Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lighter on October 13, 2007, 09:18:17 AM
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I don't know if LR is considered a quack or a great mind in her field.
I do know I read her book and it seems timely that I just pulled it from a box while moving stuff yesterday.
I also found my scariest of scary masks, which I've been looking for also.... so I'm laughin. Whoo hoo! That big scary black robe clad man wil be handing out candy this year from the candy bowel that shrieks and traps your hand, heh.... I even have perfectly placed cobwebs around the house this year!
Ahem...... Lillianwrites here.... on her cover.....'tales of triumph over the past' and that's what she's written about.
"This book challenges the culture of victimhood and celenrates instead the human capacity to triumph against the odds." This is a partial quote by Kim Chernin, author of In My Mother's House.
Darnit.... I didn't highlight my way through this book: /
Page 2... an excerpt from her book:
"Certainly, the tangled strands of DNA that determine our genetic predispositions make a difference in how we respond to the world around us. In my own family, my brother's pessimism and my optimism stood in oppoisition to one another from our earliest childhod. He characteristically saw a half empty glass; to my eyes, it was always half full. Such differences are not trivial. They govern how we experience the world, how we internalize and interact with those experiences, what choices seem possible."
"But the secrets and possibilities embedded in the double helix notwithstanding, it alone cannot explain why some people fall down seven times and get up eight - and why others cannot recover from the first fall. For although the process by which we respond to events around us may be influenced by our genes, it is mediated by the social and psychological circumstances within which our lives are embedded."
"In twenty-five years as a practicing psychotherapist, I have often found myself awed by the ability of some people to transcend their hurtful past and, against all odds, find pathways to a satisfying adulthood. Yet virtually every twentieth-century theory on which clinical psychology rests, from psychoanalysis to behaviorism, insists that the earliest experience of a child's life in the family foretells the rest."
"Even casual observations suggests, however that it's not possible to write a biography before a life has been lived. Certainly, the past counts. A good start--- a parent who provides what D. W. Winnicott calls a "holding environment" in the first years of life, for example- can make a difference in a person's capacity to form attachments later on. Similarly, a bad start- abuse, abandonment, neglect in early life- take their toll."
I think that's a nice start. This author has written a book about men and women who have violated the psychological predictions and overcome harsh and painful early life experiences. I'm interested re reading this book and noting her ideas about how this works and why.
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Page 8 The author talks about her childhood..... brother, glass half empty, herself... glass half full?
\
She had the veggies crammed down her throat by an immigrant cruel mother and her brother just ate them, horrified that she puked them back up on the dinner table... and asked why she didn't just eat them too.
Years later, when asked to make a living sculpture of her family in a family therapy course...... she placed the representation of herself away from the brother mother representation, who were together. She was distanced and watching them warily.
She goes on to write from there.....
"It was a wrenching reminder of the aching, gripping loneliness of my childhood, my conviction that I must be an adopted child to feel so alien, my despairing fantasy that in some heroic, romantic quest I would find my "true" family, the one in which I would finally belong. None of that happened, of course, b c this was my true family, the family of my birth. A reality that left me with the choice- although not consciously understood and articulated at the time- between accepting my marginality and searching for comfort elsewhere, or trying to belong and getting stuck in the past. I chose marginality, my brother belonging- a choice that freed me and left him victimized by the web of pain, poverty, depression, and anger that characterized the ethos of that family."[/b]
I found the above very interesting and consider it new information, though I've read the book before.
How have we chosen?
Who's still trying to fit in..... and who's searching for comfort elsewhere?
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I've thought a bit about the last post...... and this info follows the question about what we choose.
I'll re post the book is The Transcendent Child by Lillian Rubin, the author of such best-selling books as Worlds of Pain, Intimate Strangers, and Juste Friends, is a sociaologist and spychotherapist who lives and practices in San Francisco. Sher is Senior Research Fellow at teh Institute for the Study of Social Change at the University of California, Berkeley.
Still on page 8, she writes:
"Sometimes it's the child who marginalizes himself by withdrawing in alienation. Then family members, feeling hurt, angry, and uncomprehending, respond in kind, helping to entrench the pattern of marginalization. SOmetimes it's family memhers who initiate the process by their collective inability to understand adn cope with teh child whio doesn't fit. Such a child often seems like an accusation to the others, an unfriendly and judgmental observer in their midst. Then the child reacts."
Next paragraph: same page:
"However it starts, it soon becomes a reciprocal system that circles around and feeds upon itself, leaving the child increasingly isolated. All too often children who find themselves in this situation spend theri lives knocking on a door that's closed to them. But those who transcend tgheir pasts soon become adept at finding and engaging alternative sources of support. Almost always a surrogate, a mentor, a model, a friend plays an important role in the life of the child- assuaging the loneliness, presenting the possibility of another life, of a different way of being"
OH OH.... this is such welcome information right now! I was asking questions, this information speaks to them.
Page 9
"In real life, the more the transcendent child feels detached from the center of family life, the more she becomes involved in some arena of living that's far removed from family pursuits. One child buries herself in books in a household where no one reads. 'I spent a lot of time taking the bus to the library', recalls Sara Mikoulis. 'That was my pattern; it still is. I find soemthing to throw myself into that keeps me engaged in something besides my own worries.'
OK..... ok.
I wish I'd made notes and highlighted. Sometimes I do make notes in books and go back with different colored highlighter pens, each time I re read it. I always get new information and compare how well I've internalized lessons I found important at the last reading.
This is like having a book club again... cept I'm the only one reading the book: /
The author goes on..... still page 9
"Although such activities usually isolate the children still further, the ability to escape into them also contributes to a heightened sense of efficacy and a more autonomous sense of self. Whatever the outcome of the choices they make, it's the sense of marginality in the family, the feeling that they don't fit, that lays the psychological groundwork enabling them to see and grasp alternatives."
OK.... makes sense.
Still page 9, she writes:
"Psychological explanations, however, are not enough to explain the capacity to reach for opportunities. True, some people don't see options even when they're available. But it's the one of the great failings of the psychological theory that it doesn't adequately take account of the impact of the larger social milieu- whether economic, cultural, or political- on human development."
Page 10
"Certainly, as Robert Louis Stevenson once said, life isn't just a matter of holding good cards but of playing the bad ones well. But it's equally certain that the psychological resources we bring to the table can't be disentangled from the larger social context within which the hand must be played out. A poor child has fewer options and greater obstacles to overcome than a middle-class one. In a society where race oten determines life chances, a child born into a n African American, Latino or Native American family has even more to surmount. The immigrant child who confronts an alien culture and a laungauge she can't speak has a more difficult time than an American born one. WOmen still are more handicapped than men in thier attempts to develop lives that include both love and work. "
"Just as the social context of life can impede development, it can also cacilitate it. Look, for example, at how feminism has made possible choices for women that were largely unavailable before, at how it has helped not just to change the rules and roles by which they live but the very identify they call their own. Or at the influence of the civil rights movement on both the identity of African Americans and the economy of that community."
Still page 10, she continues....
"It's true, as every therapist knows, that people who's lives are beset by pain and trauma oftent are so focused on themselves that they barely notice the world around them. Sara Mikoulis, for example, a black soman who suffered an exruciatingly brutal childhood, explains, 'I know it's hard to understand, but I never thought about myself or antging that ever happened to me as connected to my race. I was so abused by family, I thought it was my destiny. It was like everything fell into teh same pot, so if someone said or did something to me because of my race, I woudln't even have noticed. It just seemed natural that I'd be abused by them, too." Nevertheless, whether consciously understood or not, the shifts and changes in the social world form the background of our lives and times, often opening options that were unavailable to earlier generations, allowing us to see what had been invisible before."
On Page 11 now..... the book goes on about the ties of each transcendent child, poor or priviledged.
"They have, of course, also been molded by the past. But the form of the mold defies the expert predictions. The battered child is now a genlte and loving mother who sees it as her mission to spend part of her professional life working with abused children and thier parents. The child who was the family isolate, whose early years show little evidence of any particular talent for social relatedness, grows up to be what I call here adoptable.
By adoptable, I mean the ability to attract others who, at various times in life, become the mentors and surrogates who light the way and fill the gaps left by the past. It's a gift that's common among those who transcend their past- a gift that makes it easier to bear their travail, easier, too, to get up and move on each time they fall down.
Sometimes these are long-lasting relationships; often they are not. It makes no difference. Their importance lies in their meaning to the persons involved and in the fact that there is someone to hold out a hand in time of need, someone also who can help fill the empty spaces inside. "
I'll go on here though I was just trying to hit highlites. I see great importance in the author's thoughts here.
Page 12
"Just drawing such people in is not enough, however. As a therpist, I have seen many adults who might quality for adoptability but who are too fightened to risk a trusting engagement with another. For an adoption to work, therefore, a person needs to know how to accept and use what others offer, which means, among other things, being opent ot a relationshyip and willing to risk enough to give oneself over to it.
A sense of mission-commitment to something larger than self and personal interest-is prominent in most of the sotries that follow as well. At the most obvious level, such a mission provides purpose and meaning in people's lives. For the men and women whose stories I tell her, the mission is related also to teh grati8tude they feel for having escaped their childhood suffereings-gratitude that expresses itself in a sense of indebtedbess that impels them to try to pay back what they call thier "good fortune."
Ok.... OK..... this all makes sense.... I feel like I'm reading this for the first time but it resonates with me on the very deepest level of my gut, heart and head.
She goes on..... still page 12
"In adulthood, therefore, they're not content just to revel in lives that are so different from what they knew in childhood. Instread, they want to use the experiences of the past to change the present, not just for themselves but for others a well. In doing so, they not only give meaning to their suffereing but help to heal themselves."
Yes yes yes..... must get coffee.
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Page 12, yes..... still.
"The past, of course, leaves scars that, when picked, can bleed. But the transcendent child long ago leanred to live with the pain. In fact, it often seems like a faimiliar if difficult friend who, for all the anguish, has played a positive role in the development of a life. The tolerance for pain-the ability to recognize it, to live with it, to accept it, to understand its source, and to master it-breeds the strength necessary for transcendence.
"Each chapter in this book presents the life history of a person. Each story shows the person's place in the family, the chioces and adaptations each made along the way to adulthood, and the social and psychological forces that made those choices possible. All together these narratives form a collage-a series of portraits of epople whose characteristics and adaptations have enabled them to fall down seven times and get up eight."
As with all personal narratives, each story is a construction that reflects the indivudual's experience of his or her life. This doesn't mean (on page 13 now) it's a fiction. Rather, as Erik Erikson wrote in Insight and Responsibility in every life stroy there aer both the "actuality" and the "reality"-the former concerned with objective facts, the latter with how the individual feels about those facts. Certainly, facts count. But it's how those fdacts are experienced and remembered, how they're interpreted, what meaning is assigned to them, that's central not just in contstrucing the narrative of a life but in how that life actually is lived."
"The process of remembering is itsself a delicate one, guided in great part by the need to maintain an integrated and coherent sense of self. But what we remember and how we remember it may be more important than the event itself. Some people nurse and cradle memories of adversity as if they were gold, offering them up at every opportunity as explanations for their damaged lives. THese are the men and women for whom the past lives as powerfully today as it did yesterday, who relate to the old hurts with the same sense of injury and helplessness they experienced as children."
::sigh::
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This is all leading up to the individual stories of children who have transcended and overcome. I won't be sharing those but I'll share up to that point.
Still page 13
"Other repress and deny their painful pst in the vain belief that if they close their eyes, it will cease to exist. But the cost of forgetting is high. To forget, we must dissociate ourselves from our history, silence thought, strip words from consciouseness, armor the heart, smother the soul. Fogetting, then, is a symbolic death, obliterating not just what once was but who we are now an dhow we came to be that way."
Ouch and Oy. Is this where most of us are now? Is this where we're trying to find our way back from? Is this where those who are farther on the path here, have come from?
Are the children who handled it differently on other boards, or living their lives sans chaos and the haunting?
I digress........ still on page 13
"The men and women on the pages of this book remember. They remember the pain and feel the sorrow, just as they did when they were children. But now as then, they're not rendered helpless by their experience. Instead, their lives are organized around transcending it, and their memories serve as a goad in the struggle to overcome. Their suffering is evident in the stories they tell. And so is their pride-pridein their stubborn refusal tob succumb to even the bleakest environment; pride in having gotten up each time they fell, or more likely were pushed, down; pride in having foiled the predictors and beaten the odds."
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Dr. G.... I'm going to read your book next and highlight the whole way through.... in bright pink!
Now..... page 14.
"The details of their childhood miseries may differ, but the common ground-then as now-on which tehy all stand is their dogged refusal to define themseleves as victims, no matter how crushing their burdens. In a society where people clutch their victimhood to their breast like a badge of hnor, where there are support groups for every kind of complaint, (HEY! I resemble that remark, lol!)listening to the people whose lives are chorniocled on these pages was, for me, like breath of fresh air."
The author goes on.....
"I don't mean to suggest that there are no legitimate grievances in our society or that support groups offer nothing but the opportunity for whining. :shock: But when our therapeutic fulture meets the culture of complaint that surrounds us today, the same group that offers support often also facilitates, if it does not acutally encourage, a continued sense of victimhood."
"on a trip to the Midwest a few months ago, for example, I saw a sign advertising a support group for "wounded daughters of distant fathers," and I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. What does it mean for a woman to think of herself as wounded? Why would anyone want to define herself as wounded? Why would anyone want to think of herself that way? However a person answers these questions, such groups too often thrive on soliciting pain, encouragingpeople to fan it, to lhodl it tight, rather than helping them to heal."
There's another page then I'm done for now.
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Continuted from page 14
"Undoubtably, it's helpfult and useful for adult children of alocholic parents to meet others who have suffered the same experience. But the group itlsef can also promote a kind of fatalistic resignation that becomes an excuse for not dealing with the problems of living that aren't much different from those we all encounter."
"Similarly, the support groups that help men adn women cope with the issues divorce raises may nurse a sense of victimhood that impairs their ability to get on with their lives. Recently, for example, I listened to a woman, divorced nearly five years, about how udnerstanding other women are, how helpful. But no one had pushed and prodded her to get her professional life on track, nor did anyone suggest it was time for an end to mourning. When I expressed surprise that she still felt her suffering so keenly so many years after her divorce, she replied, offended, "It takes a long time. There are women in the group who were divorced ten years ago, and they're still in pain."
"On the other side is Karen Richards, whose nineteen-year-old daughter was killed in an automobile accident a few years ago. Searching for surcease from her agony, she sought support in a group for parents who had lost their children. "They were very kind," she recalls, "and I don't want to criticize them. People have to deal with that kind of tragedy in their own way. But after a few meetings, I couldn't go back. There was so much pain and sadness in the room, I didn't think it was helping me. There were people there whose children died years ago, and they were grieving as if it happened yesterday. I wanted to die when jennifer was killed; it would have been fine with me if I had. But I didn't want to live that way."
"The stories that follow are tales of triumph over the past, life hisotries of women and men who refuse to be bowed by their trials, no matter how harsh and painful they may be. How does it happen that way? What makes it possible for some people to recover each time they fall, while others lie prostrate on the ground?"
Sigh...... glancing over the stories... I don't remember one of them. Fascinating stuff, though.
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note:
The ability to separate oneself from the pathology of the family..... as parent's craziness.... enables the child to cope with the difficulties within the FOO. In defindingtheir crazy behaviors ..... the child can disctance himself, become an observer instead of a participant.
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Very important that the child comes to understand that the punishment they receive is unjust, not their fault.
Easier to see in family where cruelty and brutality is outright and less covert so he can understand the problem doesn't lie with him.
The mixed message families make it harder for a child to discern what's his fault and correctly discern if his perceptions are correct, mired in guilt over the craziness/unhappiness he thinks is his fault.
"That understanding, however, comes with both a price and a prize. For the particular child in the story, it was isolation, loneliness and the terrible knowledge that he was left to cope on his own long before he was ready. But his alienation, and his anger at teh humiliations and injustices that were visited upon him, also left him free to think and act independently of the family pathology-free psychologically to resist their blows and their blame; free, too, to seek alternative sources of support and identification, which helped to liberate ghim from his family's damning estimate of him."
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OK... for those who do find mentors and move beyond their FOO's into successful lives....
"it's soon muted by complicated and ambivalent responses to being somewhere better, where we might do well and fit in. For like so many others who have lived on the periphery of their FOO's, the sense of marginality remains long after it is no longer fully a reality. And always it is a double-edged sword."
::gulp::
"The awareness of never fully belonging anywhere and the feelings of isolation that follow are not only hurtful reminders of the past but part of the loneliness of the present. But the very marginality that is tghe source of such distress also is a familiar companion, so much a part of the definition of self that it seems like the wellspring of creativity and accomplishment. Therefore, people may nurture their outsider status-albeit often unconsciously-even while wishing they could be rid of it.
These are feelings I know well. Some years ago, when I was invited to apply for a position at one of the nation's Ivy League universities, I was caught in just this mix of emotions. I was pleased and gratified to know that my work had been noticed and appreciated. But I was also anxiouse bc being "in" was not only an alien experience but an unsettling one
Just contemplating the possibility took me back to my childhood, to the moments when it seemed to me that to be a real part of my family I had to give up my soul. I knew once again the visceral fear of fitting in, the vague but powerful sense that to belong would be to lose myself. As I reflected upon the choice before me in adulthood, I felt the same conflict ai had known as a child, the same conviction that I must choose between autonomy and belonging. I refused the invitation. To accept it was too profounddly at odds with my sense of self-in-the-world-- a self whose intellectual and creative pacapsities seemed to me to be deeply linked to being an outsider
Oh..... this is so sad to read. I really really hate the feeling of struggle when on the outside fringes of social gatherings... so many I'd usualy avoid but can't bc of children's school activities. Sometimes things just click.... and sometimes they don't. Is it bc of me or people there? I always click at the one school and not the other so I have to think it's the particular OTHER personalities involved at this time, anyway.
Giving up our sense of marginality and allowing ourselves to belong. ::sigh::
A quote from the person whose story is being told.....
"I hated it passionately. It was elitist and snobbish. I didn't fit and felt like I was second class the whole time I was there. My roommates were all from upper middle-class families with omey and privilege, and I was this scholorship kid. Those American WASP types always make me unformfortable. They think they're entitled to everything; they're arrogant, liket he world owes them something."
"The idea that someone could believe that "the world owes them something" is insupportable, not just to the person in this story but to all the others whose lives are chornicled in this book. For these are women and men whose sense of entitlement has been distinctly undernourished. They tend, therefore, to look with scort at those who feel entitled to the goods of the world, seeing them as spoiled and self-centered. But while the disdain tehy express about the more priviledged is deeply felt, it also allows them to hide from themselves their own feelings of anger and envy-anger that others wear their priviledge so easily, envy of the sense of entitlement that they themselves can never feel.
Wow, wow... wowow.... and wow.
I think we were just discussing this on the board.... on the guilt thread?
"Their mix of emotion notwhithstanding, their lack of feelings of entitlement is also an element in their victory over the past. Most people who don't feel entitled to a fair share of the world's goods live with a sense of hopelessness that cripples theri ability to go after what tehy want. But for transcenders, it's just another handicap to be overcome, another challenge to be met and mastered. Since they don't expect antyhing to be handed to them, they find their own way to get what they need.
It's this kind of self reliance, this ability to organize themselves and their lives in their own bahalf, that accounts for their success in the world. Moreover, since they expect so little, they tend to be grateful for whatever may be given--a quality that endears them to the people they meet and facilitates their adoptability
Oh my goodness, oh my goodness.... this is all so familiar to me and ringing bell after bell!
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I'm reading from one of the stories now... bc it connects some dots for me, as well.
"there he met his first wife, Anne Marie, a young woman who sought refuge in marriage from her unstable abusive, home. But the idea of marriage was more compleeing than the reality, and teh two troubled young people quickly came to grief. "I hadn't worked out any of the stuff we're talking about now, and she had her own problems," says Petar. "But I was infatuated. She was pretty, and I wanted very much to have a family and be loved. I think I knew walking down the aisle that I was making a mistake"
But it was teh kind of "knowing" that slipped away before it fully reached his consciousness, censored out bc knowing threatened to deprive him of the loving acceptance he wanted so badly. To listen to his doubts, to allow himself to know them, to weight them, was to inhibit action, forcing him to question his decision to marry and confronting him with the loss of a fantasy he wasn't prepared to abandon
The experience of not knowing what we know is a common one, so common, in fact, that much of the work of psychotherapy is helping people to attend to that fleeting knowledge that lies right at the edge of consciouseness. Somewhere inside an inner voice gives warning. We hear but we don't listen; we know but we don't allow ourselves to attend. So it was that Petar "knew."
Well.... that explains a lot: /
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On being an outsider:
"Even if he wanted to, it would be nearly impossible for Petar to "do like they (his political scientist peers) do." His lifetime of having to make his way as an outsider hasn't prepared him for the kind of conformity that's necessary to be on the inside. Instead, he's so accustomed to marching to his own drummer that he often has difficulty attending to the beat of the world around him. It seems natural to him to think what he calls "the big thoughts," to be more concerned with philosophical inquiry about what drives nations and people than with the narrower questions about political behavior that engage more traditional ploitical scientists
Still, while he defends his work passionately and is disdainful of the main current in his discipline, he's not without conflict about it. On the one hand, he's proud of his independence, of his refusla to bow to disciplinary canons for the sake of narrow carreer goals. But having in effect thumbed his nose at his collegagues, he's pained when they don't give him the approval and accetance he craves. "they're busy ploshing their buttons while the world's going to hell, and I'm writing books about the world going to hell and nobody's buying them," he complains caustically. Then, with a dmisimssive wave of his hand, he concludes, "That's the story of my life, not fitting in, so what's the big deal?"
The attempt to shrug off his feelings, however, is belied by his melancholy tone and his body language, which tell a tale of dejection and rejection. So when I comment that it does, in fact, sound as if it's a "big deal" to him, his reply is etched in a kind of weary resignation. "Yes, it would really be nice, very nice, to fit in like in my (new) wife's family. But I'm always a misfit, so I don't think I'll ever get that lucky, I mean, to fit into a departmetn or a discipline."
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Did you guys know that there are principles embedded in Jewish life that call upon Jews to make peace; it's a responsibility they bear. If you're a Jew, you can't turn down the opportunity for peace. Is there any imperative in Christianity, such as this?
Here's a quote from Jewish scripture about peace.....
'He who establishes peace between man and his fellow, between husband and wife, between two cities, two nations, two families or two governments, no harm should come to him.'
This person, who has overcome and grown beyond a tormented childhood, has a will to be that peacemaker. Not only political peace but an internal one.... a release from the anger that's dominated his life so much, up to this point.
Though the anger has been a huge part of his transcendence, goading him every time he stumbled or failed, it also plays a part in his marginality, even when it's no longer necessary.
So, now he's trying to relax into his life and experience his joy...... and ready himself for inner peace he's just beginning to know.
Cool.
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Lighter You Are Truly A Wonderful Person-
Yes, there are many Christian exhortations to peace, i.e., "Blessed Are The Peacemakers", etc. Christian is "like Christ" and Christ was an extremely devout Jewish religious person, educated in the Temple. So the Jewish responsibilities of peace, charity, humanity and obediance, etc. must be taken up by Christians, though there may be those who use the name in vile ignorance to hurt the Chosen people.
Your transcendent child sound so much like my brother, an Ivy League professor, with many doctorates, businesses, riches, famous friends, and a complete cut-off from his FOO since the age of 16 when he went away on full scholarship to an Ivy Leagyue school- no parent ever went to the school, checked his living conditions, sent money or clothes-EVER. I am many years younger, and I would wake up every night covered in sweat after fearful dreams about him coming to harm. I adored him, but I guess he didn't feel the same about me. He never wrote me or visited me in foster care.
I am obscure and stuck by my NF through his final illness- what does that say? I love and admire my B, though he would say things like "There is no point in going to law school unless one is in the top 10 percentile of an Ivy League school", etc., and his wife,an attorney educated in a top 3 Ivy League law school, would cry that he would not talk about our NM ever, and she couldn't get through to our NF- she wanted a whole family universe.
Lighter Sweetie-I hate even thinking about this subject- I have a hole in my solar plexus where a family should be- but what you posted is both instructive and evocative.
Love and Thanks,
Changing
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I really love this thread,Lighter. With Peter,I think that he was saying that we must listen to ourselves as one of the keys .
Could you put on some more stories,if you don't mind? Ami
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Oh Changing.... do you not have contact with your brother at this point?
I can't imagine leaving my baby sister behind, no word, no contact no anything while she was alone..... sort'a...... in foster care.
((((Changing))))
I also feel so sad for your brother..... going off on his own and braving that Ivy League school by himself. How scary.... how badly he must have suffered, feeling like the odd man out. I'm sure he was covered up with his own problems but..... it's a cold adrenaline that hits my stomach picturing you in foster care, with no word from him. That you couldn't even care for each other actually hurts my stomach. You bc you were too young and it sounds like caring for you father.... him bc of problems we can only guess at and maybe that it was just too painful to come back?
I could sit and question you like a drill sarge but...... I want you to stay focused on school and telling us details about the attorney and on what you''ve managed to salvage with your brother, if anything.
(((Changing))) You are a transcendent child...... I know you are.
Ami.... I'm going to post more about the stories as I read them.... so much info attached, didn't want to post too much. How much detail would you like in the stories?
What did you think of information listed so far?
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I think that the puzzle to getting whole has many pieces. The transcendent child offers valuable pieces. I still think that the most important piece is to connect the gut( feelings) with the will. I think that trusting one's primal emotions and perceptions is first. That is of course,if they GOT disconnected.Not everyone is disconnected. Ami
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((((((((((((((((((Changing)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
You,of course,did not "plan " to be an inspiration or probably even want to go through so much that you could be an inspiration to others. However,I ,often, think about you Changing. You inspire me to go forward . Love Ami
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Reading just the last few posts, this came to mind...
from the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 10:
16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.
17 "But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues;
18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
19 "But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. 20 "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
30 "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 "So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.
32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 "For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and a man's enemies will be the members of his household.
37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38 "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39 "He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
40 "He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.
The peace Jesus brought to earth and made possible at the cross is the peace of reconciliation between God and man... not the sort of peace this world dreams of. That is my belief.
Hugs, y'all
Carolyn
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Lighter,
Thanks for posting about this book. I am thinking of buying it, so I googled the title and found the following review. I believe the reviewer is saying that although these people may have transcended, they may still be affected by the abuse. Food for thought.
The Transcendent Child: Tales of Triumph Over the Past by Lillian Rubin, Basic Books, $23.00, 1996, pp. 229
Reviewed by John A. Speyrer
The Transcendent Child is about children, who by succeeding in life, were able to transcend or overcome their deprived and traumatic childhoods. The author, who herself was a transcendent child, has always wondered why she was able to overcome severe obstacles, but her brother could not. She asks why some, who fall down seven times are able to get up eight times? I don't believe Rubin's book answers the questions she poses, but it does present eight interesting stories of people who have overcome unbelievable handicaps to eventually lead successful lives.
Lillian Rubin, a sociologist and psychotherapist, believes that one's genetic potential is a factor in determining one's ability to adjust to life's vicissitudes. She believes that an early life of abuse and neglect will not necessarily be reflected in one's adult life.
The author writes that transcendent children share certain characteristics. They possess determination which gets them through childhood relatively unscathed and this determination helps them succeed in later life. She says developmental psychologists view human potential as not necessarily subject to such simplistic determining factors as early trauma. Thus, she believes that a child who is abused does not have to become a child abuser. And even those who lived a seemingly perfect childhood can turn into unhappy and neurotic adults.
Another characteristic of these children is their ability to leave their families early, both physically and emotionally. This took them out of their pathological family environment early. In each of the case studies, the children had special interests or abilities. This might be the real reason why they came to the attention of the author. In any case, a strong decision not to be like their parents is another characteristic of these children. These "transcendents" also seem to be able to attract mentors later in life when needed. These helpers and advisors are able to assist the person at critical times since they remain open enough to receive the guidance and advice of others.
Often the children did not feel sorry for themselves and did not act out the life script of victimhood. Rubin believes that self-help groups sometimes fosters a feeling of victimhood by its participants. In any event, she believes that we have a choice of whether or not to fall in the trap of victimhood.
* * *
I don't know how happy these former transcendent children are as adults, but they seemingly are professionally and financially successful. Alice Miller's concept of a "gifted child" is similar to the author's "transcendent child" since they both have solid defense systems which keep their neuroses at bay. An issue not discussed by the author, but one which those of us interested in the regressive therapies know is important is -- what kind of birth and infancy did these exceptional children have? Second line traumas are easier to work around and resolve than issues of birth and early infancy. In Imprints: The Lifelong Effects of the Birth Experience, Dr. Arthur Janov has written that ". . . a decent birth is at least half the job of child rearing and may be equal to years of positive experiences with parents. . . whereas an improper birth leaves one vulnerable to even the most benign events." So a closer examination of these seemingly well-adjusted persons might reveal psychopathology. And a look into earlier phases of their lives might solve this puzzle of the relative absence of neurosis.
So, after all, did these children escape the effects of horrendous environments including beatings, sexual abuse, and abandonment? I do not believe that they really escaped. In many of the stories, psychopathology in the adults is described. And being successful is not a standard for being well adjusted and happy. Equating mental health with good functioning and prosperity is an error. The invulnerables were really not so since one's neurosis and act-outs may be to succeed to matter what. Most of these transcendent children have had exemplary careers. In their cases successful careers equated to extraordinary natural abilities, strong successful defenses and perhaps great determination to show that they had not deserved the abuse they received.
If these children are judged solely by their behavior it would seem that they have transcended their traumas. But their repressed experiences are still present even though, as a child and as a professionally successful adult, they present a facade of being well adjusted by acting with social grace and charm. However, a defense does not eliminate repressed feelings.
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Hmmmm.....In reading the posts about the Transcendent Child, it called to mind some painful thoughts and also some questions. The part I found disturbing was how once again an author is disparaging those who are on the receiving end of this kind of unique abuse by admonishing them for thinking of themselves as "victims" or "wounded" and for engaging in support groups. Is there any kind of abuse in more need for the support of others than those who grew up in an N household or who has been involved in an N relationship where they did not have a voice? In my view, it is definitely not about wearing a scarlet V for victiim on your chest, but rather finally, finally, FINALLY getting validation that you were abused or hurt by someone, since you will never receive it from those who harmed you in the first place. To me, this is just so critical. And I resent it when people throw out the victim accusations. It's like they don't want you to discuss it or explain the abuse and what it has done to you, but rather to just "move on", transcend the whole experience. But those who grew up voiceless need to "voice" those experiences more than anyone. Why? Because we have so much to say. Because our feelings, wants, desires and needs were never acknowledged. To me, heaping an accusation of wallowing in victimhood is just another way to dismiss us, diminish us and hurt us.
But I do think the author brings up some interesting points about "transcending" your abuse which, of course, every therapist aims to do. In the beginning of one of LIghter's posts, the idea was discussed that a brother might be a pessimist and a sister might be an eternal optimist. Is this just genes or a reflection of the type of childhood experiences each had? And, if you were stuck with the "pessimist" genes, what can you do to transcend your experiences?
The author said that those who were most isolated or ignored in such families would go on to find others that would "adopt" them, so to speak. But we know that is not always the case. So what happens to those who are not adoptable for whatever reason? How do they transcend their experiences?
I've read a lot on the subject and it seems a pervasive attitude seems to be that focusing on others is the answer to transcending these types of negative experiences. Believe me, I firmly buy into the idea that abuse or not, it is a good thing for people to give to others and try to make a difference in others' peoples lives. But having done some of this, I also know that it does not help to transcend your own pain. Yes, it's great to help others but in the end, it really doesn't help fill up that Grand Canyon of a hole left by an N family. At least I don't think so. Perhaps time helps. I also thinks validation and acknowledgement helps, even if it doesn't come from anyone in your family or from those who committed the abuse. Validation means it actually "matters" that someone hurt you, that you didn't deserve the abuse and that you have value. In my opinion, as someone on the receiving end of Ns, there is not sufficient validation.
I think someone who has experienced an N relationship faces a different kind of abuse then let's say, a child of an alcoholic or drug addict. They are all horrible, terrible abuses of course. But it is obvious to most people if a person is an alcoholic or drug addict. It doesn't take a lifetime to understand that alcohol or drugs contributed to that parent's behavior. Not so with an N. NPD affects the very self-esteem of the person affected (children, spouses, siblings). It affects everything you do. It is painful. It is sad. Pretending that it's not by merely moving on, getting over it, won't change that. That is not to say you should wallow in it But before you can move forward, you have to receive validation, understanding, ackowledgement and peace.
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Judeo-Christian Peace
(Job 22:21 KJV) Acquaint now thyself with him, and be at peace: thereby good shall come unto thee.
(Psalms 119:165 KJV) Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
(Psalms 122:6 KJV) Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
(Psalms 122:7 KJV) Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.
(Isaiah 26:3 KJV) Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
(Isaiah 26:4 KJV) Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:
(Matthew 5:9 KJV) Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
(John 14:27 KJV) Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
(Romans 5:1 KJV) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
(Romans 14:19 KJV) Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Lighter, all of us should "follow after the things that make for peace"- I hope that anyone who does not want to deal peaceably with you, whatever their religion or creed, has the good grace to leave you alone and begone to the infernal regions!!!
My B did not even come to our F's funeral though the evil StepMonster may have had something to do with that, and he doesn't answer my communications. I still love him in very much the same way that I did as a child, a free, boundless and unselfconscious kind of love, and feel great respect and affection towards him as well. I think that he fears and is repelled by my emotional knowledge and understanding of him- what I love and value in him are the intangibles, not his vaunted intelligence and such. I keep track through reading about him on the internet- his writings, goings on, famous friends, his institute,lectures he gives, etc., even arguments he is involved in on sites. He looks well in his photos. I would do whatever I could for him, and can see so much of him in the Transcendent Child information. I only wish that our family was not so fractured and cast to the winds, almost totally decimated now, and he did not seem to have to bury his feelings about our NM so deeply after she took off, or have to run from our raging NF. He is a very cerebral man but there is a truly sweet side that has been deeply wounded and remains touchy, making him appear brittle and chilly.
Pensively,
Changing
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Dear Changing,
As I read your post,a thought hit me that I wanted to share.I think that your B has so blocked out any sense of a "past" . He is the new man" without a past" b/c the past was too painful for him to take in to the present.
I think that this must have been his coping mechanism. He is all the "new" things that he is now. He is none of the things before college where he was able to redefine himself.
Maybe ,he feels like he is built on 'glass" and one little mention of the past will send him shattering. I bet that is why he has not included you in his life.
I think that he is a very fragile person who is keeping himself intact by blocking out everything that has to do with his child hood.
Just a thought. Compost what does not fit.Changing, I just wish I could give you a big hug and kiss and a nice hot cup of tea( with blueberry muffins)I send my love in to cyberspace,dear. Love Ami
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Indeed, this is a fascinating thread, and personally insightful and affirming, and CB's writing, is so akin to my own life story, childhood and womenhood (to include over 20 years of marriage).
My childhood resiliency, being able to cope, with no role model or mentor, I too looked to and chose mentors from novels, the public library being my haven and sanctuary, oh, the sheer pleasure and joy of selecting new books to read was immeasureable.
School did not provide a support network, however, I managed to select an inner role model and mentor.
Silence has been my life, and, assuredly, silence is not golden, nor is it emotionally healthy.
Whilst being there for everyone, resilent, most certainly, it did not equate to happiness.
This thread is awesome.
Leah xx
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Lighter,
Thanks for posting about this book. I am thinking of buying it, so I googled the title and found the following review. I believe the reviewer is saying that although these people may have transcended, they may still be affected by the abuse. Food for thought.
The Transcendent Child: Tales of Triumph Over the Past by Lillian Rubin, Basic Books, $23.00, 1996, pp. 229
Reviewed by John A. Speyrer
The Transcendent Child is about children, who by succeeding in life, were able to transcend or overcome their deprived and traumatic childhoods. The author, who herself was a transcendent child, has always wondered why she was able to overcome severe obstacles, but her brother could not. She asks why some, who fall down seven times are able to get up eight times? I don't believe Rubin's book answers the questions she poses, but it does present eight interesting stories of people who have overcome unbelievable handicaps to eventually lead successful lives.
Lillian Rubin, a sociologist and psychotherapist, believes that one's genetic potential is a factor in determining one's ability to adjust to life's vicissitudes. She believes that an early life of abuse and neglect will not necessarily be reflected in one's adult life.
The author writes that transcendent children share certain characteristics. They possess determination which gets them through childhood relatively unscathed and this determination helps them succeed in later life. She says developmental psychologists view human potential as not necessarily subject to such simplistic determining factors as early trauma. Thus, she believes that a child who is abused does not have to become a child abuser. And even those who lived a seemingly perfect childhood can turn into unhappy and neurotic adults.
Another characteristic of these children is their ability to leave their families early, both physically and emotionally. This took them out of their pathological family environment early. In each of the case studies, the children had special interests or abilities. This might be the real reason why they came to the attention of the author. In any case, a strong decision not to be like their parents is another characteristic of these children. These "transcendents" also seem to be able to attract mentors later in life when needed. These helpers and advisors are able to assist the person at critical times since they remain open enough to receive the guidance and advice of others.
Often the children did not feel sorry for themselves and did not act out the life script of victimhood. Rubin believes that self-help groups sometimes fosters a feeling of victimhood by its participants. In any event, she believes that we have a choice of whether or not to fall in the trap of victimhood.
* * *
I don't know how happy these former transcendent children are as adults, but they seemingly are professionally and financially successful. Alice Miller's concept of a "gifted child" is similar to the author's "transcendent child" since they both have solid defense systems which keep their neuroses at bay. An issue not discussed by the author, but one which those of us interested in the regressive therapies know is important is -- what kind of birth and infancy did these exceptional children have? Second line traumas are easier to work around and resolve than issues of birth and early infancy. In Imprints: The Lifelong Effects of the Birth Experience, Dr. Arthur Janov has written that ". . . a decent birth is at least half the job of child rearing and may be equal to years of positive experiences with parents. . . whereas an improper birth leaves one vulnerable to even the most benign events." So a closer examination of these seemingly well-adjusted persons might reveal psychopathology. And a look into earlier phases of their lives might solve this puzzle of the relative absence of neurosis.
So, after all, did these children escape the effects of horrendous environments including beatings, sexual abuse, and abandonment? I do not believe that they really escaped. In many of the stories, psychopathology in the adults is described. And being successful is not a standard for being well adjusted and happy. Equating mental health with good functioning and prosperity is an error. The invulnerables were really not so since one's neurosis and act-outs may be to succeed to matter what. Most of these transcendent children have had exemplary careers. In their cases successful careers equated to extraordinary natural abilities, strong successful defenses and perhaps great determination to show that they had not deserved the abuse they received.
If these children are judged solely by their behavior it would seem that they have transcended their traumas. But their repressed experiences are still present even though, as a child and as a professionally successful adult, they present a facade of being well adjusted by acting with social grace and charm. However, a defense does not eliminate repressed feelings.
Regarding my sister, and myself, I was resilient and was supportive to my younger siblings and even later on managed to study and build a career.
Whereas, she did not, and went from one drama to the next.
This made her inwardly resentful of me, though just how much resentment she held for me was not evident until she did something cruel and atrocious against me a few years ago.
I have wondered much recently as to whether Is it genetic?
My sister, sadly, is a mirror of my mother.
Whereas, I can match myself to a paternal aunt.
This thread is amazing and so very timely.
Thank you all from my heart.
Leah xx
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I wanted to say some things to Sun Blue. In my first reading of the thread ,I had the same reaction that Sun had. I think that she has a very valid point.
The way that I look at it is that MANY answers can be right. Not just ONE answer is the WAY.. The Transcendent child concept has good ideas but they are not THE DEFITNITIVE ideas.
I could see how they could seem too "simplistic". In a way, they are. However, they are only one small piece in a large puzzle. The puzzle is "How are we going to become whole? How are we going to reclaim what was stolen from us?These are the questions that we have to keep asking UNTIL we find our answers.
Some concepts ,like the Transcendent Child ,seem to shame a person( in a subtle way) in to giving up their OWN search for wholeness. The Transcendent child concepts can be taken as a "get over it" type of thing.
I know ,now, from my hard fight to find wholeness, that there are many more people and concepts out there to drag you down rather than lift you up. I don't know why. I have had several loving people who lifted me up and held me ,when I could not hold myself , as I searched for my 'insides". I had others try to push me down with some version of "Get over it."
The truly 'transcendent" person just keeps going. God will provide people just for you. He will provide love and special touches just for you.
It is supernatural.
So, I understand how the concept of the Transcendent child can be taken in both "good" and "bad" ways. For me, I am able to" take what I like and leave the rest" b/c I trust my gut to lead me where( and with whom)I need to be.
Sun, the best resource you( and all of us) have is our gut.It is precious. Try to build it up as you would a muscle. It will provide many riches for you Love Ami
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Did you guys know that there are principles embedded in Jewish life that call upon Jews to make peace; it's a responsibility they bear. If you're a Jew, you can't turn down the opportunity for peace. Is there any imperative in Christianity, such as this?
Here's a quote from Jewish scripture about peace.....
'He who establishes peace between man and his fellow, between husband and wife, between two cities, two nations, two families or two governments, no harm should come to him.'
This person, who has overcome and grown beyond a tormented childhood, has a will to be that peacemaker. Not only political peace but an internal one.... a release from the anger that's dominated his life so much, up to this point.
Though the anger has been a huge part of his transcendence, goading him every time he stumbled or failed, it also plays a part in his marginality, even when it's no longer necessary.
So, now he's trying to relax into his life and experience his joy...... and ready himself for inner peace he's just beginning to know.
Cool.
Dear dear Lighter,
Many times I have been scorned and ridiculed for having forgiven my perpetrators, and remaining in contact with my ex-husband.
"Blessed is the peacemaker" is not something that I ever thought of consciously, yet, looking back, that has apparently been my behaviour, as has been testified of me.
Yet, I was never angry, which annoyed some! Hurt, very hurt, desolated yes, but not angry.
So much to share, and not sure how to share or say it.
But my life, now, in October 2007 has meaning, makes sense. It is though I have been given understanding and peace.
As to G-d's chosen people, which is my heart, as a true bible believing follower of Christ, in Acts 10:36 it says ...
"This is the message of G-d sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of shalom through Yeshua the Messiah, who is Lord of all"
Shalom means 'Peace, Wholeness, Completeness'
Apostle Paul said in Romans 1:16 ...
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."
"Yeshua, a light to lighten the Gentiles and the glory of God's people Israel"
Yeshua, is Jesus' name in Hebrew, means 'Salvation, Deliverence, Victory.'
Matthew 1:21 "You are to give him the name Yeshua because he will save his people from their sins."
Love to all, you lovely people.
Leah xx
Matthew 5:9 - Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God."
Sermon on the Mount - The Beatitudes
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This particular thread of conversation prompted thoughts of resiliency and hope for me. Resiliency of course is always thought of as a positive trait and it is. But what causes one person to be resilient and another not? Is it the amount of pain or loss or negative experiences a person has? Is it the amount of love or encouragement they received growing up? Is it the balance between good and bad experiences a person has? Or is it an unfailing faith that no matter how much bad stuff comes your way, things will turn out all right?
I'd really, really love to be more resilient but I'm not. In my mind, it's because I've been kicked a lot and each time it gets harder and harder to pick myself up. In my current situation (unemployed) no one works harder than me to find a job. Yet, over and over, I am rejected. I'm sure similar situations are evident for others here, whether personal or professional. So when life has shown you that no matter what you do, no matter how many times you try, things always turn out the same, how do you stay resilient? How do you stay hopeful?
I'd really love to hear from people on this topic and perhaps who have shared my kind of experience. I just honestly don't know how to do it. When you've been disappointed by literally everyone in your life and all efforts for digging yourself out are thwarted, how do you remain resilient and hopeful?
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Dear Sun,
I think that it is important that you don't use the "concept"of the resilient child to beat yourself over the head with. I think that I hear you doing that( subtly).
There are so many variables in each persons situation that it is impossible to really compare.
The main point is your situation and your feelings.
I think that you have to do just what you were doing before you felt guilty that you were not going fast enough(it seemed).
I think you need to keep facing the truth of your family and your situation.
As you face them( and it is really hard),you will begin a process of healing.
I think that it is counterproductive for you to compare yourself to some "mythical' person who is doing"better ' than you are.
I agree that N is a worse abuse in a way that alcoholism (for example) b/c N 'looks good" so you doubt and deny your reality. Then ,you get very lost to yourself.
I think that you were on the right track when you came on the board(IMO) Love Ami
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Dear Sun Blue,
I wanted to tell you that I agree 100% with your post about victimhood undercutting validation. I think for people like you (& most of us on this board), we are not simply whining, rather we are looking for solutions and trying to comprehend, to process our experiences and define who we are & where we're going.
Reallyme discussed this victimhood issue on a recent post and I pretty much said what you said here.
I also wanted to tell you that I think your posts are very intelligent, you are very perceptive and profound; I'm particularly thinking of your "How long this Journey" thread.
I did like what Lillian Rubin said about falling down 7 times & getting up 8 times and in view of your employment problem, you are doing that, so you are resilient. Heck, I think everyone on this board is resilient, I mean we're here, trying to make sense of our lives, right?
So, Sunblue, I say keep on keepin on with what you're doing. As far as work, can you brain storm and see if there are other "roads" that you haven't previously considered? I also think that it's probably really hard to find a job while your mind is also focused on unravelling your FOO. I think that it takes ENOURMOUS ENERGY to deal with FOO issues.
So you have a double burden of looking for a job and fathoming your FOO, your identity and I wanted to acknowledge that. Just try to be gentle with yourself and give yourself love.
Glad you're here, Sunblue.
Love,
sally
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Personally, my thoughts are that 'The Transcendent Child' book is merely a resource with testimonies of people's life experiences of which one can draw on as a means of external encouragement, and hope.
We must all of us here on board must have a measure of resiliency - else we would not be here!
But what measure of resiliency?
All I can say is that we are unique individuals and that it matters not the measure of resiliency - but that we have it!
The journey is unique to each individual person.
What's the rush?
The best fruit on the tree grows slowly to maturity - and tastes the sweetest!
Personally, unravelling a life time of baggage and exchanging my lot for some semblance of meaning and understanding took an age that was retrospective to my ability, to look at and deal with each item, slowly, one at a time!
It has been three years ......... well spent ....... and invested .... for my future!
Another person I know did it all in less than one year .......... that's okay ...... we're not the same.
Be patient, nurturing and gentle with yourself.
You're worth it!
Love,
Leah
PS ... Resiliency quote: "What is right with you is more powerful than anything that is wrong with you."
That's why you were never asked the question, "What's right with you" !!
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I had enough time to read everyone's posts, but not respond.
Lots to say and will come back with a bit more info about the people in Rubin's book.
I have to say..... I value support groups.... but I wouldn't want to stay in the same place of 'feeling' like I did last year, this time.
I want to move through and beyond.
I want to feel the light and I want to feel warmth... I couldn't sense the heat of a 105 degree floor, lying on it naked :shock:.
I can feel now, breath now.... think. I'm laughin and I wouldn't be laughin if the members here were just validating my pain and not encouraging me.... showing me..... sharing with me how to move through it, which they did.
I think that's what Rubin was talking about.
Staying mired and identifying with their pain and victim status, rather than finding new paths and joys to explore and take ownership of, though they may never really feel worthy or comfortable in that position, might work for some.
Not me.
Back to fake it till ya make it?
Maybe so, I can't really tell for sure tonight.
I certainly didn't see that she minimized healing.
She seemed to be pointing out what she witnessed specifically and identified as keys to transcending.
Her years of experience, including her own years of abuse and struggle to overcome, are as valuable as any, yes?
Even if they don't support everyone' views or journey..... they still have a message.
We can consider it and do with it then use it in part or discard wholesale, as always.
I do love the conversations though stemming from her book though.
Changing..... all the sudden I'm speechless..... regarding your brother and fractured family. Just so profoundly sad.... he doesn't have any idea what he's missing, with regard to you. I can't understand it..... at all. He separated from the family and never looked back aparently. Just like in the book. His way of surviving but..... the cost seems staggering to me. ((((Changing)))) You add meaning, laughter, knowledge and strength to my life...... I wish he could receive those things from you too: /
Going to put babbies in bed.
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Sally:
Thank you so much for your kind and encouraging words. I think you very well understand my perspective and comments. No one wants to stay entrenched in pain or loss but validation is just so important when you've never received any. I appreciated that you took the time to respond, so thank you.
Changing:
I felt so sad to read what you wrote about your brother. I can so identify with your situation. To me, it is just unfathomable to just walk away and not look back. It is something I am currently struggling with my own brother. Although he has not totally turned his back on me, he is certainly distancing himself from his whole biological family. I can't tell you how much that hurts. It really causes me to wonder how one type of sibling (we sisters) can want and need to have a close relationship with a sibling yet they don't need or want that. Why don't they? How can they not consider our feelings and needs? I know this. It is just incredibly painful to always want and never get. How do you not take that personally?
As a therapist once told me, it is a hole in your heart that can never truly be filled. At some point I suppose you just have to busy yourself enough so that it doesn't eat you up alive. I certainly haven't reached that point yet.
Changing, I so wish that your brother would reach out to you in some way. I wish he would show you that he cared about you. You deserve that. It's bad enough to lose parents to NPD, but to have to lose siblings as well is so hard. I really admire you for your attitude about it. It's just so not fair to you.
It is just unbelievable to me that a sibling, who has spent presumably at least 18 years of their life with you can suddently turn away from you. I always think that in this whole entire world you only have a few who you can call your sister or brother. In my case, only one I can call brother. How can that be so insignificant to someone? I just don't get it. But I respect your healing and your ability to deal with it. I wish I could accept it like you have. Hang in there and I hope you at least have other people in your life who can show you care and attention.
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Validation
Validation of ones life journey along the stony path was the greatest gift ever to me, as never ever had I received even so much as a tiny droplet.
Indeed, my first thread posting here on this board in January'07 was just that! Validation.
Still has a wow factor!
Love and encouragement to all you lovely people,
Leah
PS re: the quote "the only way is through" ....... is so true, and it is possible!
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Looking back over posts here....with regard to validating feelings.....
I never got the message that we should skip validating feelings from Rubin, or anyone here.
I got the message that we should validate and encourage each other to think about self care too.
Why would it be helpful, to a divorced woman, to belong to a group of other divorced women.... still feeling their pain as fresh and keenly as the day it was wrought with no thought as to paying bills or moving through the pain, even after years of feeling it at the same level?
Spending time ONLY on validating pain, so it remains fresh, seems counterproductive to me.
In my opinion, we can validate and talk about the logistics of healing and improving our lives.
I don't see them as mutually exclusive and I'm pretty sure, without going back to peek, that Rubin didn't say they were.
I guess we could ask..... how long is it appropriate to feel the deepest depths of our pain and stay with it, without interruption or any input, aside from validation?
Is that the question?
CB..... I'd love to see that paper on resiliency if you come accross it. I'll google it when I get a chance, anyway.
I can remember teachers standing out for me, not bc they mentored but bc they asked me to step up to the plate and befriend other students..... to please go and tutor socially challenged children who were struggling.
Believe me, I wasn't a stellar student I can't imagine being asked to tutor :shock:.
Why me?
I didn't bother asking.... I helped and I received a different view of myself.
It certainly took me out of my selfish narrow child's view of the world. It never occurred to me that Mentally challenged Rhonda F needed a friend. That socially awkward painfully peculiar Jerry M's life would be impacted forever by the kindness of another student.
I can remember the moment of stopping and turning my head into those thoughts, though they weren't that well thought out.
It was a lightbulb going off for me.... I wish I could remember more about how I handled the befriending.... I remember tutoring very well. How odd I can't remember helping Jerry and Rhonda. Maybe I didn't.... that would be so sad.
What if I'd had a true mentor? I didn't even have grandparents after I was 7, not in State anyway.
I certainly would want them to help expand my horizons.
I never felt validated by the teachers..... I was a very private child.... I never would have asked to be validated.
I see no value in extended validation, if not joined with honesty and encouragment to move beyond our bonds of pain and self doubt.
I think being challenged and meeting challenges is what makes us survivors?
Having our pain validated isn't in question, it's necessary.
I'm not disputing that.
It's to what extent and in exclusion to what, IMO.
It shouldn't exclude all other input..... that wouldn't be something I can identify with and believe me..... I've heard different versions of "get over it" and "you got yourself into to this, sorry" so I don't think I'm advocating that in any way.
Acknowledging the trauma over and over, for the purpose of remaining in deep pain, (like the divorced woman in Rubin's example) doesn't appeal to me, never will and, like Rubin, I don't discern any benefit.
I also have to throw a red flag on the use of the word 'whine.'
Who's used that word against someone on this board, or in Rubin's book?
I haven't seen that word used here, but again I don't read every post.
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All these posts about validation reminds me of a situation I had with a therapist once. He wasn't a very empathetic person and wasn't good at validating, even when I told him what I specifically needed. But one time we were having a conversation about this very topic. He would acknowledge (rather begrudgingly the abuse or pain I was feeling) but would always follow it with a "but...now what, what are you going to do to move forward, etc, etc." I stopped him and said Wait, Hold on. When you always follow the supposed validation with a "but", you are diluting the very effect of the validation. If you're going to validate, then validate. Otherwise, it doesn't serve any purpose. When he said that to me, my first inclination was that A) he didn't really have any interest in validating my feelings, B) he didn't value the process of validation and thus C) he wasn't really "seeing" or understanding the extent of pain and abuse I've experienced.
I think different people need different levels of validation depending on their experience and where they are at in their healing. I would suggest that if you have never had any validation, you cannot move forward without receiving it. Because your family and the Ns in your life have never validated the pain they caused, have never validated you or shown you that you have value, when others fail to do this, it just emphasizes the lack of validation.
In my own experience, I have found that when I try to explain this issue to someone, their response is something like "Well, of course I recognize that you've gone through a lot of pain and abuse." My reaction is that "No, it is not obvious to me. I need someone to SAY it out loud. I need that empathy, that compassion, that validation expressed in a very verbal way because I never received any in my life. So, my only assumption could be that the reason I never received it was because I didn't deserve it. So it becomes really important for others I seek out to validate my experiences in what may seem to them in an obvious way." THat could be just my own experience.....but inevitably I find that people (like the therapist I mentioned above) want to skip that validation, empathy stage and move right into the "Ok, how can we move you forward" stage. For me, that stage cannot begin until there is some validation and acknowledgement. I think empathy (not sympathy) and validation is so critical to someone who has experienced an N relationship. They feel they have no value. By refusing to validate what that person has gone through, the devaluation only continues.
I also think some people are better at offering empathy and compassion than others. My brother who is a black and white, logical sort, is really not capable of it. He immediately wants to zero in on a plan, "what are you going to do now?" sort of thinking. I get that. I think in those terms too. But I also desperately need the other and when I never get it, it is really hard to move on to the more practical stage.
One last comment. Different people get different things out of support groups. I agree that some people depend on them perhaps too much or too long. But I also think they have a value that nothing else can quite replace. If you're an alocholic and go to an AA group, you know that those people "get" you in a way that non-alcoholics can't. Even within that group of alcoholics, individuals are at different stages of healing so they can also help in areas relating to life stages. How to get back on your feet financially. How to repair a personal relationship ravaged by the alcohol. Overall, I think support groups allow you to communicate and learn from people who have uniquely experienced what you have, because the truth is only those who have truly experienced the same things you have can truly understand. When it comes to the N world, that is just so helpful because NPD is not one of those obvious illnesses. THe abuse is not always evident to other people.
Anyway, I think people take what they need from support groups and boards and such depending on their own experiences. I know this board helps me to understand. I have always tried to help and mentor others in my life and right now and teaching children through my church. I'm glad to do it. But sometimes if you've been hurt like we all have, you just need to get something back for yourself.
IMHO
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Dear Sun,
I have two words of advice. You are very smart and very insightful. Use these as a compass in the dark night(if I can be so forward)
TRUST YOURSELF Love Ami
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Genuine Validation ~ Genuine Empathy ~ Genuine Compassion
Truly are so vitally necessary for us all, each and every one of us, upon every step of the way along our healing journey to wholeness.
And from those who find it hard to give of these precious free gifts - then any measure will do, providing its genuine.
When I first received Validation here on this board, it was like walking on air!
Love,
Leah
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Lighter,
Thanks for this thread. It really resonates with me. It makes me more determined. Really wonderful stuff.
Pops
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I was not a resilient child. I think that very early damage is worse to recover from than later damage. If you get some love when very young, you do have a basis to develop from. I don't believe that i had that, being poisoned from mercury before 6 months and rejected by an n mother who could not cope with a screaming child (central nervous system inflamation) then a break in the bond from a long distance hospital stay.Rejection by the rest of the family followed.
The deep damage can only start to heal imo when there is true and genuinely felt compassion and therefore validation. I did not receive that until this year. I just kept on making mistakes and sticking with toxic relationships till then. Not that I blame them entirely. Someone so damaged is hard to relate to I guess. I was such an emotional mess that I did not know my own mind nor who I was. Even those who were not overtly abusive must have found me hard work. And the ones who were abusive had a field day.
I even gave up not too long ago. That was truly frightening as I am a fighter by nature.
The only way I have survived is through God waiting patiently as I tried to resolve my problems on my own secretly not trusting Him fully, and letting me fall down on my face many times.
Then when I gave up He stepped in.
All of my former relationships have disappeared out of my life even my own children. Even the church i was going to. I see now that it was the only way I could heal in such a deep and profound level although there had been a small amount healing in the past 3 years since my second marriage broke down. Each loss has been very painful to me.
And now healing is rapid. I am having past abuse revealed to me and it is hard work to work through it and to see how 'blind' I was and how dysfunctional, but each step is more freedom and more clarity and I feel whole at last, filled with peace and joy .
I have never had a mentor or anyone to help. The one counsellor I saw for a year actually caused me harm. I saw another recently and saw she was too clinical. So my healing has occured independent of others. But I did find the support here helped me. I really don't know whether I agree that a mentor will necessarily appear.
I was a hopeless case but God has stepped in and done the necessary. Some might be fortunate enough to have high intelligence and something else to save them. I had none of that but still have overcome. There is hope for all.
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Dear Mati,
I am in awe of what you wrote. WHAT a success story------ . I am so,very glad that you are here to inspire and bless all of us.
Love Ami
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Sun: I've found validation here too. This is a place we can go where people understand. We connect with certain posters...... some are wonderful at giving empathy and validation..... others are better at coordinating strategies and helping us think ahead at the logistics of healing and recovering our lives.
The Thinkers vs The Feelers?
Maybe.
I think men tend to want to problem solve, as a matter of gender, rather than validate and feel with us.
LeasRainbow: You amaze me every time I read your posts. You're handling your situation so well..... I bet this board did help you a lot. It helped me too.
Poppy: Thanks. I'm enjoying this thread and watching you post about your journey: )
Mati: Sometimes/usually, I think falling to our lowest depths is exactly how we find God. Lots of people talk about him, are raised with him, assume they know him....... then they find they had no idea about him till they were gravely ill or giving up.
You're figuring out what's been happening in your life. What your part is in it. How to overcome and stop repeating destructive patterns...... so now.... your life has become an adventure.
When I think about your infancy..... a dull gray lead's settles in my stomach. I'm so sorry that happened to you..... every baby deserves a loving parent...mindful care. You deserved it and you were denied, not bc you weren't lovable but bc your mother couldn't do any better. She was broken and it wasn't about you. It was about her and her limitations.
You're worthy and coming to understand what happened and figuring out how to make better choices. You're a fighter and absolutely have the power, and right, to guide the course your life takes, from here on out.
I'm so sorry it has to be so hard...... no child deserves the difficulties you've experienced.
Thank you for sharing your experience on this thread, Mati.
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You're figuring out what's been happening in your life. What your part is in it. How to overcome and stop repeating destructive patterns...... so now.... your life has become an adventure.
I want my life to be an adventure :D.........not just a disaster area. :shock:
It is an attitude I am practicing............
Poppy
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Ami
I just want you to know just how much your continuing words of encouragement mean to me. Thanks. ((((Ami)))))
lighter
Thanks so much for that. Even though we know God we can still continue to work in our own strength until one day we really give it up in a much deeper way than we have ever known. If it is still our own strength then it will be a struggle but when it is all from God it is miraculous.
Yes it is an adventure now. Everything is new and my old patterns have gone for good. It started when I told my minister that I was unhappy that he was invalidating my feelings. This is such a new me that I can hardly believe it! Of course he did a disappearing act and so has everyone else and I am totally alone but I am enjoying it and do not feel lonely at all. How can I be alone when Christ is at my side. Its all about being totally all out for Him and what He wants.
Actually I have had some mentors, just they are dead. It has been through books by writers who taught holiness and this is the key to my healing. When God gives us commands He also gives the means of obeying them when we walk in the Spirit and have crucified the flesh. It is only when we are in this position that we can have total and complete healing. We all have a little place where we have not yet submitted prior to entire sanctification and it is when we submit here that the miracles start.
Mati
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Learning to be OK, when we're alone, is very important.
We can't figure out how to GET ok.... until we've sat with the aloneness and moved through it.
Your faith in God is enduring.... just don't forget to have faith in yourself, also.
It's his will that you value yourself and attend to self care.
I share this bc it reminds me of your story with your pastor, where he dissapeared after telling him he was invalidating you.
In a book on faith..... (forget which book now) there was a Nun. She was the very best Nun, grew up knowing she'd be a Nun and never questioned it.
When she got cancer and found herself in the hospital, dying...... she doubted God's existence and shared her anger about those feelings with the visiting Priests.
They went away, horrified, and never came back to visit her again.
It was there in that dark lonely angry time...... that she really found God. She made a connection she never realized she was missing.
For all the years she thought she was in touch..... for all the belief she thought she held..... it was her most down lonely barren moments that lead to the Grace of God.
This story meant a lot to me.
I believe it to my bones.
In the end..... the Nun made peace with God and realized she wasn't alone or frightened.
She died without fear.
The Priests never came back.... and she didn't miss them.