Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: isittoolate on September 19, 2007, 05:25:00 PM
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Hello all,
When N-mother did this (long drawn out explanation) to me, think "This is my perception of it because this is who I am/was".
When N-husband did this (long drawn out explanation) to me, think "This is my perception of it because this is who I am/was".
The important part of regaining our voice is not what happened to us (although horrific) but how we perceived it, and why and how we can change ourselves to gain the strength, assertiveness and the self-confidencce to never allow anyone to ever do this again.
The N damage is in the past, hopefully, if you have reached this board to share. (If we keep remembering the explicit harms done, we haven't 'let go'.) I have been guilty of saying N-ex son-in=law did this or that and another thing, but as the therapy continues and reading on this Board, I doubt I will be saying that again.
I will be saying I had a problem with my s-i-l and didn't stand up for myself, but now I am learning to and it feels soooooooooooo good! This shows what I have learned about WHY certain (what I thought of as awful on someone else's part)happened to me--I allowed them.
I think maybe I am saying that, sometimes, too much time is spent on decribing the N ( makes me feel that Ns are getting CREDIT for being so cruel) when we all know what they do. If we want to know "the worst things" we could start a thread on it, but mainly I feel this Board is to discuss ourselves, our faults, our improvements, our sliding back, our coming forth again, and what we are learning about ourselves -- what quality we were missing to have allowed this to happen.
I think I might be the (oldest) only person on the Board who had so many wrong perceptions about life, that wherever they came from, I grew up believing them.
My therapist asked yesterday, "Wherever did you come up with that idea?" and it made me think about who told me that, or did I have to make it up to survive?
So for one, I was so insecure I never stood up for myself and was walked over as though I had a sign on my forehead!
That leads to not trusting my own judgement to speak up with confidence.
So I have put everybody on 'the other side of my fence' and one by one I am trying to deal with My perception...fault?... of what happened with him/her as a toxic person to me, to see if that is true or not!
Did I make any sense?
Izzy
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Wise Izzy,
You are so wise and always see the issues so clearly. I'm sure glad that you are on the side of the good guys!!! I agree with your assessments, and so have some work to do- I haven't even rid myself of all the gee-gaws yet, but I'd better get on with it and Izzyfy myself further, while I have the master to guide me!
Love,
Changing
PS- Why are you always right!!??!!
Love, C.
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Izzy:(If we keep remembering the explicit harms done, we haven't 'let go'.)
and this is peoples' arguments for those of us who dared to post "our story" on the board too. So why then do we not end that section if this is how some feel?
personally, in my flesh, I'd like to blast it from the highest mountain, the abuse I've been through...for the rest of my life, but what good does it do. The abusers don't see it, don't acknowledge that it happened, or say I misinterpreted it all...so what's the point of telling one's story if the outcome still remains that the abuser continues to abuse and desert you, me, others?
~Just my view
~L
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It is so easy for me to see dysfunction in other people. I see people re visiting their past hurts over and over. It is like a dog returning to its vomit! I think I am getting to the point that I do not wallow in self pity but I do think maybe I do some things automatically without thinking about it. You go through that stage where you are mad or hurt and kind of obsess about it dont you? Good topic Iz!
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Changing,
My pizza came and I had to stop and I am not always right
Thank you for your kind words.
an example for me was when my s-i-l kicked me out. I just left. The estrangement still exists.
I could have stayed right there and said:
I am your elder and deserve some respect.
I am your wife's mother
I am grandmother to your children
KC has done nothing wrong and I believe that 30 minutes is far to long to tirade at your son.
I know what it is like to cry without making a noise, only the tears running down my cheeks and that is KC right now.
Do you know what he is feeling?
He might be afraid of you right now. He might be wondering if he will be in double trouble, if he makes a noise.
I come here 3 days a week, 7 hours as day and look after the children
You owe me $55, 000.00 and I see no improvements from that money
Now finish your hamburger and we all will have cake and party!
Might that have put him in his placve, made my daughter respect me for standing up for myself and her and the kids. Might that have made things worse, or might he just have realized what side his bread was buttered on, and we would all still be a famly!!!!
Did I answer my own post as I was talking about?
xx
Izzy
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really ME
Yes, stories are posted and that is my reference to posting the horrible details elsewhere.
What I would like to see is less talk about the N, as we all know they abuse and will continue to abuse for the rest of their lives.
Now our postings can reference something then the part of you that allowed that, and what you could have done about it. I think we are all old enough, that we can even think of childhood things and know the abuser, then ask ourselves, what could I have done?
Like "Mommmy, you hurt me when you yell at me". "Daddy why do you hit me with the strap all the time?"
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Izzy,
You are 100% on the button...
I ws thinking about this today... When I got here, someone had seen me running and asked if I was a runner. I was taken aback, because, look at me... I don't look like a runner. Likewise, I met a person on Okinawa who asked me if I was a diver, and I was amazed - do I look like a diver (I was and still am licensed). I felt embarrassed to be asked this because I am so unconfident and assume people look at me and size me up and see some 'real' me that was set by my mother. This is ENTIRELY my perception. I am trying to realize that I can do all these things. I don't have to be held back by the feeling that I cannot because of the way I look or act. Does this make any sense??
Thank you for a good topic, Iz.
Love, Beth
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Laura,
I think the reason for having the posts on our stories is for those looking to see if they've found the right place for help. If they can relate, they will know they are not alone. I am actually stalled in writing my story because I have let a lot of it go and don't really feel like trying to go back and remember it all. I am kind of through with it. I wrote it in a journal that is around somewhere, and when I find it I will fill in my story - but only for the sake of those looking to see if they belong here.
Love, Beth
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Dear Izzy,
I can relate, especially to having grown up with a lot of perceptions that were `off', and to your observations regarding how we heal from N abuse.
Two things I notice with victims of N abuse, is that many of us go through a phase of `getting into our heads' and the tone of our posts is extremely cerebral. The other thing I notice is what you described: the need to understand and talk about the N, almost obsessively.
I have grown to see these phases as normal parts of the healing process. I think they help to undo the `brainwashing', and to rise above the strong emotional pull of an N who is a loved one. When one starts to feel that they are are focusing too much on the N and feel `too cerebral', it usually means they have come along way and are ready for the next step in their healing. Thats something I've nooticed, anyway.
You sound like you're in a good place, Izzy. I think the fact you raise these questions shows how far you've come.
Love Bella
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Wonderful Izzy-
I have ongoing safety issues with Wormbag, so I cannot entirely consign his N stuff to the past- we remain in a serious contest. I do see the wisdom in seeing how to prevent previous N things from happening again in the time that I might be revisiting the abuse for the 1000th time- learning and improving myself, as you do. Which is why I am Izzyfying right now!
If you did not speak in certain instances Izzy, perhaps you avoided a greater harm and were protecting your loved ones. You are not to blame for the bad acts of others. Now you are free from the situation and you help me and others speak truth and power when we need to. I kept my mouth shut with the cops last week, and as a result got away from them (finally). I can tell you what happened, and you then give me the benefit of your wisdom. I know that you did your best with your daughter and the children, were incredibly generous and loving, and I think everyone else in the situation knows that too. I can only pray that they show you the love and respect that you deserve. I pity them that they are missing such a terrific and good person and loving family member from their lives.
Love You,
Changing
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Thank you Bella,
I have put all the Ns out of my head, for the most part, and they are only a reference point for me to question my own perceptions and fix them when I feel they are wrong---like using a dictionary or atlas for reference.
I know there are some who obsess about the N to the point of wanting revenge (because I was that way for awhile) and now I realize the the man I met never existed; he was a puff of smoke that disappeared when his mask fell off.
They will continue on with their abuse and forget we ever existed. That is the thing to think about. Thet never loved us and when we left, we were forgotten, so why obsess and want him back?
Thanks for your post.
Love
Izzy
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thanks OC
I almost responded to you in my response to Bella.
You are right about the obsession, and if people read and understand about the N moving on and forgetting, although there is the stalker, not my experience, we can get on with our lives and wonder what was lacking in us that we made such a choice in the first place.
I was missing my daughter and the kids, alone, going nowhere, and he talked of setting up a computer business together. Oh that made me happy, and we did, but he's bankrupt now. I never saw any red flags so we need a N101 class in school for our youngsters.
Love
Izzy
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ReallyMe-
I think that you make good sense about stopping current behaviors of Ns when you can- I certainly don't want anyone to damage you, and will stand up for you if I see such a thing. We can also review what happened before with an eye toward self improvement and becoming resistant, like a healthy tree against parasites. We can't blame ourselves for not knowing before, but can grow wiser now (like our Izzy)- I've seen you do it and it makes me glad for you!!!!
Love,
Changing
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Me too Izzy,
I don't give my ex's much thought any more, other than fleeting thoughts of contempt and a shudder to think I got involved with someone like that. You're right; even thinking about them feels like a waste of our valuable life. I did go through the `obsessive/ trying to understand/ wanting vengence' phase too. Then it felt wrong for me, and I stopped. I am happy that you have reached this place in your healing:)
X bella
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A woodchuck would chuck all the wood he could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood!
Izzy you brainy girl! An education in N- like an innoculation without mercury or side effects- just mental N antibodies!!!! Please sign me up - I am still limited in my ability to see things (as witnessed by last week)
Love,
changing
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Hi Beth,
I'm not sure.....Are you saying you don't think you look like a runner or a diver because of what was implanted in your little growing self? And since you don't, that people 'see through' you and put you in the same compartment as your mother did?
xx
Izzy
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Hi changing
In my post #11, I was thinking about you, and used the term, unless there's a stalker. I think that stalking must be a very scary thing, as after I left and would go out, I was always looking over my shoulder. No need. I've seen him 2 x in 5 yrs, 3 mos. So I understand your position and newcomers might also be in a "just left" position.
Thanks for your kind words regarding my daughter.
Blaming ourselves is just revisiting the past to understand what we did, or didn't, do and then somehow forget blaming ourselves---throw it to the winds--- and do it a different way!
Forgetting things that happened is difficult, but I found that hard work, meeting new people, having fun and learning new things took my mind off many things.
Love
Izzy
EDIT:--oh yes and breaking one's leg can make for hours of conversation.....about the leg and the people you meet.
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I hear a lot of truth and intelligent observation coming from on top of that high vantage point. And good conversation too. It assists in keeping one focused, improving (Izzyfying) and more impervious to assaults. Just please don't fall from your perch again and break the other leg! We need you intact, ready to arouse anger or discuss!
Love,
Changing
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Yes, Izzy, that is what I mean. I feel like I am not those things because I don't "look" like them. In our family, if you didn't look the part, you couldn't be it. But, since there were ever-changing ideas of what things were supposed to be/look like, I was never clear on what they were. So I always just feel like I'm not "it."
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Hi Beth,
Did you notice I left you to the last for a reply while I 'wondered'? :lol:
If a stranger tells you that you look like a runner, and you do, what does the stranger have to gain by lying to you? So stranger has told the truth!
Same with the diving: what would a stranger have to gain?
Now in the family you are a runner and a diver---great!!--but a parent who might be jealous of the child is bound to have some ambient or straight out disparaging remarks to "put you in your place"," to bring you down to their level because they cannot do it", and that is awful as children require praise from their parents.
Don't you hate it when some control freak is always changing the rules?
I have a sister, Beth, who is an N. She has been a troublemaker since a child. When we were all growing up, I was about 3 when I shoved as broom handle down her throat. Could I have known at that young age that she was trouble?
As we went into puberty, our younger sister, Ruth, a bit chubby was growing breasts before Beth and I were. Ruth found herself a bra and wore it. Beth told her she was too young to wear one, so Ruth stopped. She blamed Beth for her having such poor muscle tone in her breasts later on, as she became larger. Ruth still might mention the influence (her word and I know what she means) that Beth had on her life. As well, Beth told Ruth that she couldn't have any children because she had heard a conversation between mom and our doctor that Ruth would never have a period and therefore could never have children. This was so cruel!! I didn't know until a few years later.
One morning Ruth had her period, I didn't yet, but I had snooped enough in their bedroon to know how to hook her up to a pad and she was wailing/sobbing the whole time. Eventually she told me what Beth had done and that she was crying from relief.
Beth betrayed me, Oh so many times, and I just couldn't/can't believe she did what she did. So family, in some cases, means nothing.
I am trying to understand myself without tacking on any family member--just me alone. Some people worry about my aloneness, but I am fine. I can deal with it and make notes and know better what I'm doing or not doing right!
I don't have anyone in particular to improve for, but myself, but just maybe God will allow me to squeeze through the Pearly Gates!
Love
Izzy
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changing,
GET me down from that perch!
The thing that scares me the most is breaking an arm! If I did I would have no idea what to do!
izzyfy--a brand new word. Thank you!!!
xx
Izzy
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Thank you, Izzy, for your thoughtful response. You know, your answer almost goes back to Anastasia's question of how we become what we become. Why would your sister be so mean, when you weren't??? Or at least you were not mean in the way that meant you were trying to destroy them...
I am not telling you this here because I dwell on what is/was said to me. Fortunately, I ealized recently that this was my reaction to anyone's comments to me. So... another area I can work on. It is so nice when you identify a problem so that you can erase it. And... it is thanks to your topic that I solidified the thought.
Have a great night, (((((((Izzy))))))))))
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(((((((((((((((((Beth)))))))))))))))))))))
thanx
iz
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You are just going about Izzyfying everybody! And a good thing too! We can build you a proper throne with a powerful telescope instead of that precarious perch, Dear One. Have you ever seen one of those forest observation towers? Yowsuh...amazingly high up there! Well, OK, back down to earth.
Hope you had a good pizza- I'm still examining my anti N abilities and divesting myself of gee-gaws. I dare not even think about what I was told about myself when younger- I would have to search for a tail!
Love,
Changing
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good for you, bean
she dropped a turd on me---I hope not physically
Some one who makes snide comments such as your boss did is rude, unladylike, insecure, and probably hasn't been laid for a while, as well as could be an N.
It sounds as though you really didn't dwell badly on that remark. She is the rude one and if/when we come to a point that we can just ignore, ( & think "TURD") it could, now and again, make her, and others, sit up and take notice?
Oh yes and by filling you life with other things, work and play and being supportive of another person can sure help take your mind off a rude remark like that. Next time you see her think of her with a turd on HER head, or a cow pie---a loose one.
I am so glad that you felt so good, enough to share that. Sometimes it seems a little thing, then bigger then bigger then bigger, and the next you know you could stand up to Larry King, and never reveal one personal thing about your sex life!
Love Izzy
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bean,
Brava on dealing so well with the situation and thanks a lot for making me spit out my coffee when you said she "dropped a turd on me." You should write poetry, my dear... LOLOLOLOL. I love it.
Love, Beth
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Hi Iz,
Time after time as you describe your thoughts and activities and circumstances, I hear honesty, kindness, gentleness, self-control, patience, love, humor, peace, goodness, faithfulness...If all this emanates from a woman who 'can't feel (I'm talking about in the emotional sense), then shame on us who give humanity a black eye by turning our feelings into word weapons. I do it sometimes and I'm ahamed.
Love,
tt
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Thank you tt ,
for your lovely post. I sometimes think of myself as an enigma, because I say I don't feel and I believe that is true, mainly because I don't cry.
From my head I know what is happy, sad, worth grieving, what's funny, etc. and I respond accordingly.
I've often wondered if anyone can understand what I am saying to get to the root of my problem. I think my therapist is right and that I have disconnectd and my head just echoes the feelings.
Perhaps I am forcing myself to not feel so I will never be hurt again,
I did say to my therapist, "I am awfully 'contained', aren't I?" re a certain topic and she agreed, so being very open and honest with her about this, she still sees me as disconnected.
Maybe I am one for the BOOKS?
Thanks again
Izzy
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hi Shunned,
Thank you for understanding. More people did than I thought.
I realized as I went over and over the time he damaged my car that I was just obsessing and kept seeing my poor car in a damaged state, obsessing re that and many other instances. The point being he is an N/P and always will be.
The past is there for reference only, in my opinion, and that is why I have not carried any hatred forward for the people who hurt me-----but then I always thought there was something wrong with me, and that part of the problems were likely mine---but WHY?
(If we keep remembering the explicit harms done, we haven't 'let go'.)
The key word in that is "explicit" --almost lke reliving every minute, hour day, month, year of what transpired and no one can make the horror of the experience fade with time if it is kept 'alive'. AS it fades with time, I find I have fewer things to even remember and that is good, becasue for all of us the important person now is ourselves
See my post above to TT and I realized that problem after the N fact--#1 being I didn't, coudn't, stand up, speak up for myself and hadn't all my life, so I am working on me (and revisit, all my life)
Good Luck
Izzy
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Hi Iz,
I have a cousin who says she is unable to cry. I've never questioned her about it. Just took her word for it.
Were you ever able to cry?
Are your tearducts normal?
Do you get choked up?
Appreciating you,
tt
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Hi tt
First, is there anything I can do to help your avatar show?
About crying and me, the last time I cried was 2 years after the estrangement from my daughter and the children. I think that that time period made it final and irreversible. I cried all day, driving, in and out of 5 stores and back home.
Had a DR. app't next day, he put me on Zoloft and I was as high as a kite.
I have not cried since.
Since seeing the therapist I have ½ choked up over 3 things, had a thumpity heart when I felt a connection with someone, and felt annpyance/anger to someone and spoke my mind. Whether crying will resume remains to be seen.
Would your cousin resent it if you asked her why?
Love
Iz
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Hi Iz,
I think maybe I am saying that, sometimes, too much time is spent on describing the N ( makes me feel that Ns are getting CREDIT for being so cruel) when we all know what they do. If we want to know "the worst things" we could start a thread on it, but mainly I feel this Board is to discuss ourselves, our faults, our improvements, our sliding back, our coming forth again, and what we are learning about ourselves -- what quality we were missing to have allowed this to happen.
I don't know exactly what it is that drives a voiceless one to tell and retell their story. However, observation of myself and others on the board is that there is something therapeutic about the retelling of it. That need lasted in me for about six years. The best I could come up with was that my 'indoctrination' took place the first six years of my life. So maybe the harm done takes a like amount of time to undo with a large chunk of it spent telling and retelling the story. I personally think it's part of the grieving process. The challenge is for us not to get 'stuck' in the telling. I think that is the point you were making and a milestone you are celebrating. I celebrate with you 8) 8) 8).
When the harm begins at the cradle, it can't be framed with, what quality we were missing. Again, I think we're on the same page. Just wanted to say that a child is incapable of measuring qualities they may or may not have. Plus they are powerless.
I hope my comments fall to the 'good discussion' side of the coin.
tt
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Hi tt
Your post has merit because it is written positively.
First. the child in the cradle. I agree. The child is powerless and innocent. I posted somewhere that I read an article that the overly sensitive are likely born missing a 'gene' or something so they can differ greatly from siblings. I was the sensitive one out of the 5. So at this time, all these years later as I struggle for my voice, I am now aware that I was different for a reason and was affected negativley for a reason and that was likely it, so I can work on not being overly sensitive. If I knew back when I was, say in 20s or 30s or 40s , what I know now, I might have had a diffrent outlook for more years than I will now.
Also if parents are aware (as mine were NOT) then there certainly must be a way to help the child from a far younger age.
OK Do you tell and retell your story to the same person? When I left the N, 5 years ago after 4 years of hell, all I could do was talk about all the horrific things he did. It seemed I couldn't shut up and I don't think anyone even understood, because they didn't understand N-ism. I finally shut up and found a therapist. They are accustomed to this talk. it was through that, that I was able to never mention him outside anymore. She said it would take about 2 years before I would feel totally different than right then. It took 2½ .
The challenge is for us not to get 'stuck' in the telling. I think that is the point you were making and a milestone you are celebrating. I celebrate with you. 8) 8) 8)
Yes I unstuck myself after 2 years and now it is older history than when I was born. Something made me realize that I was overdoing it--was I looking for sympathy? was I looking for a hit-man? was I filled with self-pity?
Anything I post here are my own experiences and opinions and nothing is carved in stone.
As well, I realized I didn't love him, because he didn't exist. He disappeared in a puff of smoke when the mask fell off. I didn't have much to grieve. I'm sure everyone is different, and we are entitled to take whatever amount of time it takes.
I see this Board as a place, after the fact, to regain ourselves and our voice, without constant repetitions of the harm caused. Now that we have the Story Board, it works out fine.
That you tt
Take Care
Am off to do my laundry!
Love
Izzy
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Hi Iz,
I PM'ed you asking for help with my avatar. I got the notion that I wanted to put my photo up for a brief time. I loved it a while back when some of the others here put theirs up. I still remember them. But yes, I do need help putting up an avatar. Haven't chosen one yet. I know squat about doing it and couldn't find the directions you gave a while back on another post. PM me when you find a moment.
Regards,
tt
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Regarding talking about "N" over and over again to the same or many people...well, I often mention things about what happened with the dysfunctional people in my life, but I didn't actually "talk about" the entire specifics, until someone put up the "MY STORY" board. I posted it there, thinking maybe someone could identify with the behaviors. I then removed it, because I got very little response that it was doing any good at all, and it seemed to just be irritating certain people, which was not my heart in the matter at all.
The people of my past know what they did, know that it was wrong, but also have some deeply ingraiined perceptions or mindsets, that disable them from truly changing the behaviors. Sadly, this prohibits any form of reconciliation, but instead, provokes projection and rejection. After having studied Psychology, I understand this a lot better, which is why I will now disengage from conflict should someone with these same problems, decide to scapegoat me. With dysfunctional people, it's a lose-lose situation every time.
The hard part comes when one is triggered and the old feelings and longings for people start to come back. It's like a child who wants a certain toy he saw on tv. His friends have it, people on the commercial have it, he thinks he's NOTHING without it, so he MUST have it too.
When his parents tell him "no" a grand FIT ensues on the child's part, and he either tries to cooerce the parent to buy him the toy, figures out a way to get that toy, gives up on the toy and sets his eyes on a different object, or tells himself that the toy is not worth having. "Black n White thinking is what I'm talking about in this last part (telll self toy is not worth having...painting it as UNDESIREABLE)
Rather than tell myself that some relationships are not something I wanted, because the people are just all bad, I usually try to remember their good points, but forgive the bad ones, knowing that each human has both good and bad in them, and realizing that each person really does have a right to live life how they choose to. I no longer DEMAND to have the "toy" in my possession.
As far as talking to only 1 person about things, I've had counselors for that. My counselors have basically told me that I need to stay away from controlling people, who live their lives through passive-aggressive tendencies, overtly or covertly controlling others, due to feeling out of control in their own lives, and that I need to also beware of the codependent and dependent habits in myself.
I could probably write a book on some of the times in my life that were deeply painful, but like some others on this board, unless a human mind is totally drugged, the pain that comes from rehashing the past, can often destroy a person; especially if the past relationship was one of promises never fulfilled with people who have no intention of ever working together to repair the damage and create new dreams.
It just makes more sense to "let sleeping dogs lie" as the saying goes, or let "the dead bury their own dead" as the Bible says.
~Just some thoughts
RM
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Good strong thinking, RM.
And you deserve some new toys.
Or to make your own never-before-invented toys.
Or to see that all of life is play and work, play and work.
And sing.
Hops
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Beautiful comments, Shunned!!
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Shunned, Your last words made me remember this old saying.... We each have two wolves inside of us. One that helps us and one that destroys us. Which one will survive? The one you FEED! I do think that if we relive the trauma over and over we somehow increase its shelf life. It has power to keep hurting us. I think the past is only valuable for reference and orientation to the good and the healthy and the things that move us forward. There is great power in what you said about THEN/NOW. We must live in the now. In the now is healing and life and potential. There is no potential in the past. Just a thot.....
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Good thoughts for me too, thanks to all.
I think that telling your story eloquently and in detail, even if it's not in one session, is enormously healing.
But I also think that repeating core grievances over and over might, for some people, serve to narrow their view of life. I sometimes realize that I can bore myself with emotional exquisiteness.
It's like looking in a mirror. Do I see a whole person, full of spiritual and cellular vitality? Or do I only see a flapping wound with a name?
I don't even know that it's a choice. But when I can be present in the present, conscious, I want to expand my view. (The thing is how extraordinary and amazing the planet is, the details of life are, the meanings I can choose, the magic, the mysteries, the discoveries--yegods, thousands a day--the opportunities to reflect/connect, the SURPRISE of existence. I can get drunk on wonder at the drop of a hat. But I lose it when I am too wound-focused.)
love,
Hops
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Hops....
You and CB are on a roll today, aren't ya, lol?