Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Poppy Seed on October 18, 2007, 06:26:55 PM

Title: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Poppy Seed on October 18, 2007, 06:26:55 PM: I think that this is my greatest hurdle with regards to loving myself. I can do it with the feast .....but loose it when there is famine. I have thought a lot about this over the years. Read the books and articles about it and felt the inability to perform the skills.

I am learning that the kinder I am to myself, the kinder I am to others.

I am learning that if I fill my own bucket to overflowing, that I have so much excess to give to others -- a giving that doesn't cost me anything.

I am learning that I am worth my loving efforts just as any friend or person I meet.

I am learning that God doesn't withhold his love for me. I shouldn't either.

I am learning that loving myself might not have anything to do with how well I do stuff or how high I can jump.

I am learning that maybe it is ok to believe and then act on all I am writing above.

I am learning that I just need to do it....even if I don't feel it. Perhaps feeling it is the fruit that comes after the effort.

I don't have to withhold love for myself if I make a mistake. I am finding that I have more love when others make mistakes. And more ability to react to mistakes in loving ways. Especially with my kids.

I am learning that it is not shameful to love myself and to think that I am good.

I am learning that loving myself is not requisit on anyone else's opinion. I can love myself in the face of rejection and criticism. Not sure how yet...

Maybe loving myself is a sacred cow that no one else touches but me. It is a place that no one else goes but me and God. Is that true???

I wonder how others play a role in this building of self esteem or self love. I know I feel better when others care about me. I need to be cared about, seen, heard, valued, needed. I think we all flower following a positive nod. But what do I do when, those things don't come to me. When I don't feel cared about or seen. When I don't feel acknowledged or needed. When the slights happen. When the unfairness happens or the injustice or persecution? Basically the inevitable realities of daily life. Learning to deal with this in a self loving ways is difficult for me. I don't have enough armor. The tempations to punish.....to doubt my goodness....to cave......to give too much to get love....etc. This feels so gooshy. So without form. So without strength and anchor and place. So driven with the wind and tossed by whim and stimulus.

I want to stand tall and sit fat in love for myself. In spite of the opinions and attention of others. I know I have met people like this. I want it too! I want to feel it in the face of my worst adversary. I want it to overflow so my love can be available for my adversary. I want that kind of love to keep me safe. Something I always rely on. Something I always trust. This is the kind of love fortress I want to build. I want my love to include my weaknesses, not withdraw in the face of them. I think of the list of true love or charity. Longsuffering, kind, seeketh not her own, patient, etc. is this possible or am I dreaming???

I don't want to remain walled off from the world because I can't love myself.

My thoughts here are a little random.......I hope you all can follow me.

Poppy
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Ami on October 18, 2007, 06:47:15 PM: I UNDERSTAND -----Poppy. Keep formulating the questions in an honest and fearless way. Maybe ,we can all get there,together. Love Ami
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Ami on October 18, 2007, 07:45:38 PM: Dear Poppy,
I had your heart cry in the back of my mind. I have been thinking more about it.I think that many of our feelings of being 'unable" to love ourselves come from fear.
I think about myself.I am afraid to be my authentic self.I am afraid that I am 'bad".I am afraid to be shamed or that I will shame myself if I "screw up" I think that I am mostly afraid of how I shame myself if outside circumstances arenot "right".I think that if I could take away my "shame" button,I would be pretty good(The fear button,too)
I was just thinking that maybe the root of how hard it is to love ourselves is fear----in some way--even if it is not 'obvious"
Great topic.I wish that I had more concrete things to add. I am waiting to hear from others Love Ami
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Poppy Seed on October 18, 2007, 09:27:02 PM: Ami,

You have been so kind and empathetic with me today. And I am so grateful.

I was thinking that at some point I need to come to terms with my weaknesses. I think that I see the things I don't do well....not all of them.....but there are a few zingers that really kill my self worth when they pop up. I sometimes hate myself because I see those weaknesses. Especially the ones associated with my inability to succeed socially, regain my confidence, stand up for myself without following it up with caving in. It makes me ask "what is wrong with me?" I am awesome! I am cute and funny (when I feel good inside) and I am a loyal friend. And I try to tell myself that nothing is wrong with me. But at the end of the day, I am convinced that I am defective. But I can't exactly decide what the defective thing is. I think that maybe my pain has eaten away at my good parts. I think that I fear that I will live the rest of my life with essential parts missing. I have spent the better part of the last 15 years praying and searching for answers to my oh so obvious weakness. I can't decide some days if it is weakness in my deep beliefs or just literal undoable damage. Or maybe it is just the believing that I am defective that sinks the ship. It is hard when I know I have these problems....and then people see those weaknesses too and distance themselves from me. How am I not suppose to think that maybe something is wrong with me? Do I have bad breath? Do I bug people? What is the dang problem? Is it something I could fix if made aware? Or is it that I suck. My mother, inlaws, H, all fail to see good in me. So are they all wrong???? (These are my thoughts when no one is looking.)

I feel that feeling like enough is enough! Not one more day not loving myself!! Not one more year lost!! Not one more second in this groping for capability.
I am done waiting.....I am done searching in others to get my needs met. I am sick of waiting for someone else to love me or teach me or fill in the blanks. And then comes this incredibly feeling of powerlessness against this giant mountain in front of me.

I am making progress. I see my thoughts and feeling changing in microscopic increments and I am greatful! I will take whatever I can get.

If it is fear.....then dang.....I will face it. I am more tired and at my whits end than I am afraid. Nothing can be worse than where I have been. And I refuse to stay there.

Poppy

Ps. Do you all tell me to keep sharing because you think I haven't shared enough? Cause it feels like I have posting like a mad woman. Am I not being honest or fearless enough????? Maybe I am not sharing details from my childhood. I know I haven't done that and I am not sure I will. But I do share feelings that I know have been there and I do share my weakness and strugglings and blindness. Could you clarify what exactly you think I am missing?
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Ami on October 18, 2007, 09:39:04 PM: The way that I see it (I could be wrong) is that we were programmed with ALL these lies. We need to do whatever it takes to "exorcise " the lies. For me,I just keep to try to face all aspects of the truth of me,my feelings,my past, my pains,fears etc BUT also the truth of my value.
I am seeing ,little by little , that what I was taught about myself is a lie. It is very slow,for some reason.I don't know why.
So,my own quest is to simply follow all the lies that I have swallowed until I come to the end . Then,I hope that the garbage can be cleared out and I will fill it with Truth( what God thinks about me)
That is just my own particular road map that I designed.
If you have deep child hood pain,I think that you should share it with a loving person somewhere(if you don't want to share it here).
Sharing has a way to take away the shame which is a core problem in making us 'hate"ourselves.
This is just my own plan that I devised. It is working --slowly--but I got sick slowly ---so I guess healing is slow ,too. Love Ami
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Ami on October 18, 2007, 09:55:29 PM: Dear Poppy,
I think that whatever plan that we chose ,we have to have the core of it be to take away the lies and replace them with the truth.If we could wave a magic wand and do it now,I think that we would be well.
If we could take away the lies that we are bad, worthless and worthy of shame and guilt and simply be able to replace the lies with how much we are loved and valued by God--VIOLA---- We would be healed--happy,loving ourselves,loving others and at peace.
Too bad that the VIOLA is not instant.
However, that is my general plan out of craziness in to health .I will send a postcard when I arrive. love Ami
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Hopalong on October 18, 2007, 11:37:42 PM: Dear Poppy,
Your posts are perfect, whole, lacking nothing.

You gave me a mantra that I love...thank you!

STAND TALL
and SIT FAT...self-love!

love
Hops
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: sunblue on October 18, 2007, 11:58:11 PM: Hi Poppy:

I'm sorry you are not feeling worthy or valuable. Others can tell you how valuable you are, but of course it is much more difficult to believe it unless you were taught to value yourself. I think most people can identify with that feeling. I know I can.

I do know this. Even though conventional wisdom states that we should all love and value ourselves just as we are, even when others don't do so, it is really, really difficult to practive that theory. It is only human nature that we feel good if others (particularly those we care about and value) reciprocate and let us know they think highly of us. When you're alone, it is just so hard to maintain that level of high self esteem when there is no one else to give you a boost and reinforce those feelings of self-esteem. If anything, this lack of external validation only serves to reinforce our own feelings of weaknesses, failure and negative traits.

Personally I don't know how a person continues to value themselves when no one else in the world values them. It's not impossible but it is difficult. I can't say I know of any person with really postiive self-esteem who doesn't also have other people affirming their positive traits and value.

I think also these feelings of "lack" come from us always focusing on what other people need and not what we need. It is our nature to boost others, to value them and affirm their self-esteem. We hope and expect that it will be reciprocated but all too often, it never is and that just creates a deeper sense of devaluation and disappointment. I'm sure your family and loved ones do value you. They just don't see a need to express it in any tangible way. I think for those of us who have been involved in N relationships or families, we just need to actually hear that others value us and to demonstrate what it is about us they value. It helps to combat all the negative self-talk we engage in ourselves.
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Bella_French on October 19, 2007, 01:23:58 AM: Dear Pops,

I am positive-energy lover as much as anyone, and I am mostly fine with that these days. Its motivating, and also nice to be around people where I `fit' and am liked.

But when I'm constantly dealing with negative people and conflicts, I really start doubting myself and trying to change myself to `fit', when usually it is just more useful to change my environment. There are some places and situations where I will never fit, no matter how zen I become. For example, i wouldn't feel comfortable walking into a boutique club where only models and superstars hang out, knowing that I don't fit. I could get plastic surgery and take drugs to make myself thin and seem cool, and then those people would give me positive energy. But my attitude is why not just find where I fit, instead of trying to be `zen' about it and trying to cope with all the negative energy from those people because I don't fit?

Positive energy is wonderful and like a soft fluffy cloud. Why should life be without it? Surely we all fit in somewhere, where people like and appreciate us? Especially someone like you, Pops.

I guess what I'm wondering, is your environment the problem here? Are people around you giving out too much negative energy, and are there too many conflicts? I know; people are so adaptable and its always appealing to try to adapt rather than change a situation, especially when its hard to change and you are attached. But change is also an option, and sometimes its the better one.

Just a few thoughts:)

X Bella
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: lighter on October 19, 2007, 06:14:06 AM: Yes, much harder in the lean times.

But..... there's something hard about the rich times, as well.

We tend to think we're stronger than we are and can handle more than we can.... we tend to not be diligent, once we have a little confidence under our belts.

I love everything you're working on here..... you've framed some of these concepts in a fresh light and expressed some so that I really take it in, for the first time.

(((Poppy))) The board is so much richers with you: )
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Ami on October 19, 2007, 08:10:31 AM: I have been thinking about your post,Poppy. My general plan is to first empty out the garbage---like you would clean a house.I do this by facing everything as honestly as I can. There is lots of garbage(believe me). I am at the bottom of the dumpster,I think. Then,I put in the truth about me(I am loved by God). So,I see 2 phases of the program. Garbage out and truth in.
My feeling is that you can't reserve a part of the 'garbage that you won't face or it will stay there and shame you.
My thought is to tell it all and face it all--- some where where people can "witness' the pain and the shame and you can see that you are still lovable and still standing.
Compost what doesn't fit,of course. Love Ami
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Certain Hope on October 19, 2007, 09:13:25 AM: Dearest Pops,

The sort of love you describe is supernatural, I believe.... not something a human being can ever stir up within herself.
Agape love, without conditions or bounds, and springing from only one Source.
Effervescent love flows from the center of those who are in intimate relationship with that Source, but they never become the Source itself.
Comparing ourselves among ourselves is not wise, so the Word says. This is what my heart hears you (and myself) doing, at times.
I think we gotta knock off the comparing.
Only one opinion counts and until we acknowledge that as the foundational fact of our entire lives, we're doubleminded and unstable in all of our ways. Who's piloting the ship? I know that when mine is spinning around in circles, going nowhere, it's usually cuz I put my clumsy mitt on the wheel.... or... maybe I let someone else drive by giving them too much control over my thoughts. Thoughts sprout feelings, so they warrant due careful attention in the earliest stages. What about all those old thoughts that've taken deep root? Ouch. That's where the post, post, post - get it all out there - comes into play.
You ever feel like you're operating by remote control? I do.
It's why I'm still here.
And once in awhile, someone like you will care enough to say - hey, are you okay?

Poppy, you really are okay... your mind just doesn't know it yet. I don't think anyone has any more vain imaginations swirling around in their brain than I do. What are we told to do with those? Cast them out. There's no gentle motion in that. No tolerance. It's "Begone with you!"
Such is the process of renewing our minds.

You are not alone, just not many folks speak of the pain of these wonderings, Poppy. I often can't, because it gets stuck in my throat, but when I read you, it bubbles up and sometimes out. That line - you will know the truth the truth will make you free - well, that can be quite a puzzler when your head isn't even sure what is truth and what is falsehood. What if we miss a truth? What if we never add it all up in time to live a productive life? Hmm... from what I've read and what my heart is struggling to retain in full view.... there is only one truth and it has nothing to do with whether or not any human being in this world finds me or you acceptable in their sight. It's THE Truth which makes us free... and that Truth is the Way and the Life, as well.

All of this frustration and pain and doubting and struggle... I feel that I bring all of this onto myself when I forget that I'm not supposed to be able to sort this all out on my own and make it work. I know that every single trial and test has the purpose of directing my eyes to The Truth... and yet I lapse back, lunge forth, lapse again, around and around... questioning, resenting, demanding, crumbling...so many feelings over which to trip.
And yet I know in my heart of hearts that, when all is said and done, I can do none other than to declare: Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him: but I will maintain my own ways before Him. That can feel like such a lonely place to stand... but only for a moment.

I hope that you can see how very much you're needed and valued and appreciated here. If it weren't for you and a few others, my voice would be still choked within me. It's in the interaction, the fellowship, that these thoughts and feelings are released. Please remember that it's a process and not a quick fix... and especially that you are never alone. It's not by might, or by power, or by fancy words and eloquent speeches that hearts and lives are changed for good, you know? If I didn't know that for sure, I would never open my mouth or type another sentence! : )

Much love to you,
Carolyn
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Poppy Seed on October 19, 2007, 09:30:51 AM: Writing this post last night awoke a boat load of pain... And this morning I am feeling the strength of that old...and new burning pain. It is all right there in front of me. I am too familiar with it. I have listened to it, and learned from it, and carried it tirelessly......and now it is time to lay it down to sleep. I need to figure out how.

Sunblue and Bella,

I think you too said what I couldn't say.....or didn't feel like I had the right to say. But thank you. Thank you.

I don't fit in where I am. I don't fit in my marriage or neighborhood or FOO or il's. I don't have a best friend. I have a few friends that are there because of what I give them. I am relatively invisable. My marriage, for the most part, is about him. I care for him, listen, walk by him through recovery. When I need him, he goes away. My childhood was lonely. I was so alone. Nothing much has changed since then. So much rejection! It is now too much. Too heavy. Too sad. Too lonely. I can't carry it anymore. I am waiting patiently for God to send the manna. I have been strong. I am strong. But ...... I know when my will outweighs my strength.

I think I hear this voice inside of me saying, " Go away from here! Try something new! Stretch you wings and fly!" But my responsibilities keep me on the ground. Divorce seems like my best friend and my worst enemy. And how do I make a choice like that and change who my children are? How do I live with myself? If I was getting beaten or chased or harmed.....it would make sense. But my H is doing all he is capable of doing. I have no grounds to leave. Yet, I am dying on the vine. I tell him. I cry and get angry. I wait in silence and hope that he can figure it out. I ask him for supports. I asked him to move me. He thinks we have a good investment now. And he is right, we do. But inside, I wish I were more important than the fiscal responsibility. You know?? The truth is that he is learning how NOT to be self absorbed. And although I have hope, I am going to be on my own for a while more.

I think every human needs to be important to someone. To have that voice that teaches them over and over how wonderful they are. I have lots of voices and circumstances that say the opposite. I shout that I am good! But it is hard to hear over the rush of the waves. I ask for what I need, explain. And I find silence. I feel done with these people and want to move on to the greener pastures. But I don't have any idea where they are. And now my confidence is shot and I get so nervous. Like a dog that has been hit too many times. I don't know how to find the group or person where I will find that. If only you could see the lengths I go to try. I have tried too much.

I really want to end this on a happy note. The truth is that I do have hope. In this way, and against all the evidence, I have hope even though I struggle with the unrealized nature of my life.

Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening.
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Certain Hope on October 19, 2007, 09:47:38 AM: Dear Pops,

I hear you and I feel much the same as far as requests for supports being unheard and priorities being askew.

And I hear some magical thinking in the works... as though somewhere, in a distant land unknown, there are people who would be different...

and I just don't think there are.

It's said that we teach people how to treat us... and so we have.

Well, I guess we could start fresh with a new batch... but I wouldn't feel right about that.

Just my thoughts.

Love to you,
Carolyn
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Poppy Seed on October 19, 2007, 09:59:34 AM: Ami,

I hope that this thread is seen as a desire to dump the garbage.

I am trying to make a list of all the thoughts in my head that I need to chuck!

Like.....most of what I just wrote in my last post! :)
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Poppy Seed on October 19, 2007, 10:39:21 AM: Ok. Enough with giving a voice to the pain. Been there (too long)......done that (too many times). Pain is enevitable but suffering is optional. My new commitment!!

This is my best solution.....

1. I need to rely on the Savior more in my life. I need to make Him the center. Not just someone to involve at the time of crisis. ( That is a hard thing to admit. But it is the truth about me right now.) I need to build this testimony so I don't walk alone.

2. I need to serve more. I need to get into the lives of others. Loosing my life for His sake -- then I will find it.

3. I need to pray for and seek out friends. Open myself up. Not let fear get the best of me. I need to meet people -- lots and lots of different people.

4. I need to do more work rewriting the tapes...........I need to stop playing them until the rewriting has taken hold.

5. I need to find an area of self expression. I need to find this soon.

6. I need to love myself without conditions or compulsory means. (this means permission, self care, and just plain old doing it)

7. I need to make peace with my enemies.

8. I need to forgive myself for my weaknesses. Everybody has them, right? Christ takes care of the sin part, and the human part is there to help me grow. So it is all good!! Right????

9. I need to build my confidence. I don't know exactly how to do that.

If I have taught people how to treat me, how do I change that? Has anyone had success with that?

If I could banish the shame voice, erect and strengthen internal boundaries, and love myself without needing the outside world (Relying upon God and not the arm of the flesh), then could I stand tall and sit fat in love.......?????? I don't know. I will tell you when I get there!!!

I don't want to be deminished by my experience! I want it all to make me better, kinder, more loving, understanding, etc. That feels like Gods work too. To turn it all for good.
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: tayana on October 19, 2007, 10:52:18 AM: Quote
Do you all tell me to keep sharing because you think I haven't shared enough? Cause it feels like I have posting like a mad woman. Am I not being honest or fearless enough????? Maybe I am not sharing details from my childhood. I know I haven't done that and I am not sure I will. But I do share feelings that I know have been there and I do share my weakness and strugglings and blindness. Could you clarify what exactly you think I am missing?

Pops, I don't think we can find that ideal self-love, because we aren't perfect. We aren't going to love ourselves all the time. There are going to be times when we feel low, feel pitiful, unlovable, and worthless. That's human. In our situations, we've been made to feel this way more often than we should. It's very different when you are told or treated as worthless almost all the time. You learn to crave those rare moments when your N said or did something almost nice. My mom would do that. She would do things when she got to feeling guilty and I would think things were going to change, but they never did. They might for a few days, but then it was back to the same pattern, the same feeling of being worthless.

I think you are doing wonderfully. It's hard work, isn't it? It's very hard to be able to look at ourselves honestly and carefully and say, "hey, I have all of these good qualities, why did no one ever notice my good qualities." My T made me make a list of things I liked about myself and things I didn't like. The didn't like list was much longer than the other, but I did have some on the like list. And we talked about those things on the other list, how many of them weren't true. Namely that I wasn't selfish, cold and unpassionate. Those were the top two things on the list. I think it's a valuable exercise. I didn't like it. I hated it in fact, but I have to admit, when I was forced to look at that list of negatives, really look at it honestly, many of those things weren't negatives at all. One of them was that I give in too easily to M. I don't discipline enough. I've been thinking about that concept of discipline, thinking about what that really means. It's not about punishment. It's not about getting in trouble. It's about training our minds and bodies to do what they need to do, that's the sort of discipline M needs, and he's not going to get that by taking away TV privileges for not cleaning his room. When I think about all of the punishments I remember as a child, I remember being spanked for things that were very trivial. I remember being slapped for not organizing my closet properly. I remember enduring days of the silent treatment for voicing my frustrations in a private diary. I never had privacy. I was always afraid of messing up. If this is the sort of discipline that I need to teach my child, then I want no part of it. I despised it growing up, and I don't think M should grow up that way. So, even though that was on my list of negatives, it's slowly moving onto the other side with the positives, "I'm trying to teach M a better way, so even though I get angry when he doesn't cooperate, it's mental discipline that I want to foster, not the sort that makes him afraid of me."

Does that make sense?

I don't think you have to share details from your childhood here. I think you just have to accept the truths of your past and move on into a healthier present. In a way, those of us with N parents are trapped by our pasts. We're trying to please people who can never be happy, will never be happy with us. Nothing we do will change that. We can make all the sacrifices we want, but it's not going to change the fact that our Ns are just going to take that sacrifice for granted and ask for more.

I think you are doing an excellent job. You are moving forward. You are doing good things. Fill your life with friends who are positive and with positive things. Cherish the little things, the sweet moments, and the times when you feel really good. I don't feel as good today as I did yesterday, but I can feel better tomorrow.

The last chapter I read in my book was about letting go of the past. I highlighted some of the statements, but here are a few that I remember and some that I added.

They all start with just because . . .

Just because you are my parents, doesn't mean that I have to please you, give up my life for you, do what you say, or make you happy now that I'm an adult. You are responsible for your feelings, not me.

Just because I feel down today, doesn't meant that I won't feel down tomorrow.

Just because you are my child doesn't mean that I have to live through you, sacrifice myself for you, and do everything for you.

Just because you are my boss doesn't mean that I have to do all the work you don't like, just because you don't want to do it. I am capable of saying that I am unchallenged and want a change of work, and if you won't give it to me, then I can work elsewhere.

Just because my childhood was unhappy, doesn't mean my son's childhood has to be the same.

Just because my parents never took the time to play doesn't mean that I have to do the same.

Just because my family never learned to manage or save money doesn't meant that I have to continue the legacy.

Just because my parents say that my life is ruined, doesn't mean it's true.

Try this exercsie, Pops. It's really freeing. Just think about tall those things you want to change and write them down. Write them down and look at them everyday. Eventually, you'll start believing them.
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: CB123 on October 19, 2007, 12:11:20 PM: Hi Poppy,

Hmmm. I just posted an answer on the G28's thread about N's. Maybe I should have posted it here? It could go either place, I suppose, because these two threads kinda overlap.

Anyway, my post is over there. :shock:

Love
CB
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Poppy Seed on October 19, 2007, 12:19:25 PM: CB,

I know my lack of wisdom is glaring! 8) I hope someday I will be able to access and express that kind of wisdom. Your comments fill in a lot of blanks. The stuff I need and didn't know it. (referring to your latest post on the other thread. Could we copy and paste it over here?)
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Ami on October 19, 2007, 12:47:12 PM: Dear Poppy,
I was thinking of some things that might apply most to people who believe in the Bible. However,I was thinking that if we could even take one Scripture and really,really have it come true for us(in the heart),I think it would be enough to heal us.
For example, if we could truly get it(in the heart) that God loved us so,so much that He suffered so horribly so that we could be with Him, then we could be instantly healed of all our problems.
I think that the core problem is the LOOOOONG 18 inches from the head to the heart. Just a thought.
Love Ami
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: sunblue on October 19, 2007, 12:47:51 PM: Hi Poppy:

I sense that you are struggling and I hope that soon some of the burden of that struggle will ease. I am not familiar with your personal situation but I do know that you have many friends here who value and respect and need you. In reading your last post, though, a couple of thoughts came to mind.

First, you mentioned that your husband is working on not being self absorbed and that it will be awhile yet before things change in that regard. Do you believe he is truly capable of that change or will he make only enough changes to get through the next "crisis" phase? If he does happen to be one of those rare individuals who can be self-motivated enough to do a 180 change, will he then be that person you can see yourself spending the rest of your life with? Will that "version" of him provide you what you are missing in your heart and soul? In my view, now is the time for you to think a bit selfishly. Easier said than done, I know, especially because you have children.

And on that topic...You mentioned that since your husband doesn't beat you or abuse you, you really have no reason to divorce him. Of course, only you can make this significant decision. But I would venture to say that your long-term unhappiness, your feelings of loneliness and lack of attention and value from him are very good reasons to consider your marital future. Aren't you worthy of more? Aren't you deserving of a partner who lets you know how loveable and valuable you are? Isn't it right that you invest in a partner who will reciprocate and help you meet your needs and fill your heart with love and care and nurturing? I would say you certainly are.

You also said you are worried that a divorce would change your children. But in my humble opinion, they are already being changed...and shortchanged. No matter how hard you work at providing a semblance of a happy, loving home, when one of their parents is so unhappy with the other, the children will know. They will also learn to model that behavior in relationships they have later life. The best thing parents can do for their children is to have a loving relationship with each other and model that for their children. Children want to see their parents happy, both of them. Yes, separation or divorce would be very hard on them, but so is living in an environment where their parents aren't happy. And the way you describe your circumstances, you have every right to be unhappy. You are not being treated as you deserve.

What kind of person would YOU be in a different environment, either with a different partner or by yourself with your kids living a different kind of life? Would your children witness a mom with more joy, more hope, more love for herself and others? Would that be worth the heartache of going through a major life change?

If all of this is too significant to ponder, perhaps you can consider just one small change for yourself. I soooo identified with what you said in your post about the loneliness and rejection. That has been my lifelong experience. I have never had anyone take interest in me and have certainly been rejected a lot. Even though I have always been a very giving, loyal friend, that has never been returned to me. If your situation is the same, how about choosing one, single thing to do for yourself and make that a priority for you. Perhaps take a class you ever wanted. Learn a new language. Take a short trip to someplace you've always wanted. Plan a regular activity with your kids that you too would enjoy that gets you away for awhile. Join a health club and get regular massages. Anything. It doesn't matter what it is. All that matters is that the only motivation for the activity is YOU. Maybe you'll meet new people along the way. Maybe you won't. But at least it will change your daily routine and put you on a path where you can once again see that hope and change is possible. Indulge in yourself. Be a little bit selfish. Get a makeover. A real one. Make a concerted effort to keep those selifish "friends" out of your life.

Give those people you continue to give and give and give to over and over, a chance to miss you, to value you, to appreciate you. Sometimes when you're a person who continually gives and thinks of others, you are easily taken advantage of. Others assume you will always be there, no matter what they dish out Don't make it so easy for them. Instead, refocus on yourself. As much as is feasible and don't waste one single second feeling guilty about it. Your mental and physcial health depends on it.

Finally, remember your emotional and psychological health is just as important as your physical one. Just because a partner isn't a drug addict or alcoholic or doesn't beat you, doesn't mean he is good for you. This is your life so you need to do what is best for you, in the short run and the long run. When you do make those decisions, your children will ultimately benefit as well. Remaining in an unhappy situation for the sake of your children really doesn't help them or you. But if they can see a mom who pursues her own interests, who is happy and hopeful and joyful, that positive energy will spread all around. It may be that these smaller changes will be enough. It might serve as a springboard for your husband to change. It might change your daily life enough to allow you to make some other major changes regarding your marriage. Or, it just might give you a little happiness that didn't exist before.

Regardless, I really hope you can discover people who let you know how valuable and wonderful you are. Eveyrone deserves and needs that. I hope you can find people who are worthy of your care and attention.

Until then, there are many people who value you and I hope you will continue to share so everyone can remind you of that fact.

Take special care.
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Bella_French on October 19, 2007, 08:17:04 PM: Dear Poppyseed,

Hugs to you!!!. I know its so hard to face the big changes. I don't necessarily think divorce is the only solution open to you Pops. But I think being strong enough to face that possibility could be what you need to get taken seriously by your husband. Its more of a mental thing, where you can say `look, this is too important to me, and if I don't get it I will move on'. Asserting that sort of boundary only works if you are prepared to follow through, and so facing your fears can be so useful, and it may not result in them being realized.

My opinion is that the two of you have hope, but not as long he stays enmeshed with his family. It brings out the worst in him Pops, but you seem to sense there is potential, or you have seen it in him. The only real solution I can think of, Poppyseed, is relocating (far away). I think to make that happen, you'd have to plan it, like an exciting project, and be prepared to do it alone, whilst also inviting him to be part of that plan (if you want him to be)

My mother had to do this, Poppyseed, so I have seen it work. She married a Greek Man when she had three toddlers, and he was so enmeshed with his family. Greeks are domineering people, and this family were very ethnocentric. The hope was for the sons to live at home with their wives (who they picked themselves), and be intimately involved with the parents forever. 2 of his brothers did this, and still lvie at home, unmarried, in their 70's.

Back in those days, they preferred arranged marriages, too, so they did not approve of the marriage at all and interfered all the time. Some of the behavior was so deliberately rude and alienating for my mother. As a child i remember so many fights. My mother was fiery, and Dad was also fiery when pushed to his limits. I remember one time when he smashed every picture, along with glass frames, in the house. I expect it had something to do with keeping pictures of his ex (Greek) wife around the place because his parents wouldn't `let' him take them down.

Anyway, after around 8 years of it, she was at the end of her tether and my mother decided to move back to her home town with us. She had so much resolve, and my father must have known she meant it too. But in the end he agreed.

When they moved, they started a small accommodation business together in town which boomed in the 80's. After 15 years of running it, they sold it for many millions of dollars and retired in their forties. So in a way it was a happy ending, lol. ) except for the part where my mother was a somatic N went nuts, buts that s another story:)

Anyway i hope I kind got across what i trying to say; you only have to decide what you want, and face your fears. You may not have to go through a divorce, poppyseed.

Love and Hugs t you

X Bella
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Bella_French on October 19, 2007, 08:53:40 PM: Dear Ami,

Yes, thats what I mean:) You worded it so well!

I think it is important in any relationship to be prepared to live with the consequences of asserting one's needs, and that is SO hard when it means facing fear of abandonment or loss, or the practical difficulties of separation. Asserting oneself (and meaning it) could result in having to be the one who ends of the relationship, but oddly it so often doesn't. I think it may be because the fear of being assertive itself clouds things, and is bigger than reality (because we were programmed to believe there would be such totally harsh consequences each time we were assertive). It can be helpful to remember that the men in our lives are attached to us too; they are not our parents.

I am so proud of what you've learned, Ami.

X Bella
Title: Re: Loving myself without Affirmation from the outside
Post by: Ami on October 19, 2007, 08:59:07 PM: Thanks Bella.I am glad that you are there tonight.I feel really lonely and having you out there helps. I am going to make a cup of cocoa. I don't feel so alone.
Sorry for the hijack. Back to the original topic--- Ami