Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ami on October 20, 2007, 09:24:42 PM
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I have realized that I always had a" depression" oppressing me. Once I realized that my M was a 3 yr.old, a big part of it left.
Now I am facing the deep anger I have at my M and I think that the rest of the depression is actually anger at her.( all of it probably was)
I can see how since I became the 'top dog", she is running from me. That makes me more angry that all this time I was trying to be "nice" and forgiving",she was really just "bullying " me. NOW, she is afraid of me and running. On the website about N mothers ,it says that only ONE can be the "top dog".( in the N mother's mind)
This gets me so angry.ALL this time I let her bully me b/c I wanted love and connectedness.. Now, she is running. It reminds me of the cartoons where one is chasing another. Then they make a fast U -Turn and it is reversed..UUGHH Ami
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I read once that depression is anger turned inward. I am not convinced that this explanation covers all depression but I thought of it when I read your title.
Does her running make you angry? Or does it give you space to heal? Sounds like it is just another reminder/reinforcer that she isn't capable of the love and connectedness you needed so badly.
Poppy
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"Anger turned inward becomes depression"--a quote from somewhere, so I heard.
but are you angry/depressed that the roles have changed and you are uncomfortable as yet, with this change?
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Part of what gets me angry was how "easy" it was to back her down and turn the tables and have HER be the coward.
It was so easy and ALL this time I was the abused one when I could have just turned it around and been the strong dog.
I could hear her quaking when she heard it was me on the phone. All my life since 14,I have sucked up to her, twisted myself for her, given my heart ,soul and body to her and all she wanted to do was BULLY me.
Now that I have gotten strong, she is quaking.. It was so easy.
I don't really understand all of it. My depression is leaving.It was a carrying of her -- somehow and someway.
The huge big bully was so easy to back down.
It is really big but I don't really get it.
I guess that if a man abused you all your life and you finally stood up and he ran scared. You would feel such a strong assortment of feelings like"Why did it take me so long?"How dumb could I be to have put up with it for so long? and shock at how easy it really was to be strong and stand up for yourself to s/one who you thought was invincible.
I still don't really know what I am trying to say.It is confusing,but the more I write the more my depression is leaving.
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My Former cop b/f used to say that in order to heal an emotion, you had to get a "gap". A gap was a place where you could "see" how your thinking worked without being actively involved in it. It was a moment of detachment.
I am seeing how my M programmed my core to be one of shame. Then I was always running from the shame in to people pleasing, shopping, looking for approval, over eating, (anything to push away this shame b/c it hurt so badly and it felt like it would kill me)
I was running and running. That type of running can make us sick-- emotionally and physically.
I am at the level of facing this shame core.I have never done anything like this before. I am just going forward .(Send a rope down if I don't come back--UGGGG)
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Ami,
I do agree that depression is anger turned inward.
So, this is a great step forward. Congrats!!!
How did it happen? I guess you saw that the King (Queen) had no clothes and so you are no longer afraid of her, so you feel empowered. Perhaps we tend towards depression when we feel powerless and we tend towards anger when we feel more powerful. Just a guess.
Do you feel more powerful?
It was so easy and ALL this time I was the abused one when I could have just turned it around and been the strong dog.
As the saying goes: "when the student is ready, the teacher will come". Ami, you just weren't ready to turn it around until now. You needed to build up to the point where you could turn it around and that point has come. Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Love,
sally
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Thanks Sally
I was so used to this same depression that I did not even notice that I had it. I used to buy things all the time to make it go away.I thought that if I looked good and got approval that I would BE "good"
I stopped buying things b/c I realized that my being "good" has a new definition.I want to be whole-- not search for compliments ..
I want my insides to be whole.
So, as I started doing the inner child exercises,I started feeling real feelings. I started wanting to trust myself and feel what I was feeling rather than "medicate" it.
I am in the middle of this process. It is like being in a new "land' --like Mongolia. It is so different but I know that I will come out the other side ---one of these fine days Love Ami
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My Former cop b/f used to say that in order to heal an emotion, you had to get a "gap". A gap was a place where you could "see" how your thinking worked without being actively involved in it. It was a moment of detachment.
Man, this idea has really helped me. I have found myself SOOO emotional lately. GACK! If I can just step out and get objective I see a whole lot better.
And I can get my thinking under control faster. This last two weeks I have been much calmer.
The shame is so deep, isn't it? For me, it goes deeper than any other part of my struggle. It hides and does sniper moves on all my happy stuff. Like how you say "shame core". It is definitely at the core. I think the shame drives my "running" too. The running with my head cut off. I absolutely stop myself in my tracks when I start the running. I don't always know what to do next but it opens me to the objective observing thing or "gap" and then I can implement the practicing of tools. Sometimes I feel like my core is so damaged with shame that I need to throw the whole thing out and start over. Act like an innocent.....maybe....and rewrite.
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You know one lady came to my house b/c she had a company that I needed a service from. She was very late for the appointment.It might have been even on the wrong day.
However, what shocked me was that she did not berate herself at all. She just said,"I'm sorry" and that was it. This woman was not operating form a shame core(not in this instance anyway)
I think that the root of our problems is this shame core. It feels so hard to even see it and touch it.It is like "fire" in that it burns and hurts and you just want to run away and medicate it. Even "crisis "medicates it b/c it takes you away from these feelings of deep worthlessness( the shame core).
I really feel like Marco Polo. I am going in to uncharted waters and just going by the light of the Scripture about facing the truth( about myself , life and God) and I have a promise to be free.
I am convinced that the first step to getting whole is simply taking out the trash. Already,I have felt God's presence more b/c I have more room for it.
My cop b/f gave me a book. In the beginning he wrote a quote about what good is the outward life if you ignore the inward journey.( Can't I just buy something and be done with it?)
Love Ami
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I really feel like Marco Polo. I am going in to uncharted waters
Ami,
you are a foreigner in a foreign land so that one day, you can come home and find yourself there.
Can't I just buy something and be done with it?)
Yeah me too!
love,
sally
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Ami,
For me, the biggest 'Aha!' moment was about a year ago when I realised my mother was an N - and the strongest emotion I felt was anger at all the wasted years. It flattened me completely. I was in tears for weeks.
It does seem so easy, ONCE YOU REALISE. But it's the coming to the realisation that HAS to take the time. Your subconscious wouldn't have let you 'know' until you were ready to deal with it.
So, you must be ready, now. This is just the next stage. But it's a big one!!
Janet
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Thank you everyone for responding.
Thank you Sally for understanding what a big step it is to move from depression to anger and for your love and support.
Thanks Poppy for being so willing to express your self from your deep, scary places.
Thanks you Janet- for having walked through many steps and providing a light and a hope that I can get there,too. One thing with you, Janet is that I CANT say that you don't understand which I always think with 'other'(not board) people.If outside people tell me some version of "get over it",I always thing,"Riiiight, you have no idea about My M.
Today.a huge part of my 'normal" depression is gone--not all of it. However, this shows me that I have to still keep doing the inner child exercises b/c they work for me and I trust this modality(more than therapy,for example)
(((((((((((((Sally,Poppy, Janet))))))))))))))))))) Love Ami
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I don't know that depression is solely anger turned inward. Some of it is. Some of it is anger turned inward because we've never been allowed to express anger at the people who deserve it.
There's a lot of things caught up in depression, or at least there is for me. There's a lot of guilt, misplaced guilt. There's a lot of sadness, a lot of silent rage. I have been very scared of my emotions for a long time, and now that I'm allowed to feel those emotions, I'm still scared of them. I think fear is part of it too.
Ami, I'm so glad you are able to see what the root of the depression is. I think that a major part of healing, and of overcoming it. And your comment about buying things to make it go away resonates with me, because I did/do the same thing. I don't feel guilty when I buy something to make my house nice, but I do feel guilty for making an impulse purchase simply because I deserve a treat. My nmom used to do that. She'd not speak to me for two weeks, then she'd buy me something and be all nice and sweet, like that was supposed to make up for the hurt.
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I think it was on one of the recent anger threads that talked about the anger that comes from powerlessness. Sometimes I feel like my depression comes from powerlessness as well. Feeling like the pain was so overwhelming and the shame so acid like. Not being able to make progress or to make effective change. I feel my depression release the more healthy power I can embrace and the letting go of the stuff I can't and shouldn't seek to control. I am finding that a great balm to the anger and depression.
Ami,
I was just thinking about your description of the firey and searing nature of the shame. I don't know what it was that shifted in me, but I am not afraid to look at my shame anymore. I feel like I don't have any real reaction to it other than to recognize it....feel the bite....and combat it the best way I can today. Now that I know exactly how to identify the shame voice and feeling.....I can call it out of the shadows and label it a lie! That seems to be giving me more power over it. I am not sure I am as good at doing that when I am with triggering people or intimidating circumstances. That is why I am avoiding them for now.
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I am really glad that this topic resonated with so many people.
I have had many breakthroughs even since last night.I have also had some "sad" things.
One of the 'sad' things is that my M won't even talk to me on the phone. I told the 'truth" when I got strong. She could not twist me at all. I just stick to the truth like a defense lawyer.
She gave up and wants nothing to do with me. Once she could not twist me to her reality ,she totally rejected me. I think that I always "knew" that this would happen( my whole life).
I think that ,down deep, I always knew that the "penalty for seeing and saying the 'truth" was total banishment. It is so sad. I think that I knew that I "had" to take her reality b/c what might she have done to me as a kid? Now, she is soooo angry that I "told the truth",but she really can't "hurt" me.
I am so,so,so sad. It is so painful to have a M who makes you chose between "mental illness( a skewed reality) or a relationship with a M.I guess that I have to grieve the "sadness" of it.I guess that I chose to be 'crazy" b/c I did not want to be "alone'. Being warped was the price for a relationship with her.I was trying to tell her to see Dr G b/c she lives in Boston. However, whenever she goes to a shrink( 30 yrs). My M TELLS the shrink what is wrong with her. The therapy is what my M wants it to me. So, My M wants to go to therapy to work out her relationship with me( my F told me). However,it will be more of the same.I am unforgiving. My M "used" to be "bad" ,but now she is good. and I am unforgiving.
I never felt so sad about the whole thing.It feels so final. It feels like I was on a journey and I got to the "end of the road. The map "ended".Now, I am sitting by the side of the road and the map ended. The map is my whole journey with my M. It is deeply, deeply sad.
Now, I need to get a whole new map for my life-- not based on her(her needs, her ideas, her crazy way of looking at me and herself)
The good thing is that I got a real sense of how much of our core of shame is just LIES. I look at life. So much of what we are taught about life( by society ,our families etc) is a lie.
I can 'see' my core of "shame". I see that I got mine mainly from my M. However,people who had good M's still have a core of shame( most people). My kids don't have the M issues. However, they had the F issues. They still struggle with feeling unworthy.
. I saw myself as the 'worst". I just had my core of shame made in my particular way.Other people can get their's from other things-- racism. poverty, bad F, bad siblings , etc etc I see it as simply lies that I believed ( and still do).
I don't see it as so "hopeless' b/c I can face the lies using the inner child exercises. I already have face many of them ..
I still have a depression,but it is not as heavy.
I know that I have made some steps toward wholeness. I am happy in a way and sad in a way--but not as hopeless, for sure. Thanks to everyone who wrote about this topic.It is so much easier to heal when you can do it with others Love Ami
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Having suffered from clinical depression all my life, you'd think I'd have more answers by now. I am currently on meds and have tried nearly two dozen different meds and therapies. I've been in therapy and hospitalized for major depression. And still, the question I ask various doctors repeatedly is "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" Is the depression the result of environmental issues (raised in an N family) followed by a number of negative life experiences? Or, did the negative life experiences come first followed by a major depression? The answer is invariably is "We don't know. It's likely a combination of both biological and situational factors."
After having studied depression and NPD extensively now, I do believe that the N situation either caused or greatly contributed to my lifelong depression. Some have told me my depression can be directly tied to my family situation. My recent doctor has suggested a I consider a surgical procedure in which a device would be implanted in my body to help regulate my depression and emotions.
And yes, I have also read often how some believe that depression is simply anger turned inward. Personally, I think that is too simplistic an explanation. It would follow then if you came to terms with that anger, identified it and expressed it, then the anger, and thus the depression, would disappear. But that is not the case. At least not with me.
The really terrible thing is while depression (in my case) may be a direct result of being raised in an N household and having an N family, it affects every aspect of my life. And of course, Ns have absolutely, positively no patience or empathy for those who suffer, particularly from an emotional disorder like depression. They view it as a sign of weakness. Ns want nothing to do with weakness. How ironic that the very symptoms of major depression (debilitating fatigue, sadness, lack of interest, lack of motivation) are those that the Ns just can't tolerate. It is one more thing that convinces the N you are a failure, unworthy and unvaluable. Nearly every doctor I have ever been so has says the opposite...i.e., that you have to be a very strong person to struggle through depression.
It has been my experience that no one tolerates very well someone with depression. They don't understand it and certainly don't want to be around it. They have absolutely no empathy for those suffering from it. The result is that the very thing you need as a depressive (support, encouragement, attention, empathy, compassion) are nowhere to be found.
I just can't help thinking how can you not be depressed after living a lifetime with serious Ns? You'd have to be superhuman not to have it affect you.
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Dear Sun,
I think that every child of an N would have depression(IMO)
So sorry that they did not appreciate your inherent value and special qualities.
Anyone would be suffering if they had your situation, Sun. Love Ami
((((((((((((((((((((Sun))))))))))))))))))))))))))0
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I have to say that of all the pain that I have ever gone through with my M, this seems like the worst.I tried so hard to twist and become a "mental case" so she would love me. Now, I want to live with truth and she completely rejects me. It is so painful that I am just asking God to hold me so I can deal with this pain.
No one should have to make the choice between their mental health and a M's love. It hurts so badly. I guess these feelings are what put me in to denial. I just decided to become "crazy" so I could have a M.
My stomach hurts so badly b/c I am facing the truth. She was even crazier that I thought.She completely rejected me when I would not distort the truth, anymore. I can only face it b/c I know that God loves me and this pain will pass.
Also, being in denial eats your whole life up. You sacrifice reality so you won't have to "see" what you are pushing aside.Down deep, you "know" it anyway. That is why you have dreams that tell you the truth.
I know that people ,here, understand. I know that I am not alone. All my dear friends here have suffered this type of abuse and you are thriving.
It is so nice not to be alone Love Ami
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Today, I have less of a depression I see that I was faced with a choice. Either be 'crazy" and have a type of M or be well( good confidence and my own power) and be TOTALLY rejected. That was my choice. It reminds me of "Sophies Choice" in the sense that I had a monumental choice to make.
I could have my own M ,who I needed and wanted ,as a child( and an adult) or I could have my own 'mind"
She is like a Steven King character . In one book, the zombies "suck" out the minds of the towns people.The towns people look "normal" but they are clones for the monster.
Vaknin talks about this. The N's have no regard for how you feel ,in life, they have no regard for the pain that it takes to "throw yourself away". They have no regard that you are like a broken toy trying to function with no abilities b/c your essential core was stripped.
I look at my kids and I WANT then to love themselves.It hurts me when they are insecure.It hurts me when they doubt their worth. My M WANTS me to be a mass of jelly. She wants me to be a "stripped' person.
My mind and core are my most valuable "assets". She wants to strip them to nothing. That is the only WAY that she will have anything to do with me.
WOW--- How much can a body take and still go on? This is freakin" TRUTH ---is it not? Ami
You shall KNOW the truth and the truth will MAKE you free.I am getting there
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I see that I have to face how the world really is,now. I have faced that my N Mother wants me to be crazy--just like the zombies in the Steven King book made the other people in to zombies ,too
The zombies would not stop until they 'infected" other people and made them zombies. How many Blehs ? This must be the core of my denial.How much worse could it get than your own M wants you to be 'mentally ill" . Your own mother wants to pull your mind "off" and leave you denuded so that she can be "bigger " . She wants to make you so insecure and self doubting so she can appear "big". If that is not "truth" what is?
It is a "rape" of your essential core that God gave you.
If there is more denial to face,I don't know what it is? I think that my feelings have not caught t up with my mind in this one, though.I still have to grieve that I was "molested" emotionally and psychologically and when I would not take it any more,I was cast aside. Ami
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Hi Sun,
Are you "divorced" from your N family or still in contact?
Hops
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Ami,
You have been so supportive and educational to me throughout this journey. Your questions have made me look at things that I thought only I had wondered. The one thing I have learned that relationships with N's (no matter what type) is draining, destructive, makes you crazy, and zaps all that you have.
When you start with it so young in your life, how do you ever learn to overcome? It is now so much a part of who you are. I too have tried all my life to be what everyone else wanted or needed, but there never was anyone when I needed it. My T once asked me to describe my personality and I told her I didn't have one. She said "everyone does" and my reply was, "I'm whatever anyone needs or wants me to be". So sad, but true.
Is the depression, anger turned inward due to the fact we don't think we are entitled to be angry at others? I take all the guilt and problems of the world and believe that it's my fault. My T wanted to know why I thought I was that important. Never, ever did I think I was that important, but certainly an interesting way to look at it. Sorry for babbling, just trying to make sense for myself.
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My F gave me the biggest gift this morning. I told him all about what I wrote here.I realized that my M totally rejected me b/c I wanted to be emotionally well .
I really thought that he would try to take away my reality .However, he really is rooting for me to be well. He really came through for me. He said that I had a lot of courage to face the truth like I am doing.I really don't like when he says "courage" but he was trying to give me support and I took it as support.
I was surprised.
I think that the "spell" was broken with my M. I broke the spell that the" evil witch 'cast on me. The spell paralyzed me from feeling, seeing or doing.(like in my dream) Certain things she really 'broke" in me. She used to laugh when i said that I wanted to live with respect and integrity. She would mock and ridicule me.
Now,I feel free to define my own parameters.
I still feel a deep depression,but I will do the inner child exercises and just root out the causes. I think that the causes are some form of lies that she told me about my value.
I feel the depression,but I don't feel so afraid of it or even that I have to run from it.I can go within and see what it is trying to tell me. My feelings have been pushed down for so long.I can't expect to be all "new' right away.
I have to have a new set of rules about myself . Ami
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Dear Alone,
Thanks for writing. . I am so glad that you wrote your post.Thank you so much, Alone.
I think that there is only so much a person can take (pain) before they push away their 'real" self and construct a false self . The false self is constructed b/c we think that the 'real" self was the 'bad' one who got us in to all this "trouble( parent's abuse).
The false self tries and tries to be "good" and make other 's happy. The false self learns to please to get love and avoid hurt.
Then,it is like the Twilight Zone episode where they have kept the 'masks" on for so long that they can't pull them off.
Even when we are out of the home, we still wear the mask.I am finding that as I pull off the mask the pain is bad . However, as I write in my journal,I see that I 'hated 'myself for such stupid things like I couldn't make a raging N happy or I was "too much trouble' , too demanding or needed too much love.
At the core of our self loathing are DUMB ideas that kids figure out. My S(younger) has been feeling a depression.I got him to see the "root" of it which was that my S was a wimp b/c he couldn't stop his F from raging and b/c he did not stand up and help (he was age 7).
These are the 'type" of reasons we have for hating ourselves. The reasons are so 'small" and silly once we look at them. However,if we simply believe them, they ruin our lives with depression , addictions, etc
The unexamined life RUINS us-- big, big time.
I am forcing myself to face all aspects of my life. I am feeling more alive .
It is a journey that we HAVE to take. There is a beautiful painting inside everyone of us. We were forced to "throw it away". Maybe we would have gotten really bad abuse if we did not.
It was too dangerous to be a bubbly,happy ,self centered little kid.
It was NOT our fault that we got depressed and codependent.
At least we know that we have others here who truly,truly understand as we hurt while we are trying to heal.
Thanks so much for being there, Alone. Love Ami
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I really have some hope that I can be well--even 'normal". I see that I just 'took in" GARBAGE--lots and lots of it.
I see now that I made the decision to cast off my perception about everything.If I can get it back and start learning lessons about myself and life as it is,I should be able to be "normal"
Normal to me is to face how I am inside. It is to face myself with all the good and bad ..
It would be to have cleaned up the shame core so I can just relax .
It would be being centered in myself--not the outside. Just some thoughts.I see this as a possibility,now. I never did until I faced that my M was the crazy one-.I took it all on ( the craziness) to try to protect her. When she rejected me for getting better,I could see how it has to be over.. She would really throw me overboard in a second ----in order to protect herself. Only ONE person can "win " ,in her mind. She will destroy me so it can be her..BLEH(what else can you say?) Ami
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Part of what gets me angry was how "easy" it was to back her down and turn the tables and have HER be the coward.
It was so easy and ALL this time I was the abused one when I could have just turned it around and been the strong dog.
Ami, I don't know if this will help or not, but remember that the entire belief system of an N relies upon convincing YOU that their beliefs are true. When they lose their ability to control what you believe they are lost because they have no anchor of their own. YOUR beliefs are their only reality and they can only see themselves in the mirror you provide, so you must reflect their lies. If your mirror is an honest one however, it is totally intolerable and they will reject you completely. So as an adult you've always had far more power than you thought, but having a soul and a conscience has kept you from even acknowledging it, let alone using it (IMO). N's are nothing but smoke and mirrors. Knowing this doesn't help with the rage though, I have to admit. They've used your very love for them against you to manipulate you for their own purposes and that is nearly impossible to forgive. Shame is the most powerful 'weapon' they have I think. Nothing makes you more impotent than shame. Grrrrrrrrrrrr. Anger (and depression) are big issues for me too!
Bill
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Dear Bill,
I think that you saw the "forest" when I was lost in the trees.
Thank you,Bill. Your post was a big piece in the puzzle ,which is just beginning to make sense.In that "sense "is my freedom. Thank you ,friend Love Ami
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This is the first time since I was 14,that I have a little hope that I can really get 'myself' back.I 'flashback" to times when I felt whole and strong. I am still that same person., underneath.
I have certain memories that have emotions with them of feeling that I had value. I see myself walking downstairs to a party.I can see what I am wearing.Most importantly, I felt like there was s/one inside me that I would not sell out-- that I would honor and respect.
I had so much fun there b/c I had myself with me. This was one of the last times that I felt whole. I lost all my friends to friends to drugs shortly after that.I tried to connect with my M. Previously,I was connected to a group of friends.
Once I tried to connect with her,it was a fast track to Hell.Now,I can see hope of finding that person who I had to throw away that long time ago. Ami
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Ami, you so often hit the core emotional buttons that are so relevant to my experience. You are far from being 'lost in the trees," but I know what you're saying. For myself, I can be TOO 'big picture' so that I don't have to get too close to emotional "cores. Maybe that's an honest difference between men and women, I don't know. Right now I'm reading "Trapped in the Mirror" by Elan Golomb, a book someone on this board recommended and it's very good and very relevant to me. From this book, I know now that my father was an N, without a doubt, and that's why I've had such an N target on my back my whole life. It seems pretty obvious now.
But what I was going to say (from reading the book) is that the (self) you 'threw away" so long ago was the one that threatened your mother so badly that she had to try to squash it. And from your threads about 'aloneness" I think her weapon was the threat of abandonment. Shame is a very powerful weapon, but I think the threat of being abandoned must be twice as powerful. So you abandoned the self that threatened your mother, in the same way that I abandoned the self that threatened my father. We did it to ourselves, in the name of love and to be loved. And to this day, every time that real self pokes it's head out, so does that horrible threat of total aloneness (being unlovable) come into being, and you squash that self, just like you always did as a child. In my mind, this is what your 'aloneness' thread(s) were talking about.
Bill
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Dear Bill,
Your posts have really helped me get over two big "bumps". Your first post(above) showed me that my M was a "canned laughter"type of person. She could not "make(originate) a joke,but she could laugh back at it.
I "saw" with my heart that she could only be the mirror(as you said),not the original "core" with her own "real" ideas. This is so sad that there are no words to express it. When you see it,it is like the same shock you feel when you hear that s/one is in an accident or dies. A sick ,thud type of feeling hits your stomach and head.
As long as I was having "enmeshment" types of "fights' with her, she could do her 'trained monkey" part. However, when I got better. she became like jelly b/c she had no "script" to bounce off from. She is really the "zombie" that Vaknin talks about--- the living dead..
The second point that you made about aloneness is very,insightful.I never would have looked at it like that. I can see from my Yorkie puppy that this breed just "craves" a lap to sit on. She craves being close to me. It shows me that I was not "abnormal" to want love and connection.It is built in to us.
Lately,I am making peace with "aloneness".I will walk and say,"I am alone.".It will feel more peaceful than it used to.Even if you have good parents and a spouse,you still have to make your peace with aloneness b/c it is part of the human condition---right?
i don't remember her threatening me with "aloneness' but it probably was subtle. I think that I could not "think" or say anything that differed with her reality or "severe consequences" would follow..I was not hit ,but she would "become" a monster right before my eyes like the Incredible Hulk-bleh.
I felt like I would be disowned if I ever "told the truth" about "reality. After a while,I had lied so much that i was very,very lost.I only found my way back from the board.
Bill,it must be a "shock" to realize that your F is an N. You did not realize this before. I remember you saying that you thought that HIS father was an N.
Has it been a shock for you? It was very much so for me. Coming out of denial is very painful. We went in to denial b/c it was too painful to see what was happening. We have to face the same painful feelings as we come out of denial(IME)
It seems like you are starting on a whole "new" journey ,on the board, now that you realize that you are a child of an N.
Thank God that we all have each other. We know that when we come here ,we don't have to "sugar coat" the truth. It is a horrible truth,but facing it is the best way to dispel it. Thank you so much for your tremendous insights. They helped me get to the next level. Love to You Ami
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Ami, it's funny, but it really wasn't a shock realizing my F was an N. Mainly, the realization just makes things make more sense. It's not quite true that N's never change or can't change. My F was a much different, nicer, more complete person in his later years. He was a lousy F (a major N as I know now) during my formation however, and I always knew that and had few illusions about it. And he realized it too at some point and actually tried to atone for it as he got older. VERY un-N-ish to admit this level of failure and imperfection! This is how he really (no longer) fit the N-mold. His own F was truly a monster by all accounts so he had some insight into these things I guess and he realized that he had victimized me the same way his own F had victimized him. It's hard to be all that angry with him (he's dead now) because he acknowledged his mistakes as much as he could. But he did set me up for a whole lot of misery that didn't have to be. He not only 'trained' me so I was vulnerable to every N that came down the pike, he taught me how to completely disenfranchise myself for most of my life. That DOES make me angry!
My 'coming out' about N's recently WAS a shock though and THE wake-up call of my life. To realize that people can actually be, ARE like this! The lying, manipulation and total selfishness disguised as love and friendship. I was so naive for so long. That's been very tough, losing my 'innocence." I just don't know why it took so long, but it did. Now I'm just trying to move on and become the self I have always put down and squelched. Most of my fears are still about being rejected and alone simply for being ME. I've got to get to work Ami. As always, thank you for being here!
Bill
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Ami,
I've thought alot about this topic and one thing I have realized, is that we pass on what we know. My F & M also came from very unemotional families that didn't share their love openly. I have wondered, how do you pass on something you never knew yourself? Are we not the ones who slip through this crack and hope to change the cycle? I believe I have shown my children a different type of love than any of my family had known. Just a thought I have been contemplating for awhile.
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Alone 48,
I have asked myself this exact question since I got pregnant with my first baby. How can I pass along a love I have never received or one that was not modeled? This is the only answer I have.....the answer is within me and comes from expressions of the real me. The more I am in tune with myself and my truth and the truth, the more I have to give. I watch it come from me.....feeling foreign from it....not knowing if I can trust it. I look to others who I admire or who seem to be able to give love. I think that the more we love ourselves...the more we fill ourselves to overflowing and it can't help but spill onto our kids. I am still in process....like that isn't obvious......but there are moments where it all comes together and I learn to trust the love I have within me. I figure if I was aware enough to recognize the lack of love, I must have something in me that knows the fullness of it.
My H and I feel like we are chain breakers. We are the ones whose pain pushes us to find a better way....to become lovers of truth. Maybe we do pass what we know. If that is true, then the more truth I find, the more I can pass on.
I can smile and hug my kids. My father couldn't. I can jump for joy when they score a goal and tell them not to quit when they don't score. My F or M couldn't do that. I can listen and read to them. My mother could never do that. I can let them have their opinions and insights and not be threatened by their strength. I can let them have their own lives and thoughts and feelings. I don't have to control and manipulate to get my needs met. I can teach my kids to take care of themselves and show them through my example how to love themselves more and more as I learn those lessons right along with them. I can teach my kids all the truth I am learning in recovery. I may not be the best parent in the world. But I know I can do better than what was given to me.
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i think that the answer to depression is to face the truth about our 'worth". We took on shame at our core. We pushed aside the "real"us. In the 'real"us is tremendous intuition. It would help us know how to handle situationsi
The reason that we don't know how to operate in the world(IMO) is that our core is our "radar system". People with "intact cores" can feel out the appropriate response in various situations.
In our core is humor, fun, and compassion.
I am seeing that my road to becoming an authentic person is to see that I rejeceted this core for "stupid" reasons. I was a threat to an N.
I am seeing that my M must not have been able to "help" it. Who would be an N if they had a choice. Yes, she chose to bully me b/c she could,but her "thinking' was not her "fault"
I feel like I took a step toward health by trying to look at her this way instead of "hating" her.
I saw,today, that any self hatred, self loathing etc is simply "lies". Anything that goes against our "inherent" value is a "lie"
Little by little with all of your help( there is so much combined intelligence and wisdom here ) I think that I can get "well."
Love Ami
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I have to write on this thread again.I never was diagnosed with any condition b/c I don't go to therapists etc. However,I have such a deep depression ..I had just accepted it as 'normal" b/c I had it for so long. Now, I guess that I want to face it.I am ready to.
Inside is the 'real" me ,but the false me has so many false ideas about "who" I am.Along with throwing away my core, I jettiisoned my true emotions ,too. I became more and more numb.
In order to reclaim myself I have so much grief to go through. When i do the inner child exercises,so much grief comes out.I am avoiding doing them b/c they really hurt.However,holding in this pain is worse.
I am going to do it tonight. I just have to face what is there ,anyway.
There is just so much pain invoved when you have to throw yourself away. I think you have to feel it all in order to heal.
I guess that it will come out in "doses' I can handle.
Ami
PS I guess I have to make the decision.'Am I worth pulling myself out of this depression. ? I am going to do it.