Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lynn on May 10, 2004, 05:27:01 PM
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Hi friends,
Recently I split with my NH of many years. We have two teenaged kids. They now live with me.
My daughter (16) has many N-characteristics. On the outside she is friendly and outgoing. She smiles lots. Does well in school. Her teachers like her. She has friends. At home, she shows an N-side I've seen before. Her language. Her interaction with others. She states that she cares first and foremost about herself and does not think about others. If others have a problem, they can fix it. She claims to have zero emotional reaction to others. The behavior that results is harsh, cool, abrasive.
I know that she did not have a choice to live in our household. The behaviors she observed in her dad and me( by staying) certainly taught her many things. I believe that children of an N-household have trouble with trust and with relationships.
Here's my question. How best to help my daughter? I ache for her isolation, for her lack of connection to others. I hope that I have divorced early enough that I can show her love and a trustworthy relationship. At the same time, I hear and feel these harsh words and feelings coming from her to me. She sounds and acts like an N.
That throws me into a bit of confusion. I don't know whether to let things go because I understand the underlying hurt feelings.... or whether I should not let her get away with the mean behavior.
It's so weird, because the N-behavior makes me confused. I suppose I have not been out of the NH relationship long enough to develop new ways of acting and reacting. It surprises me that I get more emotional than I expect. I start apologizing for mistakes. It's pathetic really.
I love my daughter and need your advice on ways to help her and to better my relationship with her.
Thank you,
lynn
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Hi lynn,
What you say makes a lot of sense to me, and I'm sorry you're seeing this in your daughter. I'd really strongly recommend Humanizing the Narcissistic Form. It's a bit technical, but it goes into some detail about how Narcissists are created, from early childhood on. It talks about the needs that aren't met that cause the Narcissist to develop. Maybe in understanding this, you may be able to see what needs may not have been met for her while growing up with an N father. That may help.
I'd definitely recommend therapy as well. Even if she is doing seemingly well. Who knows, maybe this is just her way of coping and she'll heal over time - away from the negative influence of an N. But it couldn't hurt to seek therapy, I guess. Especially if you can find a therapist that has some experience with N's.
Good luck,
Wildflower
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Oops.
It's called Humanizing the Narcissistic Style :wink: The author is Stephen M. Johnson.
Wildflower
P.S. - My therapist recommended this to help me understand my dad.
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Hi Wildflower,
Thanks for the book name. I'll look it up. I appreciate the title and author.
You know, she is a wonderful person. She's not N-like all the time.... I am tuned into N-ness more than I have been in the past.
Any other suggestions on ways to help a daughter who had an N-dad?
lynn
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Hi lynn,
You know, she is a wonderful person. She's not N-like all the time.... I am tuned into N-ness more than I have been in the past.
I bet she is. I just want to say that. Even if she's just going through yucky teenager stuff, I think it's great that you're trying to understand her - and to do what you can to counter the effects of an N in her life. In your life.
It's so weird, because the N-behavior makes me confused. I suppose I have not been out of the NH relationship long enough to develop new ways of acting and reacting. It surprises me that I get more emotional than I expect. I start apologizing for mistakes. It's pathetic really.
It's not pathetic to be going through this very disorienting time. It'd be disorienting if it were just a divorce...but it's a divorce from an N you were married to for a long time. Reality feels weird when you're away from it for a long time.
Have you talked with her about how she's dealing with the divorce? Have you shown your daughter your emotional side?
Hang in there.
hugs,
Wildflower
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Hi Lynn,
My guess is that your daughter is just as confused as you are right now with the N behaviour of her father, the separation and with all the usual growing up teenage stuff.
Is it fair to say that the N traits that you are seeing in her are reserved for just you and are not expressed outside the home?
My middle daughter told me not that long ago that when she was about 15-16 (10 years ago) she used to blame me entirely for the disharmony in our household. She said she used to think that I was the only one that could do something about it (which was true) and I didn't and she hated me for that.
Different story today of-course, hindsight armed with knowledge of NPD and time makes things a lot clearer. How receptive is she to your explanations (if any) of N behaviour?
My middle daughter is/was very receptive, the older one a little less so, and my son doesn't want to know about the technicalities, he can accept the faults in his father without an explanation. To each his own.
All you can do is keep being the supportive, loving Mum/Mom that you are and don't be afraid to guide her in the right direction if you can see her being influenced by your H. At 16, you can still have a say about any unacceptable behaviour she shows towards you but beware that her interpretation skills may be a little skewed.
Best Wishes,
Karin
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Hi Lynn -
I am sorry that I don't have any helpful advice on this subject. But I just wanted to tell you that we are all rooting for you here. I know you are going through such a hard time and my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.
Would she consider family therapy? You and her together?
Blessings,
Michelle
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Wildflower, Karin, Michelle,
Thanks for the support. I appreciate your responses so much! :)
What do you think... is it okay to address the mean behavior? When I do, the situation tends to spiral in those situations... you know what I mean.
I vacillate between wanting to model for her love and understanding... and ignoring so much of the outburst that I feel doormat-like.
Granted, there's an awful lot happening in our lives right now. I suppose that given the situation, we manage the best we can.
In reflecting back on a list posted a while back about what the biggest struggle is.... earlier I said that loneliness was a big one for me.... I'd have to say that now I am struggling with meaning of life.
Thanks for listening/
Your friend,
lynn
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Hi there Lynn,
Sounds like some pretty good advice above. Just wanted to throw in a handy Mom-ism that we may have left behind in the preschool cubbies:
that is to calmly say to your daughter "How would YOU feel if your friend thought/said that about you?"... might help for those daily doses of teenitis. Good luck! Seeker
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My daughter (16) has many N-characteristics. On the outside she is friendly and outgoing. She smiles lots. Does well in school. Her teachers like her. She has friends. At home, she shows an N-side I've seen before. Her language. Her interaction with others. She states that she cares first and foremost about herself and does not think about others. If others have a problem, they can fix it. She claims to have zero emotional reaction to others. The behavior that results is harsh, cool, abrasive.
Teenagers are highly narcissistic. Teenage narcissism isn't necessarily an indication of adult N-hood. She is naturally trying on different characteristics. She probably feels safe enough with you to show you her dark side. I wouldn't take her words at face value. I would take them more as a projection that she feels she is now left to solve her own problems because of the marital breakup, and that her father(?) feels zero emotional reaction to her. I don't know if that's wildly inaccurate but that's what I get from it.
Here's my question. How best to help my daughter? I ache for her isolation, for her lack of connection to others. I hope that I have divorced early enough that I can show her love and a trustworthy relationship. At the same time, I hear and feel these harsh words and feelings coming from her to me. She sounds and acts like an N.
It's complicated. A teenage girl is often hard on her mother no matter what. I would read about teenagers, about communicating with them, and how to deal with them. It's not going to be easy because she is testing you for boundaries, to see if you'll set limits, or whether you will just fall apart and/or lose your temper. She wants to see whether you're weak or whether you are consistently firm but compassionate. Teenagers can be really obnoxious, mean, etc. If she's being mean to you, obviously that's intolerable. If she's saying mean things about others, that's another story. She is probably sending you a message about her own feelings.
bunny
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Hiya Lynn, some questions as ever from me, trying to get a picture of the situation…I haven’t got a good picture right now and I’m too clouded by my own past experiences to see yours clearly. So please bear this in mind when I ask! I’ve taken parts of your post out of order….
On the outside she is friendly and outgoing. She smiles lots. Does well in school. Her teachers like her. She has friends.
I ache for her isolation, for her lack of connection to others.
Are you sure that she is isolated? Or is that your perception…or does she seem isolated from you?
She states that she cares first and foremost about herself and does not think about others. If others have a problem, they can fix it. She claims to have zero emotional reaction to others.
I picked this out because it’s the ‘meatiest’ part of how you describe her n-ness (do you want to talk about examples of her behaviour?). It sounds to me like a defence against letting out a load of emotions being held inside. Sixteen year olds aren’t quite adults and don’t necessarily say what they mean. I wonder …. If this was me, I’d be worried that following the divorce, mother is obviously upset and needs support and I’m not sure I want to be the one who provides it, just in case mother should ever ask me. So I’d perhaps close down so that mother’s emotions don’t upset me even more than I already am. Does that make any sense?
I hope that I have divorced early enough that I can show her love and a trustworthy relationship.
Um! She still has two parents and maybe she doesn’t want to admit in any way to you that she ‘sides’ with either of you. So again, I would close down and keep my emotions to myself…discussing them might mean ‘taking sides’ in talking about why I feel bad. I can’t now get too close to mummy because that will be betraying daddy (wow! Where did that come from P?)
I don't know whether to let things go because I understand the underlying hurt feelings.... or whether I should not let her get away with the mean behavior.
Rrrrmmmm….the last thing I would want would be for my mother to say she understood how I felt without me expressly talking about it (but you’re not my mother!). However, her feelings may be quite complex and could surprise you? But no, if you let her get away with mean behaviour …. I would think my mother didn’t care about me (she let’s me do what I want so she can’t care).
Well, I don’t know if there’s anything in that for you? Remember…it’s about me, not you or your daughter. Bunny gives the best advice! Best wishes, P
PS. Hey, enough about your daughter...how are you getting on? Are you okay? Have you got other people to confide in or just chat to about how you feel these days?
PPS Just saw you mention the meaning of life...it's whatever you want it to be - which is both scary and liberating...but how much freedom to shape our own lives can we cope with? Me? Not so much! :?
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Thanks to bunny, wildflower, portia, seeker, michelle, guest for your kind words and for taking the time to reply to my post.
Portia, you asked some questions and I'd like to repond to. My sense of my daughter's isolation comes from several places.... but mostly it comes from what she tells me. She keeps a significant emotional distance from her friends. She says that she does not want to be close to anyone. I've seen her be pretty harsh with her friends... although that happens only sometimes. Her emotional distance sometimes makes her very sad. She often talks about being lonely.
My worry is how this whole N thing develops. I listen to all of you talk about you N moms.... what were those N moms like when they were 16? Were they born with those N personality qualities (My daughter was born strong willed and independent)... or could someone have done something to help them when THEY were 16? When does a person turn the corner of no return... from an individual with a broad range of emotions... to an individual lacking empathy? You see, that is what is most missing from my daughters interactions with friends. She lacks empathy and thinks first and foremost about how a situation will benefit her. Her language and style are quite similar to her dad's.
You suggest that her zero emotion level could be a deference against letting out a load of emotions being held inside. I'd guess this hits the nail on the head. She probably does have an immense number of feelings inside and you're right, this is a very likely response.
One day is good. The next is bad. I wrote this original post on a difficult day. My perception could be skewed. I'm not in a good place right now. My worries about the future cloud my thinking. On the other hand, it is surprising to me that I don't miss my H at all. There have been no times when I catch myself missing his company. Occassionally I miss the financial security he provided, but so far, I haven't missed him personally.
It really hard portia. I'm treading water and my head is above the waterlevel most of the time.... but it's uncomfortably close.
lynn
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Hey Lynn:
I don't miss my H at all
Okay that's not completely all wonderful but wow, it sounds better than months/years of wrenching grief, I'm so glad you don't, that's got to be for the best! Good for you.
Thanks for explaining more about your daughter. I see what you mean now. Can I ask, and I am probing :roll: have there been examples of her showing empathy/sadness over the years? Crying at sad films? Being sad on the death of a pet? Being sad for another person in distress? Or being happy for someone else's happiness? Oh and I guess she's not bothered with dating yet? Maybe that's on the horizon...ooo..maybe I should ask if she likes boys (or girls)? I'm painfully frank about such things, bull in a china shop! (but wouldn't suggest you are, no)
This might sound daft (it does!) but maybe you could try going to see a sad film together, or talk about a sad event....when you feel up to it.
You know, in some ways I wonder if it's not dangerous for me to talk like this. It's only me putting out ideas...and I know very little...I'm okay coming up with ideas that other people can moderate/modify...
in the meantime, when are you taking up salsa dancing? I tried it ages ago- quite tricky! - but great fun, especially in a beginner class where everyone is so nervous and desperate to be glamoroso. I'm joking, just want you to look after yourself. P
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Lynn,
I haven't met your daughter so I don't know how cold and unfeeling she appears to be, but she *sounds* like a typical teenage girl. However, I haven't seen her in action, maybe she is clinically depressed and not just being a teenager. I wouldn't assume that she has no empathy. It isn't well developed at this age. She is very immature still.
There is also a thing called "identification with the aggressor" where the child behaves like the more dominant (sometimes abusive) parent. That seems safer and more "in control" to them than identifying with the submissive parent.
The best thing you can do for her is (1) get help for yourself and (2) read all you can about communicating with and understanding teenagers. They aren't like us!
bunny
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Hi lynn,
I'm afraid I might be complicating things a bit here, but I just wanted to put this out there:
My worry is how this whole N thing develops. I listen to all of you talk about you N moms.... what were those N moms like when they were 16? Were they born with those N personality qualities (My daughter was born strong willed and independent)... or could someone have done something to help them when THEY were 16? When does a person turn the corner of no return... from an individual with a broad range of emotions... to an individual lacking empathy? You see, that is what is most missing from my daughters interactions with friends. She lacks empathy and thinks first and foremost about how a situation will benefit her. Her language and style are quite similar to her dad's.
You suggest that her zero emotion level could be a deference against letting out a load of emotions being held inside. I'd guess this hits the nail on the head. She probably does have an immense number of feelings inside and you're right, this is a very likely response.
One day is good. The next is bad. I wrote this original post on a difficult day. My perception could be skewed. I'm not in a good place right now. My worries about the future cloud my thinking. On the other hand, it is surprising to me that I don't miss my H at all. There have been no times when I catch myself missing his company. Occassionally I miss the financial security he provided, but so far, I haven't missed him personally.
Regarding how N's develop, seriously. Read the Humanizing the Narcissistic Style book - at least, the first couple of chapters. Not only does this book talk about healing the N style (at least, as I understand it), it talks about the early years of N's. The book suggests that it's not something you're born with but rather the result of unmet needs during critical development years. I've also read that early childhood and the teenage years share some similar important N-related characteristics/needs.
That said, I completely agree with bunny about reading up on teenagers and getting help for yourself during this difficult time (even though you don't miss your H at this time). My mom made the mistake of jumping to conclusions about why I was behaving the way I was - instead of trying to understand how I may have been having healthy/normal reactions to difficult situations. Does that make sense?
I'd also like to (carefully) point out that you have often remarked on your own ... stable emotions? Is it possible that your daughter's distance is partly derived from your H, and partly derived from you? That could be hard to see/take, and I'm only talking from the outside...from what you've said. But if there's any merit at all to what I'm saying, then perhaps you could identify with her more ... instead of approaching her as someone completely different from you (though, again, as bunny says, they're not like us :lol: ).
Anyway, hang in there lynn.
hugs,
Wildflower
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Thanks to everybody for your candid observations and comments. I listen to your thoughts and ideas and consider what you say. I appreciate your honesty and suggestions. Sometimes its hard to have perspective when you are standing in the middle.
lynn
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Lynn,
I haven't been able to read through all of the posts because Ive only got a small period of "break" while while taking care of my kids so please forgive if it's already been said. I wanted to offer my 'gut reaction' to what may be going on here. I have read that there are certain normal N times in a person's life. One being infancy and the other, adolescence.
Now, I can certainly understand and empathize your fears that your daughter is becoming N like her dad but from what I have read, I certainly wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Like I said, this is a gut reaction so may be a tad un scientific. Your daughter is going through an enormously challenging time right now with the divorce of her dad plus when you add on adolescence, wham!!! :!: The fact that she acts in non N ways outside of the home further makes me think that she can definately be 'healed' of this period in her life.
My oldest daughter went through a similar phase when we moved cross country away from everyone she had come to know and love. Granted, she was only five, but there are still similarities. Her personality COMPLETELY changed and I stressed out to the point of full fledged panic that she was ADHD, a problem child, etc. Like your daughter, she challenged all of the rules and boundaries. And, like you, I knew that she was going through a tough time and gave her more leeway, not sure of how much to give and how much to not tolerate. She got really out of control. She developed selective mutism, refused to follow all of the rules, etc. I tried tightening up the reigns with her to the extreme and the behaviour didnt' stop. In fact, got worse. Finally, I just gave in to my heart and tried to feel what she was feeling. Tried to see life through her eyes and realized that she was just a frightened girl trying to make sense of the disorder going on around her. So I gave her extra love. Had her sleep with me whenever she wanted, hugged her, held her for long stretches of time, kissed her. Lavished her with affection and love. But I also maintained the boundaries. The only difference being that the boundaries were gently told. Nothing was a punishment as her inner sorrow I felt was enough at that point. Boundaries were enforced but love was above all emphasized. Sure enough, she blossomed and grew out of that phase.
You may feel that there is little connection between a five year old and your daughter. But I see similarities. I think that, on top of being a normal teenager with all those hormones sloshing around, trying to make sense of a changing body and emotions, she also has to deal with the divorce of her father. I definately would not take this time as indicative of how she will end up being in the future.
She states that she cares first and foremost about herself and does not think about others. If others have a problem, they can fix it. She claims to have zero emotional reaction to others. The behavior that results is harsh, cool, abrasive.
This may be a defense reaction to what is going on in her life. Her way of protecting her fragile self right now. She may, simply be unable to deal with anything else at this point. Her plate is more than full. Take care,
-E
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Hi Lynn,
I remember something else that I became aware of as my kids and I were also going through those awful months after our separation.
I could see that they were starting to look after me and stay home more, so I had to stress to them that they weren't responsible for me.
I don't think I was looking for their comfort, they took it upon themselves to provide it and as soon as I realised what was happening I made sure to let them know that they should not feel as though that was their job. A burden was lifted from their shoulders.
The most obvious things still need to be said sometimes, just so there's no misunderstandings. It's not the same situation here with you Lynn; your daughter is retreating from you but it may not be for the reasons you think.
You'll get through this Lynn, you're not alone.
Karin.
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Thanks el and karin,
for sharing your stories. It is illuminating to hear how someone else handled their experience. I admire both of you for making it through a difficult situation with your daughters. It's hard to know where normal teenager ends and troubled teenager begins. Especially when "normal" doesn't necessarily include a household with an N dad and a divorce!
I appreciate your support. It helps knowing that there are folks who will give what they can, share what they can. Thank you to everyone who responded. this board is really helpful to me.
lynn