Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sun blue on September 27, 2007, 05:53:45 PM
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Sometimes it is just overwhelming to be so ignored and made to feel invisible by my N mom and co-dependent dad. It is bad enough when it is done on a daily basis, but when you are going through a difficult time and could really use their help, it is beyond frustrating. I just want to explode and cry and throw and tantrum and scream, "How could you do this to your own? Why don't you care?"
But of course I don't. And it wouldn't matter if I did. They still wouldn't get it. Recently, as I've noted on the board, I've been wresting with a job situation and I'm having a rough time making a decision. Both my parents just ignore me even when I specifically tried to discuss it.
I'm wondering for those of you who have an N parent and co-dependent parent, how does the co-dependent parent act? While I find it hard to accept, I can understand the disinterest from the Nparent because they are NPD. But, I don't get the co-dependent parent's behavior. They're not NPD. Why don't they show interest or care or concern?
It's so hard to be alone and invisible and ignored. Some days more than others. But it is just so hard to understand.
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::Sigh::
Can you imagine what your father's been through over the years with your N mum?
I'm guessing he's been conditioned and drained of himself.... replaced with a driven desire for peace that leaves little room to help others.....
he hasn't been able to save himself :shock:
He wasn't strong and healthy when he married your mother, is my guess.
He's just one of the wounded doing the best he can.... which might actually suck but....
it's probably the best he can do with what he has (emotionally.)
So sorry.... (((Blue)))
It sounds like you've been hurt and frustrated for a long time.
I hope you can go ahead and be angry.... dissapointed and sad sad sad..... then forgive them for not being able to do better and let them go.
Doesn't happen quickly, I know but.... you sure need to process those feelings and move through them... it's all true and unfair and you deserved better, no doubt.
Your parents aren't ever going to do it for you because they can't, or they would have.
Find other people to adopt.... to nurture and be nurtured by.
You can seek out better for yourself.
It gets easier once you give up hope of receiving it from those that simply cannot give it to you.... no matter how little sense that makes.
I'm not saying "get over it" I'm saying go through it, process it then make peace with it and stop hoping.
Replace replace replace.... isn't that AA's motto?
I'm rambling.... sorry: )
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Dear Sun,
The awful truth is that the co dependent parent does not make a 'move" with out the approval of the N. I see that with my F ,now. He learned about N,but he is slipping back to his old" self."
This is my brilliant idea that I realized ,yesterday. The N throws you under the bus and the codependent leaves you there--BLEH.
Sorry Sun. I really am. We don't deserve this curse. We really don't.((((((((((((((Sun)))))))) Love Ami
PS - Keep writing. It will help to keep expressing yourself
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Hi there Sun blue,
With a title like this thread has....I couldn't just ignor it.
I'm sorry I don't have any easy answers for your questions but I just wanted to let you know that I hear your pain and I'm so sorry that you have to experience it. It's not fair! No child should feel so uncared for.
Here, at least, you are not alone. Nor will you be ignored.
I'm sorry I haven't read your other thread about the job situation but I can give you a little formula I use in helping me make decisions:
1. Think of the worst possible thing that could happen.
2. Accept it.
3. Make a plan of what you'll do, if it happens.
4. Forget about it because the chances are, the worst possible thing that can happen, won't. But at least if it does, you will have thought about it ahead of time, accepted it, planned for it and all you will have left is to put your plan in place. Saves a lot of agrivation when the facing the worst scenarios.
5. If there's no time to do 1,2,3 and 4........go with your instincts.
I know that sounds oversimplified but I have found it to be very useful sometimes. And to boot....I now trust my instincts.
I hope this helps even a little.
Sela
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hi sun blue
" I just want to explode and cry and throw and tantrum and scream, "How could you do this to your own? Why don't you care?"
I would like to know how old you are. You don't have to tell if you don't want to, but I am 68½ and never once when I was growing up did I ever think what you did, because I didn't know those words or that I was 'allowed' to do it!
I can understand your pain, as it is through others, on this Board, that I learn the very things that likely caused me pain, but I didn't know it. It is likley stored someplace and has never been resolved.
Do you have someone else, i.e. aunt and uncle, neighbour couple to 'represent' parents and talk with them? I had a woman try to get to know me, get into my life, (I now think she understood what was happening) but I thought she was just being nosy---which I learned from my mother eavesdropping on the party line. Had I known what I now suspect, this woman and her husband could have been my saviours!
Yes. I felt invisible too!
Hang in there
Love
Izzy
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Sunblue,
My dad was always very busy, and I don't think he really knew what I needed anyway, but it's hard when you feel ignored.
How's the decision making process going?
cats paw
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Thanks everyone for weighing in. You make really good points. Lighter, you are so right in what you said. You have to stop expecting they will act and think normally. I guess I just never thought that was also true of co-dependents. Even though I consider myself the most damaged and unhealthy in my family, I've had counselors who've told me they can't understand how I could think so "normally" given my dysfunctional family. To me, it's just common sense that a mother and father would want close, loving relationships with their children that involves talking to them, visiting with them, initiating activities, being interested in their lives. But mine don't. I guess the co-dependency is so deep and my co-D dad is so fearful of my Nmom that he just doesn't care about having good relationships with his children.
Izzy, to answer your question, I noted that I felt like screaming, throwing a tantrum, etc....but I don't do it. Partly because I know it would only make matters worse. After the explosion, it wouldn't change anything. It would just give them more ammunition to use against me.
And as for having other people in my life growing up, no I did not...and do not. One trait of my Nmom and co-dependent dad was that they excluded everyone from their lives. They were always very, very private. So, they were estranged from their own siblings and family so no aunts, uncles or cousins around. They were polite to but not social with neighbors, church goers, co-workers or anyone. They didn't really allow us to bring friends or anyone to the house. They always insisted that we go somewhere else (too worried about messing up the house or bothering the neighbors). As a consequence, I really had no one. That continues today. I also had a N sister who was abusive.
I also think it's a question of generations and availability of knowledge. My parents' generation never questioned their parents or any person of authority. They thought it disrespectful to argue with, disagree with or question them. I think today things are different. Also, we have the benefit of a lot more research, understanding and information regarding what is and what isn't healthy parenting or relationship behavior.
I am often consumed with the "what if's" What if I had someone to encourage me, support me, talk to me? Would I have been able to develop friends, relationships? What I be more successful? Would I not hate myself? Would I not be suicidal or seriously depressed? Would I have been able to experience joy and happiness? Everyone always say how futile it is to think in terms of "what ifs" but sometimes it is hard when you look around you and see the consequences of people who had good parents and relationships.
P.S. I'm still struggling with the job decision although I'm leaning towards taking it (only because I might have to). I know that I will feel like an even bigger failure and more depressed. My stomach churns even as I write this.
I guess the "normal" part of me wants to be a good daughter, a loving daughter....the kind you see on TV where the daughter and Mom talk on the phone or go shopping or go to lunch. The mom may be nosy or offer advice the daughter doesn't want, but by the end of the conversation, mom and daughter are still ok. Same goes for dad and daughter. It is really hard to know that will never happen. It's hard not to feel like a terrible daughter. My Nmom's bitterness and resentment and misplaced blame on my brother and I prevent us from helping her in any major way. She simply won't allow it because it's her way of "punshing" us. She's not the violent or screaming sort of N; her method is systematic withdrawal, emotional blackmail and disinterest. I'd almost prefer having the former.
Anyway, thanks for listening. It gets me in the gut sometimes...especially on days like today when I'm feeling particularly alone and lonely. I'm very honest with myself and know that if I were to die today or be sent to the hospital, there would be no one there. No one would care. Yet, I know I have always tried to be good and caring to people. Always there for co-workers or so-called "friends"' and family. But.....well you know the rest.
Take care and thanks for letting me vent.
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Sunblue,
Lots of sadness, lots of feelings.
I wrestle ( used to struggle, now I wrestle) with the I'm not a good daughter thing.
I went and skimmed your previous post, and you said you know about your thinking processes and depression.
"I know that I will feel like an even bigger failure and more depressed."
IMO, taking that job, even because you might have to, is a stepping stone to change.
I think about what if's. Sometimes it's got a lot to do with grieving.
cats paw
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Thanks everyone for weighing in. You make really good points. Lighter, you are so right in what you said. You have to stop expecting they will act and think normally. I guess I just never thought that was also true of co-dependents. Even though I consider myself the most damaged and unhealthy in my family, I've had counselors who've told me they can't understand how I could think so "normally" given my dysfunctional family.
It sounds to me like you are the 'identified patient' who displays the dysfunction of the whole family. As such you are the one who actually is the most healthy and least repressed. And that means... you have the most potential out of all of them - but of course not with them sucking your life force all the time. I know you think your bro is the most normal or healthy, but I am skeptical of that. My sister told me that she made a conscious decision to cut off her own empathy as a teen - it was a self-protective choice, but in the long run I think it has seriously hurt her. But she sees therapy as weak and an admittance of inability to function so she has cut herself off from actually healing. [Edited to add - she sees self-reflection and introspection as weak faffing around too - not just formal therapy] That's what I am reminded of when I read about how your bro distances himself and etcetera.
Here's a question my T used to ask me when I said absolute things like "I am a failure." Every time she said "Who thinks that?" "Who says that to you?" It was so sudden, the way she said it, it was shocking. She was shocking me out of the rut of saying that. I just felt disoriented when she said it and I don't think I ever did admit to myself or her who really said that stuff - that stuff that I was saying to myself. Of course my dad said it, maybe not usually directly, but I got the message. The way I talked to myself, loyally repeating his message, shows I got the message.
Who says to you that you are a loser sun blue? Whose voice is that? It's not your voice. It's only masquerading as your voice inside your head. :shock:
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Yup, I'm definitely identified as the messed up one.....Well, actually, my dad views my Nsister as "sick". When I pointed out that it was I who have been diagnosed with major depression and PTSD, that it was I who was suicidal and hospitalized, who have no one and nothing in my life, he just looks away and claims all the more fiercely that no, my poor, (N) sister has a "nervous" condition. She refuses to seek help or therapy because that is soooooo very beneath her. After all, she's not crazy...(it's me). My family regards depression as weakness, therapy as something that is OK for those other people, but never for them. Basically whatever is wrong is MY problem.
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So, yes, I hear that "voice" telling me I'm a failure all the time. I hear the voice...It is mine....But it is a voice that was developed over a long period of time, thanks to my Nmom's quite but obvious disapproval, judgment and disinterest.
And yes, my bro seems to be the most healthy. He distances himself very well from my family (and lately even me). He has everything he wants...a wonderful wife and daughter, a good job, a nice home, friends, his wife's family. He never had the difficulties I did. He also never had the abuse from my N sister like I did as a child. It just seems like everyone in my family does well but me....Yet, it's me who goes to therapy, is on meds, seeks self-awareness, etc. It's me who needs them without them needing me.
So, very frustrating and painful. A never-ending road that leads to the same disappointments. I always said I wished somebody would produce a special pill you could give to the other members of your family so that when they swallowed it, they immediately knew how it felt to be me, to think like me, to be on the receiving end of the pain they unleashed.
But alas, no pill. No compassion. No empathy
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I'm so sorry, Sun.
When you feel up to it, have you thought about what ways you might decide to go out and collect your own family? One example I think of is a vibrant wonderful group in my church called Healing Hearts, or something. It's like Emotions Anonymous, in some ways I believe.
The folks there have been to hell and back and they're just busy building a nurturing and supportive community of REAL and RECIPROCAL caring that gives each of them a circle of security and safety they never found at home.
I wish something like that for you from whatever source makes sense. I've done it myself with women's support groups, co-ed and multigenerational covenant groups (our last 2 had the sweetest old man, 92, who still hikes the mountains with his lively junior wife, merely 80-something) ... things like this do build what I think of as the extended family that will sustain me, and that I'll want to sustain, all the days of my life.
love
Hops
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sunblue,
I can relate to feeling like the "damaged one" in the family. I felt like that growing up but I also often feel that way in my marriage. You see, ever since I went through things with people of my past, and I began putting "labels" on what those behaviors meant, I began labeling even the people in my family. Well, I've pretty much stopped doing that, but now, my children and husband have turned it on me, blamed me for "psychobabbling" everyone everywhere, and tell me I'm the "mental" one. I have come to believe that there are some areas that it's better to remain voiceless in. Even people who do have disorders in behavior, because of those problems, do not like nor appreciate you pointing it out to them. Often, the messenger is rejected and the message ignored, brushed off, or projected onto you.
Iphi: My sister told me that she made a conscious decision to cut off her own empathy as a teen - it was a self-protective choice, but in the long run I think it has seriously hurt her. But she sees therapy as weak and an admittance of inability to function so she has cut herself off from actually healing. [Edited to add - she sees self-reflection and introspection as weak faffing around too - not just formal therapy] That's what I am reminded of when I read about how your bro distances himself and etcetera.
Iphi, would you say your sister has N characteristics? It seems to me that, all that I've studied on the topic, is epitomized in these children who pretty much "raised themselves," at some crucial point of life. I'd like to know if you'd include your sister in this description, due to the choice to cut off empathy.
Hops, I didn't know you had a church. You do? Tell more about the Healing Hearts Group too. Isn't it amazing that even churchgoers have issues they struggle with? I often have asked myself, based on the songs we sing in church "Jesus You're ALL I need" "You're all I want"...if that were really TRUE, then why do we all seem to depend on humans so darn much?
~Laura
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Hi Laura,
This is my church: www.uua.org (http://www.uua.org)
Most of my friendships and social life flow from that...
xo
Hops
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Thanks. I kind of had a feeling that was the type of church you belonged to. The all-encompassing belief pattern, etc. I had a friend years ago who married into the UA church. Very pleasant wedding ceremony
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Dear Laura,
I wanted to address the question that I though I heard you asking,"IF we have the Bible and ALL the wisdom, WHY aren't we well.?"
I have asked that a million times. I have asked that about other people and myself. In churches, there are the same conflicts and pettiness that are anyplace else.
My answer ,from my experience, is that God cannot get in when we are so "plugged "up with pain and old worn out ideas. As I heal(let go of N ideas), I am getting closer to God and understanding Him in a deeper ( and almost effortless way). Truths just come in to my head. I have heard them thousands of time,but now they go to my heart.
I wrote a new thread about learning from conflict.
Another HUGE thing that I was doing wrong was "permitting" myself to have fear, depression, hatred, bitterness. I was simply thinking that if anyone had my M, they were "allowed" to be miserable..
However,I was allowing ALL the CORROSIVE emotions to destroy me BY letting them stay in there against OTHER people. I was getting bitten on the A## b/c I wanted to bite other people on the A##. This is so big to me. It is life changing. Let me know what you think, Laura Love Ami
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I agree with your perceptions on that, Ami. I do think we become "plugged up" in certain areas of our lives. I think we also need to realize that relationships are not just one-sided...as much as we have had dysfunctional people in our lives, we often are the other half of those situations.
i think with many of us, we do carry a lot of negative feelings toward people. God can't heal a heart that is full of unforgiveness. We have to not only forgive our adversaries, accusers, families, N's or whomever, but we also have to forgive ourselves for certain things. We also have to repent from any damaging behaviors in ourselves. Repent means TURN AROUND AND DO THE OPPOSITE. It does not mean we say "sorry" but then continue doing what we've always done, reacting how we always did.
Just some thoughts from me
~Laura
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Repent means TURN AROUND AND DO THE OPPOSITE. It does not mean we say "sorry" but then continue doing what we've always done, reacting how we always did[
Brilliant point, Laura
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Iphi, would you say your sister has N characteristics? It seems to me that, all that I've studied on the topic, is epitomized in these children who pretty much "raised themselves," at some crucial point of life. I'd like to know if you'd include your sister in this description, due to the choice to cut off empathy. ~Laura
Hiya Laura - I'm not sure I exactly understood what you meant about children who had to raise themselves (I think any child of an N has to raise themselves even if food and shelter are provided), but I will do my best on the rest. I don't think my sister is N, but I think we both did what we had to do to survive and that is what she felt she had to do - cut off her empathy, like cutting off her foot to escape a trap. All she had to do was look at me to decide plenty of distance was called for - I was a mess - depressed, crying all the time, super anxious, screwing up at school (not all that bad really - but it was about perfection), getting into conflict with teachers, so forth. So mainly, yeah, I think it was me that she wanted to put a quarantine on, because I was destabilizing, but she took it further and put the quarantine on everybody - she said "i'm taking care of #1." Like Ami says - somebody else might have thrown me under the bus, but she was definitely the one who would leave me there, but she couldn't do any different - and it shows the degree of her fear.
She's still prone to a kick-when-you-are-down approach, but only if you actually go to her looking for warmth or empathy. She doesn't come find you to kick you. She's not into control like Ns are. It's self-protection. Not a rescuer, no. In her mind, I am the cause of our family problems through my innate screwiness - and imo that means she is in denial and too terrified to lay the proper responsibility in the proper quarter at my dad's feet, because it was always his #1 priority to avoid his proper responsibility. He didn't care who took it in the neck as long as he didn't have to assume any responsibility about it or have anyone else point it out to him.
But beyond that, when I think about both sides of our family and our cousins and relatives - there's not all that much empathy to go around anyway. I have identified 2, possibly 3, more Ns on my dad's side and my paternal grandpa was extremely N-ish if not N.
Nature or nurture?
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I agree with your perceptions on that, Ami. I do think we become "plugged up" in certain areas of our lives. I think we also need to realize that relationships are not just one-sided...as much as we have had dysfunctional people in our lives, we often are the other half of those situations.
i think with many of us, we do carry a lot of negative feelings toward people. God can't heal a heart that is full of unforgiveness. We have to not only forgive our adversaries, accusers, families, N's or whomever, but we also have to forgive ourselves for certain things. We also have to repent from any damaging behaviors in ourselves. Repent means TURN AROUND AND DO THE OPPOSITE. It does not mean we say "sorry" but then continue doing what we've always done, reacting how we always did.
Just some thoughts from me
~Laura
Laura, I really agree with what you've written. I read it book once, a spiritual book, and it spoke about how relationships are the way God prunes us so that we can become the person he wants us to be. It said it is in relationships that we get to come face to face with the hidden parts of us that we want to deny and that we get the opportunity to practice true Christianity -- forgiveness, unconditional love, grace and all of the other fruits of the spirit. It said every time we "meet" up with someone who we get into conflict with we have the opportunity to exhibit the fruits of the spirit. Many people think it takes others cooperation to do so but that isn't true, we get to decide what we are going to do, you know, which wolf we are going to feed. It said we're only looking at how we have been hurt and not looking at how we hurt each other, our faith is without works -- it's dead. It said it is only when we are able to treat other people as Christ treats us, accepting us as we are, forgiving our wrongs and not holding against us that we can be free to grow -- I feel that is the cornerstone of spiritual growth.
Accepting people as they are and forgiveness though comes with understanding -- like Iphi spoke about, understanding where the person has come from and what has affected their behavior -- what has made them who they are. I find the only true understanding I have comes as I understand myself more. It seems like the more I know how I tick, the more I can understand others. Then I can forgive them because I also forgive myself, as I know God forgives me as well.
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[ find the only true understanding I have comes as I understand myself more. It seems like the more I know how I tick, the more I can understand others. [
Dear QB, This ( above) is the path out of our painful and stick patterns---- Know Thyself. I remember that there was a time when I was centered and i did know myself without judging myself as "bad".
I could feel what I was feeling if it was a good OR bad desire.
If I acted on it, that was another level all together. However ,the MAIN point was that I was connected to feeling it and not lying to myself to "save face" to myself.( or save face to the voracious "mother' voice inside me)
I think that this true connection with ourselves is a crucial step to healing. I guess you could call it acceptance of your inner child, deep feeling level or pre verbal level. They are all the same thing.
Thanks QB------- that was a great insight--my Friend Love Ami