. I realized that I had to stand up for myself. She seemed to get more respect for me. That saddened me to see that we have to have our own "power" in all relationships. It is sad. However,it is the way of the world, I guess.
I think that Caroline Myss is saying the same thing with a male - female relationship. Your first job has to be to keep your own self esteem. That brings me to the HUGE guilt over selfishness. We HAVE to be selfish, I think..
Myss is saying that there are certain truths. You can live according to them and be healthy or live outside them and be sick . Love Ami
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CB
Just a quick note......... New Man talking about buying you expensive gift for your birthday. XN wanted to buy me a convertable bmw after I knew him a month. Reality, lucky if I got a boxed gift from the pharmacy and for my 50th nothing........... oh, sorry but I feel a red flag coming on. Another conversation comes to mind. At the suggestion that he did not treat his xwife very well his response was "well I bought her a mercedes..........." another one of those open mouthed stunned moments for me. Don't want to put a damper on things for you CB but be careful you are too precious to me.
Axa
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Besee
You are cute . Ami
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Hi CB and Everyone,
I don't mean to belabor the issue, but I am fascinated as to why we didn't recognize Red Flags.
For me, Dr. Grossman put in very succinctly in http://www.voicelessness.com/intimacy.html:
Dr. Grossman says that children of Ns "dulled the abrasive experience of day to day family life by paying little attention"
To me, this means that, as children, we were trained to pay little attention to reality and therefore, we were trained to not see red flags.
Love,
sally
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Thank you for this thread, Axa.
And Sally, that essay of Dr. Grossman's about intimacy is still teaching me so much...
One of the thing that being a good girl meant to me was... for 15 years married to my childrens' dad, I'd often lie there in a sleeping position which would cause me terrible neck discomfort, or difficulty breathing, and never wake him or re-position myself... thinking that being physically close that way was intimacy... even though it hurt so much.
Also, about not seeing the red flags... I think that being highly sensitive can create a system overload which causes a shutdown... so not only are senses dulled, but literally they blank out.
And I think about how the men in my past relationships have been so pleased with the fact that they didn't have to work so hard to "impress" me and I never nagged. I couldn't even speak up when I was in physical pain... because I couldn't stand to inconvenience someone or risk offending them. Red flags were completely out of my line of non-sight.
Hope
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This conversation has got me thinking...processing rather. Not sure I can verbalize yet. But as I look into my past relationships, I can tell you that most of the time I see the red flags but I let it all go cuz I didn't believe I deserved better. I also did the needing intimacy so very much that I gave away the farm to get it. Talk about immature and needy. Besee, I am afraid I can give you a run for your money. :)
With regards to Dr grossmans comments on intimacy, I don't think I have ever had a successfully intimate relationship. But the profile doesn't fit me. Not quite sure what that makes me. Broken? Birth defect? It really fits my H though. Almost to a T!
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Oh crap.... the reply I wrote and attempted to post last night didn't go through.
It was abouit why we go belly up and vulnerable for those least worthy of our trust, CB.
I think it does have something to do with our eternal FOO struggle....
but also.....
just maybe....
receiving affection and devotion from a nice boy isn't so special?
But receiving it from a bad boy....
is?
Both scenarios make me want to slide down walls contemplating them.
I don't want to spend the rest of my life trying to get daddy to love me :shock:
I want to feel it's special when someone worthy is giving me respect and being kind to me.
I think I've about got it figured out.....
if I can just sustain those boundaries.
::bucking self up to do just that tonight::
Calm..... serenity...
::neck burning... stinging::
Peace....
self care.....
calmly defending boundaries.....
calmly asserting self is what I'm concentrating on.....
no matter what the response is, that's what I'll be doing.
::assuming Karate Kid Crane stance::
IT'S NOT HELLLLLPPPPIIIIIINNNNNGGGG!
::ahem::
WHERE ARE THOSE DAMNED SMELLY CANDLES!?!?
I'M POUR'IN MYSELF A LUXURIOUSE BATH!!!
DAMNIT.
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Question: so many of you have posted that you worried I would be hurt. It's made me think more along the idea that Axa originally posted on this thread: what about the ability to have a light relationship that doesnt get into heavy conversations and self-revelations?
Do you think that it is the degree of self-revelation that determines the degree of hurt? Like you have shared some deep part of yourself and then an N behavior feels like a wound to your inner self?
Perhaps it actually IS a wound to your inner self? Is the wound shame-based?
Does it become compounded when we (as we often do) try to convince the other person that we are wounded?
Can we become impervious to N-wounds by learning to not share deep parts of ourselves with strangers? In other words, are we complicit in our wounding by kind of baring our chest to the plunge of the knife? To continue the metaphor--if we learn to duck will there be an actual wound?
I am curious about the dynamic that Axa has described and it has made me think about it more.
Love
CB
Dear CB, Yes, I think hiding our emotional vulnerabilities can contribute to avoiding N abuse, especially if that is the main way by which we tend to be abused. However, I also think it is possible to be abused by N's via any vulnerability, and it doesn't necessarily have to be related to an emotional wound. For example, you may be vulnerable due to being in love with the N, or being the N's employee, or being in a poor financial situation, or you are struggling because you are a sole parent with too many responsibilities to handle alone......people can be vulnerable in any number of ways.
Also, I have noticed that N's are attracted to strong and powerful people who they envy (and wish to destroy), as much as they are as attracted to vulnerable people who they feel they can control. I feel that they adapt their abuse to suit the person & situation as well as their feelings about them, and they will go so far as to create vulnerabilities by undermining a person's power base, if the person is not otherwise vulnerable.
I really think the best way to avoid N abuse is to avoid closeness with them at all costs. I don't think there is a way to be close to an N, or romantically attached to an N, and to avoid N abuse, unless you are totally prepared to be on alert 24/7 and to fight them using their tactics. To me all that drama and intense focus on a mental ill person is a waste of precious life that could be spent doing something more meaningful, like trying to preserve the forests, or plucking your stray eyebrow hairs.
X Bella
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Wow I have learned so much from this thread. In fact from all of the board. I am so pleased that I have found it again at the moment. I am going through a great learning curve so thanks guys.
This from CB has leapt out
I have hashed and rehashed the pain and the wounds: from mother-wounds, to father-wounds, to sibling-wounds, to lover-wounds, to husband-wounds. I have gone NC, set boundaries, gotten a divorce. I have holed up in my own space and licked my wounds and given myself space to think and grow. I have gotten therapy, talked to 3-D friends, and you all. How do I get rid of the rest of the fear? I don't want to live for the rest of my life as a (I think this is Stormy's term) defensive pessimist.
I have found this happening to myself but it conflicts with my Christian beliefs. And the question for me is, and I am sorry if it will only be of interest to the Christians here, I apologise for that, but where does therapy step over the line as far as Christians are concerned? When does self interest and self preservation become negative? How do we heal and not develop the fear that CB mentions? Where is the balance? I have not been finding it easy to find this balance this time around when reality has kicked in big time.
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CB
But there is a season to everything, and you don't have to have everything together right now.
Yes that is so true. I really believe in the process. I have not just heard about NPD. I have been in recovery for 3 years now, and reading about it but lately, a higher level of awareness has kicked in somehow. It's like I now fully see the extent of the abuse whereas before I was only seeing some of it. Also I have been seeing my dark side this time and am shocked at what I see but that is pride isn't it? We want to see ourselves as victims and good girls, well not so much the victim as we become enlightened or heal from personality disorder. I am shocked by the way that i have abandoned my own children and not been there for them emotionally but then I had abandoned myself after a childhood of abandonment. I don't know whether they are ever going to forgive me. It will be certainly harder to forgive myself.
Yes I do think that you do need to be in a safe place to heal and i am living on my own though have contact with my H who is seriously PD'ed. I think that I have reached a place where I can handle him. I learned to do that with my mother by realising that my needs would never be met by her. The same realisation is happening with my husband and i am starting to feel the same pity but in a detached way, but really facing the reality that what I longed for and tried to get from them is not going to happen.
I know that it feels bad to be suspicious, esp. if you have embraced the belief to "count others as more important than yourself".
Actually no, this is a misunderstanding of Christianity and the Bible does not teach this, bit it is easy to see why it would turn someone against the faith if that is the conclusion. Scripture teaches us to be as wise as serpents and therefore to see others in their true light, which in the case of NPD means dangerous. This is not suspicion but reality, and the questions is how to deal with them? I believe that they are only harmful if our sense of self is distorted and if we are not functioning from a basis of love. Of course a child is less likely to have this basis if it has known nothing else. If we do have it then I think that we will not need to be suspicious towards everyone because we will not be vulnerable and open to having this sense of self damaged and the truth veiled and we will be wise. I have found that having my relationship with my maker restored, puts me right into reality and because perfect love casts out fear and the truth sets us free (and scripture says the truth is Jesus Christ)
In the process of my healing, i believe that God only allowed me to see as much as i could cope with at the time but now i can take a step forward. It is causing me terrific pain at the moment, unbearable but I know that it is necessary. Maybe i will have to accept having a personality disorder myself. I know that God will heal it though.
The scripture teaches us to love others AS we love ourselves ourselves which means that we must first love ourselves and this is what the healing is all about i think. Along with loving ourselves is being switched into reality so that we can see how we have been abused and then how we have abused others. I believe that the process is laid out in the 12 steps program.
The next step in the Biblical way of wholeness, once we love this self and take care of it, is to deny it. To reach this stage requires us to give up all self protection, at least in its very profound levels, and I do not think it either possible or wise to do this if we are still denying the existence of our maker, and not under His protection. We have no choice, we either turn to Him to protect us or we do it ourselves.
I have found that doing it God's way is going to be the only way that i am going to reach wholeness, to the extent that I see the fullness of wholeness possible. There are degrees, but I have had a taste of the fullness and the freedom peace and joy were beyond understanding and life was indeed like rivers of flowing water with the fountain of joy springing up eternally (pictures from scripture about what is attainable in full recovery) I won't be satisfied with anything less and so I must see myself as I really am. And the process can take place quite quickly if we are ready. I feel ready. I want abundant life.
love
Mati
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Wow I have learned so much from this thread. In fact from all of the board. I am so pleased that I have found it again at the moment. I am going through a great learning curve so thanks guys.
This from CB has leapt out
I have hashed and rehashed the pain and the wounds: from mother-wounds, to father-wounds, to sibling-wounds, to lover-wounds, to husband-wounds. I have gone NC, set boundaries, gotten a divorce. I have holed up in my own space and licked my wounds and given myself space to think and grow. I have gotten therapy, talked to 3-D friends, and you all. How do I get rid of the rest of the fear? I don't want to live for the rest of my life as a (I think this is Stormy's term) defensive pessimist.
I have found this happening to myself but it conflicts with my Christian beliefs. And the question for me is, and I am sorry if it will only be of interest to the Christians here, I apologise for that, but where does therapy step over the line as far as Christians are concerned? When does self interest and self preservation become negative? How do we heal and not develop the fear that CB mentions? Where is the balance? I have not been finding it easy to find this balance this time around when reality has kicked in big time.
Dear Mati,
Me, too... and I think that you've addressed this dilemma quite well in your last post.
The balance, I believe, comes with forgiveness, and yet that forgiveness is not a feeling... but a deliberate choice of will, in obedience to the Lord's command.
My belief now is that these wrongs must first be recognized and acknowledged - both the offenses of those who've wounded us and our own offenses toward others - before that forgiveness can be offered and received. Taking all of this mess to the cross is what brings healing, as a believer acknowledges that every bit of it was crucified there. After all, there can't be a rebirth until there's been a death...
and there can't be a denial of self until that self is dug out from the rubble and faced square-on.
I'm easily thrown for a loop, Madi... knocked off my feet and left with head spinning... but one thing I know.
There is only one sure foundation, and that is Jesus Christ... the Rock which shall not be moved :)
And so that's where I draw the line when it comes to this self-exploration - it is crucial to me to not exchange a damaged/invisible self for a new worldly-based self, but rather receive that new life which is only available in Him... that abundant life.
With love,
Hope
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[
What I was expressing in my post comes from years of hashing this stuff out. I didnt have the word NPD in my vocabulary, but I had the concept figured out and I spent the last five years (!) literally hiding from the world because I didnt know how to tackle it. Although I look back and it's hard not to regret all that I missed out on because of it, I can see how that time was valuable and it was time well spent in terms of getting to know myself. I think I could have done it faster, if I had had the support we have here--but I think that the time of being suspicious of everyone was probably necessary.
Dear CB,
Isn't it sad that when I first found the board,I had people wanting to shame me for looking within and trying to heal ? Ami
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My belief now is that these wrongs must first be recognized and acknowledged - both the offenses of those who've wounded us and our own offenses toward others - before that forgiveness can be offered and received. Taking all of this mess to the cross is what brings healing, as a believer acknowledges that every bit of it was crucified there. After all, there can't be a rebirth until there's been a death...
and there can't be a denial of self until that self is dug out from the rubble and faced square-on.
I'm easily thrown for a loop, Madi... knocked off my feet and left with head spinning... but one thing I know.
There is only one sure foundation, and that is Jesus Christ... the Rock which shall not be moved Smile
And so that's where I draw the line when it comes to this self-exploration - it is crucial to me to not exchange a damaged/invisible self for a new worldly-based self, but rather receive that new life which is only available in Him... that abundant life.
Perfectly put hope. And it can't be put to death until it is 'given life' that is until we see it.
Ami, how could you be shamed for looking within and trying to heal? We are told to see ourselves as God sees us so of course we must look within. But we must also depend on Him for healing if we want to do it His way which is the best way.
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Dear Mati,
That post was so profound. I misinterpreted many Biblical things and it kept me a me a victim.I want to say that I think that you have gained much,much wisdom from going through your struggles.
You are an uplifting and inspiring voice, I am so, so glad that you are here, Mati.
I need to "study" your posts more before I comment directly on them Love Ami
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Dear Ami
Thankyou so much for that word of encouragement. I certainly need it at the moment as I am going through some monumental change and feeling fragile but it is good because i see progress like you. I am so pleased at what is happening for you.
I had an awful e-mail from my pastor yesterday, just because I mentioned that I have been thinking of moving and one reason
is that i am not getting fellowship at church and he blamed me for it and said that others have reached out to me and I have not responded! . It is utter rubbish. It really upset me but i have quickly found my bearings and am amazed at this improvement in myself. i am sure that coming here has made the difference.
love
Mati
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Mati,
After months of avoidance, it was just in the past few days that I was able to write to a pastor with whom I'd had some serious differences of perspective. I don't want to take this thread off course with it, but just wanted to say that it's been my experience here on this board, along with Dr. Grossman's essays, Bible study, and prayer which have made all the difference in my own perspective.
If you would like, at some point, to talk about these conflicts with church fellowships and leadership, I would like to participate in that discussion, because it's been a gigantic hurdle for me to address such things directly.
Thanks!
Hope
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I am trying to decide how to complete the healing process in my life. I have hashed and rehashed the pain and the wounds: from mother-wounds, to father-wounds, to sibling-wounds, to lover-wounds, to husband-wounds. I have gone NC, set boundaries, gotten a divorce. I have holed up in my own space and licked my wounds and given myself space to think and grow. I have gotten therapy, talked to 3-D friends, and you all. How do I get rid of the rest of the fear? I don't want to live for the rest of my life as a (I think this is Stormy's term) defensive pessimist.
Oopsie... let me set the record straight on this one, it's an easy enough misinterpretation to make.
Defensive pessimism is not about defensiveness nor is it about being pessimistic. Nor is it about living in fear.
It's also not my term, actually; I have a link to it on one of me bloggies, though, because it is almost my religion :roll:.
It's Professor Julie Norem's term - from her book, "The Positive Power of Negative Thinking". http://www.wellesley.edu/Psychology/Norem/Book/book.html
I often wish she had chosen different terminology precisely because 'defensive pessimism' sounds so... defensive and pessimistic!
What it really is, is simple contingency planning.
You look at a situation, ask yourself, 'now, what's the worst that could happen here? Realistically?'
And then you prepare for that eventuality.
So if you have to travel to give a talk, you put a spare CD of your slides in your carry-on bag [do they still allow those? I haven't flown in a while] so that if your luggage goes missing, your talk doesn't vanish too, at least.
Or if you have to go to work and it's snowing - and you live below the Mason-Dixon Line and only have 1/8 tank of gas left - you take the time to top up the gas tank on your way out of the neighborhood - even if it might make you late - because if the snow gets a lot worse, businesses might close early, it might take you a long time to get home in the evening, and gas stations may not be open.
[The Mason-Dixon Line qualification is necessary because down hyah, ten snowflakes together cause total panic. Up in New England and thereabouts, where [thank God] I learned to drive, the main thing that happens when snow gets worse is that everybody puts their tire chains on. So a defensive pessimist in New Hampshire will make sure she has her tire chains where she can get to them. AND a full tank of gas.]
Then, when your luggage is delayed, or the roads ice over and your half hour commute takes three hours, with or without tire chains, you're not frantically wishing you had anticipated and provided for the situation. You are living free of fear, as a matter of fact.
That's defensive pessimism. Every decent scientist, every good engineer uses it. It used to be called 'thinking ahead'. Me... I call it 'common sense', but I'm biased.
Now, on the other hand, one thing I really, really like about the term 'defensive pessimism' ....
.... is that its natural opposite is 'offensive optimism' !
**Snort** .... just think about what that might look like ....
[really, really icky revolting guys hitting on you in bars, for one. Offensively optimistic for sure! ]
;-)
Storm
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Sorry... couldn't have gone more off topic if I'd used GPS to plot a route.
But I did want to restore the reputation of a fine, fine philosophy: hope for the best while preparing for the worst!
~~~ as you were, troops! ~~~
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~~~ as you were, troops! ~~~
Too funny, Storm.
After I googled the definition of 'defensive pessimism', I saw it was neither defensive, nor pessimistic. Poor choice of title IMO. As Storm said, it's just common sense.
Mati,
Good to hear your voice. You sound like you've done a lot of healing work. I would just say that as long as you have God in your heart, trust your gut and listen to the voice within yourself.
Love,
sally
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The mystery of 'defensive pessimism'.
Well, there's not much mystery in the definition of defensive pessimissom. It is simply inverted optimism.
One can't, or probably wouldn't take the time to plan for every possible contingency in a given situation, but you can plan for the obvious ones and the ones important to reaching your goal. My experience is that usually there will be three or four main or 'most likely', or most important possible contingencies for what I'm trying to dope out.
So lets say the optimistic planner/thinker lists his contingencies, A, B, C, D. A is the absolute best possible outcome. D is the worst. All the planner/thinker has to do is reverse the order, D, C, B, A. to turn it into 'defensive pessimism'. D is the absolute best possible outcome, A is the absolute worst. For all practical purposes as far as I can see, it's a figure of speech.
Well, at least, that's my opinion :wink:
tt
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Thanks for the definition, Storm. I thought it was just a really expressive term that you had made up! What you are describing here has been everyday life for me since I had kids! So I sure get what you're talking about.
Guess I'm going to have to come up with a different word for the fearful defensiveness that I am trying to work on.
Dear CB,
Isn't it sad that when I first found the board,I had people wanting to shame me for looking within and trying to heal ?
Ami,
I'm so sorry that this is hurting you. I can't remember way back to when you came on the board, so I can't remember this incident. But, I do remember my own delight with you and how glad I was that you were here. And I still am. You have your own unique voice and your own deep way of looking at things. The board wouldnt be the same without you!
Love
CB
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Thanks for the validation, Authentic.
CB:
I also suffer from feeling fearful defensiveness. I'm hoping it's a stage that I'm going thru and that I can turn it into courageous joyfulness or brave living.
I've done a bit of of work on feeling fear. I listened to the CD "Feel the Fear and Do It anyway" (forget the author; it's a woman) & it was helpful.
Sometimes fear is justified and it's there to protect us, as in "I'm afraid of this person because I think he is a psychopath, so my fear is telling me to stay away". That's good fear. Don't loose that fear because it could save your life.
The fear that I think you're referring to is the fear that pervades our lives, immobilizes us and causes us to miss opportunities. It's an irrational fear and I have a feeling that this type of fear may be a remnant of PTSD. That's the kind of fear I want to ditch. I have a magnet on my frig which has a photo of Eleanor Roosevelt and this quote: "Do one thing everyday that scares you". When I feel this type of irrational fear, I try to run the idea thru the defensive pessimism checklist, prepare for possible contingencies and then, if it seems OK, I do it.
So, I still feel the fear, but do it anyway, just like the title of the CD.
Is this the type of fear your talking about?
Love,
sally
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We will have to agree to disagree,CB
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Regarding fear and PTSD, have a look at Certain Hope's post called the "Fawn Response" posted today. I basically had a melt down over it. For me, it makes a connection between fear and co-dependence.
Love, sally
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Dear Sally,
I went on that website. He has a lot of profound wisdom. I feel so embarrassed and humiliated with medical things--- sickness etc . He explains why in an easy way to understand. I need to really study it or get the book.Thanks so much, Sally for all your help ( and support) Love Ami
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It's funny how little things that have happened now suddenly are so telling once you have learned a bit about NPD. Until only a couple of years ago, I always took a lot of time in picking out sentimental and meaningful greeting cards (always Hallmark, don't you know!) for my mom on her birthday, Mother's Day, Christmas, her anniversary, you name it. But a couple of years ago, I just couldn't reconcile myself to purchase one of those cards with the meaningful prose about how Mom was "always there for you", was your "best friend" and helped you "become the person you are today". So instead of one of these sentimental cards that I so wished was representative of my relationship with my mom but definitely was not, I selected a fairly generic card with a spiritual message. Well, when my mom opened it, she had this look of disdain on her faith and said something like, "Oh, a religious card." She was not used to that I guess. My severely NPD sister, however, has always and forever given my mom those greeting cards that usually have Snoopy on it where the message inside is always like "I'm your favorite" or "from your favorite child". You know there is meaning behind doing that when that's the only kind of card she ever gives.
Not surprisingly, my NPD mom makes a point of saying she doesn't believe in sending greeting cards because they're so expensive and a "waste of money". So, even though my co-dependent dad who I know genuinely loves her, picks out a lovely and loving card on their anniversary every year, she never, ever reciprocates and barely acknowledges his effort.
Just as with gift giving, I can't ever remember my mom saying a sincere "thank you" unless it was in front of other people. But you just better gush over the gifts she picks out for you (which invariably suit her tastes and not yours). I called her on it once when she was selecting a turtleneck sweater for my sis-in-law who hates turtlenecks and never wears them. She said, "well I like it, and it's my money so I'm going to buy what I want." How NPD of you mother!
So I guess all the little things add up. I can't help but feeling bad, however, at all the mother-daughter things I'll never get. I have a beautiful little niece who is cherished beyond belief by her parents. They take an interest in every aspect of her life. She gets to do all those mom-daughter things I never did. I guess that's part of the grieving.
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We will have to agree to disagree,CB
Ami,
I'm sorry--I don't know what you are talking about here. If you would feel more comfortable PMing me, I am fine with that. I wouldnt have offended you for the world--and if you want to leave it at that, that's fine, too.
Much love
CB
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Hi Ami,
I am forever grateful to Certain Hope for posting that. I think it really changed my life. I also want to study it more.
Your welcome, sweetheart.
Love,
sally
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Dear CB,
It’s so excellent that you went to the shower. You felt your fear, but did it anyway: YAYE!!
I know what you mean about your NH cultivating your fear: a fear which did not previously exist until NH cultivated it. My NM did this to me, I see that now. I agree that it’s PTSD.
Your NH, like my NM, conditioned us, brainwashed us into this fear. So now, we have to re-condition (de-program) ourselves out of this fear. Going to the shower today is the way to de-program yourself. And then, after you have done something in spite of the fear (like going to the shower or on a date), consciously validate yourself and acknowledge that you did something despite the fear and that it was OK; we didn’t crumble or die by doing something which we feared.
Be your own best friend and hold your own hand and walk thru the fear.
I felt I had to overcome my fear or else I’d wind up agoraphobic.
The other thing about our Ns conditioning us to be fearful is that this fear was PROJECTED on us by the Ns: The Ns projected THEIR fear onto us and over the years, we absorbed their fear. They were fearful people, not us, but they conditioned us and we absorbed it. This is the brainwashing and programming that we now need to un-do.
As far as religious beliefs, with all due respect, I feel that you were exposed to dogma that misrepresented God’s love. For me, I went to a very heavy duty religious school, where the teachers conveyed to me that God is ALWAYS watching and if I screwed up, I’d wind up in hell, so I always had to be “good”. Eventually, I found this exhausting and then realized that such an interpretation could not be true: God does not play “gotcha” with us. God is not watching us and waiting for us to screw up, so that he can nail us. How could such a God love us? So, I ditched the dogma and created my own interpretation based on God loving us, understanding us and forgiving our mistakes since we, God’s creations, are only human. Only God is perfect and makes no mistakes. We are not God, we are imperfect and make mistakes.
To get to the place I'm at now, where I can MOSTLY say that mistakes are okay and I will recover if I make one, is a huge deal. Congratulants on this; this IS HUGE.
I feel as though I am getting closer to the place where I am not fearful. Excellent. You see, you’re almost there: You already understand that the fear was conditioned into you.
I came to where I felt that I had no control over my life and eventually was afraid to have control.
I know what you’re saying about this “control”, but I have also read Zen oriented books which say that in reality, we do not have control over our lives and that accepting our lack of control can make us feel freer.
Guess I should distinguish between things we can and can’t control: For example: if I was irresponsible and spent all my money on crack, I will be broke, homeless and sick, so I can control this by being responsible and not doing crack. But, I could be living a responsible, exemplary life and cross the street tomorrow, be hit by a bus and die. So, some things we can control and some things we can’t and there’s a freedom in knowing that and distinguishing between the two. It can relieve us of the burden of feeling the need to “be in control” of eveything all the time. Instead, we can just “be”.
I'm working on being relaxed though, knowing that I will find out. I am right where I am supposed to be and doing just what I'm supposed to be doing. The answers will come. Exactly. When the student is ready, the teacher will come. Live one day at a time and try to enjoy the moment.
Love,
Sally
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CB,
I am really,really angry that I was bullied and shamed when I came on the board-- simply b/c I wanted to heal -in an honest and deep way.
The board is totally different ,now. there are MANY strong voices,as you can see.. No one could be bullied the way that I was without MANY people coming to their rescue.
So, I learned lessons about people's pettiness .All is well that ends well. Ami
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Axa,
What a great thread. I'm glad you posted it. I have problems with this too. You said:
My experience is that I am often attracted to people who are very damaged and drama addicts..... a reflection of myself, I wonder. I have a desire to be around more whole people. I also find that the majority of people are not particularily interested in what I have to say, they are more concerned about getting their 2 cents in.
I do this, and I have the same results. My son's father was a damaged, drama addict, and I wanted to "fix" him. I let myself get into a situation because I didn't know how to get out, and I thought I was helping him. I mistakenly thought he would fix me too.
The problem I've noticed that I have is that I'm too controlled all the time. I was never allowed to have real, authentic feelings, so I don't express them well now. I laugh at jokes, but I don't find them funny. I don't really know how to have fun, because I can't stop thinking about other things. I have a hard time touching and being touched. Giving a hug is hard for me, but at the same time I want that sort of intimacy. I just don't know how to get there.
I want to be able to go somewhere and relax and enjoy myself, instead I'm tense and I can't relax. I don't know how to fix that. I read somewhere about a woman who could be very loving with her pets, but not with other people. That's sort of how I feel. I just don't know how to be intimate with other people, and I hate that.
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Authentic,
I'm just not comfortable touching. I try hard to do it. I try giving myself son hugs, but I don't really like it. he's a very touchy-feely person, and I don't want to be touched.
I don't like for my mom to touch me at all, and if she comes up and gives me an unexpected hug, I about come undone.
The worst of it is, I don't feel anything, other than I don't like the touch. I feel sick, that's all. I'm getting better with my son, but I still find extending touch, like having him leaning against me uncomfortable.
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I'm sorry, Ami. I wouldnt do anything to hurt you on purpose. I can tell from your posts that you are really angry, but I can't tell if you are angry with me or with someone else.
I went back and looked at our interchanges when you first came, and they were very warm--both from me to you and you to me. So, I may be just paranoid now that you are expressing your anger. But please know that you mean the world to me. My offer to PM still stands, or if you want to start a new thread that would be okay too.
I will be off the board for a couple of days probably because I have a really neat opportunity coming up that I want to take advantage of. I can tell you all about it when I get back.
Much love to you, Ami,
CB
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CB
My anger is at you. If you don't get it, I am not willing to explain it anymore.. I tried to explain in several different ways. That is all I am willing to do. If you do not comprehend, then I want to go forward, as you should.
This is as far as I am willing to go. I hope that you can respect that . Ami
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Authentic,
Your above post has disturbed me. I don't wish to cause anymore conflict by adding a word here but I feel like I must say something. I can see that there are some feelings between CB and Ami -- something I am sorry to see. But I don't see how your above post does anybody on this board any good. It seems you have your view of the events but I have looked at CB's comments and they feel genunine to me. I see that you want to defend a friend but what I see happening is unfair labeling and a stirring of more contention. I appreciate that Ami is in pain and in a fragile state at times. But most of us on this board are as well. And I must say that when people are in pain, I think it is easier to become overly sensitive or to see manipulation and harshness in everyone.
With this form of communication, there are bound to be misunderstandings. We can't see each others facial expressions. We don't know each others mode of discourse first hand. We come from different places and cultures. Our ways of conveying information, opinion and feelings could be very different. When I see this kind of labeling, I feel indirectly hurt by it. It contributes, directly to the compomised safety that we should all, IMO, try to preserve in a place like this board. I feel that it is unfortunate that Ami and CB couldn't have handled their differences privately. It sounds like to me that they are both sincere but may not be understanding one another. It seems to me that a forgiving and honest dialogue could produce more good than a public slander. All of my experience with CB has been postitive. I can only say that I see kindness and an effort at peacemaking in her statements. She has offerring to take the conversation to a private setting. Amy choses not to. It sounds like you feel differently about CB's posts which you have every right to. But your outlining of her statments isn't proof of her intensions. It is only your opinion. I guess I wonder what you are trying to achieve. Putting one of us above another in importance? Trying to win support for your position? I see you feel you need to speak. But I think there are higher principles at stake. And I think this board could benefit from less of this kind of communication. Couldn't we handle problems with patience and listening and truly agreeing to disagree in peaceful ways? Why is it so hard to accept someones hand of friendship or hand of peace? It is something that is hard for me to understand. Maybe the pain we have been through has caused us to learn to defend ourselves. But I have a hard time believing that those on this board are here with horrible intentions. I think we are all trying to heal in the best ways we know how. It is clear Ami has chosen her path of healing. Maybe CB understands and maybe she doesn't. I cannot say. But whether or not she does, is an issue between the two. It is none of my business. And I don't like it being made my business. Both individuals are capable. Both have incredible capacity for love. I am confident they can come to terms. And I am sorry that feelings are stirred in this case. I just feel that this added railroading and these fights aired openly on the airways, IMO, hurt the enitre board. At least they hurt my sensibilities of how I feel we should all be respected with our weaknesses and all.
Just my gentle opinion. I send it with peaceful intention and with a desire to keep this board as safe as possible. I am not saying that Ami is right and CB is wrong or vice versa. I am only saying that I feel there are better ways to support a friend -- empathy understanding and peacebuilding comments. That is what I hope for if I mistep or misstate or if someone is misunderstood by me. It seems to me that BOTH of these individuals need support in their own views and in their own situations. Couldn't we, for the sake of the board, pull back and handle these conflicts in a more peaceful fashion? Couldn't we try harder to be long sufferring with each others percieved weakness? Couldn't we forgive each other for having failings? weakness? character flaws? Seems to me, we are all in the human frailty boat together.
--Poppy
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A direct apology to Axa for the highjack. I am sorry. I should have started another thread. Perhaps I even should have PM ed Authentic. My mistake. I am sorry. I will hand it straight back to you and your comments on being the "good girl".
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Hi all.
I remember earlier on the board I was afraid of Certain Hope. Ooo, I did not like her.
I made a few remarks. I was defensive. I snarked. Maybe mildly, but she's no dummy.
I wanted her to go away.
She scared me.
It had nothing to do with Hope at all. It was me, hearing an old voice from my childhood,
ascribing motives and intentions to Hope that had only to do with the eyes with which I was seeing her.
TRUTH? FAIRNESS? It was my beady little pupils.
Hope did go away for a while. :( I thought of her but didn't really want to.
A while back, she came back again. Just politely and gently started participating again.
I AM SO GLAD.
I heard her voice freshly. For some reason, my walls of defensiveness and projection (oh, Certain Hope is too certain for me...and anyone THAT religious is going to judge and skewer Unitarian Universalist me...etc.)...went away. Fell down like the walls of Jericho.
I read her. I heard her. I LIKED HER. I trusted her! I still do. Bam. It's just there. Enmity dissolved, mistrust evaporated. This is a good person and we had a wobbly start and that's one great big So What.
Not only that but she wrote me a tremendously grace-ful (verbally and spiritually) note to smooth the waters.
She stuck out her hand in friendship. I don't think I deserved it. She was walking her walk.
Because of my early wounds from religous training, I had been CHOOSING to look at this dear person in a suspicious and hostile light. After some minor irritation or misunderstanding that I didn't want to let go of. So I didn't "get" her or she didn't "get" me (I can't remember who said what at first, I don't cruise backward.) She not only forgave me but looked right past all that to say something very very kind to me.
That exchange...that change...was for me a microcosm the the very best this board has to offer.
Thank you, ((((((((((((((Hope))))))))))))))))) !
You, honey, put the st in Christian for me.
Poppy, you said it better than I can. But I share with you the hope that most of us will keep knowing,
despite sour episodes, what wonderful people are here and how sincerely they share.
We could spend our gimlet-eyed energy looking for the most negative interpretations and stay ready to pounce, we could nurture grudges until they grow green mold...those are option. Bleak ones, but they're choices.
I vote for renewal, for compassionate interpretation, and for treating people's intentions with respect. The log in one's own eye, and all that.
I believe supporting a vulnerable friend is an honorable and good thing to do.
But what may sound piously loyal can also provide a screen behind which something wounded lashes out quite viciously, all in the name of loyalty.
Ami, I'm sorry you carry a bad bruise. I think I was one person who didn't welcome you well, who didn't respect you knowing for yourself what process, what way of writing and working, was right for you. I am sorry for that. You set me straight and I believed you. And now I just read and appreciate how intensely you are doing what you have to do.
I hope you will let go of your grudge against CB. How can it help you to nurse it? I believe you. You were misunderstood by one member of a board some time back. Do you think you could let it go?
Jac, you go off like a violent cannon now and then. I know it's destructive to you. It might scare others too. I know sometimes you scare me. I hope you'll get control...you're not in danger here. And Ami is not helpless.
A little humility helps. It's easy to confuse that with being a victim, but they're not the same.
Hope I've helped and not poured kerosene on flame. But CB is a good person. And just after she's been feeling so good about her new life, and just after posting such a detailed, brave story...it made me sick to see her so maligned.
It felt...malignant. And made me sad.
I don't think this post will fix anything but silence doesn't feel right either. I'll duck and cover now, but first close with this:
How about we all spread kindness, and let grudges go with the breeze?
(If you think that's nicey-nice, I need to borrow a blood pressure cuff.)
love,
Hops
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Hops, I remember the friction that we had at the beginning. HOWEVER, you graciously left me to find my voice--only giving love, help and support along the way. The other person in question continued shaming me and trying to shut down my vulnerable attempts to heal..It is a real issue.It is as real an issue as any other.I stayed only b/c of pure grit. How many other people have left?
It has been addressed. It has been said.I, for one, am done with it.
Other voices getting involved will only be like a massive pig pile like when we were kids on the playground Ami
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Okay, Ami. I know there's different chemistry between different twosomes.
I'll step back and hope there's resolution.
Hard to tell the difference between meddling and watching Kitty Genovese out the window.
love,
Hops
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Hi all.
I remember earlier on the board I was afraid of Certain Hope. Ooo, I did not like her.
I made a few remarks. I was defensive. I snarked. Maybe mildly, but she's no dummy.
I wanted her to go away.
She scared me.
It had nothing to do with Hope at all. It was me, hearing an old voice from my childhood,
ascribing motives and intentions to Hope that had only to do with the eyes with which I was seeing her.
TRUTH? FAIRNESS? It was my beady little pupils.
Hope did go away for a while. :( I thought of her but didn't really want to.
A while back, she came back again. Just politely and gently started participating again.
I AM SO GLAD.
I heard her voice freshly. For some reason, my walls of defensiveness and projection (oh, Certain Hope is too certain for me...and anyone THAT religious is going to judge and skewer Unitarian Universalist me...etc.)...went away. Fell down like the walls of Jericho.
I read her. I heard her. I LIKED HER. I trusted her! I still do. Bam. It's just there. Enmity dissolved, mistrust evaporated. This is a good person and we had a wobbly start and that's one great big So What.
Not only that but she wrote me a tremendously grace-ful (verbally and spiritually) note to smooth the waters.
She stuck out her hand in friendship. I don't think I deserved it. She was walking her walk.
Because of my early wounds from religous training, I had been CHOOSING to look at this dear person in a suspicious and hostile light. After some minor irritation or misunderstanding that I didn't want to let go of. So I didn't "get" her or she didn't "get" me (I can't remember who said what at first, I don't cruise backward.) She not only forgave me but looked right past all that to say something very very kind to me.
That exchange...that change...was for me a microcosm the the very best this board has to offer.
Thank you, ((((((((((((((Hope))))))))))))))))) !
You, honey, put the st in Christian for me.
Poppy, you said it better than I can. But I share with you the hope that most of us will keep knowing,
despite sour episodes, what wonderful people are here and how sincerely they share.
We could spend our gimlet-eyed energy looking for the most negative interpretations and stay ready to pounce, we could nurture grudges until they grow green mold...those are option. Bleak ones, but they're choices.
I vote for renewal, for compassionate interpretation, and for treating people's intentions with respect. The log in one's own eye, and all that.
I believe supporting a vulnerable friend is an honorable and good thing to do.
But what may sound piously loyal can also provide a screen behind which something wounded lashes out quite viciously, all in the name of loyalty.
Ami, I'm sorry you carry a bad bruise. I think I was one person who didn't welcome you well, who didn't respect you knowing for yourself what process, what way of writing and working, was right for you. I am sorry for that. You set me straight and I believed you. And now I just read and appreciate how intensely you are doing what you have to do.
I hope you will let go of your grudge against CB. How can it help you to nurse it? I believe you. You were misunderstood by one member of a board some time back. Do you think you could let it go?
Jac, you go off like a violent cannon now and then. I know it's destructive to you. It might scare others too. I know sometimes you scare me. I hope you'll get control...you're not in danger here. And Ami is not helpless.
A little humility helps. It's easy to confuse that with being a victim, but they're not the same.
Hope I've helped and not poured kerosene on flame. But CB is a good person. And just after she's been feeling so good about her new life, and just after posting such a detailed, brave story...it made me sick to see her so maligned.
It felt...malignant. And made me sad.
I don't think this post will fix anything but silence doesn't feel right either. I'll duck and cover now, but first close with this:
How about we all spread kindness, and let grudges go with the breeze?
(If you think that's nicey-nice, I need to borrow a blood pressure cuff.)
love,
Hops
Hey, Hops... as a former beady-eye myself, I stand in agreement with all you've written above.
Malignant grudges and bitter roots of spite do crowd out the healing which alone can bring wholeness,
so I'm glad you posted here, Hops. Thank you for the reminder... and for setting such a great example.
Your method of speaking the truth in love is like grudge-chemo, purging out the half-truths and twisted-thinking
of bitterness and allowing the one ingredient we all need to remain.
I'm thankful that you've emerged from the trials and abuses of life with your heart intact, dear Hops... and I'm thankful that you are willing
to share your heart with us here, and especially thankful that you are my friend.
With love,
Carolyn
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Dear Hops,
. Our lives as abused people were so hard BECAUSE we would not face hard issues or interactions(IMO).
I think of the pain we could have been spared if we could have looked at a potential relationship with truth not "stars in our eyes"
I see that part of being wise is stating the truth of my life in a forthright manner.People get beaten and trampled when they do not have basic strength in life. Isn't THAT how we ended up so victimized.?
My voice is a strong voice,but a loving and fair voice. A weak voice is not the ideal. A voice that will not see the hard reality is not the ideal. That is a victims voice. Love Ami
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I hear you, Ami.
I know you are strong.
I'll stop here because triangulating isn't helpful and I've already done that.
I'm glad you responded though.
love
Hops
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Dear Hops,
I think that the relationship that we have is an 'ideal" relationship. We disagree on many,many things. We disagree on beliefs in God, therapy, support groups ,etc. We have disagreed from the beginning. However, you never took my difference as a way to demean me or push me off the board.
You continued to send kind words and love my way-- EVEN though I chose a different route of healing than you agreed with.You did not see me as a threat to your way of healing. You respected that I was simply different than you.You respected my voice
This is a model of friendship and love.This type of relationship would make the board safer. Love Ami
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Dear Authentic,
We have a right to ASK for an apology, BUT the person may never give it. . You have found your voice and your "space" in this world.You have found wisdom by fearless honesty..
Many people in life will never give us an apology. The issue is NOT whether we deserve it. The issue is that your worth ( and mine) is not dependent on anyone else"understanding" or validating us.
We stand up for our voices and then go on.We chose who we want to interact with.
Our value is NOT based on if anyone else understands or agrees. The great leaders in history had no one on their side.Courage is being able to go forward alone.
.We need to speak up when we are violated and then go on-..This is true in any life situation.
That is how I see it. Love Ami
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It is okay, Authentic. It really is. I think I understand your reasoning better after reading some of your above feelings. We can agree to disagree about how one should seek redress for our grievances. It is all fine from my side. I don't want you to think I am not hearing you or that your hurt feelings are not important. I don't think there is anything wrong with saying "OUCH!" This board and the bigger picture is where my statements were directed-- the "how" not the "what" of the redress. I hope you can see that.
All my love and my extended hand of peace,
Poppy