Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Learning on May 03, 2004, 04:51:15 PM
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Learning,
There's no way to know for absolute certain if your parents are Ns, since you can't give them a psychiatric evaluation. It's more of a decision you make based on their behavior over time.
bunny
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Dear Learning,
Yes, I think that some of it may be due to your voicelessness. When one is voiceless, as many of us here are (or WERE!) you are not used to expressing your thoughts, feelings or opinions. They are provided by the one or ones that try to keep you voiceless.
From what I have read here, most of us are dealing with N-type people that have not been officially diagnosed. Getting an N diagnosed is no easy thing !! They usually will not go for therapy and even when they do, they are very adept at behaving as their "image" would and not as their true self (that is....the one YOU have to deal with.) Also, they just plain lie a lot.
So, I wouldn't really worry about the LABEL part of it. If you can relate to what is being said here, then you are probably dealing with someone who is Narcissistic in some way. If you can relate, you probably are voiceless in some way because of the way someone has treated you. The name for what they are doesn't matter as much as the fact that you have now recognized your "voicelessness" and are searching for a way to heal. THAT is what is important.
And really.....if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck......it probably is a duck, isn't it ??
So, welcome Learning.....I like your name 'cause that's what we are all trying to do here.
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Welcome Learning,
Well, I can certainly understand your concern. I have a difficult time with labels too. I want to be careful not to dehuamize or depersonalize my loved ones. One day in my therapist's office I said said, "I don't know whether this classifies as 'abuse', or 'narcissism.' I just know he is driving me nuts!!!"
She said, it is indeed both, but the important part of that was that I had just validated my own experience! She went on to explain that lables help us to make sense of, validate, and interact differently with our experience.
Still not wanting to pin my experience on anyone but myself, my next question was, "Well, if someone is presenting such symptoms of having been emotionally abused, is there any possibility that it is in fact all in their head, or that abuse or narcissism is not to blame?"
She said "no." (In my mind I am still not certain about this one) but then maybe that is MY voicelessness coming through again!
All Ns are not alike in the manifestation of their behavior. I believe there is a scale of intensity, and different personalities of narcissism, if you will. I think in comparison, my H's N is mild, but it effects me negatively nonetheless. Relating to and learning from others on this board is much needed validation and understanding, even if my experience only shares some commonalities. I have learned that my parents have some N tendancies. If nothing else, this explains a lot about who I am, and how I became so voiceless. Understanding, or finding a frame of referrence is the first step, for me, to doing something different.
The other benefits are learning strategies for relating to the N behavioral tendancies in my life. And, knowing that other people have had the courage to say "enough" and draw mild to serious boundaries. This enables me to feel less guilty about self-preservation, at least. This is a supportive community. When you run out of strength and wisdom, others will lend you some of theirs. Lots of people here have a lot more wisdom about this stuff than I do, and how wonderful that everyone is willing to share with and support one another. Lots of people here are compassionate readers.
Does that help at all or make any sense? I hope to see more of you, and I hope that you can sojourn here for a while and gather some strength and healing!
Peace, sjkravill
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Hi sjkravill,
Still not wanting to pin my experience on anyone but myself, my next question was, "Well, if someone is presenting such symptoms of having been emotionally abused, is there any possibility that it is in fact all in their head, or that abuse or narcissism is not to blame?"
She said "no." (In my mind I am still not certain about this one) but then maybe that is MY voicelessness coming through again!
What an interesting conversation. I think I’m going to bring that up at my next session because I’ve been curious for a while about how/when my therapist knew that narcissism was something I should look into. I know what you mean about whether it's in your head or not (am I the crazy one? did I make them behave in crazy ways?).
To add more to your therapist’s statement, this quote from When You and Your Mother Can’t Be Friends helped me find the confidence I needed to be able to remain firm with my own understanding of my relationship with my mom - instead of becoming completely crippled with self-doubt, which is what usually happens.
"'In almost all cases, it is the psychological consequences of an act that define that act as abusive,' whether that act is sexual or physical abuse, or merely an assault on the spirit. "
Wildflower
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Wildflower,
Thanks for that quote. That is helpful.
The funny/sad/strange thing is that often I don't trust what my therapist says until I read it somewhere...
I think I am most hesitant to buy in on something when on some level I don't want what she says to be true... hmm...
Thanks for the thoughts! Peace, sjkravill
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Hello Learning and all,
Sjkravill, funny, I have a different kind of doubt with my therapist. Every time I leave until the time I return I wonder, will she still want me to be her client? Am I worthy? This is what my wonderful childhood did for me....seeker
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Does anyone have any knowledge/experience regarding how to be confident that narcissism is what they are dealing with?
Thanks!
Learning
Learning,
What brought it home to me was when my NMother turned on her "favorite" grandson. Narcissists truly are not capable of love. That can be hard to spot because they can act very loving when they want to. And anyone can be cranky, or act thoughtlessly from time to time, most everyone does. But it's much more than that. A child especially knows when he or she is not loved. It's an absence that can be felt on a gut level. Something just doesn't "ring true".
Singer
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Sjkravill, funny, I have a different kind of doubt with my therapist. Every time I leave until the time I return I wonder, will she still want me to be her client? Am I worthy? This is what my wonderful childhood did for me....seeker
Hey Seeker, I am sorry you have to think about this, or that this is a natural progression.
I have feel something similar. I often wonder if my therapist is tierd of seeing me or frustrated with me, or board to tears with me, because I think my progress is so slow. I especially freak out about this if she suggests I come back after more time than usual. I think, "maybe she feels at a loss with me, like she nees a break from me." Now that you mention it, this may well be a childhood issue...
I wonder if others who struggle with voicelessness have similar anxiety about therapy. Have you ever spoken with your therapist about this? I never have with mine... maybe I will sometime.
Thanks for sharing! Peace, sjkravill
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Hi seeker,
Sjkravill, funny, I have a different kind of doubt with my therapist. Every time I leave until the time I return I wonder, will she still want me to be her client? Am I worthy? This is what my wonderful childhood did for me....
Oh boy, me, too. I keep waiting for my therapist to come out with it and tell me how horrible I am and how horrible it was to sit through my endless blabbing about myself. It's been four years and I'm only now starting to believe her when she says she wants to be there to support me - cos I never got support growing up. (Is this a trick??)
{EDIT: wow sjkravill, you too? :shock: I just posted this immediately when I read it...didn't get to your posting. Geez. That's it. I'm going to bring this up at my next session. Time to face this demon.}
Wildflower
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Seeker, thank you for saying that. Now I really don’t feel so alone! Seeker, you’re one of the ‘original members’ to me, one I look up to and for you to say that is…humbling for me, realising we really are all in this together. No-one ‘better’ than the others, nobody necessarily more advanced up the healing road…just all different, with different experiences, but with the fact that we were in some way abused, sadly, in common.
:idea: I have a problem with authority figures! Like you and Dr G – I think you know more than me and therefore I treat you both with distance….with a jokey disrespect…gonna try and stop that. Darn. (If I let the authority figures close to me, they’ll take advantage, like my step-dad won’t they?) :idea:
When I wonder if my mother really is an N, I think (sometimes, on a good day) does it matter? What matters is that I know for absolutely sure that I was an emotionally abused child – and need to get better. That's all I need to know for sure.
And hey what you guys think about what your therapists think about you …. I think the same about this board!!!!! Ha ha ha! Won’t post too much today, won’t take up too much room on the board ….don’t want people to get fed up with me…. And so on. When I get 4 posts at the top with my name on – I have to stop out of worry that I post too much! Ha ha ha. Shaking head. Hiya Learning, Singer and Caroline and Michelle from previous threads, I’m reading you all, ready to learn from everybody and anybody without exception! :D P
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Hello again everyone,
Portia, you make me blush! I think you've definitely earned your own set of N board stripes.
Wildflower and Sjkravill: the little hairs on my arms stood on end when I read your replies. Wow. I know my reaction to therapy is in my own head and not something coming from the therapist. I'm glad I put it out there on the board and found out you feel something similar. S, you're right, it is a progression. I had felt this before but now I feel strong and aware enough to take a look at this reaction.
To Learning and everyone: I think labels help when looking for information and perhaps to containerize the whole big mess. Sjkravill, guest, and bunny are on target in getting us to focus on our reactions as well as to the actions of others. Because of the lack of empathy, Ns really don't know what the "unintended consequences" (reactions) are to their actions. Some don't really intend to hurt, they just need to control so they don't get hurt. This is yer garden-variety self-absorbed N. It's the really aggressive ones that do know what they are doing that are scary...I don't know if my NSIL is borderline or not, but the information I read about how to cope with it was enlightening and useful.
Lastly, the fact that Learning is asking "How do you know for sure?" is so poignantly ACON (a question of self-doubt and caring). Learning, if you can accept your parents behavior without harming yourself and it doesn't get in the way of your self-care, then more power to you. If they are eroding away at your soul and existence and are truly toxic, only you can know because it is how you feel that is part of the equation. The new knowledge for most ACONs is that their feelings do indeed count.
Thanks everybody. This has really helped me. Seeker
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Dear Singer--
Thank you for your response!
What brought it home to me was when my NMother turned on her "favorite" grandson.
I think I can relate to how you feel about that. Is her favorite grandson your son? This is a big fear of mine. My mother acts like she loves my daughters, especially the oldest one (because she is her first grandchild). I am so afraid that she will hurt my daughter. I have cut off visitations since January, but I don't know if I have the resolve to keep up with it. The flipside is that my daughter loves my mother. I am lost on how to handle the whole situation.
No, her favorite grandson was my sister's son. My mother spent a lot of time with him while he was growing up. Less time as he got older and my sister realized that NMother was pumping him for information to prove that Sis was a "Bad Mother" (thereby reinforcing her position as the One and True "Good Mother") Result: very confused and troubled adolescent boy who finally at the age of 28 is trying to put his life back together.
My own two daughters spent very little time alone with Grandma, not because I knew what the problem was, but because I knew something was just not right. Instinct maybe? Anyway it's ok that your daughter loves her grandmother. Mine loved their grandmother too, and accepted that they didn't need to stay over at grandma and grampa's too often because wouldn't it be more fun if we had them over to our house? :wink:
They are both in their twenties now and have seen enough of Grandma's escalating antics to form their own opinions. I'm sure they still love her, but it's tinged with the sadness that comes when you have to give up your illusions. Part of growing up.
Hang in there and stay sane!
Singer
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Hey Seeker and Wildflower,
You are both going to approach the issue of not feeling worthy with your therapists. Good for you! I don't think I am there yet. I am still too afraid that I might be accurate in my perception... Or that my saying so would cause the therapist to think "damn! she's worse off than I thought!... woe is me! ... I need another break! " Seriously, I don't have the courage for that conversation yet! I am giggling at my own rediculousness... Sometimes its either laugh or cry, you know?
Hey Portia, I worry that I am posting here too much too, even though I think it is a tool that we can each use as much as we need for healing. We are afterall being empowered to have a voice! I judge others much less than I judge myself. For what it's worth, I like hearing your voice. I appreciate your honesty. Maybe we could both try to worry less about it...
Hey Learning,
I understand wishing in some wierd sense that your parents were more obviously fitting under some kind of a lable. I sometimes wish that about my husband, because it would give my experience some kind of valididty or justification (ok, if we're being honest, so that I could get out more easily). But, I also thank God that he is not worse than he is. Part of me loves him, hopes for change and would never dream of "getting out." That, and I don't imagine intensified behavior would make the situation easier!
Anyway, I am glad we all have this place to have our voices! Thank you all, as always for your truth.
Peace, sjkravill
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Mom has reported to me that she has gone to therapy. This was based on my encouragement because I do not feel safe leaving my children alone with her (neither does my husband and my sister has expressed similar concerns to her). According to her, she has seen 2 different therapists. The first one told her she was fine and that I was the problem. She actually told me that she stopped seeing this therapist because the therapist thought I was such an awful person. The second one told her that she has a "disassociative way of looking at the world" and that with a couple of short sessions, she can be retrained. Mom also made it a point to tell me that the only reason this therapist even met with her was because mom told her that her children won't let her be alone with her grandchildren.
Learning:
I would take your mother's reports with a truckload of salt. Her version of what happened with the therapists sounds ludicrous. (Except for the dissociative part, that seems accurate.) Your mother is extremely self-serving. Keep protecting your children from her.
bunny
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Hi Learning,
I must second what Bunny says about protecting your kids. When they are old enough to understand, you can explain the truth in simple terms why they never got to sleepover or whatever. (I did this re my NSIL) Your mother will only try to erode your relationship with your kids with her crazymaking. Be consistent and credible with your kids and you will be okay. Kids know who they can trust if you do that. Best, Seeker
PS What I said to my kids was "soandso had a hard life (true) and that makes her act in way that are unacceptable to me." I gave one or two examples and then they understood why we didn't see her anymore.
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Hi Learning,
All of this discussion is really intended to give you food for thought and not necessarily pinpoint any conclusions esp. about one's parents. Because you are beginning your journey of awareness, please don't try to rush in to any "right" arrangement or what have you. Your relationship with your mom continues to evolve over time and you have everyone's "permission" here to trust your instincts, not what anybody else says.
Once my therapist said jokingly that I had her "permission" to stop seeing my abusive SIL, it kind of jolted me awake! Wow, I was asking for permission, what's up with that?! My dilemma was needing to protect myself vs. still wanting to retain everyone's approval and opinion that I am a nice person. SIL heaped loads of social abuse on me as punishment for cutting her off. I worried that people would think I'm two-faced or a hypocrite. I would walk down the street telling myself, I am a good person. I know I am a good person. It was hard, but time was on my side. After the first wave of assaults, there was nothing left for her to do to me. I simply didn't respond.
I also know what you mean about mom being the sweet one. When we've obliterated our dads as jerks, how can we turn on the one that is left? I am struggling with this very issue. My mom has her soldiers to do her fighting for her, but she often sets the agenda, pushing for a particular outcome. It's hard to accept that moms can be responsible for at least some of our pain.
Hope this helps to shed a little light, Seeker
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Oh my gosh. My immediate and actually ongoing emotional reaction is..."no not my mom, she has always been the sweet one. She loves me I know she does. I must have misquoted her, I must have lied about what really happened." I was so upset about this that I went back to her emails to make sure that I wrote about it correctly. And I must tell you (because I am so anal about details) that I did misquote her. She actually said that the second therapist wanted to meet with her a few times to teach her not to get upset (I had said to retrain her). Does that change your impression, bunny?
Learning, no, it doesn't change my impression that she has distorted what happened in her visits to therapists. For one thing, no therapist would have told her this. They don't offer to meet "a few times" to teach someone "not to get upset." That is simply not what a therapist does. So I think she is self-serving and probably not very honest with herself or with you. Don't feel bad about it, I know you're still in some denial about her. And I'm sure she has her good aspects. But not enough to entrust your children with her.
bunny
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Hi Learning,
This is the part that hit me when you talked about your mom going to therapy.
The first one told her she was fine and that I was the problem. She actually told me that she stopped seeing this therapist because the therapist thought I was such an awful person.
Why would she say a thing like that to you? I'd be really hurt if my mom said that to me. :cry:
Regarding N's and therapy, my dad said he stopped going to therapy because he realized he was wasting money entertaining his therapist, and that every therapist he'd ever had thought he was a genius and they just sat around asking him to share his knowledge. He didn't need help. He was a genius. :roll:
I know this is really rough, all this thinking about N's. So don't worry about being needy here, okay? I can see how you might feel that way, but you don't seem too needy from where I'm sitting. :)
Hang in there,
Wildflower
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Hey Seeker and Wildflower and Portia...
In response to our discussion about feelings of unworthiness in therapy... I said I did not have the courage to face this. Well, I saw my therapist today, and after she explained something to me (for the zillionth time) I asked "Do you ever get tierd of having to tell me the same things visit after visit?"
She replied "No, because I know how easy it is to lose your experience."
So, without going into how much I worried about it, I sort of faced it... I didn't think I could... a tiny, tiny victory. "baby steps!"
Learning,
Thank you for sharing your stories about your relationships. Actually, one of the hardest things for me is to vailidate my experience, or to use the lables. It's hard for me to say to myself "this experience was abusive." It's especially hard when the act of 'abuse' was seemingly subtle, and unassuming.... When N does a really convincing job of framing my reality, I trade his alleged intention for my experience... I think, he is wonderful and I am horrible for perceiving of this situation as abusive. It can get to be a mind f*** at times. My ability to deal with it comes and goes. That's part of what keeps me. The other part is a sincere love for him, and hope that we can both heal.
One day at a time...
Peace, sjkravill
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Hiya Learning, it’s difficult to write this without sounding trite but – you will be past all this one day. It’s hard work and willingness to change I guess…I’m guessing because I don’t really know myself. This will pass for sure though.
And some people find being light-hearted or jokey stops them imploding – it doesn’t work for everyone. Not necessarily something to admire or frown upon – just a different approach?
Give yourself the okay to be sad…or any other emotion you feel. There’re no bad emotions…only emotions….and hey, you don’t have to think straight all the time either. Sometimes not thinking straight gives you clues to a way out/on/forward…best wishes..P
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Hi Learning,
I am starting to understand the mechanics of the N disease, but I still can't really understand why they do this. I mean how can they? It is so conniving and cruel You inspire me by saying that you can deal with it some of the time. I don't think I'll ever be able to. Right now my only defense it to run.
I have the same experience of not understanding this. Even after I read a book, read this board, or talk to my therapist, even after it is explained to me a zillion times, I still find myself asking "but why/how on earth???" Have you read Dr. G's website on voicelessness and Narcissism? It's the first site that comes up when I type "voicelessness" into my google search. I have read it several times. It makes sense. Still, this behavior will never really "make sense." I have had other converstaions on this board with the struggle to "get it" internally. I understand it intellectually, but cannot internalize my understanding or come to any sort of acceptance.
I also wanted to say that "running" may be a very healthy response. Your soul is telling you to get away! The same reaction when happens when one touches a hot pan. One's body says "danger" and it pulls away. One doesn't keep one's hand on the pan and try to talk it into cooling off! It may eventually cool off, but it will be too late for your hand!Ok, forgive my stupid analogy. Maybe the only thing you need to 'get' is that this relationship is destructive. Your must take care of you before you can care for anyone else.
People are not pans, are they? :) There are lots of factors to consider. When I say sometimes I can deal with it, I mean some days I have hope for change. Some days I am really good at drawing strict boundaries and sticking to them. Some days I am not completely exhausted and destroyed, and I have some patience. Some days I don't beat myself up.
Self deception or realistically based optomism???? Don't know!
I have not really been able to assess the long-term harms and benefits. If things don't change in the long run, it may be better if I had the courage to 'run.' Perhaps this is really linked to the internal understanding of a situation. I do know that either option (staying or leaving) can be very painful and hopeful at the same time...
Peace, sjkravill
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Hi Learning,
We understand how overwhelming it can be. I was excited, validated when I found this information. Then angry and upset. Then confused. Did this really happen to me? Why didn't I realize what was going on before, why now? etc etc. I would immerse myself in information, then have to back off to process it all. And maybe do some laundry...
In addition, as an ACON our feelings were denied time and again and so just feeling the feelings is a bit different and uncomfortable. No one is around to tell you how they expect you to feel about this. And if they were, they would tell you "it" doesn't exist or isn't a problem! It's a very weird Catch-22.
So, just feel your feelings and don't push yourself for understanding too quickly. Your feelings will tell you how far and how fast to go. There is really no deadline. Post if you want or just surf along. We'll be here if you need us. Take care, Seeker
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Actually, one of the hardest things for me is to vailidate my experience, or to use the lables. It's hard for me to say to myself "this experience was abusive." It's especially hard when the act of 'abuse' was seemingly subtle, and unassuming.... When N does a really convincing job of framing my reality, I trade his alleged intention for my experience... I think, he is wonderful and I am horrible for perceiving of this situation as abusive. It can get to be a mind f*** at times. My ability to deal with it comes and goes. That's part of what keeps me. The other part is a sincere love for him, and hope that we can both heal.
One day at a time...
Peace, sjkravill
Hi Sjkravil, I can very well relate to that. I in a way am desparately searching for that Label just to feel 'secure' in a way because I have problems trusting my own experiences. I have often asked my ex-therapist
as to who is the abuser? was it my dad or was it my mom ? what is it called ? is it emotional or is it neglect or is it more ? etc And she used to remind me again and again that only I would know cos she has never met my parents and to convince myself of my own experiences. I never could cos there are those strong voices implanted for their own selfish motives that contradicts and overwhelms my own experiences. Typical work of an N I think.
I even feel guilty of contradicting that 'trust of love' or bond or whatever that exists between me and the N. Imagine , I sometimes feel guilty of posting this or saying this to the therapist, cos sometimes I feel I am wrong and is simply 'unfaithful' or not affectionate enough towards my parents?
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Learning,
No need to apologize. I would have replied sooner, but I was too busy and couldn't. Even now, I'm short on time..
I think you were severely traumatized and that's why you're still thinking about this stuff. For goodness's sake, one doesn't just forget about it. I think you're in therapy, which is the right place.
The following may shock you, and I'm sorry. But I am not blaming you AT ALL. Just wanted to say that your father (as far as I can tell) should be incarcerated. I don't think you owe him anything. He should have been arrested. I am very sorry for you, and for all the teenagers he harmed.
bunny
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Hi Learning,
No need to apologize! You were/are wounded and are now able to look at it and start healing. That's growth.
BTW, your post didn't sound all that angry or sarcastic, esp. in light of all you went through. But I can believe you are feeling that way. Please be gentle with yourself and allow yourself to create your own process of getting through this. Give yourself the time and patience you wish you had when you were little.
if you want to write it all out, that's what the board is for. Maybe your "stuff" needs to come out to meet the light of day. Go ahead. Or don't. There's no wrong way to wrestle with it. Peace, Seeker
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Hi Learning,
It's me, Seeker, again. I really feel for you, Learning. Really. There's a lot of stuff here to sort through (esp. after having a child, which can really alter a person's worldview). I know Bunny will give you some great insight (and how she is able to do it in just a few words is a special skill!)
Just wanted to suggest that since you don't feel able to free up time/availability to see a therapist right at the moment, you might want to check out the other section of this board "What Helps". Lots of good suggestions. Your stuff is right at the surface and you need ways to deal with it now. Glad you found the board.
One thing I would suggest is something you are already doing in one form on this board: writing. There are studies that show that when one writes about an event along with (this is the key part) how they FELT about that event, it has a very healing and positive effect on the person's outlook. One book I would recommend if you wanted to try this in more quantity in a journal is Louise DeSalvo's Writing as a Way of Healing. Don't get a fancy journal, just a spiral-bound notebook and start letting it rip. Keep it in a safe private place, just for you. You can even burn it afterwards if you want. It's the act of writing it and owning your feelings that counts.
I am concerned that you feel/felt like an accomplice in your father's crimes. I am concerned that you are feeling too responsible for acts you didn't do, and decisions you didn't make. In a way, you were in the same position as the victims who also felt that they couldn't speak the unspeakable and turn your father in. This is a biggie and you need to feel able to give the responsibility for those things back to your big, bad dad. Write it out, say how you felt/feel and give it back to him in your journal. It will help, I promise.
I defer to Bunny on the whistle-blowing part. Perhaps the victims themselves should make the decision, since they may or may not want to step forward.
Hope this helps a bit. Bye for now, Seeker
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Learning,
You could NOT have stopped your father. No way. You didn't have the power to do it. Nor were you responsible for your father's bad actions. So that's out of the way.
Yes, there is something you can still do, if you want. It's a difficult thing, so you may not want to. You can look in the phone book, in the front, under "government pages" for a number to call for "Child Abuse Reporting." If he has access to any teenage boys, I urge you to call this number.
bunny
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