Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dr. Richard Grossman on September 20, 2007, 02:15:14 PM
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Hi everyone,
For those of you who don’t know, a dear friend of mine, Rabbi Pollock, asks me to speak (briefly) at services every year at holiday time. This year’s theme is: “What dare we hope?”
When I was 13, my ninth grade social studies teacher, Mr. Hahn, sent our class home one day with the following assignment: ask one of your parents what historical figure, dead or alive, had the greatest influence on their life. When the votes were tallied the next day, Jesus narrowly beat out John Kennedy, with Abe Lincoln finishing a distant third. My mother’s choice, Friedrich Nietzsche, received no additional votes. The choice did, however, prompt a half pitying, half affectionate laugh from Mr. Hahn. You see, I already had a reputation as being different and I suppose a little tortured. Mr. Hahn gave me the same mixed laugh when he handed back a test on which I had incorrectly answered the question: Whom was the colony of Jamestown named after? I hadn’t a clue—I had probably spent that class staring into the abyss, with the abyss staring back at me—so I wrote the name of the only James I knew, figuring it would be a long shot. That would be Henry.
My mother’s sage, Nietzsche, said that “hope is the worst of all evils, for it prolongs the torment of man.” I find that a bit hyperbolic, but I must confess, like my mother, I do view hope with some suspicion. Hope springs eternal, as evolutionary psychologists see it, not necessarily because the future is bright, but because we are genetically programmed to see it as bright. If we didn’t see the world as bright, it would be hard to get out of bed in the morning, and therefore, exceedingly difficult to attract a mate. Without a mate, of course, our genes would not be passed on. Having attracted a mate, and having had a child and passed my genes on, sometimes I wonder, as many middle-aged and older people do: isn’t it time, perhaps, to go back to bed? Really, it’s a thought... By the way if you feel hopeful, because you think hopeful people view the world more realistically then non-hopeful people, there are a number of studies in the psychological literature that suggest just the opposite. These studies say that hopefulness and happiness both require you to unconsciously spin the world in overly positive and often, self-deceiving, ways.
So what dare I hope? For nothing grand, I’m afraid. The grand things I actually try to do something about to the best of my ability, however limited that is. World peace and the end of hunger may come, and I’ll be very happy if they do, but I’m not going to torture myself hoping for them. No, I limit my Nietzschean torment to little selfish things. Like…I hope someday my daughter, Micaela, has the tattoo on her leg—which sometimes reminds me of Guernica turned on end—removed, so I don’t have to keep looking at her with a hand over one eye. I hope one of my three 10-minute plays, all of which received honorable mentions in prior Boston Theater Marathons, is produced this year. What fun that would be! And, finally, a big selfish one: I hope Hildy stays healthy. For that hope, I’m willing to endure a lifetime of torment—such is the nature of love.
Have a good year!
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Richard,
This is as wonderful as (no, even more than) last year's.
Thank you for sharing it.
I think I'll start looking at my daughter with a bag over my head.
:lol:
Happiest Holidays to you and yourn,
Hops
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Very enjoyable read, Dr. G.
I'm afraid I'm inclined to agree with Nietzsche, regarding hope.
On the other hand.....
new hopes....
and mistakes....
are quite another matter: )
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Hi Dr. G.,
Hoped you would share it and you did! Thank you.
tt
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Dr. Grossman:
Thank you for sharing your personal story. Hope is such a critical and integral issue when dealing with NPD abuse.
I believe Nietzsche also said, “The miserable have no other medicine but only hope.”
With the realization that your parents or significant other is NPD and incapable of the kind of loving, healthy relationship you desire, the “medicine” is taken away and reality sets in.
It seems to me hope presupposes a significant, tragic situation that generally involves serious suffering Unlike optimism and wishful thinking, hope entails squarely facing the reality of the tragic situation.
Conditions that are common byproducts of an NPD upbringing such as chronic anxiety, depression and addictions erode the very health and sap the energy needed to develop the path of action required to maintain hope.
As Beck indicated through his Hopelessness Scale experiment, a person’s capacity for hope is often tied to their level of locus of control. Those who grew up in NPD households recognize that their locus of control was nearly zero as the NPD parent demanded complete control from those around them. Since the NPD parent would never acknowledge their life situations or circumstances were due to their own behavior, but instead should be blamed on everyone and everything else around them, it is understandable that the victims of NPDs feel enormous helplessness.
Furthermore, those who are not very hopeful (such as those, like myself, who are diagnosed with depression that is characterized with hopelessness), are criticized for not possessing this virtue. After all, it is assumed everyone should be hopeful about life, about the future. It is assumed that this hopefulness is an inherent trait, one that everyone possesses. However, I maintain that a person’s level of hopefulness can be directly tied to the reality of their life circumstances. It is far easier to maintain a high level of hopefulness when facing a serious situation if one’s life includes circumstances in which hopefulness led to positive outcomes. But when hopefulness does not lead to positive outcomes, but rather negative outcomes (such as the reality that you cannot have a loving relationship with an NPD parent), it is far more difficult, if not impossible, to maintain a strong sense of hope.
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Sunblue,
That's a great post!
I used have very little hope. After I met my husband, though, I think I managed to kind of 'borrow' his positive life experiences to help me see things in a more positive way, because I didn't have enough of my own, as my NMum was an expert at squashing any reason for hope.
I've never seen it like that before, but I think now that this was how I turned my past around, gradually.
Janet
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Dear Dr G,
Much to ponder in this. Who is Hildy,if you don't mind my asking? Ami
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Yesterday morning into my inbox came one of those inspirational spam emails. This one was about breast cancer and the hope for finding a cure. There were poems and illustrations. The mail ended with a photo of a candle (something called a "cancer candle") on which was inscribed the phrase, "Hope is the Denial of Reality."
I had to look three times. To me, denial of reality is not a positive thing. It was really hard for me to understand how for another it could be a good thing.
Thanks for sharing your speech Dr. G. As you can see it had a bit of synchronicity effect for me.
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If I get busy with compassion, I don't have time to hope.
thankfully.
Hops
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I love the way you write Richard. You are so natural and so good at putting together a story with feeling and humor. It was pleasure reading all your essays, and now this letter. Though I've got to say, with respect to the subject matter, I don't think Tony Robbins would ask you to speak at any of his seminars any time soon, lol.
Seriously though, I suspect that, like myself, many of us perceive the term `hope' differently. (I hope so anyway, because to give a `there is no hope' kind of speech at a religious service might not go down very well, lol.)
How do you define `hope' personally, Richard? I get the sense that what you are referring to , by my frame of reference, is perhaps `blind faith' or `unrealistic expectations'? But I'd like to hear what you mean from you, if you'd care to explain it.
Personally, I don't identify with the` blind faith' type of hope at all, which is why I am agnostic rather than a believer, and also why I don't jump off cliff tops. But I have had really good results in my life when I `visualise' my hopes, base them on realistic expectations, and work hard to acheive them with a generally positive attitude. I think this is a lot to do with my Norman Vincent Peale Indocrination, but its really worked for me.
For example, just over 5 years ago, I had no money to my name, I was a `battered woman' in a relationship with a Narcissist (more likely a psychopath), and I had very low self esteem. I had a long history of poor relationships, general life instability, childhood abuse, and nothing much to base any positivity upon. But I chose to be positive anyway, and work my way through my life problems.
But now, Richard, I run a business that I created from the ground up myself, making a decent living , most of my work is fullfilling and creative, and I am engaged to a good man. I turned my life around using hope, but in the way i described above: setting realistic expectations, visualizing my hopes, and working towards them with a positive attitude.
If it wasn't for my personal experiences, I'd probably otherwise just go along with what you wrote. Of course, there is a good chance we totally agree with one another, as the term `hope 'has different meanings for each one of us.
Anyway, thank you so much for posting an interesting topic for discussion, and for getting me thinking. I really appreciate it, and all the best!
X Bella
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Dr. Grossman,
I adore your speech on so many levels. The first is that it is succinct and concise, yet comprehensible on so many levels. Having been told that the outcome in life is to have to deal with unending torment, I also adored Nietzsche throughout college and beyond. I quoted aphorisms and wrote them in my notebooks. I was sure no one could understand my genius. Rather silly of me... but I was taught that I was more special than others and so...
I spent my first years in my job feeling unappreciated. How could they not see how unique I was and how lucky they were to have me? I was so cavalier...
Then I got to hit my bottom and see what life was really about. And now, like you pointed out in your speech, my wishes for life are quite different. I too hope for simple comforts. I want my children to be happy. I would like to find a job in my field. I want to catch a garter snake and keep it for a day or two, in spite of my husband's vehemence that I not do so. My daughter doesn't have a real tattoo, yet, but, judging by her worship of Angelina Jolie and the amount of fake tattoos we use... I may have your same desire in the future... to remove some travesty from her skin. I am making her wait until she is 8 before she gets a permanent tattoo. And a few more years for the motorcycle as well.
I hope your speech was appreciated by the audience as much as it was here. Thank you so much for sharing it with us.
R/Beth
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judging by her worship of Angelina Jolie and the amount of fake tattoos we use... I may have your same desire in the future... I am making her wait until she is 8 before she gets a permanent tattoo. And a few more years for the motorcycle as well.
LOL... very funny gratitude, lol....
Ummmm.... you were kidding, right, lol?
:shock: Right?
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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There are so many profound ideas on this thread. I have been having a hard time understanding it ,emotionally.
I had stopped maturing at 14. I may have known that it was the simple things in life that make you happy and that this is all that you can "expect", at 14. Now, I have been so lost in a fog for so long that I don't know much of anything.
I remember the times that I was really happy. They were when I felt whole inside --connected to my feelings. That should not be so hard to recover.
I have so many blessings right under my feet. It is my "receiver" that has to change in order to embrace them Ami
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Dr. Grossman,
What an honor to be asked to give this address every year! Thank you for sharing it with us.
I've thought alot recently about the energy behind pessimism and optimism. It seems to be the underlying current of a lot of the posts on the board and may even be the root of a lot of the tension that we see from time to time. As in almost every other part of my life, I am learning to let people be who they are. It's okay.
The hopefulness that I have about life seems to be a kind of background noise that I can't make go away. It seems to be as much a part of who I am as is the suspicion that drives someone else. I have never not been able to get out of bed in the morning. I am not always cheerful, and I seem to frequently hit the wall in pain, but it seems that hope runs through my veins.
Love
CB
Dear CB,
I just wanted to say that you worded this so beautifully, and I also enjoyed hearing your thoughts about pessimism versus optimism, and how it may contribute to board tensions. Something that struck me when i read your post, as well as Janet's, is that we are very actively creative people. There seems to be a connection somehow between optomism, hope, visualization, and producing `art' perhaps? I could especially relate to your phrase `hope running through your veins'. Thats how I feel too.
Love Bella
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Hi Dr. G. and all,
I'm wondering if Nietzsche had voice? He certainly was and is heard even now through his writing, but was that equal to having voice as we understand it here? Was he an optimist or a pessimist? Are one's written words equivalent to their spoken word with both translating as voice. CB, what do you think?
it seems that hope runs through my veins.
This comes closest to describing how I feel about hope. I'm grateful to have it from whatever its source.
tt
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for your thoughtful responses to my brief talk. Here are some more thoughts based on your comments/questions:
Ami: "Who is Hildy,if you don't mind my asking?"
Hildy is my wife.
Sunblue: "However, I maintain that a person’s level of hopefulness can be directly tied to the reality of their life circumstances."
I think this is for the most part, true. But—1) There are people who have been through horrific experiences—terrible families (even narcissistic!), holocaust/genocide, crippling illnesses, who somehow remain hopeful and positive., and 2) in situations where there are identical twins raised apart, if one twin has experienced major depression, the odds are 50% that the other has too. The simplest explanation for these findings is that there is a biological factor in happiness/hopefulness that plays a significant role in how we process our experience of the world.
Bean: " thank you for sharing that (the essay). I wonder if this resonates with many? it seems such an unpopular concept, to give up hope"
If you are lucky enough to have had positive life experiences, and the biology of hope, it probably won’t resonate at all. If you’ve had one, but not the other, maybe it will resonate a little!
Bella: "How do you define `hope' personally, Richard? I get the sense that what you are referring to , by my frame of reference, is perhaps `blind faith' or `unrealistic expectations'? But I'd like to hear what you mean from you, if you'd care to explain it."
I define hope as a pleasing feeling of optimism that something I wish for will happen in the future. I think there is a wide continuum of unrealistic to realistic hopes, and everyone has their own personal measure of this. I’m referring to my own personal measure, which is pretty stringent—e.g. the reason I’m hopeful that one of my plays will be accepted this years is that the Artistic Director wrote me that a play I submitted was one of her favorites—but the judges thought it was too long. So, I’ve cut it down.
Bella again: "setting realistic expectations, visualizing my hopes, and working towards them with a positive attitude."
I think this is great! Congratulations on the business and your pending marriage!
CB123: "The hopefulness that I have about life seems to be a kind of background noise that I can't make go away. It seems to be as much a part of who I am as is the suspicion that drives someone else."
Hmmm…a touch of lucky biology here?!!! Again, I think shared by most people…e.g. see teartracks' last post.
Gratitude28: "I am making her wait until she is 8 before she gets a permanent tattoo."
I’m wondering with Lighter: this is humor right?!!! Actually, my wife and a number of other women our age kind of like my daughter’s tattoo. Could this be a father thing?
Teartracks: I'm wondering if Nietzsche had voice? He certainly was and is heard even now through his writing, but was that equal to having voice as we understand it here? Was he an optimist or a pessimist? Are one's written words equivalent to their spoken word with both translating as voice.
Good questions. Here’s the wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche
Best to everyone,
Richard
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Ahhhh... Dr. G.
Forgive me for being so obtuse, up to this point, but....
it honestly never occurred to me that there was a man behind the curtain keeping up with the board.....
but of course you are.
::whispering::
It's your board....
and I'm so glad it's here.
::resisting urge to picture self with little white ears, whiskers and pink paws::
Please.... share, if you don't mind?
What was your hope when you started this board.....
and how do you feel about it now?
Having come this far and grown so much?
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Yep, I am totally joking about my daughter for all concerned!!!! Although my husband gave in and got a tattoo at 38, we discourage the kids from doing anything permanent - at least until they are fully on their own and supporting themselves.
I actually like tattoos, and hair dye and all kinds of fun stuff, but I am a wimp and rarely do anything wild!!!!
Thanks for being so thoughtful and taking time to respond to us, Dr. Grossman.
R/Beth
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Dear Richard,
Thanks for responding; its really nice having a conversation with you, and hearing a bit more about your life. Its probably the case for many of us, but when I joined this site I had read all your essays and I was thinking `this fellow Richard is SUCH a wonderful man. It would be great to chat to him one day about life and universe'. Anyway, so now we have, lol. Its really a very nice experience, so thanks!
Good luck with your play, too. They sound very interested in it, if they are asking you to edit it to better suit their format. What a buzz that would be, to see your story expressed in such a way! I'll cross my fingers for you:)
Have a nice day, Richard!
Regards,
bella
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Hi,
Hi Dr. G. and all,
I'm wondering if Nietzsche had voice? He certainly was and is heard even now through his writing, but was that equal to having voice as we understand it here? Was he an optimist or a pessimist?
I used the Wiki link that Dr. G. provided and that started my search for information about Nietzsche's childhood. There may be no way to know for sure, but from what I gather, the poor guy probably didn't have voice as a child. He was much more the tragic figure than I imagined from reading Beyond Good and Evil many years ago, at which time I concluded that we were not philosophical 'matches'. Funny how we can read the written works/words of someone like Nietzsche or even people here on the board and forget that they had a real childhood and perhaps even a very tragic one, and that perhaps their childhood was never touched by compassion. I don't know exactly where I'm going with this. I think I was surprised in the first place that I asked the question of whether he had voice as a child. I think I was surprised by what I perceive to be a likely truth, that he most likely didn't, and that a tender spot has been touched in me about it all.
He was a Philologist, a lover of words. He was known for his aphorisms as well as his writings on philosophy.
I'm no closer to being his philosophical 'match' than I was back in the day, but I do find him a very interesting figure whose life may not be as different from our own as one might imagine.
tt
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Hi lighter,
You asked:
"Please.... share, if you don't mind?
What was your hope when you started this board.....
and how do you feel about it now?
Having come this far and grown so much?"
Initially, I hoped that people could share some of their thoughts about voicelessness that they had not been able to in the past. I still do. I feel satisfaction that the board has been used as an outlet by—and helped—so many people. When ultimately I think back about the time I spent trying to make a difference in people’s lives, this board will be a comfort. That's very important to me.
Best,
Richard
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Richard,
You made a big difference in MANY people's lives . Ami
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Hi lighter,
You asked:
"Please.... share, if you don't mind?
What was your hope when you started this board.....
and how do you feel about it now?
Having come this far and grown so much?"
Initially, I hoped that people could share some of their thoughts about voicelessness that they had not been able to in the past. I still do. I feel satisfaction that the board has been used as an outlet by—and helped—so many people. When ultimately I think back about the time I spent trying to make a difference in people’s lives, this board will be a comfort. That's very important to me.
Best,
Richard
But.... are you surprised at how it actually works.... now?
And is it the vision you had in mind..... is this how you thought it would work?
Or did you see people, coming together in healing... singing the 'Coke' song?
Sans conflic, lol?
After driving meditation this morning.... it came to me....
this place is like a huge group therapy session.... without a therapist :shock:
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Hi lighter,
If I could answer your questions, slightly out of order…
"And is it the vision you had in mind?"
I’m afraid I had no vision. The site started in 1999 with a group of essays on voicelessness, and the message board was simply a place to respond, interactively. Slowly, driven by the need for people to express themselves and to share their experiences, the board evolved into its current ethos.
"..... is this how you thought it would work?"
Again, in the beginning I didn’t think about it working or not working. Over the years I’ve simply tried, as best I can, to keep the board safe and open. Not so easy sometimes…
" Or did you see people, coming together in healing... singing the 'Coke' song?
Sans conflic, lol?"
In the beginning, the conflicts troubled me. Now, I see them as useful—and enormous learning opportunities for all participants.
"After driving meditation this morning.... it came to me....
this place is like a huge group therapy session.... without a therapist "
Some people use/experience the board this way—which is fine! Others use it to feel less alone—which is fine! Others use it for advice—which is fine! And I'm sure there are 100 other reasons people use it--which are fine!
"Are you surprised at how the board actually works...now?"
No. Not after all these years!
Best,
Richard
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Hi lighter,
If I could answer your questions, slightly out of order…
"And is it the vision you had in mind?"
I’m afraid I had no vision. The site started in 1999 with a group of essays on voicelessness, and the message board was simply a place to respond, interactively. Slowly, driven by the need for people to express themselves and to share their experiences, the board evolved into its current ethos.
"..... is this how you thought it would work?"
Again, in the beginning I didn’t think about it working or not working. Over the years I’ve simply tried, as best I can, to keep the board safe and open. Not so easy sometimes…
" Or did you see people, coming together in healing... singing the 'Coke' song?
Sans conflict, lol?"
In the beginning, the conflicts troubled me. Now, I see them as useful—and enormous learning opportunities for all participants.
"After driving meditation this morning.... it came to me....
this place is like a huge group therapy session.... without a therapist "
Some people use/experience the board this way—which is fine! Others use it to feel less alone—which is fine! Others use it for advice—which is fine! And I'm sure there are 100 other reasons people use it--which are fine!
"Are you surprised at how the board actually works...now?"
No. Not after all these years!
Best,
Richard
::realizing I'm peeking under Dr. G's coattails.... and not the Wizard of O's curtain::
Ahem.... sorry Dr.
::dropping coattails :oops:l::
I keep asking the same question over and over again.... don't I?: /
I can't imagine that this board,
which, for me, has been all the things you've written above, at different times....
wasn't the well thought out brain child of someone who saw a (specific) need.... and filled it. ::shaking head::
This is THE place to find affordable sanity and you've cared enough to make it available to everyone.
::resolving to buy Dr. G's book bc there is no tip jar::
Just curiouse.... what did you score on the Meyer's Briggs P test, if you don't mind my asking?
There's gotta be some idealist in there?
And.....
thank you for this board.
It's been more important to me than I can say.
Sincerely,
Lighter
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Dr. G.
Initially, I hoped that people could share some of their thoughts about voicelessness that they had not been able to in the past. I still do. I feel satisfaction that the board has been used as an outlet by—and helped—so many people. When ultimately I think back about the time I spent trying to make a difference in people’s lives, this board will be a comfort. That's very important to me.
I think I may have been one of the earliest 'boardettes'. I'm ashamed to say that on some level back then, I thought the board was a toy. I misused it. I'd like to acknowledge that now and publicly apologize to you and any other users from that period that may still be around. :oops: That is quite a turnaround considering that now I'm more like a 'biddy hen' protecting her young.
In the beginning, the conflicts troubled me. Now, I see them as useful—and enormous learning opportunities for all participants.
I believe as you do.
When you're dandling your grandchildren on your knee, I hope you will find double comfort in knowing that you helped this suffering soul in more ways than she is able to express.
Thank you,
tt
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[When you're dandling your grandchildren on your knee, I hope you will find double comfort in knowing that you helped this suffering soul in more ways than she is able to express
Dear TT,
This made me cry. I share your sentiment. When Dr G wrote that he may not cure world hunger etc-that may be true. However, I agree that he is a very ,great man to give us this medium to regain our precious voices that were silenced by abuse. I will never be able to thank him . Ami
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Hi everyone,
Once again, I want to thank everyone for their thoughts and comments. Lighter asked: "Just curious.... what did you score on the Meyer's Briggs P test, if you don't mind my asking?"
INTJ (On the thinking vs. feeling dimension, though, I'm pretty close to the middle.)
Best,
Richard
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Dear Dr. G.
OMG! :shock:
tt
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Dear Dr. G,
I think this is for the most part, true. But—1) There are people who have been through horrific experiences—terrible families (even narcissistic!), holocaust/genocide, crippling illnesses, who somehow remain hopeful and positive., and 2) in situations where there are identical twins raised apart, if one twin has experienced major depression, the odds are 50% that the other has too. The simplest explanation for these findings is that there is a biological factor in happiness/hopefulness that plays a significant role in how we process our experience of the world.
I'm wondering if you could point me to reading resources having to do with the effects of childhood illnesses on personality development. Also, the possible in vitro :oops: in utero effects on the child when the pregnant mother is struck by a catastrophic illness requiring the administration of life saving medications that would be disallowed otherwise. Example: Influenza, and meningitis. I have searched unsuccessfully.
Whenever or if you can.
Thanks,
tt
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Hi everyone,
Once again, I want to thank everyone for their thoughts and comments. Lighter asked: "Just curious.... what did you score on the Meyer's Briggs P test, if you don't mind my asking?"
INTJ (On the thinking vs. feeling dimension, though, I'm pretty close to the middle.)
Best,
Richard
See.... I would have guessed, for sure, you planned this entire thing (the board) had I known you were a J: /
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I'm wondering if you could point me to reading resources having to do with the effects of childhood illnesses on personality development. Also, the possible in vitro :oops: in utero effects on the child when the pregnant mother is struck by a catastrophic illness requiring the administration of life saving medications that would be disallowed otherwise. Example: Influenza, and meningitis. I have searched unsuccessfully.
tt
Hi tt,
Unfortunately, those are not areas I have any expertise in at all--I'm not even sure where to direct you in order to find any hard data. I'm sure, though, that the work that is being done in these areas is recent...you may want to look in journal articles rather than books.
Best,
Richard
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Thank you Dr. G. I'll keep a watch out for articles.
tt