Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Learning on May 20, 2004, 11:24:12 AM
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Hi Folks!
My mom sent me a short email today requesting to visit her grandchildren. It was such a nice, simple email. Nothing there to get upset about. Should I let her come???? I don't want her here...but I do want her here. I want a mother who really loves me to come and visit me and my kids. Maybe I am wrong about her. Maybe she is just a victim like me in all of this. Maybe I can have a relationship with her. Then voice #2 comes in...but what about how mad you have been at her??? Now I can't remember exactly why...all I can think is that her best friend in the whole world is my Nfather...and about him I have no doubt! Is it possible for her to love me when she seems to care more for him than her offspring??? Oh she would deny that with a vengeance. S**t, I hate this. I wish I could just feel certain about what the heck I'm suppose to do. I wish I just knew what really is or isn't?
Crap, the tightness in my chest is returning. I knew she would be back, but of course I still am not prepared.
I hope you all understand my craziness and will not feel offended. I just don't know where else to vent.
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Hi Learning!
We never give up hope do we? I went round and round with this at my counseling session yesterday. She said the key to my freedom will be when I stop "admitting" the problems that my mom has and start "accepting" them as fact. I am like you in a lot of ways. When I get the smallest amount of "normalcy" or "kindness" from her I feel like that is a sign that things will get better. The hurt, damaged, desperate kid in us is just waiting for things to get better. They are just hoping and praying that one day we will wake up to a "good" mother.
In my case this is not going to happen. My mother has taken every effort I have given her and crapped on it. Basically she has said, bottom line, "my way or the highway" in different words than those. Well, I care about myself and PARTICULARLY my family (hubby, kids) too much to let that happen. She has done nothing but hurt me over and over again. The patterns are there right before my eyes - it is just time for me to admit them and see them for what they are - hopeless.
I hope that things can be different for you, Learning. I know it hurts and I know it SHOULD be different. But I also know how conniving and manipulative these people can be. So I pray that you will be realistic and not let your hopes get the best of you. Stay strong for your children.
I went back to a previous post by you and found this clip:
I moved 300 miles away from my parents in 1989. I did this to get away from all of the drama. Yet, every visit they have ever made my internal feelings have been the same. First I am elated that they are planning to come, I can't wait to share with them what is going on in my life. Then, about 5 days before their arrival, I begin to stress. My body is exhausted, my back is in knots and often I catch a cold. Once they are here, I am miserable. I don't even know if they are that negative towards me most of the time. But it doesn't matter, I still am a emotional wreck while they are here. I guess I am finally starting to realize that I am allowed to just accept my body signals as reason enough not to visit with them.
I found this interesting because in your post today you said
Crap, the tightness in my chest is returning.
Just an insight. You need to make the best decision for you and your family. If you make the wrong decision and get mad at yourself in hindsight, we will be here to support you. We have all done just that.
Take care of yourself and I will be sending you peaceful thoughts for wise decisions.
michelle
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Hi Learning, look what a panic a simple email put you in. That isn't right is it? That doesn't feel good?
I control when and how I contact my mother. And that's okay. So - take her request and consider it calmly, take your time.
I bet it wasn't a simple email though, with my cynical mind. I bet there's some little manipulation in there! Want to share it?
Hey why would any of us be offended??? We're with you! We understand your panic, well I do for sure. I understand those conflicting thoughts - maybe she's okay 'really' maybe I've been wrong all along....because all the time I STILL want her to love me. It's okay, that's normal, it means you're human, hooray! And not crazy.
I would say your first obligation is to your children. Would they like her to visit, would they benefit? Answer that first, then ask if YOU would like it, would you benefit? Then consider your mother.
And if you decide yes, you also decide when, where and how long for...etc etc..maybe decide on an external thing, maybe amongst other people? Whatever you would feel most comfortable with. Or if no, well there's nothing wrong with the odd white lie here and there - we all get migraines, stomach upsets or even have too much too do - so put her off, you would like to but no, not right now.
What do you think? P
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Hi Learning,
I have to admit that MY alarm bells went off when I read your note. I'm glad Michelle "mirrored" your experience in her reply. I thought, yeah, that's why the bells are going off!
Your hope and self-doubt are very, very familiar feelings. My H calls me a "moth to the flame" when I start talking like this. I went through this stage for a very long time, that is, hoping for change. Ns use this hope. They say anything to get what they want. If you resist the line that worked before, they find a new one that works.
I saw this when my enabling brother talked to me on behalf of his PSYCHO wife. He pulled out the stops. When one line didn't work, he pulled out another one and another one like index cards out of his pocket. "Lessee here. I gotta have one that will work..." That conversation was the end. We didn't argue. I just finally saw what was going on for what it REALLY was and told him Good Luck, she wins, see you later. I.e. find someone else to play with.
Then I went on to mourning the loss of my relationship with my brother. It was painful to realize I had him all wrong as well as his wife. I was holding onto a fantasy. But I am much happier now that I subtracted all that drama out of my life! I can stop reacting to them and act on my own behalf for my goals.
Now, if you are ready, you have to find the strength to say NO. If you don't have the strength yet, I support Portia's suggestion to meet at a place you can leave if things go awry (vs. asking her to leave your home.) Maybe ask yourself which is harder: saying no or going through another visit. It's okay to be "selfish" if it means protecting yourself. This isn't your fault that you have to be so suspicious. You would trust them if they were trustworthy. But it is important to trust yourself.
One last thing. Just because the Ns in your life haven't committed any crime recently doesn't mean the pattern of behavior has changed. It just means that they haven't had the opportunity. We can forgive the past, but that doesn't mean we have to give erring people more opportunities in the future to hurt us. Snakes are not good or bad, they are snakes, doing what snakes do. A rabbit finds it wise to keep some distance.
Hope this helps. Peace, Seeker
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Learning,
It's natural to have a strong ambivalence about your mother. This doesn't mean you should cave in to one extreme or the other. Think about the realistic consequences of her visit, then make your decision. My feeling is, if you let her come, you must at all times be present when she is with the children; i.e., supervise her visit. There is a reason you are trying to protect your children from her. I don't know what the reason is, but I think you should keep doing it.
bunny
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if you've decided there is to be no relationship, then ignore the email or reply with a firm no.
Remember- it's your life, they're your children, and you carry no responsibility towards an abusive mother.
If you do want to see her do it on neutral ground at a childrens' play place, maybe with the company of an understanding friend or your partner.
As someone said, acceptance is paramount- but accept your own ambivalence about it too.
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this link is food for thought on that
http://www.rational.org.nz/public/BeliefsQuestionnaire/bel12.htm
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Hi Learning.
Great advice from everyone.
Crap, the tightness in my chest is returning.
With self-awareness comes this: feelings do not lie. Trust your feelings. Has anyone else had a rough time of it getting in touch with your physical feelings, say, of dread? I think I got used to mine for a long time - having been taught in childhood that they weren't important. Over the past several months, I am letting them come up and recognizing that they are clues to what is really going on with my thinking about something. I base more of my decisions these days on what my body is telling me. I think intuition and feelings are linked in a really important way. A realization for me.
Can't add anything else. Don't worry about sharing your craziness. You don't sound crazy to me. I completely understand.
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I am new here and I have been up all night trying to find some answers to a current cache of problems involving more than one "N," a divorce and a child custody battle. I have read several posts from you guys and I speak your language so well, I am spooked. I am going to begin expressing my current crisis under a new topic and I would like for you to all read it and give me some feedback. PLEASE.
I will probably title it with the word "N- Divorce/Custody Battle" ...so look for it...and please forgive my spelling errors.
Thanks!
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Hi Learning!
We never give up hope do we? I went round and round with this at my counseling session yesterday. She said the key to my freedom will be when I stop "admitting" the problems that my mom has and start "accepting" them as fact. I
Michelle,
Your statement really hit home with me. I do the same thing... the slightest little bit of kindness, and I think.... "maybe this can work." Of course, it is just another trap.
Still we never give up hope. When I truly accept the reality of the situation, and stop floundering, I think I will find some level of peace. The closer I get to it the more peaceful I feel.
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Hi All-
I don't have much time, but I wanted to say "Thanks" to all of you for your great replies. I have alot of thoughts about what you have said, I just don't have time right now to pen them. I will come back soon to "talk"!
Learning
P.S. Michelle, a quick high-five for you regarding your returned card thread.
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Hi Michelle,
Thank you for your reply!
She said the key to my freedom will be when I stop "admitting" the problems that my mom has and start "accepting" them as fact. I am like you in a lot of ways.
That statement sort of sums it up, doesn't it? Up until a few years ago, I thought I had accepted my mother for what she is. In my mind I knew she had problems (which I attribute to her own childhood), but I had thought that for the most part she was just ditsy (best word I can think of, don't know if I spelled it correctly). I feel like I need to give an example. Once, she called me and said something along the lines of "Hi. ummm...I just wanted to call and say Hi and well, ummm, the craziest thing has happened. The only thing I smell is bitter almonds" I realize now that she knew I would immediately step up and try to solve her problem for her. I did...searching the internet for an answer...turned out she had a sinus infection. She could have just gone to the doctor, but no...whe brought me into her drama.
Now, I have begun to see, what I believe to be a deeper sort of manipulation and I have even caught her in one lie. I am wondering now if that is a pattern. I mean, for sometime I have wondered about her perception of life events, but I never thought she would outright lie about something to make me feel bad. But if she is an N, I guess it is the same thing. I just don't really know if that is what I am dealing with here.
My mother has taken every effort I have given her and crapped on it
I am so sorry Michelle. I have read through your return card thread. I am sorry your mom has been so hurtful. Sometimes I wonder how I got picked to be born to the people who are my parents. Do you ever think that way? I have expressed that to a few people and they usually respond that it must be because God thought I would be strong enough. I am not so sure about that, but it is the best solace I have when I am feeling really bad about the whole thing. I used to think it was my job to help them, I am now working on throwing that out the window. Nothing helps them.
That is my mother saying that to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All those bad things that I hear in my head about myself are her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Way to go, Michelle! "Don't let them define you", someone once said to me. Find your voice and ignore hers!!! I am working on that too!
Thanks for pointing out my body signals. I have really started to believe in the mind/body/spirit connection. Interestingly enough, my mother is the one who introduced me to that idea. What complex relationships we have with our parents :?. I want to be around for a long time to enjoy my children and their children. My health is very important to me. The other interesting thing is that I can be in some fairly stressful situations (ie. emceeing a charity event, child in hospital) but they still don't affect me as much physically as a visit by my parents. Hmmmm??
Bless you!
Learning
To Portia, Bunny, Seeker & Write--I am on borrowed time right now and I have thoughts about what you said, so I will respond as soon as I can. Take Care!
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Hi Screamer -
When I truly accept the reality of the situation, and stop floundering, I think I will find some level of peace. The closer I get to it the more peaceful I feel.
Those are very wise and truthful words. I like how you phrased that....think I will print it out for my fridge. :wink:
Hi Learning -
Once, she called me and said something along the lines of "Hi. ummm...I just wanted to call and say Hi and well, ummm, the craziest thing has happened. The only thing I smell is bitter almonds" I realize now that she knew I would immediately step up and try to solve her problem for her. I did...searching the internet for an answer...turned out she had a sinus infection. She could have just gone to the doctor, but no...whe brought me into her drama.
Oh my gosh. I am sorry but I laughed and laughed and laughed at that story. It is so much like my mother. Here's an example of her "drama"....one day she called me and when I answered the phone she immediately said, "well I have lupus are you happy". I was confused and caught off guard and she said it again. I said "why would I be happy that you have lupus? and how do you know you have lupus" and she said "because my joints ache". :roll: Nuts. Well, it turns out she has mild arthritis. Am I a medical doctor? No. She, like your mother, likes to drag me into her sick little world. Another quick funny story. When I was a senior in high school I couldn't give blood b/c my iron count was a little low. So of course she immediately diagnosed me with "anemia". I didn't have it of course and ever since then when I tell her I'm not feeling well, she says "well you know your anemic". My husband and I actually get hours of laughter out of this story just thinking about it. :lol: I FEEL your pain, literally, learning. :)
I appreciate your encouragement and concern over my returned card thread.
Sometimes I wonder how I got picked to be born to the people who are my parents. Do you ever think that way? I have expressed that to a few people and they usually respond that it must be because God thought I would be strong enough. I am not so sure about that, but it is the best solace I have when I am feeling really bad about the whole thing. I used to think it was my job to help them, I am now working on throwing that out the window. Nothing helps them.
Lots of wisdom there on your part, Learning. Yes, I often wonder "why me" where my family is concerned. I agree about God though. I am certain that he only gives me what I can handle. However, I also feel that some of the things he gives me actually "increases" my capacity to handle things for the future. Kind of hard to understand. I have deep faith though - He is my only consistent source of stability and strength. In a weird way, my religious beliefs have actually been part of what has kept me "chained" to my family. My counselor is a christian counselor and she has shown me the error of my beliefs in those ways. It has been eye-opening.
Good for you especially on working on changing your belief that it is your "job" to help them. your right, nothing helps them. And I need to hear that as much as you need to say it to yourself. Thank you.
I also like your statement "Don't let them define you". That's true and I am just learning about that. Wow. It's a weird and freeing realization!
I encourage you to continue to listen to your body. I think it is always telling us something, we just choose to ignore it a lot of the time. I am really learning to "cue" into my body signals, as you are.
I am happy you are "learning" to take care of yourself. Give yourself a big pat on the back and hug for me! :wink:
Michelle
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Hi Portia!
Thanks for your post!
I control when and how I contact my mother. And that's okay. So - take her request and consider it calmly, take your time.
Great advice! I have not replied to her yet, because I am still thinking about exactly what I want to do. I have also been trying to get and keep control of contact with both my parents. Mom knows mostly to email me because I don't answer the phone much. Dad keeps trying the phone...ironically :? he called the same day that she emailed and darn it I picked up. (note to self...always plug caller id display back in after using computer 8) ).
Ahhh, Portia, you must be able to read my mind. I would love to find something really manipulative in her email to share with you all. But, alas, not much to speak of...she did italics part of the message and not the other part (I can't make any sense out of that) and she did mention that she was going to a singing Fest this weekend (she sings in a choir). It could be that she just needed to share that info with me...but really, many people might do that.
I think that with everything I have said to her in the last couple of years she tends to walk on eggshells around me. I mean, she knows I will let her know if she is being inappropriate and she hates that. Plus I hold two important trump cards...my daughters. She tries so hard to be appropriate with me so that she can see them. And you know what, that further fuels my anger towards her. I'm not important enough to her, but they are? That only makes sense to me in the context of her using them as narcissistic supply. And then I think, no way, not my kids. They don't deserve to be used that way. I know all to well what it feels like to be objectified most my life.
I guess that answers your question about my kids. Yeah, they would like her to "play" with them, they love attention. But I just don't feel good about what she is really doing and I worry that they can sense that too. I also worry about they way she tries to find things to correct me about in my parenting. If I say "no snacks" because they didn't eat their dinner, she tries to guilt me into changing my mind in front of my daughters. She also sets no boundaries with the kids...and the children react by getting really wild and then me and my husband are tearing our hairs out. :x
Once when we were visiting her and staying at a nearby hotel, she met us for dinner at the hotel restaurant. She had to sit right next to my oldest (who was 3 at the time). I had brought some markers and paper to keep her busy so mom started to work with her. In no time at all, my daughter was laughing loudly and writing on my mother's head with a marker (it was yellow and mom's hair was yellow, but still...). My mom just sat there and let her do it and laughed. I suggested that she tell my daughter to stop it, she refused to. She wants my daughter to like her so much. My daughter sensed the power struggle between mom and me and used it to her advantage. (Absolutely normal on her part since she is 3.) My daughter started to run around the restaurant (she normally listens alot better than that)...now mom jumped in and decided she should take her for a walk (she got her all to herself that way).
I think I will use the old "this isn't a good time for a visit line". And thanks for the support about the conflicting thoughts and everything else. I feel such an inner struggle about all of this...about writing about it, about thinking about it, about the labels, about everything...yet I feel I must press on. Does that make any sense to you? Do you have similar feelings?
By the way, Portia, your name intrigues me. Is it a given name?
Take Care!
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But I just don't feel good about what she is really doing and I worry that they can sense that too. I also worry about they way she tries to find things to correct me about in my parenting. If I say "no snacks" because they didn't eat their dinner, she tries to guilt me into changing my mind in front of my daughters. She also sets no boundaries with the kids...and the children react by getting really wild and then me and my husband are tearing our hairs out. :x
This sounds like typical permissive grandparent behavior. Pretty common for an N grandparent to undermine the parents' edicts and rules. I think the choices are to set strict limits with grandma, or to just avoid grandma. That is, unless she agrees sincerely to abide by your rules. If she doesn't, she's packed up and sent home instantly. The only thing she will understand is concrete consequences.
Once when we were visiting her and staying at a nearby hotel, she met us for dinner at the hotel restaurant. She had to sit right next to my oldest (who was 3 at the time).
I think it's natural that she wants to sit next to her.
I had brought some markers and paper to keep her busy so mom started to work with her. In no time at all, my daughter was laughing loudly and writing on my mother's head with a marker (it was yellow and mom's hair was yellow, but still...). My mom just sat there and let her do it and laughed.
I think it's all right when a grandparent or relative is childlike and playful with the kids. I do things with my nieces and nephews that are immature and sometimes subversive. But not to the point where I'm fomenting serious rebellion. I'm still supposed to be a role model.
There is nothing wrong with grandma wanting her grandchild all to herself for a while. But if she's doing it to GET AT YOU then there is something wrong with it.
Bottom line, you are the parent. If you think grandma is inappropriate; or even if you just don't like her, she doesn't get access to the kids. That's how it works. She doesn't have to like it.
bunny
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Hi Bunny,
Thank you for your responses. A couple of thoughts...
This sounds like typical permissive grandparent behavior.
Yes it does (from what I've heard). Still it angers me. It really gets to me when she tells me how to parent because she didn't bother to parent me that much when I needed it. I feel like she has no business giving me any advice at all. Right now I am avoiding grandma for this and various other reasons. :)
I think it's natural that she wants to sit next to her.
Yep, you are right. I think the reason I wrote it with a sarcastic tone is because whenever she states that she wants to sit by her, I remember something that happened when my oldest was a baby. Mom was sitting next to my 6 month old baby and she had unbuckled the baby's car seat without knowing it (the 2 buckles were right next to each other). I found out when I stopped quickly and the car seat lurched forward. I don't know if you can imagine how I felt as a new mom with my precious child in danger. Anyways, it just scares me.
I think it's all right when a grandparent or relative is childlike and playful with the kids. I do things with my nieces and nephews that are immature and sometimes subversive. But not to the point where I'm fomenting serious rebellion. I'm still supposed to be a role model.
I also agree with your first statement about being playful and childlike. My H's sis is the best at this. She is both of my girls' favorite aunt. She comes up with the best games, yet she doesn't let them get out of control. She sets limits. My mom does not.
I don't know if I adequately explained what happened that day at the restaurant. My daughter became a wild child and my husband and I were trying to eat dinner, feed the baby and deal with our wild 3 year old and my mother did not support that effort. The child needed to be removed from the restaurant because she was disturbing others and my mother was glad to take her for a walk around the hotel. I wasn't ecstatic with that because mom is so darn easily distracted and sometimes I actually wonder if she would let something happen to my baby just to hurt me. Again, no solid proof, just...a fear.
As long as I am at it I might as well finish the rest of the story...While they were gone, I took our 1 year old to the room for a diaper change and to nurse her and my husband stayed to pay the bill. He came back about 1/2 hour later with our 3 year old in tow and no mom. He told me that he requested that our daughter come back to the room and mom wanted to hang out with her longer and then take her back to the room. He said "no, I'll take her back now" and my mom went home in a huff. My husband has been described by many people as being a very mild mannered person. He is one of the most gentle men I have ever met and he is very respectful of others. I believe Mom just couldn't handle not getting her way.
Bunny, I am wondering about your use of the term "subversive". That implies to me that you are undermining the parent's authority to the children. I am struggling with that...is that what you meant?
I am understanding about relatives being more lenient with my kids. I am sure that my SIL lets them stay up a little later, or gives them an extra serving of dessert or lets them watch an extra tv show while we are gone. I totally understand that, heck, I do it sometimes. Having said that, I really think that allowing them to draw with a marker on a person is not acceptable. It is allowing her to disrespect another person's body...and a 3 year old has a hard time saying to herself, oh it is ok to draw on grandma but noone else. No she just decides that it is ok to draw on anyone. Makes my job much harder.
Thank you for sharing your reactions to my statements. It is very helpful because I find myself looking a little deeper at what I am saying and what is really driving my words. It helps me learn more about me and get to know you a bit more. :D
Have a great night!
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Hi Seeker!
I love the way you write. You have such a nice way of saying things and you are always so supportive. I have to tell you that at the end of my previous thread I found myself afraid of you. Wierd huh? It's just that you seem so supportive, knowledgable and caring and I just don't know what to do with that. I have this feeling that you will find out that I am really a big jerk and then you won't want anything to do with me. So I pull away. This is a pattern in my life I think.
OK I am really tired and now I am just spilling out thoughts. :shock: I hope you don't mind.
One last thing. Just because the Ns in your life haven't committed any crime recently doesn't mean the pattern of behavior has changed. It just means that they haven't had the opportunity. We can forgive the past, but that doesn't mean we have to give erring people more opportunities in the future to hurt us. Snakes are not good or bad, they are snakes, doing what snakes do. A rabbit finds it wise to keep some distance.
Thank you for that reminder. I am trying to hold on to that. With my dad, I am getting to be pretty solid with that. My mom...confusion and doubt still sets in. I will say that something inside me clicked a couple of months ago when she was trying to make me feel guilty about something. Now, I really can't stand the thought of speaking with her. This is new, because I use to seek out her advice even though I knew it was a bad idea. So I think I am on the right road. I am looking forward to working with a therapist to further help me.
Take care Seeker!
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Learning,
Your mother seems inadequate to care for young children. She can't be unsupervised with them. It's up to you whether or not to even give her access to them. She seems like a bad influence and irresponsible.
Your husband is GREAT for removing his daughter from the irresponsible grandmother. Kudos to him.
I don't tell children to go against their parents but if they question their parents' behavior, I don't necessarily side with the parents. I may take the kid's side. For instance, the little girl told me that her father embarrassed her. I said, "Wow, he shouldn't embarrass you." She also said he broke a promise to her. I said, "He should not do that. Go tell him that it upset you." And she did just that. Maybe this isn't subversive, but hey, I think the film Mary Poppins is subversive. I wouldn't let a child write on me with a magic marker. I let them do other things that their parents would frown on, like jumping on a bed or something.
bunny
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I just read this:
You can not allow anyone abusive to care for your children! I don't care who they are, how they are related and what they will say about it. Abusive people hurt children and there is NO excuse that will ever make it okay. At this terrible point in your family life, I would investigate all my options with every bit of energy I could muster. I'd get the women's shelter to tell me about each and every program that is available for woman in your circumstance and I wouldn't stop looking until I found someone who could help me!!!
You are alone in your recognition of the damage being done to your kids. You are the healthiest person in the group and it falls on your shoulders to find a way to get help. I know this is scary and very hard, but the welfare of your children depends on the actions you take now.
A relative of mine was abusive. During her last visit here she was abusive to our kids a couple times. She has a way of blaming the child and having no tolerance for emotional upsets. As you well know, there are times when kids are weepy or short tempered and it's frustrating but you get through it.
This relative encouraged my son to join her in ridiculing my 5 year old for still having an occasional bottle. They were calling her a "baby" and she was crying. I quickly comforted her and my relative scoffed at me and told me I was encouraging her to remain a baby by coddling her. She told me, "She’s ridiculous!" Well I told her in a calm matter of fact way that a rule in our house is that we don't call names NO MATTER WHAT. She argued against this, of course, so I simply repeated myself. I won't have her teaching my kids to feel ashamed and afraid of who they are because she thinks they should be different from how they are.
I didn't even try to explain that name calling is hurtful and teaches kids nothing constructive. I did explain to my child that when this woman was little people called her names and she never learned that it isn't okay. I wanted to explain it somehow. I guess my point here is that folks who abuse aren't going to change overnight. And, the pain they cause us and our kids is real. Your husband is helping to perpetuate abuse and is abusing both you and the kids by not opening his eyes to what is going on in his home and what he himself says and does. It would be good to start to get resources, information, support.
In this mess someone has to have the welfare of the kids in mind and that someone is YOU!!! There are resources. There must be a way.
from http://www.verbalabuse.com/4c.shtml ( Patricia Evans site )
I'm currently not happy with the way n h is addressing my son & calling it discipline.
The lines I underlined sort-of jumped out at me, I'm getting this too.
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Hiya Write,
I'm currently not happy with the way n h is addressing my son & calling it discipline.
Do you want to talk about the specifics? Want some second opinions? …P
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A relative of mine was abusive. During her last visit here she was abusive to our kids a couple times. She has a way of blaming the child and having no tolerance for emotional upsets. As you well know, there are times when kids are weepy or short tempered and it's frustrating but you get through it.
This relative encouraged my son to join her in ridiculing my 5 year old for still having an occasional bottle. They were calling her a "baby" and she was crying. I quickly comforted her and my relative scoffed at me and told me I was encouraging her to remain a baby by coddling her. She told me, "She’s ridiculous!" Well I told her in a calm matter of fact way that a rule in our house is that we don't call names NO MATTER WHAT. She argued against this, of course, so I simply repeated myself. I won't have her teaching my kids to feel ashamed and afraid of who they are because she thinks they should be different from how they are.
Agreed. I am horrified when an adult tells a child how to feel, how not to feel, calls a child names (including "spoiled"), and rationalizes it by saying it's for the child's own good. I will even take a child aside afterward and say, "Let's run away from ______(name of relative)." I don't care who it is. I don't teach children disrespect, but I will tell them that it's okay to run away from a mean grownup and go to another room.
bunny
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Hey everybody,
It sounds like you are all describing my NSIL to a tee! She did all those things to my kids: namecalling, shaming, denying feelings of the child, blaming, and not supervising adequately. I had the feeling that she would allow young children in her "supervision" to run onto the freeway and then blame it on the child for not listening to her or not asking permission first...She got angry with me for not allowing my kids to sleep over at her house when she invited them over and over and over. She accused another family member of not trusting her and he replied: "That's right! I don't trust you!"
Say Learning, boy, I don't think I've ever inspired fear in anyone before...relax, we all have ugly feelings and we can use this board to get some of it out. Snakes put that venom in our system and we have to get that poison out sometimes. I've been having some pretty nasty thoughts about my dad recently and, of course, loads of guilt about it. It comes with the ACON territory.
The only thing that is out-of-bounds on this board is directly attacking another member for their feelings or thoughts. That's it. Also, there are some really great articles on the difference between healthy anger and destructive anger. I once saw a helpful grid and looked again for it, but now it is lost in cyberland. It helped me to know that my anger is OK to feel and I can learn how to express it better.
Take care everyone, Seeker
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Hi Write,
Boy it has taken me a long time to respond to your posts, sorry about that. Thanks for the link about the Ideal Solution belief. I definetly recognize some of that thinking from my past. I think I have mostly moved away from this thinking now. Although, one thing I have found in my healing is that it isn't like an on/off switch. I find myself regressing at times and that used to bother me. Now I am trying to accept that as well. I am trying to allow my feelings to have their space, to give them a voice and then to take a look at them. I love this board because it helps me do that. I love that it has the added bonus of having others who are detached (and supportive) to give me their feedback.
Write, I have not read everything you have written on this board, but I have seen bits and pieces. I think you must be going through a really hard time with your H and all. I just want to tell you that I am really sorry that you have to experience this. I also want to say that your courage is inspiring. Your effort towards protecting your children is wonderful. I often think what it would have been like to have a mom who worked to change our situation and to protect me and my sisters. I think my inner belief system and self-esteem would be much healthier. Your children will have that. Bless you!!!!!!!!
You can not allow anyone abusive to care for your children!
Well I told her in a calm matter of fact way that a rule in our house is that we don't call names NO MATTER WHAT.
Thank you for that!! I have been really focused on these two ideas since my children were born. Lately, I have been feeling insecure about this because I have been given the message from my N parents that I am too rigid. Actually, both my extended family and my H's extended family love to name call. AArrghh!!! It is like part of the culture. Sometimes I feel so isolated in my quest to have my children treated with respect (of course this may just be my perception). But your post and everyone's responses has refueled me to stand my ground on this. THANK YOU!
Write, like Portia, I am also interested in hearing what is happening with your H and your son if you feel like sharing it.
Best Wishes!
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Dawning,
I don't know how I missed your post. I just saw it! I'm sorry about that.
With self-awareness comes this: feelings do not lie. Trust your feelings. Has anyone else had a rough time of it getting in touch with your physical feelings, say, of dread? I think I got used to mine for a long time - having been taught in childhood that they weren't important. Over the past several months, I am letting them come up and recognizing that they are clues to what is really going on with my thinking about something. I base more of my decisions these days on what my body is telling me. I think intuition and feelings are linked in a really important way. A realization for me.
Dawning, I love that about feelings don't lie. I don't think I have quite "owned" it yet. I mentioned to Write that I am trying to give these feelings space to play out anyways. It is a concious effort. I have also realized that I have a hard time staying connected to any strong physical feelings. Strong feelings of dread, anger or joy make me feel very uncomfortable and I want to move away from them. The other thing I find interesting is that the time I feel most dread is when I am in that stage of half-asleep, just waking up. I mean not all the time, but sometimes I can feel so disorientated and just filled with dread. Does that ever happen to you?
Take Care!
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Michelle,
I laughed so hard when I read your stories about your mom!!! :lol: I could totally see my mom saying those things. She is always diagnosing everyone based on her "expert" knowledge. And I could totally relate to the matter of fact way your mom says things. It is as if you cannot argue. It just is the way she says it is. And why do they always think we will be "happy" when they are suffering?
However, I also feel that some of the things he gives me actually "increases" my capacity to handle things for the future.
He is my only consistent source of stability and strength. In a weird way, my religious beliefs have actually been part of what has kept me "chained" to my family. My counselor is a christian counselor and she has shown me the error of my beliefs in those ways. It has been eye-opening.
Michelle, I also believe that the tests that God gives us are given to develop us spiritually. I believe that because it makes sense to me and because the great prophets of the world teach it. And there are times when I really own it within me and I can gather strength from it to do really positive things in my life. Then there are other times, like now, when my anger overwhelms me (and I guess I feel a little sorry for myself) and I have a hard time connecting to this belief. That is when it is important to hear people like you reflecting the same belief. I feel the burden lifting slightly as I write this. Thanks!
I am glad that your counselor has offered you a different way at looking at religious teachings to apply to the abuse you have suffered. I have also had people along the way redirect my thinking about spirituality and my understanding of how God expects me to interact with others. The biggest thing for me has been learning that it is correct to walk away from people who are habitually abusive.
Thank you for your great support and sharing! Your positive attitude is infectuous!
Take Care![/quote]
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Hey Michelle,
It's me again. I logged off after writing you the last message and then I felt like maybe I shouldn't have made the comment about your positive attitude. I am worried that you might think I am putting you into a role. I just want you to know that, yes, when you feel like being positive it brings light and that yes, whatever you are feeling is valuable and welcomed.
I probably didn't need to say that, but I just wanted you to know what I am really thinking. :)
Thanks for your patience!
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Hello everybody,
Portia, thanks! That's the link! It really helps me clarify "OK" anger with the destructive stuff that Ns dish out. One of my Ns calls this being "candid". right. Also, there's a fine line between affectionate teasing and hurtful namecalling. I think it depends on intent, tone and the receiver. My NSIL called my child a sore loser and was practically yelling it at her, when it was NSIL who was losing and being sore. Typical.
And Learning, thank you for the kind words, esp. about my writing. (Sorry I didn't mention that before!) My dream is to become a writer, but I'm still figuring out my niche. I like your name because I prefer to keep learning vs. posing as a I Already Know Everything type. So much more fun...
Take care, Seeker
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It's me again. I logged off after writing you the last message and then I felt like maybe I shouldn't have made the comment about your positive attitude. I am worried that you might think I am putting you into a role. I just want you to know that, yes, when you feel like being positive it brings light and that yes, whatever you are feeling is valuable and welcomed. I probably didn't need to say that, but I just wanted you to know what I am really thinking
Learning - You are right. You didn't need to clarify that at all. I appreciate your compliment very much.....many people read my personality as fake or put on but it is not. I am sincerely down to the core a positive person. I enjoy being that way. I do admit that I have a hard time letting my anger out in healthy ways but I am working on that. I feel very proud to have written the letter to my mother on here. It really opened a new range of emotions for me.
Don't ever worry about anything you say to me. You have been very supportive and your intentions are true. Thank you for that.
Michelle :wink:
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Hi Bunny,
"Wow, he shouldn't embarrass you." She also said he broke a promise to her. I said, "He should not do that. Go tell him that it upset you." And she did just that. Maybe this isn't subversive, but hey, I think the film Mary Poppins is subversive.
I would do the same thing. I guess it is subversive but it is also practising justice. That's interesting...something to think more about at another time. I don't remember Mary Poppins too well, but now I think I might have to rent it. :)
I will even take a child aside afterward and say, "Let's run away from ______(name of relative)."
I really like that. I think I might use that when in a similar situation. It's helpful to the child to have an adult on their side. I don't know if you say it in front of the adult who said it or not, but if you did it also sends a message to them.
Take Care, Bunny!
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Hi Portia!
No, mom did not ask a bit about me in her email. She rarely does. Usually, only if she hears a reluctance in my voice to speak to her when she phones.
Yep, all of that. Felt guilty writing (washing dirty linen in public), felt like I was betraying her (the old tape playing), too much thinking about this can make me light-headed (am I going crazy?), is she really an N (who cares? I was abused, that’s for sure and this is about me, not her)….and yes, once I started on this road, there’s no way I could stop, turn off my thoughts and be ‘ignorant’. It’s like turning to the light after years of hiding in the shadows.
I can relate to all of those feelings. The light-headedness is something that I am feeling quite a bit lately. I keep telling my H that I feel like I am suspended in time. I guess you are right, it seems to come from thinking about all this so much. I am a bit afraid to stop thinking about it because I don't want to forget what I have been trying to accept. I am trying to hold on to what I am feeling so that when I can get to a therapist, I can share it with them.
And now I’m reaching the point where I really want to get on with my life and do it my way. Wow! Writing that was quite an achievement in itself!
Portia, that is wonderful! I can't claim to know everything you have been through, but I know you deserve to live life on your terms. I hope you will share your experience with us!
No, I originally wanted Cordelia from ‘King Lear’ but it was taken. So Portia from ‘The Merchant of Venice’ because I admire her standing up for justice. My name’s Stephanie but I’ll always be Portia here and funnily enough, she’s my alter-ego too, nudging me to remember my new ‘truth’ when I slip into old ways of thinking. I hope ‘Learning’ does that for you too!
I haven't read 'The Merchant of Venice', but I think I would like to now. I have also been trying very hard to stand up for justice in the last several years and I am so happy to hear your voice saying that is your goal too. I don't think "Learning" is as poetic as Portia, but when I joined here that was the only name I could think of that adequately described my state of mind. I guess I am still trying to find my new 'truth'. I have had some new truths written onto my heart that I really am satisfied with in the past decade, but I feel that there are several more chapters for me to explore. And actually I am really excited about that.
Portia, I am very please to meet you!
Take Care,
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Hi Seeker,
I hope I didn't make you feel uncomfortable when writing about my perception of you. That wasn't my intention. I was trying to take a look at why I shy away from people who act caringly towards me. This is probably something I need to talk to a therapist about.
And Learning, thank you for the kind words, esp. about my writing. (Sorry I didn't mention that before!) My dream is to become a writer, but I'm still figuring out my niche. I like your name because I prefer to keep learning vs. posing as a I Already Know Everything type. So much more fun...
I hope that you find what you want to do with your writing. I think you will do great.
I think the name 'Seeker' is alot like 'Learning'. I hope that I am both a seeker and a learner. They seem to go hand in hand. Of course, each of us has our own variety of things we have already learned and it is good to share that with everyone. Perhaps finding the balance between learning and teaching is the state I am striving for. Ahhh, but I digress :roll: . I do thank you for sharing what you have learned with me. You have been very helpful. :)
Take Care Seeker!
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Hello Learning (& all),
Sorry I didn't reply before now. It's been really busy and I haven't had a chance to catch up with a lot of the discussions going on. No, no! you didn't put me off. It was kind of interesting to note both your response and mine. I think it's a good thing that we are looking closely at how we respond and thinking about it. That's how I took it...
Lately I feel like I have been peeling back the layers of "stuff" that have been piled on over the years, trying to figure out if the stuff is my skin (me) or a wart that needs to be removed! If it leaves a scar, that's okay. My latest analogy is that "distressed" furniture is more interesting than brand new...
I tend to shy away also, from just about everyone. Sometimes I marvel that my husband fell in love with me. :oops: I just read an article about "shame-based" people thinking they deserve or expect rejection, not because they did anything wrong but because it would be a mistake to love what is not lovable. In other words, we may think we are unlovable because we haven't been loved before. So when someone starts loving us, we think "boy, are you making a mistake!" So I gotta start loving myself before I can accept it from someone else. It is pretty foreign to me at times when I am actively working on it.
I guess I had to write that because I just recently saw my N in a full state of Nness and vulnerability and I thought about how it must have been with him acting that way when I was a child. Kind of a less charming version of the movie "Big" with a little boy living in a grownups body, but having family responsibilities he couldn't handle, but pretended to. It gave me a big headache although I give myself big brownie points for surviving it somehow. Well, gotta go.
Peace to you all, Seeker
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Hi Seeker,
It's good to hear your voice.
[quotehad a good weekend.]No, no! you didn't put me off. It was kind of interesting to note both your response and mine. I think it's a good thing that we are looking closely at how we respond and thinking about it.[/quote]
I'm relieved to hear you say that!
Lately I feel like I have been peeling back the layers of "stuff" that have been piled on over the years, trying to figure out if the stuff is my skin (me) or a wart that needs to be removed! If it leaves a scar, that's okay.
Wow...yes, is it a wart or the real you...that is a great way to say it, Seeker. I also like that you put into words that removing the warts may leave a scar and that THATS OK!!! That is really liberating. So often I feel such fear about discovering my "warts" and about what to do about them. I guess that comes from me defining these "warts" as bad and therefore I feel ashamed of them. I am trying to redefine my thinking to something more like, "my warts are not good or bad, they just are...and they are there for a reason, but that reason no longer exists so now I should dispose of them." I'm working on that one.
I also like your furniture analogy. It's true! :)
In other words, we may think we are unlovable because we haven't been loved before. So when someone starts loving us, we think "boy, are you making a mistake!" So I gotta start loving myself before I can accept it from someone else. It is pretty foreign to me at times when I am actively working on it.
Yes, yes, they must be making a mistake. I must be fooling them. And I become so ever more voiceless...trying to be the person I think they want me to be. And then, they don't respond the same way to me anymore and I assume it is because they have realized their mistake. And alas I feel I was right, I am unlovable. Now I am beginning to realize that I haven't been "myself" with anyone but my H and kids. And even then I lose my "voice" at times. It is all so exhausting... and my goal is to find my voice and keep it at all times 8) .
I am glad you found your husband and I am proud of him for recognizing how lovable you are. :) I bet he also marvels at his good fortune in finding you. I don't really know if I am shy or not. If you met me you would probably say that I am not, but I think that I am "outgoing" in superficial ways. Maybe it is an act, to get my father's approval. He used to tell me that I didn't know how to talk to people. I don't think I share myself with others very well. But I don't really know...this is one of the things I want to understand better about myself.
I am also trying to learn how to love myself better. One of my biggest motivators about this is my daughters. I see the 4 year old modeling me so much and I don't want her to grow up and feel about herself the way I feel about myself. It is a big worry of mine. Seeker, have you had any experience with this?
Seeker, I'm sorry to hear about your N and your childhood. It can seem so unfair that you were not taken care of the way you deserved to be. I like that you said that you survived it somehow. You did and you are a stronger, wiser person for it. And you are using this to help others here at this forum (and mayble elsewhere :?: ) ...perhaps this is the reason for it all...
And you are still dealing with your N. Do you want to talk about details about the latest episode? I'd love to be a sounding board for you(and I'm sure other people here would too).
Bless You,