Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: cats paw on September 25, 2007, 12:10:15 PM
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To All,
I am making a disclaimer first- I am not taking sides, I just wanted to share an observation about myself.
I have read Stormchild's blogs, and I find while reading them, the tone I hear is often one that I hear while reading her on the
board, as well. Some of these blogs are before I ever came to the board, so I am reasonably sure I did not make the mistake of
personalizing when I read the earlier ones.
About the more recent ones, I was a bit confused as to whether if I was guilty of "if you spot it, you got it, " or if I was making a
cognitive error again because I was taught to feel so damn guilty of everthing.
Stormchild is extremely intelligent ( is that an understatement ? ) and I cannot help but admire that. I admire it in so many
others, as well. As Hops mentioned (in her gift to CB, was it?) I thrill to it.
As intelligent and skilled as Stormchild is, I know that she can err. She is human. She can see patterns, some of her "random
walks through a random world" as she headlines one of her blogs, may not be so random, but I need to remember to try to stay
centered within myself when I read her, and know that I need to examine and answer to myself at the end of the day, and see if I
have any true culpability in that which I am accusing myself of.
I do not have the history on the board that many of you do. I am most definitely not defending Stormchild or anyone else. For
sure, it is my opinion Stormchild can defend herself if she feels the need.
In closing, I would like to say I am open to the "gentle nudges" or opinions any would like to offer about what I have written
about myself, or about cognitive distortions, etc. I do not want to offend, and I hope I am not making Stormchild an "object of
exemplification" as was mentioned. If so, Stormchild, please let me know.
Thanks for letting me share my observation.
cats paw
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Dear Cat Paw,
I read your post and I'm not sure what you're saying. Could you be a little clearer?
I must say that it would make me feel uncomfortable if someone started a post about me. It would make me feel like I'm under the microscope. I do feel like you've opened a discussion on a member here and are saying "Let's discuss this person's strengths & weaknesses" as if that person wasn't in the room.
Those are my feelings. I'm just not sure what your intention or purpose is.
Sally
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Hello Sally,
Part of what I'm doing is praising Stormchild. Part of what I am doing is taking a risk with Stormchild, and counting on her to respond or not to respond to what I have written. I do think she will let me know how she feels about it, if that is her choice , and that is why I added what I did about "object of exemplification" as was mentioned in another post.
I said she errs, and is human. I would say that about anyone, because no one can escape the human condition. So I was speaking in general terms. I was not referring to any specific errors.
I also said "the tone I hear" rather than making a pronouncement on the tone Stormchild might be trying to convey in anything she writes.
I think I was also taking a risk with the whole board, and counting on them to know me well enough from what I've written so far that I'm not advocating discussing Stormchild.
I was also sharing a self-observation, which would not have been as easily identified if not for this board, and for reading Stormchild's writing, both here and on her blogs. (Thanks to all of you who have encouraged me to stop worrying so much, BTW!)
Thank you Sally, for asking those questions. What I wrote is a departure from what I would ordinarily do with any other person, much less anyone on the board that I feared would be harmed by what I wrote and the way I wrote it.
Stormchild may feel or think the same way you did, and I invited her to let me know.
I usually try to be cautious about that concept of someone feeling placed under a microscope, but I'm going to risk just a bit with you now too, Sally. I read your post earlier about the ways you wanted to be and to communicate, and I was thinking,- It seems to me she is well on her way to being the way she aspires to be- when I read your post. So I'm just putting it in here now- and being lazy by not going back and putting it in as a reply to what you wrote on your post.
Thanks for your questions and input about what I have written. Does that clear it up a bit?
cats paw
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I am most definitely not defending Stormchild or anyone else. For
sure, it is my opinion Stormchild can defend herself if she feels the need.
In closing, I would like to say I am open to the "gentle nudges" or opinions any would like to offer about what I have written
about myself, or about cognitive distortions, etc. I do not want to offend, and I hope I am not making Stormchild an "object of
exemplification" as was mentioned. If so, Stormchild, please let me know.
Thanks for letting me share my observation.
cats paw
Dear Cats Paw,
I don't know whether or not I'd call it a cognitive distortion, but I do have a concern.
I've no doubt that Stormchild can defend herself as she feels a need to... however...
there's something about the tone of what you've written here that registers with me in a painful sorta way...
as though a person who is intelligent and writes well would not feel as deeply about a post like this as someone less intelligent and literate.
I'm not suggesting that's what you're thinking here, kittyfoot... only telling you how I feel about that part.
Other than that, I agree with Sally that what you're presenting here is - to me - confusing; but that's just the way my mind works (or doesn't work).
When you say that you're making a self-observation, it's unclear to me just what that observation might be?
If you wrote this "about" me, for instance, I'd feel like I was in a fishbowl... much like I felt about Stormchild's post re: Sela on that other thread.
But that's just me.
I hope that made sense. And I'm open to nudging, as well... of the gentle variety.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
P.S. Please feel free to give me a shove if you don't like the kittyfoot part... it just slips out!
And another P.S. on edit... I guess if the title said - To ____ my thoughts about your recent posts - instead of being about the person herself... because this way it sounds to me like critiquing the person and not commenting on specific actions/behaviors/words...
and that is me and my getting tangled up in words, I know.... but they do mean alot... for good reason.
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Carolyn,
I love the kittyfoot part! I loved it the first time you used it. I can see your point about the title of the post.
I am in awe of her intelligence and writing ability, and I'm not saying an intelligent person does not have feelings. Far from it. I do feel that now is where we're getting into discussing Stormy without her being here. I guess the good part about it is she will know that people care about her and her feelings, and I am one of them, more than probably she even knows.
So if I have erred, I will gladly admit that. Just rest assured I would not choose to word a title the same way again, because it could be misconstrued. Basically, it sounds like you saying there is an objection to my posting in the same manner that was found objectionable about the fishbowl effect? Not my intention, but I was aware the possiblity of it, and that is why I mentioned it when I wrote it.
I guess I'm basically saying this was a liberty I would risk taking with Stormy, and no one else. Not that I am saying anyone else is less competent or capable, mind you!! It was a matter of style, and I truly think she will be able to hear what I was talking about - the "the tone I hear". Perhaps I should have typed I in boldface?
As I said, I do hope Stormchild herself will weigh in on this, but she is free not to.
I hope I still have your trust to deal with you, and others, in the way you would like to be dealt with. All my talk of fear of offending was not for sport. I do, very much, want to deal with people in the manner of their own choosing.
As far as the fishbowl effect, I do understand that- even a positive fishbowl, because when I was first on the board and Gaining Strength singled me out with my name and a positive in a thread title, I had to fight a knee-jerk shame from FOO garbage.
I thought I was clear about saying "my thoughts" but I was not as tentative as usual. Did I just make more of a mess?
cats paw
edit in- perhaps I should have titled it- my thoughts about my own reactions when I read Stormchild's blogs and/or posts ? Ah well, perhaps better late than never?
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Ahh... no mess with me, dear Kittyfoot... and I didn't intend to imply that you'd done anything wrong!
Just commenting. I think.
I only meant to respond to what I thought (guessed) was your request for feedback re: any cognitive distortions...
and since feedback is my specialty... well... I took it from there :shock:
One thing is for sure, I never imagined that you bore any ill intent... I am just slow in my understanding.
Except for this... I used to feel "in awe" of some folks.
Thinking back on it, I realize how much good sense there is in one of Teartracks' sayings:
When we put anyone onto a pedestal, then we're responsible for keeping them there. (my paraphrase)
Of course, I know you're not pedestalizing anyone here... I am just rambling.
And with that... I think that I shall think no more today :)
With love,
Carolyn
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Well, Catspaw, lol.....
you get points for bravery.... curiosity..... wanting to engage the board in friendly discussion..... trying to help other see differences in communication style and how that might affect board dynamics and......
I'm thinking about taking those boots back till it passes; )
Heh..... you know I'm just kidding.
I love that you're feeling more confident and I'm glad you're asking questions and trying to learn and grow here. Very big for you, considering you were reduced to lurking for a while bc of fear of breaking rules.
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Hi Cat's Paw
Hey, nobody here has ever started a shout out thread for me before. Thanks :-) I think :-? - it all depends on what's being shouted, I guess. ;-)
But I'm taking it as a compliment, and as evidence that somebody cares. Not offended in the least!
By the way, the reason people 'spot it' is because I have 'got it'. The stuff I post about is things that all abuse survivors are vulnerable to, and I am writing about it from the viewpoint of someone with the same disease. Triangulation, ricochets, Karpman rescues, drama addiction? I've lived through all of that, and done my unfair share. Therefore I can write with authority and not as the scribes... :-?
So I blog as a kind of candle lit against the darkness... my darkness. As a prayer. Please, God, let me hold on to understanding, that I may not go back to these behaviors, or to people who use them against me, unthinkingly. Let me leave these places and people and not return, but don't let me forget, lest I find myself there again unknowingly. Let me understand, let me understand, let me understand, make me wise; give me compassion but even more, give me wisdom, because without wisdom, my compassion will become enabling, and I will be back again in the place from which I have only just escaped. And let me leave a trail, a road through the fens, some path that others may use, crooked and crazy though it may be, to find their way to safety as I find mine, by Your grace. Because almost any suffering can be endured if one can find a way to give it meaning.
And if the tone of my posts is distant, well, that's because I've never been safe here... as anyone who has been on the board in the last 24 hours can pretty plainly see. I'd have to be insane to be affectively any more open here than I am. Coocoo. Nutso bananas.
Now... if you've kindly started this thread to try and keep people - individually or in aggregate - from hating me here, thank you, bless you, but you're wasting your time. People don't hate or not hate other people because they understand them, they hate or don't hate because they want to. Or don't. It's the overall wanting to hate, or wanting not to hate, that can be affected by better understanding.
I've got that disease too, so I know.
Thanks, cats paw.
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This is an odd thread, but I'm just going with it.
Those are interesting thoughts about `hate' Stormchild; I'm sure there is a lot of wisdom there, but I don't quite relate to my own hatred that way. I tend to only `hate' when I have been grossly and cruelly violated, or when a loved one has been. Its not really a psychological `want'. But I'll think on that.
I guess I know what you mean though. I have been `hated' in the symbolic sense, which is terribly frustrating and objectifying. For example, traveling in Asia, there were times when I couldn't get through the utter hatred directed at me for being a free western woman, `not in her place'.
Is that kind of hatred..the symbolic kind...what you're talking about here?
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Yes, Bella, I think so.
The kind of hate you are describing is 'hating back'.
But what of the cruelty that starts that? Where does that come from?
What did those little black kids who had to be escorted to elementary school by National Guardsmen ~40 years ago yesterday ever do to the white grownups who lined the streets and jeered at them?
That kind of hate - what those white adults felt - is a drug, it's an addiction, people enjoy the rush. That's the thing I view as being 'wanted' psychologically. The rush, the feeling of power, the feeling of superiority. 'Put my enemy under my feet'... that stuff.
In the abstract, Bella, don't you hate injustice? Don't you hate the people who fed cats to pit bulls? God... I do. Unashamed, I will admit it. Doesn't matter that they weren't my cats, the poor furry innocents.
Anyway... I view Cats Paw [sorry about the third person, Cats Paw] as a peacemaker, in the best possible sense of the word, and don't want her hurt in the attempt.
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Those are such interesting thoughts; thanks for elaborating for me Stormchild. I admit, I am not much of `abstract hater'. It feels so toxic in my body when i experience it, and i can't really hold onto it mentally either. Theres just so much grey, even when injustice is involved. Maybe I don't care enough about world events and other people's affairs, I don't know. I just know that hate feels so bad, that even when I personally hate someone, it is often replaced quickly with contempt and then disregard. Thanks for getting me thinking about this. I expect I'm a bit out of touch with this toxic feeling, and you make some good points.
In the racism example you gave it totally makes sense that a crowd reaction like that could stir up adrenaline and become like an addiction and therefore a `want' (could you call that a `psychological need' even?). Is that what racism is about? Its a very interesting thought. Thanks for putting the seed in my head.
X Bella
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My thoughts?
I love Stormy!
Don't anyome EVER do this to me!
Izzy
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Love the thread.
I do hate universally..... many things, (bigots, people who hurt children and the helpless.... etc) and it has been like a drug but, alas, I am the fuzzy wuzzy bear and lack the ability to multi task well so.... I sort'a stick with what's in front of me at the time.
My children..... nurture..... healing those I can touch and save the hate for when proper indignation is called for.
I don't hate anyone specifically.... though it's been an effort, IR,L at times.
Nice thread catspaw...... I like your voice: )
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LOL, Lighter that made giggle; I can relate to the effort of hate multi-tasking. I'd implode if I tried to actively hate everyone who deserves it , lol.
I hate one person at the moment. Past bf's and N's Pfft! I just can't hold onto the hate, because I was the dummy who chose to be with them.
The person I hate right now is my neighbor, who started slaughtering the baby birds I tamed last year in the forest. He even had the stupidity to tell me, and then gave me a dumb cerebral excuse, based on ignorance. When I explained the facts to him, he just got angry and said he was going to continue to kill them anyway! My theory is he is jealous of the joy I experience loving these birds, and hes a weirdo gay mysogynist. I think something about `nurturing' offends him.
When I first learned of what he'd done, and in the next two weeks when 2 more babies `disappeared', the hatred I felt kept me awake for 3 nights. That was six moths ago now, and I still `theoretically hate' him, but the passion is gone. I am biding my time before super-soaking his roof with sugar solution, so he'll get an ant infestation. And then I'm going to call the council and complain. I was thinking of running an ad in the local newspaper too, advertising his chickens for free.
Ah, Hate. I don't know what to make of it, but its something fierce, isn't it?
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Ummmmm, Bella.
Sugar soaking AROUND THE PERIMETER OF THE HOUSE>>>>WINDOWS AND DOORS>>>> better than sugar soaking roof, IMO.
Purchasing box of roaches and letting loose in basement..... got that idea from my sister who also left a bunch of mice go free, complete with a bag of food left open, at release site :shock:
She highjacked a friend into service during this deed,
who kept saying..."why are we doing this to these nice people?"
I'm sorry..... I'm laughing here..... not sure why but.....
HE SHOULDN'T BE SLAUGHTERING YOUR BABY BIRD FRIENDS!
What in the heck is he doing to them?
At first I thought he was a hunter.... then you threw in the gay mysogynist thing so.....
really really disturbing though.
((Bella)) Sorry this is happening to you :(
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Dear Lighter,
Oh thankyou so much for the humour; I'm only now at the stage where I can laugh (a little) about it, because the last death is a few months behind me now. I've been all twisted up about it and thinking evil thoughts for quite a while. Sometimes I find relief in the humor of my revenge fantasies; its really hard to deal with this. I get really attached to animals; I guess I feel so free to love them, because their needs are so simple and they never hurt me emotionally. So I loved these little ones with total abandon.
I think the Neighbour guy was able to lure the babies to him, and either catch or poison them, as they were tamed by us and very trusting. In Australia, its illegal to kill these birds, as they are endangered. They are small black and white insectivores, with big personalites and who love being around people (and most people are thrilled when they find themselves living near them) . I was gutted when he told me he'd killed one of the friendly babies, and planned to kill more.
His reasoning for killing them, at the time, was that he thought it was illegal to feed wild birds, which is totally false. And what a jerk for thinking he's the bird-feeding police anyway! Its just so weird that he's been paying so much close attention to my activities in the local forest, in any case.
I said to myself, I will let myself cool down before I retaliate. I want to be careful not to anything rash that would harm my partner, the birds, or myself.
Thanks so much for listening, and for super-soaker advice, lol.
X bella
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If you boil the water first... and add the sugar to make a simple syrup.... super soaker will work like a charm.
Now... I still don't get why this guy DID what he did.... his excuse made NO Sense at all and are you even sure he's not just jerkin your chain and saying he did this awful thing?
IF he did this... he is indeed disturbed and you should be careful.
I don't like the idea of him watching you in the forest... esp if you're alone... if you get my meaning.
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I don't know what his deal is Lighter, but I think it was a personal attack on me, as I was the one he'd see feeding the birds occasionally. I'd catch him staring at me when I crossed the road from my house, and sometimes he'd see the birds fly to me excitedly. I don't go to the forest alone anymore, which is good because its more fun doing it with my partner and i feel safer.
I can only hope he was lying about killing the birds. The suspicious thing is that 2 of them died with two weeks of him saying he was going to kill them, and they were the most tame ones. We stopped feeling the survivors by hand, and tried to make them a bit more wary. And that totally sucked, because it takes a lot for a wild animal to trust a human, and it really hurts to betray the trust, even if its to protect them
And lol to your extra super soaker advice. It sounds like a good idea...funny, not too criminal, and yet effective. lol.
love to you lighter.you made me feel much better tonight. I haven't spoken about this before.
X Bella
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If I was near.... I'd purchase the rodents and cockroaches.... boil the simple syrup, load the super soaker then dawn my trusty pith helmet, used for just such occassions, and help you feel even better.
::wiggling eyebrows::
Remember.... it's better to wonder what happened to gay mysogynist psycho boy.... and feel pity for him... than it is to hold the grudge for too long.
Be glad you aren't him.... and assume some psycho tortured him when he was little and defenseless.... but don't drop your gaurd. Just work through the anger and let it go.
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Thankyou Lighter;
That is such good advice. Overcoming this grudge will be hard, I think, because the guy is not exactly begging me for forgiveness or likely to stop killing the local birds.
But I just read reallyME's post about the phases of mourning, and a thought struck me: perhaps I'm holding onto this grudge because I'm still finding it hard to face the loss ?
Maybe its like a form of denial, or bargaining? I'll have to think on this one. Maybe I have to properly greive?
X Bella
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Bella this experience is so disturbing. I am so incredibly disturbed by a guy who would intentionally kill birds because he has the opportunity as they are made vulnerable by trusting him. Eww eww eww.
My sense of danger is going red alert reading about this guy, because he exhibits stalker behavior by monitoring you going into the woods. Because he let you know he had killed some of the birds and intended to kill others. It makes me think his object is to strike at you. You had the relationship with the birds (envy/striking at your relationships), you are the one he watched, you are the one he told. He is creepy as hell.
In your place I would feel a heightened sense of disgust and aversion and danger and I wouldn't be calling it a grudge and chiding myself because he is still a free and active force. In retrospect I might want to let go of my grudge but my word - what a creep. Be safe.
Did you report him to any authority for his killing the birds?
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Dear Iphi,
Yes I rang the authorities, but they required photographic evidence, and wouldn't even talk to him without it, so that was a waste of time. Theres nothing much I can do about the guy's ongoing behavior, and I've put so much thought into it, Iphi.
Its such a horrible feeling, being this powerless to help a family of birds I know and love. I've become a weird about this too; like every day I feel a bit stressed until I see all of the family, and that they're ok. This has been going on for months now.
I agree with your assessment of the guy. It deeply offends me that he would kill baby animals just to hurt a woman he hardly knows. Some people really just suck at being people.
Thanks so much for your care.
X Bella
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((((((Bella))))))) I read this last night and could not even comment.
I'm with Iphi... it just feels very deeply disturbing.
He not only claims to have done this horrible thing, but actually tells you that he did it? I don't like it one bit.
You know, when you reported this the first time, I imagine that your focus was on those poor little birds... and I understand that nothing could be done without evidence.
I just wonder whether you cannot make a fresh report about his watching you... making his presence known to you... that whole aspect of it. I do believe it's worth putting something in writing into the hands of the authorities.
Do you have a list of registered offenders available there?
Here we do, by state.
I think I'd try to find out whether he's ever been charged...
Sorry to be so dramatic, but that is how this whole thing strikes me... absolutely wicked.
Please take good care.
With love,
Carolyn
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Lighter- Thanks for awarding me points. I'm not giving boots or bronze back.;) I would, however, expect one and all to issue a
command to disarm myself if I ever abuse my amazonian tools.
Bella- It is so sad about those trusting little birds. I'm with everyone else- about the guy being scary. What a shame you cannot
go into the forest alone anymore.
Izzy- When you said not to ever do that to you- did you mean for me not to, or anyone not to? If it was not clear in what I wrote,
I would not have done it this way with anyone else beside Stormchild, even though my intention was benign. I think you
were just speaking in general?
Way back when I was first on the board, I know you never intended for me to stop talking about some things about my own
mother, but I wondered if some of the things I was saying were having an effect on you, and you said-in general- you
wondered about all us daughters on the board in reference to your daughter and yourself. I made that decision on my
own- to cut back on talking about my mother- perhaps it could be called codependent. I just know that now, since you have
your fence, as you put it, and you and your daughter are emailing, if I ever feel the need again, I will talk about what I need
to about my own mother with much more ease.
I just want to say I wouldn't do that to you- what you said about don't ever do that to me.
Stormchild- the way you spoke about me in third person was not hurtful.
To All- I thought of a specific instance to illustrate what I was trying to describe. I posted once and made a comment that my BF
and I were talking and she said if a certain person was on fire at the end of her driveway, she wouldn't even p--- on them
to put them out. I said that even if I saw Hitler on fire, I'd probably not think first, and I'd go grab her garden hose. ( I
worked in the ER for many years.)
Shortly after making that comment, I read some of Stormchild's commentary about deceptive self-disclosure. I then
proceeded with my cognitive distortions : Oh no, she's talking about me, how dishonest am I, she knows I really wouldn't
do that in real life and she's writing about it, who do I think I am, etc. etc.
Does my initial post make a bit more sense?
cats paw
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Dear Catspaw,
I'm so sorry to have hijacked your thread...it all just came tumbling out, and I thank you for being so patient with me. And thank you for your kind words too.
And Carolyn, thanks for your advice. I will think about that some more! Hugs to you:).
Catspaw,
Yes, I think your initial post makes sense, and I think you are very honest and observant, when it comes to reading Storm's more triggering blogs. I haven't read them, so i can't comment, I'm afraid. It sounds like the sort of content that would arouse anger in a lot of people, who are not ready to embrace their inner darkness. It doesn't mean they're bad people tough...they're just not ready.
X Bella
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Hi everybody,
This thread will be locked soon. Please see my note on the thread: Is it ok to say: "I hate you."?
Best,
Richard
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Bella,
Thanks, but no worries about hijacking! I like the interesting turns threads take.
I'm feeling reassured that you understood my initial post and I appreciate your kindness in your saying it.
cats paw