Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Poppy Seed on October 05, 2007, 11:37:08 PM
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Axa thought maybe I should write about the "shame" I am struggling with. So, Axa, your wish is my command!!! :D
You know, I don't have anything wise or witty or helpful to say about it. I know it is in my head. It creeps into most of my thoughts and accompanies most of my actions. I feel guilty for how I cut the veggies and badly about how my towels are folded. I know that the simplest things can throw me into a depression or a fit of despair and I battle the despair almost everyday. It is frustrating and oppressive. I thought it was PTSD. I thought it may be biological....cuz my periods were so whacked and my hormones feel so out of balance.
I was praying the other night about why I am not feeling better...after all the working and trying.........and the answer came very simply. SHAME. I knew I had some shame inside but I didn't recognize the extent or the breadth. I started to study shame a bit and learned a few things. Maybe others here have better insight into it.
Here are some things I have read in the last little while that illustrate better what I think I am feeling...........
Shame manifests itself physically in a wide variety of forms. The person may hide their eyes; lower their gaze; blush; bite their lips or tongue; present a forced smile; or fidget. Other responses may include annoyance, defensiveness, exaggeration or denial. Because the affect of shame often interferes with our ability to think, the individual may experience confusion, being at a loss for words, or a completely blank mind.
Shame is often experienced as the inner, critical voice that judges whatever we do as wrong, inferior, or worthless. Often this inner critical voice is repeating what was said to us by our parents, relatives, teachers and peers. We may have been told that we were naughty, selfish, ugly, stupid, etc. We may have been ostracized by peers at school, humiliated by teachers, treated with contempt by our parents. Paradoxically, shame may be caused by others expecting too much of us, evoking criticism when our performance is less than perfect. Some authority figures are never satisfied with one's efforts or performance, they are critical no
matter what. Unfortunately, these criticisms become internalized, so that it is our own inner critical voice that is meting out the shaming messages, such as: "You idiot, why did you do that?," "Can't you do anything right?,"or " You should be ashamed of yourself," etc.
Clearly these shaming inner voices can do considerable damage to our self esteem. These self criticisms, that we are stupid, selfish, a show-off, etc., become, in varying degrees, how we see ourselves. For some of us, the inner critical judge is continuously providing a negative evaluation of what we are doing, moment-by-moment. As mentioned before, the inner critic may make it impossible for one to do anything right, telling you that you are too aggressive, or not aggressive enough, that you're too selfish, or that you let people walk all over you.
I also read some stuff here at this website and simply cried and cried. Especially about the part that says: People who've been deeply shamed
need to be fully loved and accepted and valued!
http://helpyourselftherapy.com/topics/shame.html
Getting out of shame based thinking is my next big climb. I feel like if I could rework this part of my thinking....my whole life would change.
I also want to say that this topic is a very tender one for me....one of those open wound kind of things......
Poppyseed
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Just one more feeling......being not wanted and not wantable. This is a big one for me.
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I have learned that I must do three things:
1) Experience deep healing in my self concept.
2) Experience deep healing in my relationship with God.
3) Experience deep healing in my relationship with others.
I also need to stay away from people who don't treat me well. I need to stop asking them to treat me better. That appears as weakness to them. I need to hold them accountable and myself accountable for the time I spend with them. I need to allow the good things people offer me to sink in. I need to believe them without allowing any victimization or manipualation. I need to monitor what I am thinking after someone has treated me poorly and the thoughts that I may be thinking about the event. I need to make sure I don't characterize my mistakes as defects in who or what I am. I need to associate with people who will and do value me and accept it and show appreciation for these people.
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Dear Poppyseed,
That is so painful; hugs to you. At least you know what you're dealing with now.
I think you cut to the heart of what shame is all about; its repeating someone else's negative script in your head, continuing the abuse that someone else started long ago.
I am sorry for your pain, Pops.
X Bella
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((((((((((((((Warm Hugs Pops)))))))))))))))
Pops, do you think shame and guilt are the same or maybe first cousins?
Thanks for starting this thread. I'll be reading and learning.
tt
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Dear Poppy,
(((((((((((((((((Poppy))))))))))))). I have much to contribute ---- -unfortunately.I just want to think about it today and get back . Love Ami
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You are needed and wanted here..... ((Poppy))
You are needed and loved by your children.
Setting boundaries, however uncomfortable, is a great step to nurturing and protecting yourself.
It also gives you something else to think about, outside your normal critical thought pattern towards yourself.
New habits are hard won.
You see what the dynamics involved are..... which is important in figuring out what you should be doing, then making a plan.
I still say it's all about pretending..... doing things for ourselves that aren't comfortable.
If we wait till we feel worthy....... it's not soon enough.
I still like to stop and think to myself...... "what would Sheriff Andy Taylor do?" heh...... it focuses me on something besides the little habitrail in my head and helps me view things differently.
It's a shifting.....
It's stepping outside of ourselves and viewing things differently.
It's also very difficult to do and takes practice.....
Whatever becomes habit becomes pleasure.
So important to keep a journal so you don't lose focus or get too confused by all the moving parts.
What you've accomplished and don't want to lose sight of.....
what you want to work on, that seems important to your healing journey now....
what you want to work on, later..... down the road..... after you've made a couple other more important changes.
We are creatures of habit.
That works against us at first.....
then,
if we're diligent and mindful.... it works for us.
Intentions are everything.
Begging our morning with silence.... focused on what we want for today..... for ourselves.
You're aware of your thoughts and how destructive they are for you.
You know you want to replace them.
Give yourself permission to STOP those feelings and give to yourself...... like you would to your child.
Give yourself kindness in thought and actions..... forgive yourself for the thoughts that aren't healthy then turn to the thoughts you'd like to replace them with..... with kindness in your heart.
There is a little child inside of you who feels these things.... IMO at least.
She's trying to be heard.
She needs to be heard.
I think it's shower time...... get comfortable and sink into the pain and let her talk about all of it.
If it doesn't come out.... it will haunt you when you fold towles, when you cook, when you communicate with others...... it comes out in all sorts of ways.... like being haunted.
And I suppose we are being haunted.
Let her finally talk about it..... then teach her better ways.... show her what's real NOW.
Nurture and guide into mindful thoughts and self care.
So much to digest and re learn.
So much harder to re learn bc we have to un learn too.
On top of that..... you have real shaming controlling people mucking about with you AND your husband and children.
How in the world do you focus on all these moving parts?!?!?
Begin in the morning... with mindful focused thoughts about your intentions for the day.
Write these thoughts down in your journal.
Write when you're feeling anxiety and when you're feeling anger or fear.
Write when you're feeling better.
Then go back and re read it all.
Write some more.
Focus on your intentions and remember to stop during your day and enjoy those things you are seeing, smelling, touching and feeling in the moments.
Really stop and be present in the moment with your children at least 15 mindful minutes in a day, if you can.
Eventually..... some of these things start to seem familiar and become habits.
I guess the next hurdle is to fight the tendency to slack up a bit.... so grateful are we to feel this respite... we just want to HAVE it and enjoy it.
But... alas.... must stay focused and keep journaling and remain mindful about our path and what we wish to change and own for ourselves.
You're teaching your children these lessons too..... though it's not aparent to them.
They're affected and they benefit when mama's more centered and learning.... growing.
It's wonderful..... even though it's scary as hell..... it's still a teaching opportunity and better to look forward to doing better.... than fear staying where we are?
Sorry so long..... I feel better it's out.
Thanks for this opportunity to post on this topic.... very powerful subject for me as well: )
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Dear Poppy,
I am facing the shame for the lie that it is. It dies hard.
Here's a little exercise on overcoming shame:
http://freeinchrist.truepath.com/manna/S8.htm (http://freeinchrist.truepath.com/manna/S8.htm)
The seven pages which come before it are worth reading, too.
Love to you,
Carolyn
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Pops,
Here's some more of what I've been working through...
Don't want to overload you with stuff, but some of it may be very helpful. Only please know that there's no need to respond to me about any of it... I just want to offer it out here for whatever it's worth.
This is what I've written up in my own notes so far... more of an outline format:
I've been reading this book preview -
Shame: Theory, Therapy, Theology by Stephen Pattison
http://books.google.com/books? id=CIhEhpLR6qEC&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=bypassed+shame&source=
web&ots=SZPyd1XLQP&sig=Aycll9im-ODBwaq2BxbHB0o3hCc#PPA94,M1 (http://books.google.com/books? id=CIhEhpLR6qEC&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=bypassed+shame&source=
web&ots=SZPyd1XLQP&sig=Aycll9im-ODBwaq2BxbHB0o3hCc#PPA94,M1)
On pg. 94, the author notes a couple examples from his own life of what it means
to have a personality shaped by a pervasive sense of shame and being ashamed.
He says that as he writes his books, lectures, or papers for publication, he finds it
very difficult to write down the words... it feels like "every word has to be
squeezed out of me, over my own dead body, so to speak...."
On page 96, he suggests that it's plausible to suggest that "any experience that
constitutes a rejection, objectification, or boundary invasion of the person that
induces a sense of social or individual worthlessness, alienation, or abandonment
- if severe enough, long enough, or repeated enough - is likely to contribute to
the development of a chronic sense of shame.
(For me, I feel that this cycle of rejection began the very first time I cried, as
an infant, if not pre-natal... so now it's requiring a series of conscious choices to
continually place it back where it belongs, day by day and sometimes moment by
moment.
Pg. 110 "Individuals who are shame-prone, shame-vulnerable or chronically
shamed in terms of their identity and personality often perceive themselves to be
weak, inferior, ineffective, defiled, defective, unlovable, diminished, depleted
failures. Frequently, they will base their reactions, assumptions, or 'scripts' about
life upon these perceptions."
"The experience of shame, with its sense of exposure, inferiority, confusion and
weakness, is such a painful one that individuals learn to defend against it to avoid
experiencing it: 'almost any affect feels better than shame' (Nathanson 1992:312).
(I feel sure that this shame has been the driving force behind my own addictive and
compulsive behaviors, along with the entire motivational mindset of doing, doing, doing in
order to accrue value as a person.)
Pg. 111 gets into the four basic defensive scripts against shame, construed as the compass of shame.
Withdrawal is at the north point of this compass, avoidance at the south;
the defence of 'attack self' at the eastern point, opposed at the western point by 'attack other'.
This section is well worth reading... but it's too much to type up here.
Chapter 7 (pg. 154 of the preview) gets into dealing with shame - the task of integration... the concept of being recognized as distinct, and yet belonging within the community.
"When individuals experience the 'too-littleness' of isolation they may experience shame. But they may also experience it if their individuality and its boundaries are overwhelmed by social incursion..." (for me, this was religious training).
"The dual causation of shame by too much isolation or too much social attention may be compared with Shengold's observation that the shame-related condition of individual soul murder is the product of either deprivation, or of trauma in which a person is over-stimulated and overwhelmed." (I experienced both - one at home and the other at church-school.)
"Shame manifests itself in individuals as a painful sense of self-consciousness, self-alienation, depletion, defectiveness, defilement, weakness, inferiority, and inarticulacy." (*Voiclessness!*)
Individuals feels thrust back into themselves, unwanted and unwantable, both by others and themselves. They defend against the sense of shame by developing habitual scripts and defenses which can then become fixed reactions or personality traits..." (Wow!)
Check out the epilogue, too...I know that angel of judgment of which the author speaks, but he has no authority in my life... or yours.
Some more excellent tools for healing shame: http://www.coping.org/innerhealing/shame.htm (http://www.coping.org/innerhealing/shame.htm)
Right now I'm working on the aspect of "pulling-in behaviours", here: http://www.coping.org/lowesteem/pull.htm (http://www.coping.org/lowesteem/pull.htm)-
it's cool how this site shows the positive potential wrapped up in what may have been, to date, negative personality traits.
Offers me alot of hope.
Love to you,
Carolyn
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Poppyseed - I am so thankful that you had the courage to write about shame. I think it is one of the most damaging and underacknowledged aspects leading to damaged lives. For years the only book I had on the subject was Bradshaw's book which I thought was masterful in describing toxic shame but lacking in what to do about it.
One of the things that has always struck me is that shame has completely robbed me of the ability to be productive. I have not given up and will not but I am angry about the unfairness of a life desimated by shame because I had the great misfortune to be born into my family and to make it doubly bad it was a prominent family to many mistakenly thought was a privilege.
Shame is so difficult to overcome because it is a thief that hides deep in the unconscious and subconscious and then when exposed it's tenacles seem to have tenacious strength to hold on. Like a hydra it seems to be immune from defeat.
Should any of us find our way out of this wretched maze we much find a way to help others out as well. It took me so long to understand that I have been held hostage by shame that half my life has pasted me by. But I refuse to give up on the rest of my life. There must be a way out and I am sure that we can find it somehow.
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Dearest Poppy,
Thank you for starting this thread. I think it is the core of much of my unhappiness and self destructive experiences. I am not worthy, don;t I know this one. I am unloveable.
I struggle with shame voice daily but counter it by addressing it out loud - no I am not stupid, I am human and made a mistake. Addressing the shame voice is part of my daily grind. The results to date are that I can stand in front of a mirror and say "well Axa you are looking pretty good today.......... that was a good piece of work, Axa,........ for me it takes constant affirmation from myself. I figured out that there is no point in going out there looking for love until I find that love in myself first. So I struggle daily with addressing the shame voice by my adult self and softly nurturing that shamed little girl who has run amok in the world.
There are many things I will address in other posts here but have to go out. Again thank you Poppy for having the courage to trust us with your words.
gigantic hugs,
axa
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There was a very good thread from before---
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=4011.0 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=4011.0)
that might help those not around then
Izzy
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Hello everyone,
I am sorry I haven't responded sooner. It has been a busy weekend and I have been running hither and yon!! On the upside, I got to spend my IKEA gift card...$80.00. I had never been there before. What a store!!!
Izzy,
Thanks for nudge to look back. I felt a little redundant posting this because I know this topic must have been talked about a million times. Thanks for your insight as I learn from the ground up.
Axa,
thanks for the hug and for the nudge to look more directly at this topic. It has taken center stage for me. As I went to bed last night, all I could think was how great I would feel if I could slay this dragon. XO to you. We will make it through! We have to! SOOO looking forward to your ideas and comments.
Ami,
Thanks for your contributions lately. It feels better than before. Thanks so much. I feel conditioned to be rejected ... just like you feel conditioned to be the garbage pail. It is a crazy series of events in my life that have led me to this point. But, it feels good to finally be ready to lay it down. Sometimes I feel so much shame about the rejection, and so much shame that I can't do the "obvious" and not feel it. It is crazy. I do need to take control of the these thoughts and deal with them as toxins. And get them out of my head.
GS,
I so appreciate your comments. Thank you. It is a wretched maze, isn't it? So hard to find our way out! I feel that it has hijacked my life. It has kept me from trying things, from meeting people, from reaching goals, and from being myself. It has given me a false sense of self and caused me to hide in my voicelessness. I am amazed now, that so much of my current state is because of shame. It is astonishing to me. I hadn't given it enough attention before. I have worked on so many aspects of my pain, and it seems that I can see it better with other issues out of the way.
You are strong. And I feel your courage and determination. We will get though! We will! Bansai!!!!!
Carolyn,
Thanks my dear!! Thank you! I am about half way through the stuff you posted. Feel like I am looking into a picture of myself as I read. I am a poster child for shame it seems! Ha! I really want to concentrate on what to do to eliminate the patterns of thinking. I try so hard and it does die hard!!! I am glad you are finding relief.
Lighter,
You infuse me with vision and direction and strength every time you post!! Thank you for being someone I can rely on. You help me see through the fog. Can't say thank you enough. I used to journal a lot. But I would go back and read and hate that those feelings came out of me. I couldn't bare to look any longer and so I quit. Now, I may start again. I have been thinking about it for a while. I am doing better with prayer.....talking through my thoughts with God and asking for the thought not to return. Asking for help in believing the truth about my goodness and my wantableness (is that a word??).
Love to you all. -- Poppyseed
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Ok. A lot of what I am reading is about going back to the inner child and helping the child feel the pain of the past and that this process is suppose to heal. Well, I feel frustrated by this. I feel like I have done this on my own and in therapy a million times over. And the pain is still there. This part feels like a impossible maze! I have looked at every aspect of my pain and every aspect of what I felt as a child and why. I am done with that. It is over. Much of my pain and shame comes because of recent events, anyway. I know that I was programmed to shame myself from birth, but I feel frustrated with the feeling for being trapped. Sometimes I wonder if it is like devil snare from Harry Potter. Maybe if you struggle it kills you more, but if you hold still or shine light, it will let go of you. Hmmmmm........
Poppy
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Poppy shame is my problem. Thank you for posting. Shame and abandonement.
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I go back through years of journals and wonder who that person was.
She's so different than who I am today.
I think you should journal again.... go back and read then write about what you see.... what scares or upsets you.
(get in the shower and rage and keen like a wild animal... sink into the sadness... remeber?)
If it's still bothering you.... then it's not been processed yet and by processed I mean completely felt and mourned and let out into the light and turned over and examined.
That's when you can put it down.
That's when the part of you that grew up conditioned to feel shame..... can put it down.
That child is in there and she wants to say it...... it comes out in your life..... everywhere.....
in all sorts of ways.
Go back and journal again.
Know that anything you put there won't hurt you.....
it's part of you and everyone has stuff.
::sigh::
So many moving parts.... not only do you have to deal with whats in front of you..... your inlaws et....
but you have to deal with what's behind and in you as well.
Very difficult to do and most people can't do it.
Inviting pain isn't what we're engineered to do.
But that's the way to feeling better, IMO.
I think you can do it, Poppy.
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I had such a healing experience yesterday.It relates to shame so I wanted to share it here.
I was really down ,yesterday .I made myself do some of the inner child workbook. It said that we all have an "Adult Child inside us. The Adult Child took on all the messages from our parents , society, books, movies etc..about how we should be.
Our Adult Child functions in two ways--- either the codependent or the narcissist( or both,usually). There were two long checklists of behaviors. One was all the ways that we try to get people to like us using codependent behaviors--like being nice, too giving, too caretaking, seductive, approval seeking, self effacing etc. The other way that we try to "control" people to get them to do what we want is narcissistic behaviors such as tantrums, whining, manipulating,pouting, coercing, arguing etc. We all do both types of behaviors.
How we got this way was that we rejected our true "inner child.. Inside us is a layer of feelings ( pre verbal ). When we were treated badly by our environment we ASSUMED that we( this deep level of feelings) was BAD.We shoved out true self away. So, we rejected it and tried to 'please' or 'control". THAT is how we got those 'Adult Child" behaviors.
Anyway, I could see how my whole life(now) is just WAITING for the outside to meet my needs. I am one giant "waiting". I look back and all my "successes" dissappointed me. All my relationships left me empty. WHY am I still waiting for .........PRINCE CHARMING. Prince Charming can be anything from the outside--anything.It can be a new dress, plastic surgery, a new car, an affair, a marriage, a house, new hobby, --anything that I think will fill up the inside.
The "lie" of it is that the substance or person DOES fill the inside for a short time. I have heard that this is what happens with drugs like heroin. The first high is so incredible that you chase that first high for the rest of the time ,but never get it. Supposedly,heroin is like the best type of "mother's love".
After the checklists, they had a list of characteristics.. You checked which you had . They were traits like feel worthless, feel less than ,etc. I saw how I 'took" on what my M told me.
Then they had an exercise where you picture yourself as a young child. What messages did you have inside about yourself?
I could just feel back when I was 8. or 9. I went to day camp in the summer. I was "developed " at this age. It was horrible. I was so ashamed of my body. My M was horrified.More than this , though, I felt the weight of my M's happiness on me. I was supposed to make it all right for my M. .I think that she thought I was supposed to fill the role of making her"feel good" and "look good". I was a huge failure.I felt like a dirty,messy, fat," can't do anything right", bothersome, annoying, bratty failure.I had a heaviness that I carried with me all day. I hated day camp. My M always wanted to get rid of me. I was gone from 7 A.M ( when the bus picked me up) to 6 P.M. ( when the bus brought me home).
I felt like a huge bag of "trouble' .I felt like I was simply a huge, annoying, messy bother who could never make my mother proud. I always was swimming in failure. My M was angry and I could never seem to perform to make have " the good kid" she wanted . I pictured some thin, nicely dressed little girl who was quiet and polite. That would be the "good kid" who would make my M happy.
If I asked for a hug,she would say,"YOUOOOOO need too much love.". If I asked for anything she would say,"YOUOOO are too dependent."
I really just felt like a fat,useless, bad blob.I needed too much love and I was too dependent.
I was so ashamed of my body that I would not take off my jacket at camp,even if they played softball and I was sweating like a pig.The counselor would say,"Don't you want to take that jacket off?"
I remember the feelings as deep worthlessness-..They felt like heavy, heavy bags of garbage that I lugged with me all day. I was just "bad" I could never be "right" no matter how hard I tried. My M knew that I was 'bad" and I was.What really made me bad was needing too much love and being too dependent.
Last night,I connected with the deep decision that I made that I was 'bad". I see that it was a NPD
mother's way of viewing a child. I really(on her mind) was supposed to make her happy.I still am(in her mind). I was born to make her happy( feel good about herself) and to make her look good. I tried it all. If trying could make it come true,it WOULD have come true. I gave my whole life to her. It was not enough. Nothing was ever enough b/c I did it. If I did it,it was flawed,just like she was.
That was how I became so ashamed(part of it anyway) Love Ami
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I just wanted to add that all people( according to my book0 pushed down the deep feeling level(inner child). However,I think that if you had an N parent, you pushed it down deeper and probably "worse". So, the climb out is deeper and harder. However, it would seem that you COULD get out.It is just a deeper excavating of "lies" and distortions.
It is simply allowing yourself to face the lies and replace them with the truth.The truth is that we have an inherent value as God's creatures.
The "medicine" is simple. However,it is a painstaking step by step process. Somehow. you feel hopeless about ever getting better,but you can't listen to that. The only"problem", really,is just believing "lies". What do you think? Ami
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I know that I was programmed to shame myself from birth, but I feel frustrated with the feeling for being trapped. Sometimes I wonder if it is like devil snare from Harry Potter. Maybe if you struggle it kills you more, but if you hold still or shine light, it will let go of you. Hmmmmm........
Poppy
Dear Poppy,
What you said here about the devil snare really registers with me!
I am feeling quite strongly that the past can become such a trap - like a quicksand - so that all of the kicking and flailing only serves to get me more desperately entrenched.
It seems likely to me that all of the past review which has been intellectually processed does need to be released via that keeling and howling, Lighter-style.
Think of the Wailing Wall in Israel...
I did some of that in a dream the other night... woke myself up... and instead of feeling embarrassed and drained, it left me unburdened and relieved... because, I believe, by the grace of God, I chose to allow it to have that effect. It was awful and terrible... but I saw it gone! It was like the circle of agony was shortstopped and became a line flowing out, instead. No poetry in that expression, but to me it was lovely.
And something else, Pops. Each and every determination we make to take a stand for what is true and right, there will be attacks. In my little corner of the world, a heavy siege began when I quit smoking... and it's not over yet. Strange things.... now the tip of one of my fingers is doubly-swollen and hot, with no visible wound (I think a bit of rose thorn is lodged in there)... so back to the doc again.
But this time, no fear, no dread,... not even annoyance, really. Although it doesn't "feel" good, the irony hasn't escaped me... and even makes me smile. So you know... the devil can toss out as many tacks as he wants onto the road of my life, but I am not going to allow him to stop me in my tracks again. Not ever. Every single obstacle is nothing but an opportunity to look to the Lord Jesus for strength and encouragement and direction. There is no power on earth or in the heavenlies which can prevent us from reaching our destination when we keep our eyes on Him. Now that's a foundation on which we can stand firm!
With love to you Sis,
Carolyn
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Dear Carolyn,
So you got over your fear of the doctor AND the dentist? Where do I send the award plaque?Let's have a ceremonial dinner---Will you come? Ami
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I just have to say that today after facing what "shame " my M put on me b/c I could not "make her happy", I have such a depression weighing on me. I am not going to run away from it----only to exercise(Lighter-- you didn't see that).
I just feel the weight of what she did( and is still doing to me). She put the weight of all her happiness on me. She is STILL angry that I am not sacrificing my whole being at her alter so she can feel good.
It is really overwhelming to face.
She is in a primal rage that I am not going along with her program.. EVEN when I went along with the program ,she hated me. However,I guess that she was happy to have the power to destroy someone.
This is so freakin" BLEH that it is not funny.It is so hard to face these things.
However,if I don't face them, they will destroy me with "addictions"--Right? Can anyone understand what I am saying? Love Ami-
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The other thing that I see is Maria is angry (codependent) that I am not taking better care of her. I have given her thousands of dollars( my H does not know). She married a dead beat guy.It was very,very dumb on her part. She married him after knowing him for 3 weeks. She was trying to get away from another drug addicted guy. However,at least the drug addicted guy worked.
She is angry that I am not giving her more time , attention and probably money. I can only do so much. Now,I know what it feels like on the other side when person wants me to "fix" them,in a sense.
This makes me realize that no one can fix me ,either.
LIFE is just BLEH-- Ami
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AMi,
I SOOO see what you are saying. I can't go back into my past.....but I think I can hear that inner child voice come when I set a boundary or when I do something good for myself. The shame just comes and comes!! It is crazy. Cool part is, I think I can see the pattern. I think that those are the moments when the parenting of self and the replacing is so crucial. Is that what you are doing too? Sounds like it. I know where and why I have shame. Now it is time to say....no one more day.....not one more minute. I am so at the bottom.......that I am determined to go up. The old way of coping just isn't satisfying to me anymore. All of my repeated trying to make it work ( I am referring to the list of codep/narc behaviors you listed above. The pleasing, manipulating, etc), has to stop. I am feeling peaceful that I don't have to try in that way anymore. It is feeling good to see that I am getting traction when I stop and confront the shameful thought and use my energies to believe the truer thing. Hard! Holy smokies! You are not kidding. But I am determined. Thanks for your input. XXOO. We ARE making it!! , you know?
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Ami.... I don't understand why I never hear what you're doing to feel better.
ARE you doing anything to feel better?
Sinking into the sadness should be a temporary state.... then you begin building things in your life that lift you up, (not just your butt at the gym; )
Building.... sinking.... building.... they should be partners.... ebbing and flowing but working hand in hand.
You and Maria seem to be locked into some kind of co dependant agony where you both have unspoken expectations of each other and no understanding.
Of course, that's from where I'm sitting and must be taken with a grain of salt. For all I know.... you two have it figured out and what do I know?
I guess it's time to start stating what your expectations are of each other, if you're going to remain each others real life confidants and life coaches.
Does she attend that support group with you?
I'm guessing neither of you are going.
Why not and can you not find something that takes you outside your head for a while.....
focuses you on activities that lift you up and carry into your normal daily activities as catalyst?
Time to broaden your horizons, IMO.
Reading self help books is great, necessary.... wise and we can use that new information.
Now you need to apply it IRL.
You can't fix Maria.
She can't fix you.
Can you two DO something that builds your spirits?
I'm thinking along the lines of school for her and a job helping people for you.
Helping people seems to be something your driven to do on the board...... would it interest you to build on that IRL?
What would happen if you did?
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Dear Lighter,
I have to trust my own timing . Right now, I am feeling such an aching sadness. I have faced that I was used b/c of my M's selfishness.I know that I am on the right track b/c I feel more 'real".
In healing,I have to follow my own gut as far as inner and outer endeavors.
Now, I am doing both,My inner is needed b/c I cannot heal codependent behaviors by ANY outside factor--not school, friends, working,volunteering etc.
Inner has to be healed by inner( as I see it ).
We can differ in many things and still be friends, Lighter.. If your way is working for you ,Ligher,I am very happy for your success. I have done most things in the outside world that anyone could do and it did not work for me.. So, I will follow my own inner leading. I have to follow my gut-- where it leads. It is leading me in to the inner child modality ,right now. I will go inner until the inner is healed.
Then,I won't need to anymore. Then,I will be healed and then have much to offer others( as I see it).
Anyway, Today,I am just facing this truth. I was simply used as a means to make someone else happy and look good(my M).
I feel deeply, deeply sad to be facing it.However,not facing it meant that I was taking the "shame" ( her shame) on myself.
I just hurt right now. It is a lot to face. I think of people who had to face sexual abuse--how they were just treated as dirty rags. I am facing deep pain,but I am not alone.
I will just keep trying to face the truth and accept the promise of freedom at the end Love Ami
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Dear Lighter,
I guess what I am trying to say,in a nice way, is that if you are trying to tell me some version of 'Go out and do something and you will feel better", I would prefer that you do not respond to my posts on these subjects.
It is not at all helpful to me at all.. Thank you . Ami
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The other thing that I see is Maria is angry (codependent) that I am not taking better care of her. I have given her thousands of dollars( my H does not know). She married a dead beat guy.It was very,very dumb on her part. She married him after knowing him for 3 weeks. She was trying to get away from another drug addicted guy. However,at least the drug addicted guy worked.
She is angry that I am not giving her more time , attention and probably money. I can only do so much. Now,I know what it feels like on the other side when person wants me to "fix" them,in a sense.
This makes me realize that no one can fix me ,either.
LIFE is just BLEH-- Ami
Wow! This is really telling! And it makes me feel like the push and pull I feel from my IL's and my mother. Most of the flack I have gotton since joining my H's family is because I don't take care of them the RIGHT WAY and haven't taken care of their son better. To them this codep is Christian love. I grew up refusing to take care of my mother. Pushing her to take care of herself. She hated me for it. And she missed out on having a relationship with me because of it. It was extremely selfish position for her to take and WAY TOO HEAVY a burdan for a child like me to carry. My IL's want me to take care of the autistic children by making mine available without considering our needs. They want us happy and jumping to their every wish and need (without being told -- they mind read. I was bad cause I refused to mind read them.)
I know my situation is different than yours, but I learned that all my caretaking of my H just helped him stay in his addiction. He lost 27 years of his life and I helped him loose 9 years of it. Because I insisited on fixing -- mending and pretending, as I call it now. The second I said NO MORE was the moment he started to learn to stand on his own and solve his own probs. I help him now, but only when it is supportive to his own responsible process. Life is just BLEH when we do this stuff. You are absolutely right. I know you love Maria and it seems she loves you. Sounds like you are doing the right thing by saying no more money, etc. Those things only enable her to make the same unproductive choices she always makes. I think you can love her best by NOT giving the the fixing stuff. But pointing her towards her own strengths and resources. I understand that this may be scary because perhaps she may withdraw her friendship or give you flack for not doing what you SHOULD do. I don't know how she will react. I am guessing the first reactions won't be so good. But the enabling can only serve to slowly undermine the love you do have for each other.
Love, Poppy
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Alright Ladies. Back to your corners.
Let's get back to the delightful subject of SHAME! Ok???????
(love love, goo goo, smile smile, calm soothing music....)
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Dear Poppy,
The main thing for me see the truth of my OWN codependent behaviors.
Last night,I saw,for the first time HOW I carried all this shame . I was used my whole life. I carried the label of "bad" b/c I could not make it better for my M. Even today, she is mad at me for not "making HER happy".
I just faced it last night. It is HUGE.
I am really in shock about it, for the moment.
.Right now in the 'meantime,it is a mean time" Love Ami
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Dear Poppy,There are no "corners" My viewpoint is that we all get out and do lots of things .If doing things(WHATEVER they are) would help us heal shame, we should be healed now.
I think that we are trying to help each other her-Right? So, I am expressing that point of view ,for myself only .It is not a fight or an altercation in any way. Ami
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Ami,
The main thing for me see the truth of my OWN codependent behaviors. SO COOL!! Me too....ouch, ouch, painful ouch! :lol:
And your shame is because your "badness" made her unhappy? Yes? Like we had the power to make someone else happy in the first place. Now that is crazy!!
That is the case with me and my mother. I wouldn't MAKE her happy. And so....and so....the shame.
she is mad at me for not "making HER happy".
Are you referring to Maria or your mother??
And I guess I wonder, if it is your mother, why do you feel shocked? Is there anything that could shock you coming from her? Doesn't all the reacting shocked to the new revelations wear you out? I guess I am wondering why you don't just roll your eyes.
I get the "mean time" thing.
Pops
ps. I know things are pretty tame between you and lighter. Conflict starts with sparks and you two are sparkin'. I just can't handle anymore board conflict. It is too taxing on me. Understand? And this thread is really kinda important to me. That's all.
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Poppy,
Life has conflict. If I express my point of view, that is not" conflict'. If you don't express your self( any one) ,you are codependent. See what I mean?There are two alternatives -- express yourself and have integrity or "stuff it" and be 'nice"
We HAVE to be able to state our truths. It is good....,not bad. There is really not anything to be afraid of if I(or anyone) nicely makes a request like I did..
If my style of healing is not right for you, there is no problem at all in that. Why should we have to see things the same?
.That is all each of us must do-- find our own way Ami
PS Are you rolling your eyes about your in laws?. That is why I am not "rolling my eyes".
'
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I just hurt right now. It is a lot to face. I think of people who had to face sexual abuse--how they were just treated as dirty rags. I am facing deep pain,but I am not alone.
I will just keep trying to face the truth and accept the promise of freedom at the end Love Ami
I'm confused Ami.
You're bouncing around between your mother, Maria and now sexually abused people and I'm not able to follow.
In your quote below.... you say:
"I guess what I am trying to say,in a nice way, is that if you are trying to tell me some version of 'Go out and do something and you will feel better", I would prefer that you do not respond to my posts on these subjects."
You don't have to say that nicely.... you can say it any way you want.
What I wanted you to hear was....."go out and apply some of these lessons you're learning, to your life."
I didn't say just go out and repeat what you've already done in the past.
I provide my actual words so you can see that I'm not saying "get over it."
My quote was:
"Why not and can you not find something that takes you outside your head for a while.....
focuses you on activities that lift you up and carry into your normal daily activities as catalyst?
Time to broaden your horizons, IMO.
Reading self help books is great, necessary.... wise and we can use that new information.
Now you need to apply it IRL."
You may assume that all emotional growth takes place inside the head.....
that no 'real' progress can be made by applying new information or making mindful decisions outside our comfort zones.
On this, I respectfully disagree.
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Dear Lighter,
Lets' just respectfully disagree- HUH? Ami
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If "rolling my eyes" can make a deep standing problem go away then, right now, I am rolled up in a ball, doing a headstand and levitating. Ami
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Dear Lighter,
Lets' just respectfully disagree- HUH? Ami
I'm not sure how applying some the lessons you've learned, to your life, would inhibit healing, but.... you certainly have the right to disagree.
By now, you know how I feel about it so..... we know where we stand, no doubt.
I will say.... the HUH? in your post has me picturing you with your fist set on cocked hip... head bobbing back and forth, which tickles me the same as if you'd said "screwed." : )
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Amy,
I DO roll my eyes. It doesn't take the pain away totally, but it does help me to detach. It helps me stand back and see her theatrics and pull down her smoke screen. It helps me not buy into all the drama that sucks the rest of the family into her game. And it helps me feel stronger. Feeling shocked makes me feel like I am a victim -- like I didn't see it coming and that the snake in the grass got me again. I am sorry if that statement appears insensitive to you. It is just something that I have done to take control of my healing and I thought I would offer it.
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Dear Poppy,
I accept in the manner in which it was offered? Can I come down off the ceiling now?
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:lol: :lol: :lol: Of course! Let's be shocked AND roll our eyes and then go to lunch!! :D
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I go back through years of journals and wonder who that person was.
She's so different than who I am today.
I think you should journal again.... go back and read then write about what you see.... what scares or upsets you.
(get in the shower and rage and keen like a wild animal... sink into the sadness... remeber?)
If it's still bothering you.... then it's not been processed yet and by processed I mean completely felt and mourned and let out into the light and turned over and examined.
That's when you can put it down.
That's when the part of you that grew up conditioned to feel shame..... can put it down.
That child is in there and she wants to say it...... it comes out in your life..... everywhere.....
in all sorts of ways.
Go back and journal again.
Know that anything you put there won't hurt you.....
it's part of you and everyone has stuff.
::sigh::
So many moving parts.... not only do you have to deal with whats in front of you..... your inlaws et....
but you have to deal with what's behind and in you as well.
Very difficult to do and most people can't do it.
Inviting pain isn't what we're engineered to do.
But that's the way to feeling better, IMO.
I think you can do it, Poppy.
I want to talk to the two parts I highlighted.....
Gosh. I have been looking at this stuff since I was 14. I have journaled and journaled. I have talked to therapists about the details. I have spent long hours thinking through the pain looking at it....examining it....bringing it in the light......forgiving......and laying it down. I am not even sure I could recall the experiences anymore. Which is saying something considering I used to be able to recall volumes of details. I am tired! So very tired. I don't want to live in the past or experience it all again. I feel like it is a trap.....and I have finally escaped.
Having said that, I recognize that something is IN me and it wants to come out and does in everything and everywhere. I am painfully aware of this circumstance and pray fervently that this will show itself to me so I can lay it down. I guess I am wondering, honestly, what have I missed. I must have missed something -- something big! I can't help but feel a tremendous sense of stupidity or failure. Perhaps this is a question for my T. But, I want so badly to be free. To walk out of all the wreckage. And let it go. I think my approach now is to take what each day brings. If I feel the shame....I try to address it. If something scares me, I try to look it in the face and either face it or call its bluff. I don't know if that is the same as going to the depths and writing about it. I feel like I waste time there feeling sorry for myself. I can't change any of it. I can't change the circumstances now that seem to continue bringing the rejection that got me in trouble in the first place. You know, I have never thrown myself away. I have never let go of that lonely strand of loving myself. I just decided not to listen to it. I just can't seem to understand why others don't love me too. That is the question in my mind. I don't know quite how to deal correctly with all that happened and continues to happen because I am so damaged. So, I don't rely on anyone. I stand alone and practice taking care in the best way I know today.
What am I missing? What keeps the pain coming back? Is it just time??? And continuing to do all the new things I am learning and being patient until the vat of pain is empty?
Sorry. I am frustrated with this. Your post rings a bell for me. So I know I need to look at it. But it creates stress in my thinking. I feel like I have lost so much time. 17 years. I don't want to give over any of my present life now to the past. I want to keep in untouched somehow.
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What you said here about the devil snare really registers with me!
I am feeling quite strongly that the past can become such a trap - like a quicksand - so that all of the kicking and flailing only serves to get me more desperately entrenched.
It seems likely to me that all of the past review which has been intellectually processed does need to be released via that keeling and howling, Lighter-style.
Think of the Wailing Wall in Israel...
I did some of that in a dream the other night... woke myself up... and instead of feeling embarrassed and drained, it left me unburdened and relieved... because, I believe, by the grace of God, I chose to allow it to have that effect. It was awful and terrible... but I saw it gone! It was like the circle of agony was shortstopped and became a line flowing out, instead. No poetry in that expression, but to me it was lovely.
[/quote]
So, what is the difference between the proccess that is quicksand.....and the process that leads to the unburdening and relief???? That is my question of the day.
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Dear Poppy,
What did you mean by the line that you did not throw yourself away.You always had a strand of loving yourself? I can't cut and paste with this computer? Thanks Ami
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Hmmmm....I am not sure how to say it to make it more clear but, I never did that action of throwing myself away. I have read many places where people with toxic shame did this. But I never did. Through my childhood, I always liked myself and fought for myself. I knew that I was a fixer and had to adopt some codep to deal with the circumstances around me. I know that the sexual abuse damaged my "self". I know that the events of my marriage eclipsed the self and I put it away. I tried to change my personality to be more favorable or that would be more socially loveable -- like learning better table manners. I am sure I went too far with that. I learned to cave in and did frequently. I thought I was making myself more loving but I was really self destructing. Crazy. I know that I went through a period of years where I couldn't find the center of myself -- the pain was so severe that I couldn't orient to self anymore. But my experience in the hosp (don't know if you read about that) helped me to find it again. But I never stopped holding on to my love for that little me. The rejection just became too much and the damage was too great. I was coping with the best tools I knew at the time trying to controll the incoming arrows and darts......I know now that I need better ones that don't go against me.
Does that help?
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One more thought in answer to your question AMi --
You know throughout this last 10 years, I fought for myself or took many steps at self care. I can see that a lot of my actions were actually pretty healthy. I got SOOO much flack! I didn't understand it. I thought it was my fault. I thought that perhaps my parents were right. I had ruined their family and here I am ruining another family who looks so perfect. And so I took on all the shame of their comments and tantrums when I would try and suggest they stay outside of my boundaries. Now I understand. The N component. Lights are all on now. But I am so wound up and have to undo all that I did to stop the attacks and make the peace.
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I'm all for getting past and beyond..... I don't want to spend any more time feeling sad or sinking into hopelessness either.
Don't want to. ::shrug::
I may have to.... and that's just the way it is.
I much prefer the Zen approach..... acceptance of the bad, for there would be no good things without it.
I'm sometimes amazed at bad things in my life.... wow..... this is my path, who would have seen that coming?
I wonder what will come next.
I don't dread.
I try to invite better things and get on better paths.
But...... there's still that tap tap tapping on my shoulder at times.
No denying it.... it's there, though it comes and it goes.
I'm keenly aware of the decisions I make at those times..... not blathering into the phone to anyone who'll answer just to feel better in the moment.... but calmly considering uplifting options I could instead choose to persue then persuing one.
That's the goal anyway, lol.
Whether it's cleaning out a drawer, getting bills paid or researching something I have to figure out..... it's better than letting the ghosts drive me into familiar self defeating patterns that do me no good.
Then there's the regret, shame and recovering from that too. I need that like a hole in the head so.... mindful mindful mindful.... keeping goals in mind. Starting the day out with a review of my goals. Focus. Nurture. Stop to smell the posies...... be mindful and present when I can.
I guess we begin to recognize when we feel off or alone or victimized and turn our energy toward something else by sheer force of will, when it comes right down to it?
Maybe that starts to become habit after a while.... recognizing the feelings and choosing to go against the familiar patterns and urges that used to drive us..... and building something better in spite of it?
Maybe that's all we hope for?
Maybe we have to teach someone else the lessons, before we actuallly get it?
Maybe I'll keep evolving but..... I'm so tired of growing.... so tired too.
Poppy.... do you ever have wonderful days when you're so happy to be alive you can't beleive you'll ever feel bad again?
I do. I can usually trace them directly to healthy patterns and behaviors I take the time to gift to myself.
Diligence pays off big in this area, for me.
So that's what I strive for..... and any negative self defeating critical thoughts towards myself don't ever help.
I make every effort to speak to myself gently.... the way I strive to speak to my children.
I ask myself questions and wait patiently for the answers....... ::sigh:: not so much time to do that anymore with children and maybe when yours and mine are grown we'll get better at it?
We have a lot going on around us.
Our children, in laws, husbands and the damage attached to them and the damage attached to our pasts and what we've worked through vs what we've avoided or missed.
SO many moving parts.... so hard to focus on them much less figure everything out and children keep changing and new challenges come up while we're still dealing with the old: /
Maybe faking feeling worthy (and being kind to ourselves) is all there is....after we give up hope and finish mourning?
There's 4 moving parts, IMO.
Then adcd other people's expectations of us and fair and unfair demands....
the responsibility of children.....
lets face it....
if we didn't have some catalyst and crisis in our lives, we wouldn't be examining any of these things, would we?
I don't think anyone is spared crisis, btw.
I don't think anyone escapes doubt and pain and growth.
I do think some of us are raised with better habits and those that aren't have to work harder to aquire them.
I can't tell you you'll ever feel truly whole and at peace but.....
I can tell you that I feel so much better than I used to.
I've learned something from every awful thing I've gone through and come out stronger, darnit.
I apply that to you and everyone here because it's all I know.
It's my experience and I put it out there in order to hear feedback and better understand it myself.
Maybe I change some of what I believe, as I go?
Maybe I change a lot?
Maybe I see that I change the way I look at it and it starts falling into place more quickly?
I want to think about this for a minute, Poppy.....
What would your life look like if you cared for yourself with the same diligence and presense of mind that you care for your H and children?
This is a great thread... thanks for starting it: )
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The only thing that is true and 100% workable (IMO) is the Bible. The Bible says ,"You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free."
Being "free' means being rid of pain, fears, bitterness,insecurity, worry rejection etc. So, there has to be some part of this Scripture that you are unknowingly violating or you would be free.
The "Truth" includes all truths in life. It is the truth about God, ourselves, our past,.our present and life in general.
I guess that is the one tool that I have in my "bag of tricks" ---- and Dat's it Ami
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Lighter,
I much prefer the Zen approach..... acceptance of the bad, for there would be no good things without it.
Absolutely. I believe this. Always have. Tried endless days to convince my H that both the good and the bad live together.
I try to invite better things and get on better paths.
YES! This is part of my new work!
Poppy.... do you ever have wonderful days when you're so happy to be alive you can't beleive you'll ever feel bad again?
No. Sadly. Not yet. I don't know what those days are like. I hunger and thirst and wonder if it is sitting right in front of me and I am blind so I can't see it.
What would your life look like if you cared for yourself with the same diligence and presense of mind that you care for your H and children?
I can tell you what I say ...... and then what my shame says. Two different things. Mostly, it is a process of learning HOW to do this in building ways. Thought I was doing that before. Boy was I wrong!! Taking care of myself like my babies. vs. "taking care" of a criminal.
pops
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Ami,
You know I thought I had answered that question when I started this thread. Why can't I find the happy? Because I think in patterns and prisons of shame. So, I am trying to undo it. To unthink it.
Hmmmmm........
Maybe we are all saying parts of the same thing. Pieces.....vital pieces to a bigger picture. Some ideas cross over and some are just out of reach for us.
Boy, this thread is giving me a work out. I think I am sweating.... :wink:
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I'm all for getting past and beyond..... I don't want to spend any more time feeling sad or sinking into hopelessness either.
Don't want to. ::shrug::
I may have to.... and that's just the way it is.
I much prefer the Zen approach..... acceptance of the bad, for there would be no good things without it.
I'm sometimes amazed at bad things in my life.... wow..... this is my path, who would have seen that coming?
I wonder what will come next.
I don't dread.
I try to invite better things and get on better paths.
But...... there's still that tap tap tapping on my shoulder at times.
No denying it.... it's there, though it comes and it goes.
I'm keenly aware of the decisions I make at those times..... not blathering into the phone to anyone who'll answer just to feel better in the moment.... but calmly considering uplifting options I could instead choose to persue then persuing one.
That's the goal anyway, lol.
Whether it's cleaning out a drawer, getting bills paid or researching something I have to figure out..... it's better than letting the ghosts drive me into familiar self defeating patterns that do me no good.
Then there's the regret, shame and recovering from that too. I need that like a hole in the head so.... mindful mindful mindful.... keeping goals in mind. Starting the day out with a review of my goals. Focus. Nurture. Stop to smell the posies...... be mindful and present when I can.
I guess we begin to recognize when we feel off or alone or victimized and turn our energy toward something else by sheer force of will, when it comes right down to it?
Maybe that starts to become habit after a while.... recognizing the feelings and choosing to go against the familiar patterns and urges that used to drive us..... and building something better in spite of it?
Maybe that's all we hope for?
Maybe we have to teach someone else the lessons, before we actuallly get it?
Maybe I'll keep evolving but..... I'm so tired of growing.... so tired too.
Poppy.... do you ever have wonderful days when you're so happy to be alive you can't beleive you'll ever feel bad again?
I do. I can usually trace them directly to healthy patterns and behaviors I take the time to gift to myself.
Diligence pays off big in this area, for me.
I really enjoyed these words Lighter; they resonate with me.
I don't know if some pain can be undone, some of the deeper stuff, anyway. Revisiting it feels more like stubbing my toe over and over, expecting it to heal. I think thats the crux of why I no longer do it.
I prefer rethinking, over revisiting. For me, shame is is a `thought', behind a feeling. Thats why the positive thinking and positve reframing works better for me I guess.
X Bella
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Thanks Bella. I really appreciate your thoughts
I like the positve reframing and replacing. Not the stubbing frustration that it won't heal. It feels patient and kind to me.
I can only do what I can do today. Maybe tomorrow I will be able to do more. And today, I feel I need to recognize the voice of shame in my head and actively try to change that. This feels sufficient for today.
Thanks for all your labors in trying to understand my brain.
Love Pops
Ps. I still might start the journal thing again. I can see how that could be helpful. Even if I just recorded my progress....my daily struggles....and my blessings.
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I can tell you what I say ...... and then what my shame says. Two different things. Mostly, it is a process of learning HOW to do this in building ways. Thought I was doing that before. Boy was I wrong!! Taking care of myself like my babies. vs. "taking care" of a criminal.
pops
Wow.... when you put it like that.... it really draws perspective to how our attitudes and beliefs shape our lives.
I know what it feels like to always assume I'm the one who did something wrong or needs to change or isn't OK enough..... good enough.....
To have people scapegoat me as an ongoing habit I never could wrap my mind around or even question properly for so long...... and then it was ingrained by the time I stepped back to examine what was going on.
I didn't question sooner bc I'm a decent human being willing to explore the possibility that I'm flawed and can improve.... I was burdened and confused by the gaslights: /
It's beyond my scope to understand why people would do things that make no possible sense and cut their own throats so they can ride us into the dirt like a beach donkey. (still love that one, Axa: )
Let's make a pact, Poppy.....
lets assume....
even if we just pretend.....
that we're good, healthy, worthy and deserving of the same care and kindness (we easily give to our children....) then we go about mindfully treating ourselves like sacred children.
OK! One more lovely ritual to add to our bonfire ceremony for Cat Paw's Ruby Slipper boot adornments!
This will be a special night indeed!
Everyone will stand before the fire and receive a ruby token of the power that resides within them, talisman.
I think I want mine to be a sparkley ruby forehead glitter triangle.... ummmm.... and I'll start painting my face with cool pink, brown and red design, just bc.... and the red sparkle will be jewel in my face paint :D
Triangles have power in the universe, ya know; )
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Bella:
I hope we can work through the majority of our issues with positive works and mindful care of our selves.
Ami... you wrote:
The only thing that is true and 100% workable (IMO) is the Bible. The Bible says ,"You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free."
Being "free' means being rid of pain, fears, bitterness,insecurity, worry rejection etc. So, there has to be some part of this Scripture that you are unknowingly violating or you would be free.
The "Truth" includes all truths in life. It is the truth about God, ourselves, our past,.our present and life in general.
I guess that is the one tool that I have in my "bag of tricks" ---- and Dat's it Ami
The bible also says I shouldn't eat shellfish, touch dead pigs or be homosexual.
::whispering::
Abominations don'tcha know?
I also condemn slavery, oppression of women, refuse to stone the woman not a virgin when she marries and would certainly protect a child from being killed by his parents should he make the deadly mistake of cursing them :shock:
Ya... ::Nodding head::
ya...
it's true.
::hanging head in shame::
I'm one radical little iconoclast, I know.....
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Dear Lighter,
Th Bible is too big of a topic to get in to a ""discussion"" about. Ami
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Dear Lighter,
Th Bible is too big of a topic to get in to a ""discussion"" about. Ami
I wasn't angling for a discussion.... this is Poppy's thread on SHAME.
I thought you might want to[i]reconsider your precentages, all things considered.
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Let's get back to the topic of shame.
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I guess my determination out weighs my fears.
Yes, it seems to, Pops :) We human beings were created for dependence and fellowship... just gotta be sure we don't get those two paradigms confused or directed toward the wrong "other", imo. In making a list of expectations - i.e., what do I expect from myself? from God? from others? - alot of chaff blows away in the breezes of maturity.
Carolyn
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I know what it feels like to always assume I'm the one who did something wrong or needs to change or isn't OK enough..... good enough.....
To have people scapegoat me as an ongoing habit I never could wrap my mind around or even question properly for so long...... and then it was ingrained by the time I stepped back to examine what was going on.
I didn't question sooner bc I'm a decent human being willing to explore the possibility that I'm flawed and can improve.... I was burdened and confused by the gaslights: /
Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!....and one more Yes! just because.
This is my year of learning to question properly......being willing to break through the shame and confusion. I don't suppose I am done with this journey. But I no longer see myself as the "problem". Although, that string gets pulled quite easily and I have to deliberately refuse to listen.
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I know what it feels like to always assume I'm the one who did something wrong or needs to change or isn't OK enough..... good enough.....
To have people scapegoat me as an ongoing habit I never could wrap my mind around or even question properly for so long...... and then it was ingrained by the time I stepped back to examine what was going on.
I didn't question sooner bc I'm a decent human being willing to explore the possibility that I'm flawed and can improve.... I was burdened and confused by the gaslights: /
Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!....and one more Yes! just because.
This is my year of learning to question properly......being willing to break through the shame and confusion. I don't suppose I am done with this journey. But I no longer see myself as the "problem". Although, that string gets pulled quite easily and I have to deliberately refuse to listen.
SO..... now we're dealing with the essense?
Is this it?
How to feel entitled to examine OTHER PEOPLE's Motives and actions......
How to express our rightful view and disagree with them, esp when they're finger pointing and gaslighting....
How to disagree in the right way, to the right degree for the right reasons without feeling guilty or torn or tormented :shock:
How to sustain a boundary after we set it..... esp with people who make it their life's work to trample boundaries, win, dominate and subjugate everyone in their lives bc it feels good to do so!!!!
I just don't have that much energy.....
sleep kitty kat here, remember?; )
When I think of DOING the above...... I hear circus music playing in my life's background :shock:
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This is the whole point of starting this thread I think.....although I don't think I saw it until I read something and posted something to Lupita. Then it became crystal clear. I love myself. Right? I think I am fine. N's were threatened by me so they tactically tried to shut me down. I thought I needed to improve myself. I ended up shutting myself down. Yuck. Realized my mistake. Tried setting boundaries. All HELL broke loose. And is still flying around the barnyard....two conversations of calm boundary setiing and one letter. And here we are in world war 3! Anyway, I set the boundary and then I feel guilt, shame, self doubt, torn, tormented. THis is my big question! Why do I do that and how the heck do I stop???? This is my week spot. I am doing good with boundary setting.....just not the maintaining firmly against the storm. The attacks and the rejection of my family pull all my old wounds out and pick them like a banjo!
Thank you for seeing it and saying it. It does feel like a circus act. BUT, I refuse to spin plates on sticks!! I don't care what my IL's do.....liar liar pants on fire! Ok, I do care.....but I am caring less and less!! I am more concerned about getting this blasted habit of shame out of my head.
Then the wind could blow, and people could spit in my face and I would KNOW that I could handle it. Or at least know the difference between their stuff and mine.
Thanks for all your thinking and thoughts, Lighter.
but.....what is "sleep kitty kat here????????"
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I guess we have to figure out how to handle and overcome the increased emotional terrorism following any attempt we make at setting healthy boundaries, lol?
An increase in terrorism we couldn't handle in teh first place so we start drawing assertive little lines in the sand.
The N's go right to world war III bc that's what they do.... and we're cringing under the firepower.
Man that just sucks.
Our attempt to protect ourselves is treated like an act of aggression..::.shaking head::
It's more than difficult if we, or our spouses and children, are dependant on the ones we're trying to set and sustain bounadries with.
They have lots to bargain with and they don't think twice about sacraficing anything and everything to get their selfish irrational needs met.
Makes no sense....::shrug::
That doesn't help us figure it out.
I think it was Mud who said that 'trying to figure out something that makes no sense, is a waste of time."
Something similar to that.
So..... we can set a boundarie then run for cover!
We can speak a truth then run for cover!
Then what?
We're harrassed, accused of doing exactly what they're doing, punished, denied and called selfish and crazy....
guilted, shamed..... manipulated into feeling pity, the absolute worst!
We can control our own thoughts and actions...... reactions, but not how others will guide their behavior.
We make discoveries, try to resolve some of the conflicts causing us pain, then get hit with quadruple the chaos in reaction to our boundarie setting, lol.
I;d like to think that most people recieve support and care from their FOO's. Not sure at this point :shock:
How crazy is it when the people who're supposed to be guiding and protecting us are subjugating, scapegoating, controlling and dominating us for shits and giggles?
DOES NOT COMPUTE!!!
SO they accuse us of EVERYTHING they're doing and more and we're back to feeling the things that people who actually committed those offenses SHOULD feel!
And the nauseating confusion.....
We keep doubting ourselves bc we're good people.
How do we break that cycle?
Teacher speaking to class:
"Today, class... we practice our new mantra.....
First....
insert fingers in ears, thusly......
Then,
repeat after me.....
la la la la la la la la la la la la!"
A vision of myself holding a cross and chanting some version of holy words just came to mind :shock:
I guess as long as the N's have something they can successfully bargain with (read that as hold over our heads and emotionally terrorise us with....) we're in a bind?
We can't expect them to change..... so what can we change?
Our expectations. CHECK
We can stop internalizing their words. CHECK, maybe.... sometimes, lol. It comes and goes!
Our own reactions to their words.
I don't think we can do that successfully while we're dependant on them for anything.
There is no resolution, in that case bc they tirelessly dog us into submission, bc they can. It's what they do.
Because we allow it?
They up the aggression until we cry uncle or run away, screaming like our hair's on fire.
Who can take that kind of sustained manipulation and remain steady?
I can't.
I've tried and I shut down too.
Or I'm patient for just so long then.... BOOM!
So......
Are we asking the wrong questions?
Should we be asking ourselves why in the world would we try to sustain relationships like that?
Is that what 'normal' people do, without thinking about it?
Is the fact that we're willing to waste vast amounts of our limited time and energy the problem?
Is that the reason why we can't find happy?
Right now..... I feel like trying to have a relationship with N's is like standing there with a cross and jabbering excorsism rites at someone who can't possibly be freed from their demons :shock:
How do we find serenity facing that? Being pulled and pushed and batted around unless we submit and give up our voices again?
Or... at the very least, pretend along with them while believing some entirely different reality..... I guess humoring them (like their idiot savants) and living like we're the only adults in a room full of toddlers?
Do we parent them?
I'm just not that strong..... I don't have enough energy to parent abusive destructive adults who dwell in a position of trust in my life....
or....
let me rephrase that....
dwell in a position a trustworthy person WOULD occupy in a heathy person's life!! :shock:
Is it us?
Are we truly missing the point here?
SHOULD we be giving up, getting over it and moving on...... but we're not?
Are we just making the noises people make BEFORE they get it together and truly give up hope and really really move on?
I don't know but I'm self medicating with food right now and can't stop to save my life: /
Are we trapped bc we allow ourselves to be?
Are we creating the trap ourselves?
Is the trap in our own minds?
Do we have the power to exist with the N's and not be afffected negatively?
Could a Tibetan Monk handle it?
A Tibetan Monk wouldn't ever find himself in this postion, hmph.
Is it as simple as the AA slogan.....
replace replace replace?
::sigh::
And finally..... do we, like other addicts, have to hit rock bottom before we've had enough and finally grasp the depth of what we're dealing with?
Is that what this all comes to?
I must admit.... I'm not thinking with complete clarity today.
I may come back and argue opposite points tomorrow :shock:
As of right now..... I see trying to sustain healthy relationships, with people who do us harm, akin to beating our heads against the wall.
Trying to get them to understand what they're doing?
Akin to beating our head, shoulders knees and toes against the wall: /
Trying to make sense of it all?
Akin to beating all of the above against wall, then flipping ourselves backwards and dashing our heads on the pavement.
end rant
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btw... sleepy kitty kat is my personality, by birth.
I think I was born serene..... one of those dreamy eyed creative children.
I can recall sitting in the mirror and mindfully discarding facial expressions..... replacing them with alert, on gaurd facial expressions, in my teens.
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You have just summerized my delimma.....OUR delimma....... in a nice beautiful package with a bow! I have said those words to my H.....hundreds of times this year.
I am with you -- self medicating is the only answer!
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I prescribe Haagen Daz for One week..... then we move onto something salty!