Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sunblue on October 09, 2007, 11:09:19 AM
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I have not been on this board that long but in reading some of the posts, it appears that people are in different stages of healing. I'm wondering how long are these healing journeys? How long before you get to the point where you can accept the losses and pain of an N relationship and move forward? I've also noticed that with some, there seem to be almost a sense of anger (maybe frustration?) with those who are struggling with this. The underlying tone seems to be "get over it already. Quit whining. It's not going to change so just accept it and move forward. Learn from the tragedy. Grow a backbone and a soul." While indeed some of this might be true or beneficial, I think it often demeans or discredits the serious effects of an N relationship.
So I'm wondering is there a reasonable amount of time to struggle with this issue and move forward? If so, what are some of the ways those of you who have done this successfully have gone about it? A therapist once told me that "you have a big hole in your heart left by the loss of a parent and sibling (both Ns) and you will always feel sadness about that." Of course, being the good T, he went on to say you have to try to fill that hole with other things......My argument, in turn, was that you can't really swap one person for another. Can a good neighbor or friend really be swapped for a mother or sister? I have a hard time with that concept.
If anyone woud care to weigh in on their own healing journey, I'd be interested in hearing about it.
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Hey Sun,
I don't know if anyone has an answer to the question "How long?". I even asked that same question on the board weeks ago. I think it was my own desire to lay it down. To accept and move on. It has not been that easy for me. Maybe it has for others. I am learning a great deal in the process though. I am learning what I can change, what I can't, and how all the sufferring can be turned for good. I am grateful for most of it. Some of it feels too heavy to carry and I want so badly to let it go. But I don't suppose it will let me go until I learn the lesson it is there to teach me.
Much love,
Poppy
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Hey Sun
Where an N is involved, as in man/woman relationship (me) I left him and when I saw a therapist, she said it would take 1½ -2 years for my rage, and need for revenge, to settle down. And as I thought things through while I studied Narcissism, I would soon see that I fell in love with no one. The person I met did not exist----- his mask fell after about 6 months and he was someone I did not love.
I was in the midst of the crazymaking, trying to understand where I went wrong when I thought I was doing okay-- yet everything was my fault and I was also trying to leave, butewe had a partnership business. Had he not screwed with my mind, I would not have been waiting for him to take my name off the business. I left anyway and then I could think. HELL I was a partner, *I* could dissolve the business.
So getting over the N, when one has enforced NO CONTACT, is faster and easier than if there must be contact (re children, etc.) Continued contact is still seeing the same crazy, hurtfiul stuff, the lies and does not supply a good base for healing from emotional abuse.
That is the time that I believe, when one is OVER the N, that one comes here for support to find out why we were suscpetible in the first place, and other questions etc regarding we, the victims, healing and becoming survivors.
JMHO
Izzy
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I don't think there's any silver bullet answer for everyone, that's for sure.
And I also think there's a difference between an introverted person desiring minimal contact with dysfunctional FOO's and an extroverted person, with strong feelings of entitlement and ideas about what they should be receiving, regarding expectations of a FOO.
There are people who're comfortable in the struggle of dysfunction and won't be moving beyond a certain point.... even though they think they're doing healing work.
That might be me or anyone or all of us at any given time, I suppose.
And.... I guess we all have different ideas of what we can sustain and endure... different goals and understandings.
Different levels of becoming enlightened.
What we consider good enough or unbearable is all subjective.....
Giving and sacraficing feels good to some people and dreadful to other personality types, for instance.
Some of us have gotten used to the feelings of enmeshment and the discomfort of our situations.
Being alone or outside our comfort zones can be more unbearable than remaining in our dysfunctional situations, then something happens and that changes. Maybe it happens over and over and maybe for some, it happens once and that's that.
I think the worst dysfunctional relationships to heal from.... would be the ones where the abusers go between kindess and cruelty, for no apparent reason..... and can always talk us back in.... no matter how dispicable they've treated us.
They somehow gain our sympathy and use it against us to disarm and gain cooperation.
::shiver::
The more straight forward offenders actually get some respect from me, on that one point.
The people I have in mind, not FOO stuff, are usually good at gaslighting bc I'm so willing to take responsibility and accomodate others, bc it makes me feel good to do so.
Once I figure out what's going on.... they've been very straight forward, non apologetic, smash it in my face never gonna change and there's nothing I can do about it people..... and that, oddly enough..... truly is something I've grown to respect, if only bc it saved me lots of time: /
If they had gone all wishy washy soft and made promises and looked like they were attempting to keep them.... I would have wasted much more time and been in for a longer bumpier ride, kwim?
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It's as long as it takes, you know? My T described it with the metaphor of a mountain. She said you are on the road of your life and the road goes right over a mountain. You climb this whole mountain and it's huge and takes a long time and is very effortful and even dangerous. Finally, you are past the mountain, but even though you keep going miles down the road, you can turn and see the mountain from very far away because it's a huge feature of the landscape. But you are past the mountain. Right now I'd guess you are somewhere on the mountain itself.
It's funny how I often think of how long it took before I even was able to start. I kept trying to get to a place where there was a positive reciprocal relationship with my family and failing miserably (and being treated like an enemy) and getting into rotten emotional dysfunctional scenes and going away devastated... and retrenching to try again. Looking back, I can see how frustrated people were with me who were outside the situation and encouraging me to open my eyes to recognize various home truths, but I just couldn't, wouldn't, didn't know how, yet. As much as these people wanted me to see the truth so that I could move on - as much as they led me to water so I could drink - I wouldn't drink. But, in perfect parallel - I kept leading my family to water so they would drink - and they wouldn't drink. I can laugh about it now, but it's dark humor. Think how bad you and I want/ed to get to that positive place with our families and others want/ed us to see with clarity and do the positive and productive work of freeing ourselves and learning to value ourselves and move on and practice thriving in our lives.
But nobody can make anybody drink the water of life. It just can't be forced. I can't force my Dad, and nobody else can force me. But eventually I was ready to drink. And when I was ready to drink, I was ready to learn from role models of people who had drunk before me. And to leave my dad there by the waterhole still refusing to drink.
Another way I think about it is this. What happened in my family and yours was enormous. It was enormous like a natural disaster - like a volcano or a hurricane. I can sit there for all my life in shock and staring at the gaping hole that should have been, could have been a happy home and thriving relationships, staring at the gaping hole of all that was familiar that I valued -the ruination of all my wishes, dreams and illusions - wishing that this horrible thing had not happened. Or I can finally say - what now? What now? And stand up and turn around and face life and the unknown. I know what the past is and I know what the family situation is - it's all that I know. To move on, I must go into what I do not know. But hell yeah I would take what I do not know, even though it is humbling and I'm a beginner, any day over what I do know, which is just pigheaded ruination and destruction for no good reason and is not at all in my power to change. But it is in my power to stand up, turn around and start walking.
But for me or you or anybody all of that is purely volitional and we set our own pace and our own time. People can have opinions about that, and people can share their experiences, insights and frustrations - but we ourselves walk each step of our own journey.
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Dear Sun,
Today when I was on the exercise bike, I "got the answer to your question.When we get sick emotionally(IMO), it is really just lies and lies piled on top of each other. It is simply distortions about ourselves and life.
In order to heal we have to use the truth to combat the lies. How long does it take? As long as it takes to face the truth.
What is the truth? For one ,it is who we 'really " are. We have value and inherent worth. Anything that opposes that is a lie.
What if our family told us differently? Then they lied to us and we have to get to the roots of these lies and combat them with the truth. When we can, we will be "free"
So, today I realized that you can not rush the process. If you do ,you are putting 'perfume over a swamp". You have to get rid of the swamp---not try to make it look more presentable.
In my heart,I know that this is the truth.I am feeling better from deep within. This shows me that the truth really will heal you.
There really is not a short cut(IMO)
Sun , you are honest and real about who you are and what you feel. Don't feel guilty for the amount of time it takes. You will do deep healing if you just keep going ---step by step Love Ami
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Dear sunblue,
Participating on a forum like this one, I do expect to be challenged when I'm denial. There will be enlightened members who will see it immediately, and say so, & perhaps get frustrated when I say i want to heal, but won't face my denial. But that is what I need from this group, and why I come here.
I think most of us heal what we need to, first, in order to survive. And then we will heal what easiest for us. As for the rest, its very likely a lifelong journey. I don't think anyone reaches enlightenment entirely, so theres a place for healing in each person's life.
But to answer your question, I think it could be rephrased as:
``How long is it healthy to remain in denial, and should others support it or challenge it? And how?''
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Dear Iphi,
Your wisdom on that post "blows me away" My Friend . Love Ami
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Thank you all for weighing in. You make some very good points. Sometimes it's so hard to look at though.
Iphi, your point about not being able to force anyone to "drink the water" is a good one. I think my brother (yeah, he's that healthy, happy one) has been trying to get me to drink the water for awhile now because he has long ago done so. I also think it has to do with how tightly you hold onto that hope that things can change, that you'll finally get what you never got but needed. My brother was able to let go of it pretty well. If anyone would ask him about how he felt that his parents no longer took interest in him or his family, he's probably tell you, "It's really sad. I wish I could have more involvement with my parents, but it's their choice. There's nothing you can do about it so you just have to accept it." That is the big difference between he and I. I have a much, much harder time accepting it. For me, accepting it means being entirely alone.
As someone said in their post, some people prefer to say in dysfunctional situations rather than be alone. Right now, I have no choice as I've had no luck finding a job. I know when I do, I will have to move and then, like my brother, I will have little to no contact with my parents. In my own personal situation, it's not just about letting go of that hope of something I desperately wanted but can't have, but it's also the last straw for me. When you have a lot of loss in life, you try to hold onto anything that is left. Slowly for me, everyone and everything has fallen away----career, so-called "friends" who really weren't, boyfriends who weren't, siblings who are either distancing themselves or who are NPD themselves. And so I've been holding on tight to the one thing that was left....the hope that I still had family, that there was still someone left who would take an interest in me. Facing the reality and the truth that that family just doesn't exist for me is hard. It's like I've lost everything. Like Iphi said, the tragedy is enormous....
So my healing has been slowed I think. Also, the more you learn about this, the more painful it becomes. All shred of hope is discarded.
I'm also not sure yet the healing process depends on whether you're an introvert or extrovert. I don't have a feeling of entitlement....but for some reason, I do know my need for them is far greater than perhaps for most people. Maybe it is because, in part, I have no one else whereas my brother has his own loving family to invest in. The truth is that I think healing comes when the hope dies. It is not a peaceful death for hope tends to spring eternal, especially when you're dealing with family or a spouse whom you care about very much. It's hard to acknowledge that those feelings will never be reciprocated.
But I sure agree with Lighter when she says she prefers those Ns who are upfront about their dysfunction rather than the passive-aggressive variety. Unfortunately, the Ns in my life fit into the latter category. I think many of us are extremely accommodating and sacrificing. For me, I realize that comes from not just a place of helpfulness but from a place of need. When you don't need these people in your life as much, then you don't much care if you say or do something they don't like.
Being on the receiving end of an N is to always know rejection. Rejection is my middle name. After awhile you just one time want to be the person who takes priority and who is important. Just once I'd like to be the person sought instead of the person seeking. But alas, I guess that's part of the reality.
Thanks for sharing and responding. I believe I've got quite a ways to go yet.
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Dear sunblue,
I agree that its easier to have a positive attitude when there is some tangible reason to believe in yourself, such as some history of accomplishing goals, surviving against the odds, or , like you said, a lot of encouragement from people around you.
Its almost heroic when someone who does not have these things chooses to believe in themselves anyway, and dare hope for more out of life. But theres no reason why you can't do it. Its just hard. And maybe thats part of it; its what gives you confidence, and allows you to appreciate your later achievements and gives them meaning.
Have you ever travelled abroad, alone, sunblue? Have you ever thought about nicking off to India or somewhere exotic? I can think of no better or faster experience for healing depression, fear, and paralysis. Its just a thought:) Soon enough some guy will nab you and there'll be no more time for travelling. Being single is such a good position to be in for that.
X Bella
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Hi Bella:
Your post did give me a smile! I have traveled quite a bit alone but nowhere near as exotic as India....Right now I'm desperately trying to find a job so I can't afford to go anywhere. That's why I'm stuck living with the Ns in my family. And believe me, my chances of having some guy snatch me up are long gone....I'm past the age where anyone would be interested. In my age group, most men look for women 10-15 younger than they are! LOL.....But I have done lots of things on my own---traveling, whale watching, movie going, concert attending, dining out, you name it. It's not that I'm afraid of being alone. It's just that when you've been alone all your life, it gets tiring sometimes and hard to hold yourself up when you continue to get kicked. But I do get your point. That old what doesn't kill you makes you stronger thing. At the very least, it might make you strong enough to stand up against people who are harmful to you.
Thank you for the encouragement.
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Dear sunblue, lol, most women in your age group date men 10-15 years younger too (hint hint). It makes more biological sense too, since our life expectency is better than men. Just trying to plant some interesting thoughts there, lol:)
Sunblue, I am not surprised to hear that you've travelled and accomplished a lot, as you come across as gutsy person, in spite of so many hurdles that you've experienced lately. Theres a lot of spirit and wisdom in your posts, not to mention incredible insight. Its as though you're just a tad stuck right now, but the `stronger and spirited' you is bigger part of your nature. I'm not sure if I described that well, but thats the underlying tone in your posts, and I have a lot of faith in you.
I really can imagine you touring India, lol. India is not for everyone (and maybe not a practical place for you to go to right now, but I mean it as a compliment) One of my girlfriends is there now, trying to `shift' her outlook. Her run with men these past 5 years has been dreadful, to the point where she's resorted to dating married men and someone `secretive' who acts as though he may be married. Anyway she's there to clear her head, and no doubt she will. I can't wait for her to come back and tell me about some Sheik who is besotted with her, lol.
The other nice thing about being in these foreign countries is they shift your perspective regarding your desirability. Western men have their heads up their `rear ends' . They make women feel like crap because they can't think, and go along with what they're told is desirable, instead of figuring out what's interesting and good for them personally. In some foreign countries, you are interesting and desirable by default, because of your beautiful white skin and wealth. It does a woman good to experience this every once and a while.
I wish i could think of something more practical to help you get `unstuck'. But I have confidence that you will. Also, you'll feel 100% as soon as you get out of your parent's house. That kind of daily exposure is a huge downer.
Love and Hugs,
Bella
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I do not think you ever get over it totally. Just like a death of someone you love-it gets easier with time but you still suffer the loss. Sometimes I think people wallow it their recovery and get stuck. When that happens I think we need to help them snap out of spinning their wheels and help them to move to the next step of healing.
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Dear Sun,
I think that I heard you right. You said 'Recovery begins when hope dies."WOW---- that should be on tee shirt. That is so profound.It is so simple.
I think that I FINALLY get it. Thanks, Sun.
We need each other ,here Love Ami
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Dear Iphi,
I still can not 'get over" the wisdom in your post. My whole life,people have told me to "get over it."It WAS an obvious thing to say. My past was as present with me as if it were happening,now.
I could talk about my M all day long. People would observe that I had little "present " life(emotionally) I was 'dancing' with ghosts of the past,all the time.
A PTSD website talked about this happening when you have trauma. I guess that I thought that my "trauma" was not enough to have PTSD. Mine was "cerebral" not physical. However,I was replaying old patterns over and over again.
One thing was very true. I could not just 'snap out of it" in any way. People who said that just heaped more shame and guilt on me. However, today,I can receive Iphi's message
I think that there are several reasons that I am 'ready" to make the move of drinking of Life's water. One is the board( many people) allowed me to go on and on as much as I needed to. A trauma victim needs to tell the story as many times as she needs to. It is that simple.WE ,as friends, need to provide a safe place for her to recount it as many times and in as many ways as the person needs to tell it(IMO)
I knew that I was not alone.
I knew that other people were not 'sitting in the corners" sucking their thumbs when they had as bad or worse life than I did.
Shunned(Amber) and Bella introduced me to the inner child modality. I am reclaiming my true feelings and "core" with this modality.
I am taking Bach flower remedies( homeopathics for emotions).
I forced myself to face and express the truth of my life b/c I took the Scripture,"You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free" as a "medicine"
Now, I can 'hear" what Iphi is saying. However, the timing of healing is it's own. A person needs to respect their own pace. They have to have a little place inside them that resists anyone else's timing.
Their timing is all that counts.
Sun, you take the time and space to tell your story and share your emotions. They don't have to be "right" or on schedule. They are your unique way of finding your unique path. Love Ami
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Hey all - I'm glad if some of the stuff that took me sooooo long to learn and was so hard for me to come to terms with can provide some insight and/or solace. It's an amazing thing to realize that some lessons that were so terribly hard to learn and which it seemed were my lonely path alone to grasp - are valuable to share. I don't usually feel like I have anything to offer. Thank you for that.
This topic is making me remember so vividly when I 'bottomed out' and gave up for real. I never knew, ever, before that, that giving up a struggle can be the most powerful freeing thing. I thought giving up was 'quitting' and that it was the same as 'failing.' No. It's nothing like that.
Also, in the process it made me realize how my interactions with others were not clean - it gave me a new awareness which was painful but also kind of exhilarating - seeing a whole new dimension of living and relating. It was the enmeshment and it was being raised among people who were also coercive and conditional and had bad habits in relating and in speaking - that's what I saw - I saw the interchange where I was doing it - putting that into the world and relationships - just as it was being done to me. Dropping the effort was also an important way for me to begin to clean up my ways of relating - it isn't just how I respond to what comes at me, but what I put out there too. Well anyway, it's a work in progress and let me tell you when the baby has a shouting restless night because of teething and I haven't showered and I'm hungry and tired and had no caffeine - let's just say there can be some backsliding in the way I relate to my poor SO. :shock:
Anyway, sorry if this post is tangential - the topic has sent me off on a path.
sunblue - I know what it is to feel that need of family but there's something I found within myself after I started observing and becoming more aware of my internal dynamics. I was feeling as an adult, the full force of how badly I had needed them when I was a child - and at all points along the way to the adult I became. I needed them so many times along the way that I never had them. It was like it just built up. But in fact as an adult, now I do not actually need them now, right now as I needed them during those first 20 years. But I still felt like I did - in fact I kind of actually felt it more because back in those days I was more numb and just surviving. I guess I actually felt the intense need more when it was actually safe to feel it - which was after I had proved I didn't actually need them. So the need was not met in the past and it can't be met in the present because the need is... a ghost. It's a ghost.
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[sunblue - I know what it is to feel that need of family but there's something I found within myself after I started observing and becoming more aware of my internal dynamics. I was feeling as an adult, the full force of how badly I had needed them when I was a child - and at all points along the way to the adult I became. I needed them so many times along the way that I never had them. It was like it just built up. But in fact as an adult, now I do not actually need them now, right now as I needed them during those first 20 years. But I still felt like I did - in fact I kind of actually felt it more because back in those days I was more numb and just surviving. I guess I actually felt the intense need more when it was actually safe to feel it - which was after I had proved I didn't actually need them. So the need was not met in the past and it can't be met in the present because the need is... a ghost. It's a ghost.
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THAT is so big,Iphi. Thanks Ami
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I actually felt the intense need more when it was actually safe to feel it - which was after I had proved I didn't actually need them. So the need was not met in the past and it can't be met in the present because the need is... a ghost.
That makes SO much sense, Iphi!
Congrats on such clear thinking.
thank you,
Hops
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Oh please the T had to lead me to that again and again with heavy, heavy hints. lol! It sucks so much. The need didn't get met in the past and it won't get met in the present - and just when and where will it get met? My answer has been that it will be met within myself between me and god, but everybody has to come to their own answer.
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Hi all:
I think Iphi made some very good points. I think it is true that the need is greatest as a child. But I think it is only as an adult that you come face to face with the reality that the need was never met and will never be met. I also think as an adult you are mature enough to become self-aware and to face all the experiences in your childhood that were so painful.
I also think if you are the one in the family who is particularly affected by an N person, then it does affect how you relate to other people. I know in other posts, people have listed some characteristics of Ns. Those characteristics are so evident in the Ns in my family. Growing up in a family with two Ns and a co-dependent parent, there was never any humor or joy or happiness. There were never any hugs or affection. There were never any "I'm proud of you's or You're wonderful....You could do anything if you set your mind to it." Because there was never any "you". It is always about the Ns. So, as an adult, it is much more difficult to relate to other people. Speaking for myself, growing up in this kind of household in combination with a lifelong clinical depression has left me isolated and alone. While others find it natural to find friends or dates or spouses, I never have. I can't explain it but to say things just never worked out. I found my way to one brief (but ohhh too long) abusive, relationship with an N. He was N but also a psychopath and caused a lot of damage. I know that had I not been used to the abuse of an N family, I would never have found myself in that kind of situation.
I think for me the other important truth is that I am cognizant I am not the person I wished I could have been. The pain and sorrow and loss weigh heavily, despite all efforts to overcome it. It's hard to be a hopeful, happy, joyful person when weighed down by all these memories and painful truths. Yet, people don't really care about the "why". They just know they don't want to be around people like that. They want to be around happy, joyful, positive people. It just seems one painful consequence is heaped upon another.
The other thing is as I learn more about the NPD and how it manifests itself in the Ns in my family, I also become more aware of the extreme levels of my other parent's co-dependency. It deepensas time goes on and makes things even worse. I recently had an argument with my Nmom (she was being very unreasonable and "superior" and her actions are hindering my job search efforts). Well, after this argument (which is extremely, extremely rare in my family), my co-dependent dad screamed at me and jumped (literally) to my dad's defense. I just kind of looked at that situation and thoughts, "Wow, no one will ever stand up for me. I don't have a single ally." So, yes, letting go of that hope may be necessary but it is really, really sad.
I hope to soon get to the point that some of you are at. Acceptance. Understanding. That would be good.
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Sunblue,
Do you have any community of your own, even if it's not intimate for you now?
Do you have a church, a cause you care about, a volunteer activity, education, local issue, class you take?
If not could you take one small step in one of those areas?
You are a citizen. You inhabit a community. Not just the stifling space of your FOO and memories.
There is life all around you. It's okay to eddy in, in small steps. There is room for you.
Hops