Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: teartracks on October 03, 2007, 02:24:40 AM
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Hi everyone,
So that is my question. Are a wrongly shaped conscience and voicelessness related and how?
tt
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Dear Teartracks,
I'm not sure what you mean by `shaped' exactly, but I think I get the gist of what you're asking:)
Judging from my own family, I think an absense of conscience can be related to voicelessness, genes, and also spoiling a child. The people I know with an `over bourden' of conscience', tend to have been voiceless, but it can also be related to being highly sensitive and in tune with other people feelings. I suppose that would be genetic?
X Bella
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Dear TT,
With my M( an N), she HAS a conscience, Thank God..
If not, she would be a sociopath. I ,often, thank God for that. As bad as she was, at least she had a conscience.
So, for her( an N), I think that her emotional development stopped at an early age( 4-5). However, she does have a conscience. She knows right from wrong. Sometimes, she is abusive even though she knows it is wrong. She simply 'wants" to be .It is like a child pulling the toy out of the other child's hand.They simply want the toy.
Yesterday, my M wanted to vent her rage on me so badly.I could feel it coming out of every pore in her body. However, she couldn't b/c people are watching her ,now. She knows that raging is wrong. However,it feels so good to her that she does it anyway. She knows she is destroying me(conscience) BUT she doesn't care. That is the thing- she simply doesn't care,I think..
So ,that is having a conscience,but choosing to do what you want even though you know it is wrong
I had a b/f who I think was a sociopath. That was a whole new ball game than an N.(YIKES, I could be in some ditch,now.)
Actually,as I write this, I am not sure how the conscience relates to "voicelessness" exactly. I know that it must . However,I can't see the actual connections clearly. Maybe, other people can express it better.I will be waiting to hear. Love to you TT Ami
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If you're voiceless, you don't get basic emotional needs met.
But you still have the natural drive to get them met.
It has to go somewhere.
So it can turn around and corkscrew back inside, and mess with your conscience.
Hops
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I think I have a couple of those corkscrews!!
I feel guilty for speaking up.
And guilty for trying to get my needs met.
Guilty....guilty .... guilty......both things seem to hurt people. And nice little girls aren't suppose to do that.
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THAT is what I was trying to say,Poppy. I have the "tapes" that nice girls should not be,,,strong, angry, care for themselves( selfish), assertive, etc. These tapes are really an impediment to healing. That is why I am expressing them --as a way to let them go.
The hardest ones for me are 'Nice girls should not be strong( this includes being able to get angry and defend yourself) OR take care of their own needs and feelings( selfish). BLEH Ami
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I hope, Ami, that you could make a list of all those things nice little girls do and chuck it out the window. It is such a prison!!! to try to march by such backwards rules. Anyway, I think "NICE" is highly overrated!!!!
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What you will be is a "nice" corpse.
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Bella,
I'm not sure what you mean by `shaped' exactly, but I think I get the gist of what you're asking:)
The subject of conscience is such a complex one that I didn't know exactly how to ask the question to keep it on track and in context along the lines of voicelessness from parental influence. Let me try again. On the board, there seems to be a strong consensus (I agree with the consensus) that parents have the power to give or take a childs voice. That the parent can overlay the child's mind with a veneer lifted from themselves rather than simply guiding and nurturing the unique, original mind God gave the child. Then I got to thinking that perhaps the two conscience and voicelessness might be the same or minimally entertwined. This whole question has my mind in a twist right now.
Now, I'll read the other posts. Thanks.
tt
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[This whole question has my mind in a twist right now.
That is funny, TT
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It is shame! Shame warps the conscience!! Shame shuts the lips and eyes and the inner voice. Kids get it, you know? Don't you remember the days before you felt so bad about stuff. Child-like wisdom. But the infusion of shame brings worth into question and warps what is truly moral and immoral and confuses ones abillity to voice.
Shame is bad.....very very bad.
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Ami,
If not, she would be a sociopath. I ,often, thank God for that. As bad as she was, at least she had a conscience.
This is one reason my mind is in a twist about the conscience thing. I'm thankful that we had pretty stringent moral guidelines in the FOO. But disappointed that they didn't include allowing me to be me. Now I feel selfish :?. So that gets me to wondering if the conscience and the sense of agency that Dr. G says a child needs are nurtured along two different tracks. Then I get to wondering if a congruence of the two wrongly shaped tracks has to take place to create a sociopath. Lord I have questions! Help!
Pops,
I feel guilty for speaking up.
Please don't hesitate to speak up to me Pops. If you can make heads or tails of what I'm asking here, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Hops,
Yeah, one of the things I'm trying to understand is how a parent nurtures a right foundation in a child's conscience vs a faulty one.
tt
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What you will be is a "nice" corpse.
HA HA! Not me. I may be a lot of things, but my will is stronger than my weakness. I refuse to die!!!!
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Yeah, one of the things I'm trying to understand is how a parent nurtures a right foundation in a child's conscience vs a faulty one.
Dear TT,
I have come to believe that `empathy ' dictates the human conscience above all, even above learned morals and parental guidance (although they do help!).
By the laws of empathy, the rule of thumb is that `if it harms someone else, don't do it'. Morals and education refine this, and help with dealing with complexities and ambiguities, but the empathy has to be there in the first place, for `conscience' to have any meaning to an individual, I think.
Is there a particular situation on your mind that you'd like to talk about, or is this more of a general type of question?
X Bella
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Hi Bella,
Is there a particular situation on your mind that you'd like to talk about, or is this more of a general type of question?
Right now, this whole question is a jumble in my mind.
Do you think a child comes pre-wired with empathy? Or is it a combination of genetic and environment?
I agree that empathy is foundational.
I grew up with Nmom and a highly spiritual dad. I think a large part of my question revolves around trying to figure out how and to what degree they as individuals influenced the shaping of my conscience. My dad taught us morals inspired by his spiritual beliefs and a conviction that following a high moral code would make us better people. Nmom taught no morals. With her it was more of a Morals de jour situation. When I think of it this way, it is as if my conscience was influenced by my dad. My voicelessness was the legacy of Nmom. It seems that voicelessness is a disease of the emotions more than a disease of the conscience. What do you think?
Wiki defines conscience this way. Conscience is an ability or faculty or sense that leads to feelings of remorse when we do things that go against our moral values, or which informs our moral judgment before performing such an action. Such feelings are not intellectually reached, though they may cause us to 'examine our conscience' and review those moral precepts, or perhaps resolve to avoid repeating the behaviour.
I welcome input on this if you can make heads or tails of where I'm going with it.
tt
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Very well said, CB... I agree completely.
Interesting topic, tt... thanks!
Carolyn
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Dear CB,
Thank you so much for what you wrote. I'll be reading it a few times for it to soak into my befuddled brain.
When I start threads here they seem to come from three distinct places . 1) I think I have something figured out and I want feedback from other members to back up what I think may be the answer or 2) I feel compelled to state my thinking on something concerning the board or 3) I've stumbled on something that I just can't dope out. This thread is definitely the latter.
As I posted on the Artist's Way thread (my last post there) , I think I have reached a pivotal point in my recovery/discovery/renewal. There's something about the question I'm asking here that makes me think it may be the turning on a dime for me to reenter the jungle (except now the jungle, FOO dysfunction has been demystified, doesn't make me fearful) from whence I came, where I'll walk the same path except in the opposite direction and see things from the other side of the forest so to speak. I don't know if the 'other side' is meant to give me a broader personal warm fuzzy perspective of the incredibly hard last seven years or if it is to allow me to see things from the perspective of my abuser. Either or both is OK with me. I just want to continue my journey in a productive way, a way that is not wrought with fear and pure affliction. I want the ME that I had to search so hard to find to shine. CB, I think I may be in a similar place as you were when you jumped on board here when you were in the throes of divorcing your XN. I'm at the moving on stage. Changing scenery stage. The freedom stage.
Please don't apologize for posting more. I needed to hear every word you wrote and anything else you and others can offer.
The subject of conscience is such a complex one that I didn't know exactly how to ask the question to keep it on track and in context along the lines of voicelessness from parental influence. Let me try again. On the board, there seems to be a strong consensus (I agree with the consensus) that parents have the power to give or take a child's voice. That the parent can overlay the child's mind with a veneer lifted from themselves rather than simply guiding and nurturing the unique, original mind God gave the child. Then I got to thinking that perhaps the two, conscience and voicelessness might be the same or minimally entertwined. This whole question has my mind in a twist right now.
This has lodged itself in my mind. Do you or anyone have any thoughts on it?
tt
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Dear CB,
I really enjoyed reading your observations as a mother. I had a truck load of empathy as a child; I can't remember when it started though, or if it was `taught'. Your posts give me a lot to think about, CB. Thank you.
I have read a lot about `empathy' over the years, and another school of thought is that `empaths' exist as children, and are often targeted by abusive parents to psychologically cater to them because of their `gift'.
I'm not really sure where my own views sit exactly, but both views resonate with me in different ways.
X Bella
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Right now, this whole question is a jumble in my mind.
Do you think a child comes pre-wired with empathy? Or is it a combination of genetic and environment?
I agree that empathy is foundational.
I grew up with Nmom and a highly spiritual dad. I think a large part of my question revolves around trying to figure out how and to what degree they as individuals influenced the shaping of my conscience. My dad taught us morals inspired by his spiritual beliefs and a conviction that following a high moral code would make us better people. Nmom taught no morals. With her it was more of a Morals de jour situation. When I think of it this way, it is as if my conscience was influenced by my dad. My voicelessness was the legacy of Nmom. It seems that voicelessness is a disease of the emotions more than a disease of the conscience. What do you think?
Dear Teartracks,
I agree with you on this; it makes a lot of sense. Do you sometimes think it would have been so nice just to have been raised by your Dad? That way you could have been taught the `good' things , without feeling the pressure and confusion of using your `goodness' just to cater to your mother. This exploitative dynamic kind of sullies things. Its makes empathy feel like a weakness, not a strength too.
I will read your latest post now, and see if I can get a sense of what your realy asking with all this.
love to you
X Bella
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Then I got to thinking that perhaps the two, conscience and voicelessness might be the same or minimally entertwined. This whole question has my mind in a twist right now.
This has lodged itself in my mind. Do you or anyone have any thoughts on it?
Dear TT,
I think understand what you are asking; are you wondering if `conscience' is a product of voicelessness, or kind of proportional to it somehow?
I think I can answer that with a confident `no', and its because I think our actions related to voiclessness are conditioned responses, in the Pavlovian sense. Thats is : `behavior A=reward, behaviour B=punishment'. In a way, these responses lack authenticity, because they do not reflect our inner reality. They are `forced' behaviours.
Empathy, which I believe is the root of conscience, is perhaps best looked at in two separate ways: there is `empathetic behaviour' which I believe is what CB is talking about, and I agree that this is something that would probably need to be taught.
But there is also `empathy, the experience' which is something intrinsic that is with us from birth. It is our ability to `internalise' another's feelings, and it does not necessarily result in empathetic behavior.
This, I believe, is the mechanism by which babies internalise their mother's emotions, wrongly blame themselves, resulting in anything from a sense of being responsible for other's feelings in adulthood, to completely shutting off from empathy (resulting in NPD or psychopathy).
I believe that Empathy, `the experience' is what guides our conscience, and Empathy `the behavior' is something we can be taught or conditioned to do, but does not necessarily reflect our true feelings.
X Bella
X Bella
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I didn't learn empathy or spirituality from either parent. I came that way. I have a long, detailed memory going back to about age 2 and this is definitely the way it was. After it rained I used to pick up worms off the drying sidewalk and put them back in the grass to please god. Nobody taught me that. Also I used to go outside to go 'see god.' I'd be all excited about it. The first time I went to church I was disappointed because I expected to get really up close and personal with god at god's house but it was all these grownups staring at some guy down in front. :lol: I was very mystical and felt really close to the creator all the time. My parents used to laugh about it. Yo, they should have been paying attention. :)
In my mind, my conscience is connected with not being really embarrassed of my life, after I die.
Now voicelessness - and self censoring, that has to do with the part of me that interacts with the world and other people. That's where the real work is. My .02.
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That is so cute, Iphi. I love the idea of you being cute little girl, rescuing the worms from drowning, and saying hello to God:)
X Bella
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Hmmmm....read the comments about empathy with much interest. Empathy is VERY, VERY important to me. Probably because I never got any.
But the question is, if empathy is not an inherited trait, but rather a learned one, how can it be that when growing up in a N household with other siblings, one sibling can be extremely empathetic and the others not?
Why are we, the victims of narcissists, so empathetic towards others and so cognizant of empathy and its importance even though we grew up in a family where empathy wasn't taught or rewarded?
Empathy is a topic I have addressed at length in counseling at well. I stressed to my counselor my need for empathy for others, including him. He was not capable of giving it to me and I have never really experienced it from anyone in my life even though I know I am a very empathetic person. In fact, I often can physically and emotionally feel the other person's pain. I want to take that pain away or find ways to help them.
So how to explain this difference in empathy levels in N families?
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Oh, Iphi... that's how I felt as a little girl about the outdoors and all the critters... like they were closer to God than people... especially adults.
I think that must be the leftovers from being originally created in God's image... so that even though sin tarnished the perfect picture, there are still those remnants in folks... especially in little ones.
The way I understand this life, we're spiritual creatures trying to manage in these earthly tents... for a season.
Anyhow, being amongst animals and taking care of them has always felt so rewarding to me. I don't know whether that's empathy, though....just... a more basic communion with creation as close as possible to the way God intended it to be.
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But the question is, if empathy is not an inherited trait, but rather a learned one, how can it be that when growing up in a N household with other siblings, one sibling can be extremely empathetic and the others not?
Why are we, the victims of narcissists, so empathetic towards others and so cognizant of empathy and its importance even though we grew up in a family where empathy wasn't taught or rewarded?
Dear sunblue,
I agree; empathy is with us from birth, and it can nurtured or suppressed. To what extent, I do not know, but I agree that different children in the same family have a different capacity for it. In my family, that was certainly the case. I was rescuing animals at the same age some other siblings were torturing them for fun. This was definitely not taught.
In our family empathy WAS rewarded, but only when shown to the N-parent. I think this is what Teartracks was getting at with her questions; I feel that she is wondering if this `rewarding' process causes conscience?
X Bella
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very interesting thoughts.
I think part of my empathy was shaped by a strong desire to NOT be like my N mother. I responded so well to people who were empathic to me so I wanted to be like them. I also think as victims we identify with other victims, they allow us feel our pain in another way. My youth was spent reading books about victim survival, the holocaust etc. Somewhere I decided that by being "empathic" or should I say being "helpful" I would in turn receive empathy, not necessirly true so I got involved in rescuing, controlling (which I perceived as helping). This set me up as perfect Nbait and of course the abuse I had received as a child continued throughout my life, thus rendering me voiceless. It's funny to describe myself as voiceless as I am a real talker but that is what I have been VOICELESS, unable to say what I want, who I am to myself rather than to the world. I think this is the kernel of voicelessness, not knowing who we really are. In some ways shaped like the N except rather than become heartless and cold I became the bleeding heart. Why one way rather than the other? Maybe somewhere along the line I was lucky and felt some level of love from someone and spent my life seeking it out. Maybe the difference is that Ns never even got this much and gave up on empathy and decided power was the way to go.
A thought just struck me maybe Ns have felt the same level of voicelessness........... are we the other side of the same coin?
Yesterday I remembered something and felt ashamed about it. Years ago, when I was married, my xfather in law lived in pretty poor conditions. When he was away one weekend my xH (not an N) and I cleaned his bedroom, painted it, made new curtains etc. I thought he would be so happy with it. He came home and was annoyed that we had done this and not having decorated his bedroom for about 20 years went and painted over what I had done with a disgusting colour. I see now that I had no right to do this without his permission. My intention was good but I was interfering, controlling etc. Needless to say I was angry with what he did, nothing matched AGAIN but heck it was his bedroom and his house and I had no right to do what I did no matter how well intentioned I was. Of course I went into the cycle of nothing I do is good enough, he did not see how helpful I was trying to be etc but I was crossing boundaries which were not my business. Strange I thought of this after all those years. Wish I could apologise to him, I really did not understand. He is dead now but hope he knows I am sorry for interfering with is life.
A contrite Axa
Axa
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Guilt, guilt, guilt....
I think since I was EXPECTED to be always doing something annoying or rotten, I felt guilt no matter WHAT I was doing. I fully believe that this is what my parents instilled in me. Here is one example I vaguely remember (sometimes I am not sure it is a memory, but how would I make this up????)
I was little - 3 or 4... I had a brush in my hand. I must have had a guilty look on my face, because my mother started asking if I had used the brush on the dog. I hadn't, but she insisted I did until I cried and (I am not sure) even decided just to admit it.
She loves the story that at 5 I did something wrong and "punished myself" by hiding in my room.
I lived in constant fear of doing something wrong. And throughout high school, and college, I always felt I was doing the wrong thing - no matter what it was.
I think, tt, it's from never having any clear rules. When the rules change daily, it is hard to follow them.
Rough subject. I have been looking at it and not ready to put this to paper, as it were.
Love, Beth
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Dear Beth,
I am glad that you wrote about this. We have to share what hurts us in order to heal. It is part of the "medicine" of healing.
I get the sense(I could be wrong) that you feel ashamed of this incident. WE take on their shame so effortlessly.
Janet always says to me,"It was HER fault-- not yours". I am seeing that truth-- very slowly. When you were treated badly as a kid, HOW could it "really" be your fault (if you think about it).
We take it on so effortlessly( and still do).
That is why I am not taking my M's pain for her anymore. She will have to be honest IF she wants a relationship with me( as my F chose to be). Honest means we can TELL who is the bully ,here- HER.
I am glad that you shared this. What a precious, sweet girl you were, Beth Love Ami,
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Ami,
Thank you for that response. Yes, I take on their shame. And I often feel shame for people when they don't... Do you ever get that feeling of wishing you could cover for someone when they do something hideous??? I don't feel it as much anymore, but I did for so long.
(((((Ami)))))))))
Love, Beth
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Dear Beth,
Not letting other people" sit" with their own painful emotions is part of our sickness. I used to be able to feel someone else's discomfort( when I was younger) and know that it was theirs and NOT mine.
Then as I got sicker,I was afraid of "bad" emotions. I think that I had to "eat them" like Pac Man.(I have stomach problems ,too)
I was the voracious eater of bad emotions so other people would not have them.
I don't know HOW my relationship with my M( where I had to absorb her abnormalities) transferred itself to other people--but it did.
I think that I am very afraid of any "bad" emotion such as anger, fear, shame or guilt.I just "eat them up" so they won't harm me ,I guess.
I think that it is a "selfish" response based on fear of me getting hurt-- somehow if I don't take them away.
I think it has something to do with not being able to protect myself when "emotions" go "bad" anywhere. I scoop them up so they won't hurt me. It is something like that ,I think. Somehow,it has to do with preserving myself. I am not sure completely, though. Love Ami
(((((((((((((((((((Beth))))))))))))))))))))))))
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So ,that is having a conscience,but choosing to do what you want even though you know it is wrong
I had a b/f who I think was a sociopath. That was a whole new ball game than an N.(YIKES, I could be in some ditch,now.)
Ami
Ami..... I'm not sure I follow here.
Are you saying you think sociopaths don't have the ability to tell right from wrong?
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Dear Lighter,
Storms recommended book about sociopaths describes them as not having a conscience. So, they could do wrong( hurt or even kill someone) and not feel guilty about it. Where a normal person feels badly if they hurt someone's feelings ,for example. A sociopath feels nothing.. That is how I read it.
Love Ami
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Back to the issue of empathy for a moment....
Personally, I do not think you are born with empathy. I think it can be learned. That's why I get so frustrated and even angry with people who do not demonstrate empathy. For me, empathy is a choice, just like kindness or generosity or helpfulness. My feeling is if you care enough about the other person, you can and should empathize with them. Because empathy is a way to show that caring. Empathy is not necessarily sympathy although often sympathy is offered as well. Rather, empathy is understanding, caring enough to take the time to understand what the other person is experiencing, and letting them know you understand their pain, acknowledge their pain and, hopefully, want to help them deal with that pain. Empathy is just soooo powerful. It is so validating to the person experiencing that pain. Think about it. When you're hurting, you're vulnerable and often feel alone. Empathy is a way of communicating to that person that they are not alone, that there is perhaps hope.
The other comment I had was regarding the term co-narcissist. I'm not familiar with that term regarding NPD. Is it another way to describe the co-dependent person? To me, co-narcissist would indicate that the person is also a narcissist, but the co-dependent is not. Could you offer me an example of this?
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Dear Sun,
I think that ' co- narcissist" is someone who is just unfortunate enough to be in the way when the big truck ( called an N) comes barreling down the street Love Ami
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Sun,
I think you are right. I know I worked very hard to teach my kids empathy. I think without this learned habit, it would be a dog -eat-dog world, because initially I think humans were primal and did not need empathy. Children (like our Ns) are completely without empathy. They want what is theirs and that is that. Their world is focused on self-preservation, as it need be. Adults should have learned that living in a society means respecting others... but the Ns are stuck in the childish vision of the world.
Love, Beth
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Let's see, tt:
I know I was voiceless in my will, in that I believed that no matter how I acted, there was a predetermined outcome.
I was voiceless in intellect because I learned to believe what was taught to me without questioning the source. That was considered "bad."
I was voiceless in emotion because I had been told what I was supposed to be feeling. (I know you are sad, but... - that assumption was forced on me).
I believe my moral reasoning might have been the least affected by them, once I grew up a bit. I was able to recognize what I thought was right and wrong alone to an extent, or I would be more like them.
My personality was affected, but not shaped by them. I think personality is innate and can be influenced, but not determined by environment.
Senses- I was told what I was supposed to like... (How can you NOT like that... I never knew that you didn't like {for the 20th time} ...). I think these also might be innate.
Totally subjective. Is that any help??? What an amazing question.
Love, Beth
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Hey tt,
I have been thinking of your question since you posted it.
My first thought was no they are not related – but I am rethinking this.
I see my conscience as the part of me that knows right from wrong. It is the part of me that is the keeper of the tenets by which I act towards other people. For example, one of the rules I live by is to do no harm, at all, unless absolutely necessary (eg., life-threatening situation). I have trouble stepping on an ant :roll:. If I do harm then it is unintentional and reparation must be made.
I believe that my particular brand of voicelessness arises, at its most basic, from fear and from not trusting myself. For me it arises out of a feeling place, which to me is different from conscience. Where I am most voiceless is in how I allow others to treat me.
Although is it different? Perhaps conscience develops out of emotions to eventually end up dissociated from emotion (thinking about the Freudian model here – where we are born ids, and develop a superego [a conscience]).
In this way, I think voicelessness may contribute to the development of conscience, but eventually, conscience ends up as an entity separate from voicelessness - but nonetheless has been profoundly impacted by voicelessness.
IOW, using this one rule that I have – to do no harm - perhaps this rule (my conscience) developed because of the early environment that I lived in. I knew how badly I felt at being treated the way I was, and I refused to treat others this way, as I did not want to create that negativity in another person. I also had absolutely no control over others and learned at a very early age in a very warped world that the only control I had was over myself. So perhaps, my conscience is “wrongly-shaped” as it is one-sided. Perhaps a “rightly- shaped” conscience allows for rules for both how you treat others and for how others may treat you.
I don’t know the answer – but what a thought-provoking question!
Peace
PS. If any of this makes sense it is a miracle – curse of the INTJ I think, can see it, but have a hard time putting it into words! (Also - haven't even started to think on the other variables you pointed out - will, intellect,...)
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Back to the issue of empathy for a moment....
Personally, I do not think you are born with empathy. I think it can be learned. That's why I get so frustrated and even angry with people who do not demonstrate empathy. For me, empathy is a choice, just like kindness or generosity or helpfulness. My feeling is if you care enough about the other person, you can and should empathize with them. Because empathy is a way to show that caring. Empathy is not necessarily sympathy although often sympathy is offered as well. Rather, empathy is understanding, caring enough to take the time to understand what the other person is experiencing, and letting them know you understand their pain, acknowledge their pain and, hopefully, want to help them deal with that pain. Empathy is just soooo powerful. It is so validating to the person experiencing that pain. Think about it. When you're hurting, you're vulnerable and often feel alone. Empathy is a way of communicating to that person that they are not alone, that there is perhaps hope.
The other comment I had was regarding the term co-narcissist. I'm not familiar with that term regarding NPD. Is it another way to describe the co-dependent person? To me, co-narcissist would indicate that the person is also a narcissist, but the co-dependent is not. Could you offer me an example of this?
Dear Sun,
I feel that you are describing `empathetic behaviour', rather than the `experience' of empathy, which is the internaisation of another's feelings.
From what I understand, empathy is with us from birth as a survival need, used as kind of barometer for measuring our primary care-givers feelings. This is the mechanism by which babies internalise their mother's emotions which can result in core wounds, such as shame and survival fears.
Its believed to be how psychopaths and N's come about. They `shut off' their empathy (for their primary care-giver) because the internalised shame and fear they experience is too intense, and cannot be mentally processed.
X Bella
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Dear Sun,
I feel that you are describing `empathetic behaviour', rather than the `experience' of empathy, which is the internaisation of another's feelings.
From what I understand, empathy is with us from birth as a survival need, used as kind of barometer for measuring our primary care-givers feelings. This is the mechanism by which babies internalise their mother's emotions which can result in core wounds, such as shame and survival fears.
Its believed to be how psychopaths and N's come about. They `shut off' their empathy (for their primary care-giver) because the internalised shame and fear they experience is too intense, and cannot be mentally processed.
X Bella
Thank you for this explanation, Bella. Now I'm pretty sure that my earlier position on this - believing that no one is born with empathy - was wrong.
There is definitely a difference between empathetic experience and behaviour... kinda like the difference between hearing and listening.
Just thinking... feels to me like I have to shut off empathy for my mother and others like her in order to continue behaving with empathy for those with whom the experience would have some meaning. Just at this moment, it feels like an either/or situation.
Thanks again.
Love,
Carolyn
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On the subject of sociopaths....
I was unfortunate enough to be involved with someone who turned out to be both N and a true sociopath. What was said earlier is true. They have no conscience. They know what is right and wrong. They know the "wrong" will hurt others but they simply dont care. Essentially, they have no heart. THey can see that something they do or say hurts you, but it doesn't affect them in any way. A true sociopath is a very dangerous person. Because they have no conscience they not only are relentness in their damaging emotional behaviors with you, but they think nothing of committing crimes, physically hurting others or engaging in seriously damaging behaviors. They lie incessantly. They engage in extreme behaviors----sex, drugs, alcohol. They commit crimes. All without any thought to any other person but themselves.
When you combine the sociopath diagnosis with the N diagnosis (which is not uncommon), you have a very dangerous combination.
With the N, they have a conscious in that they know what's right and wrong and they know the wrong hurts another person. However, they only are affected by another's feelings when it affects them directly. They are self driven. THus, if they say something to their spouse which hurts their feelings, the N is only affected when the spouse distances from them or doesn't give them what they want. In both cases, the sociopath and the N, it's important to remember that in their minds, the world revolves around them. Other people are only in this world to serve their needs and purposes.