Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: reallyME on October 23, 2007, 10:03:11 AM
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I'm sitting here, pondering this.
I think that it's easier to deal with an N that admits and can see their tendencies and traits of the personality disorder problem.
For myself, i have openly admitted to the things in me that I see as bordering on being narcissistic, but from time to time, I have read posts on here in which it sounds like the person complaining about the N, is actually an N themselves, and maybe even projecting the other person as the N.
I think it is easier and feels safer to me to deal with someone who not only SEES the narcissism that is in themself, but also whom you can approach about it and won't become enraged over it.
Again, just speaking for myself and possibly about myself at times.
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I think if a person sees the N traits and realizes they possess them, they are more likely to try to get better, or at least, be more aware of how their actions affect other people.
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Dear Laura,
The degree of N is directly related to how honest they can be with themselves,I think. Self knowledge would be the only way OUT of being an N--if you could say it that way. Love Ami
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Dr Phil says on one of his tapes: "It's the people who need psychology the least who will benefit the most."
I'm the type of person who is always seeking to find out the flaws in myself so i can work on them. My husband is a person who says "but you...you did.......you have to..........you should........if you would _____ then I wouldn't have to _________"
Thankfully he has agreed to marriage counseling with me with my current therapist. We shall see how that goes...
~Laura
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The N who admits to flaws.... is just using a different route to control and manipulate.
They don't really think they need help or have any problems.
They can't.
It doesn't further their agenda... and everything's about the agenda, dont'cha know?
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I agree Lighter. A person who can admit to having flaws and sincerely wish to change for the sake of others is not an N.
X bella
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Elan Golomb says in her book, Trapped in the Mirror, that children of N's have an easy entrance into being N's themselves because they had such good role models and she talks about different degrees of N personalities. Dr. Grossman seems pretty clear in saying (IMO) that Narcissism and Voicelessness are two different(nearly opposite) responses to the same problem in the child/parent relationship in early development. In other words, V's and N's are opposite sides of the same coin (?) Both suffer from a severe lack of self-esteem, which creates enormous problems in functioning in healthy ways. But we ALL have N characteristics, in fact narcissism can be a healthy expression of self-love and there is nothing inherently bad about it in itself. It's when it becomes diseased/malignant/compulsive/whatever you want to call the extreme when it becomes destructive to others.
I go around and around in circles with this. I've always been a little bothered by the 'finger-pointing' and the demonizing of N's but I think it's basically valid because the destructive behavior exists and the damage is very real. People who are mostly N's are FAR more destructive than people who are mostly V's, that seems pretty clear. At the same time, alot of the damage has our complicity, our own dysfunctions at the heart of it and the only real solutions are within ourselves. This is getting a little off-topic, but I've wanted to put forth this idea for some time and this thread triggered it. What *I* would say is that an N making an admission of guilt could be pure manipulation or not. It would depend upon if they changed their behavior or not.
Bill
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Would you be able to trust an N that seemed to have changed? No matter what you get back to "is this manipulation or the real thing"? Yes, it's healthy to have some N characteristics instead of taking care of everyone all the time, but would you classify a health N as an N.....that seems an oxymoron. Again just babbling an thanks for helping me to think out loud.
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Hi everyone,
Dr. Grossman seems pretty clear in saying (IMO) that Narcissism and Voicelessness are two different(nearly opposite) responses to the same problem in the child/parent relationship in early development. In other words, V's and N's are opposite sides of the same coin (?) Both suffer from a severe lack of self-esteem, which creates enormous problems in functioning in healthy ways.
My introduction to narcissism began here. I'll never forget the day I sat shocked to my marrow by Dr. G;s essays. I said, There's my family! From there, I began the 'life examined'. I avoid as much as is possible interacting with N's when I meet them casually. However, there are three narcissists in my life. By in my life, I mean that I care for them. I love them. The cost of being in relationship with a narcissist is excessively expensive emotionally. Of the three, one is my NC sister. One is another relative that I can keep at arms length. The N that I interact with all the time is my mom. Our relationship is (or was) a textbook case of V vs N. The scales fell off my eyes over seven years ago. During that time, my observation and experience interfaces completely with Dr. G's definition of narcissism and voicelessness. I agree with what you said Bill about V and N being two sides of one coin.
tt
Edit in: I think honest introspection is an illusion to a narcissist. IMO, the wise listener will ALWAYS remember that a narcissist ALWAYS trades in illusions.
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Alone, I think once an N, always an N and therefore you can always trust them to be an N and THAT'S what you can count on. But some of them (most of them ??) are capable of seeing their faults and responding to efforts to hold them accountable. My NF mellowed out a huge amount as he got older and less insecure about himself and he became much easier to live with and he could even be loving and considerate every once in awhile. I think some of this might have been the result of therapy my M dragged him to, but I really don't know. He still had an N's view of the world however (my way or no way) and that never changed.
I think once you figure out more of your own stuff you can learn to 'manage' some, maybe all (untested!) N's and call them on their crap and they have to respond. You don't have to let then manipulate you or exploit you once you've taken your own handcuffs off and learned how not to be voiceless. Like Ami was saying about her M, they fold up like lawn chairs once you find the hinge and you wonder why the heck it took you so long to figure it out. But it took your own self-discovery to make it happen and there is/was nothing easy about THAT. I've discovered this with E, the volleyball guy and T, a very N-ex-house mate, neither one of them admittedly extremely important people to me, but people I have known forever and who use to regularly cause me grief. They will always be a royal pain in the b*tt though, no matter what. The cost of being in relationship with a narcissist is excessively expensive emotionally.
Ain't that the truth tt. A relationship with an N is something you would never volunteer for.
Bill
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Dear Bill,
I love,"Fold up like a lawn chair".
At the risk of getting tomatoes thrown at me, I think that I need to develop more N qualities. The hard part is that I need to feel comfortable with them. As I read Iphi' s post ,I could feel the feeling that I had as a child if I had "self esteem". I would feel like a huge sword would fall down from the sky and slice me.
I still feel that ,now. Iphi's post reminded me of that when she was talking about not feeling like she had the right to "be"
I felt like I did not have the right to feel good about myself. I could "be" if I was submissive to my M. I coud not be if I " out shone " her in any way. A BIG way that I could not outshine her was in self love(N).
I remember that much of her abuse was focused on my excitement about feeling good about myself. It could be s/thing simple like my friend and I painting our nails. I ran to show her.She made some nasty comment that made me shrink. I remember her laughing when I was in my teens and my "b/f" and I had a "song". She thought that it was the most 'stupid" thing. I remember her mocking voice .It was the song,'Miracles". She said.'WHAT---- was it a miracle that you found each other?"
I read that D's of cerebral N's can develop their minds,but NOT their emotions.I think that I was allowed to develop my mind(Thank God).but not my self esteem or ability to love and nurture myself. I fell in to the same trap that Iphi was in when she felt like she does not have the right to "be."
I feel like I do not have the right to have proper N. I need to force myself to bring my power back in to my own body.I need to be able to sit with my own "right" to be and right to own the space (in life)that is mine.It is really,really heard to break this conditioning.
I look up to the sky and expect the sword to come down and slice me for the 'nerve" of wanting to inhabit my own space.I feel a depression even writing about it.I feel so "disloyal".I feel so "wrong."
These deep feelings of self annihilation are written in to my very core. Now, I am in the process of erasing them.
You, dear friends on the board, are allowing me to dig deep and find the treasure within. WE were not born to be like this.We were not made to 'annilihate " ourselves. How could we be made as God's creatures and our goal would be to "destroy" ourselves. It is a perversion of how it was supposed to be. it is "out of the order of things".
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(((((((((((((((((Bill, Iphi, Alone),TT))))))))))))))))))))) Love Ami
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It doesn't further their agenda... and everything's about the agenda, dont'cha know?
And to add a cherry on top of lighter's briliant sundae of a post, the agenda is always about controlling you.
teartracks wrote Edit in: I think honest introspection is an illusion to a narcissist. IMO, the wise listener will ALWAYS remember that a narcissist ALWAYS trades in illusions.
That is such a brilliant insight. This topic has so much hard won wisdom in it. Makes me wonder if the N is 'master' or victim of their illusions? I think victim, but the N shuffles the illusions about with lots of flashy prestidigitation.
wiltay - loooved the lawn chair image. I will never forget that. It's a classic.
Whoa Ami, just read your post. Yeah! Well you said it. You have a visceral way of expressing yourself and I'm feeling it. And I can easily imagine the withering mockery because I lived it too. A lot more goo is bubbling up out of the primordial ooze so I'll save it for another topic. :D
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WOW! I came on here to check on the threads I started and I must say I was really blessed to see that this one spurred on some convo. It must really have been a God-thing.
The one thing that is becoming very clear to me, is that N's are always, 24/7, 365 days a year, in SELF-PROTECTIVE mode.
They are not only protecting against when you slip up and get in their faces...they are always "on" this mode, for even ANTICIPATED insults.
That's right...if an N even SUSPECTS that you are insulting them, THEY EXPLODE ALL OVER YOU or to your friends, family, etc.
The Bible says "confess your faults one to another." To an N, this feels like a DEATH SENTENCE. First of all, in their own eyes they HAVE NO FAULTS other than the ones YOU caused in them. Secondly, what GOOD WILL IT DO TO TELL YOU MY ISSUES? This is how they think. One in my life always prided themselves on being able to work out their issues between them and God, yet, this person continually abused others, so how WORKED out were those things really?
Just my thoughts.
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It's funny the insight you gain when you can remove yourself from a situation. My ex N learned well from his M, but I met her later in life when she had mellowed and appeared to be a kind sweet older lady. Hindsight I can see where he just continued the cycle. He had a love hate relationship with his mother and I was the easy target for his anger, rather than upset M.
He often told me he did not want to be the man that destroyed my life, like his mother's ex. Her ex had tried to kill himself and they both thought this was the epitimy of how important she had been to him. Sad.
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However, there are three narcissists in my life. By in my life, I mean that I care for them.
TT, I keep thinking what you said about your Ns. I have been in a quandary for a long time about what to do about the Ns in my life that have given so little and taken so much. I get so angry about it! And I think that the obvious thing to do is to throw them out of my life forever and be done with them forever and all people like them. But that really isn't possible or realistic and it just isn't me. Like you, I think I just have to learn how to live with them like bad weather I can't change and wear rain gear whenever I'm around them so they can't get me wet and make me sick with their crap. Thanks for 'modeling' this for me TT! This is a major big deal for me and you showed me the way.
Bill
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Can a true N admit to character flaws?? Or admit that they were wrong or misunderstood? My limited experience is that they cannot. I think that is something that is a useful element to me. It helps me to let go of the hope. It helps me to stop engaging with them in trusting ways. It helps me know more of what I am dealing with so I can protect myself in more effective ways.
Anytime my N's find that they are in a corner....it is victim mode. The tears ..... the blaming.....the theatrics to gain sympathy from those who buy the act. They don't allow themselves to see flaws. They need the illusion so badly.
I have also been uncomfortable with demonizing N's. It is crazy. I still love my n family very much. It is a one sided thing and will never be satisfying. I am learning to accept that and learn what steps I need to implement so that I remain safe....as NC is not really an option. But, I still love them. And I am really sad for them. I am sad that introspection is SOOO scary. They live life with blinders on. And have no idea how much pain they cause. They miss SOOO MUCH! I am sad that they know so little of what real love is and what it feels like.
All I have to say, is I am grateful for truth. Even the kind that hurts. Because I can't get anywhere good without it. SO, Here is to the truth lovers!! I should start a club -- The Truth Lovers Association"!
Poppy
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i know that deep down ,I STILL have not fully accepted that my M is so lost and hopeless. Way down deep,I still have hope.This is probably really bad for me.
I bet that it is.I think that it prevents me from "fully taking all my baggage(me) and wresting it away from any type of a relationship with my M and putting all my eggs in to my own basket.I bet that I am still sick to the degree that I still have hope. What do you think?
Ami
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Maybe the truth about whether or not they are hopeless is not a question for us to answer. It is the part of this that we can give to God. He is the only one with enough information to truly answer the question. I have a hard time believing that anyone is hopeless. Especially one that is clever enough to create the whip cream world to begin with. They must be very resourceful and creative....not to mention quick on their feet.
I am telling myself that I am operating detached from them. I am not acting as if I have hope. I am not hoping. It is not a judgement of them. It is a choice that works for me. I am looking to myself and more trustworthy individuals for companionship. I am not giving into the temptation to teach them, or control them in any way. But I catch myself looking over my shoulder wishing for something different. Maybe when I can truly accept myself as I am. And truly accept my life as it is and then learn to love it exactly the way it is...I will have conquered the pull my N's have on me. The truth is that my N's can rage all they want.....but it is my thinking and my lack of boundaries and confidence that is really causing me the pain. They really only have control over the things I let them have control over. So, I think there is hope. But the hope lies within myself. Lord, help me to acheive at least that.
Poppy
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In my experience an N can not see his/her flaws. They are a perfect being in their own minds. And for them to "admit" they have done wrong or that they see whats wrong with themselves is just to gain your sympathy. A true N will fly into theatricals so convincing to themselves- they can cry like a baby. Or they will turn every "problem' that they have to somehow being your fault. And then admit thats a problem they have "blaming other people". Puh-leese!!! I divorced one. I wish you strength!!!
K :D
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Oops, I just saw my lawn chair analogy in a TV COMMERCIAL so I can't claim ownership. I thought I tuned out commercials pretty much totally but there it was. Dang! It IS a good analogy, but not mine after all.
Ami, listening to your description of your M when you were growing up made me so disgusted and angry. Your anger towards her is so understandable. I think N's attack and try to sabotage what they envy in you, things they themselves are clearly lacking. The 3 year old saying if *I* can't have it, neither can you! That voice of annihilation (Golomb's introjected parent)in your head is hers of course, the lies and garbage she felt compelled to feed you so you couldn't have something she was incapable of. There really should be an N- test before someone is allowed to be a parent (or a therapist for that matter)!
Bill
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I feel the same way; its kind of confusing.
Do you think it would make any difference to future generations if NPD was recognized as severe mental illness, and society as a whole treated it as such? I'm not sure, but perhaps that should include limiting their power to abuse people within society, such not letting them hold important jobs or parenting, or having certain ground rules they need to fulfill before doing so.
I think most of the anger I hold towards the N's in my life surrounds the fact that they are regarded as `regular people' by society and everyone around them, and so when I've encountered such people, I've held them to standards of regular people. Its such a lonely feeling sometimes, being a victim of N abuse, and noone else sees it or know how or why it happened. or that maybe they are co-abusers themselves.
In any case, its an enormous problem in society, and I do think the anger of victims is entirely justified. NPD sufferers are a menace and anyone unaware of NPD can become a victim of their abuse.
X Bella
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Bella, I think calling NPD a mental illness is unfair to the rest of us, because it implies that their poor behavior towards other people is out of their control and I don't buy it. I think Ns get away with so much bad behavior in our society because our culture supports and even encourages self-serving, grasping, completely self-centered behavior on so many levels and actually rewards people for it. So I think people have a hard time labeling N behavior for what it is and holding people accountable for it. Most N's IME are intelligent people and well able to intellectually grasp the nature of their flaws, if completely unable (or unwilling!) to emotionally integrate these truths into their grossly conceited illusions about themselves. I so much agree with you Bella, I think N's get away with murder.
Bill
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A few times when my xNbf was being most open, he described to me a feeling of great hollow darkness deep within himself. I think he was genuinely horrified by it. But I don't think he was able to change himself.
Hops
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Bella, I think calling NPD a mental illness is unfair to the rest of us, because it implies that their poor behavior towards other people is out of their control and I don't buy it. I think Ns get away with so much bad behavior in our society because our culture supports and even encourages self-serving, grasping, completely self-centered behavior on so many levels and actually rewards people for it. So I think people have a hard time labeling N behavior for what it is and holding people accountable for it. Most N's IME are intelligent people and well able to intellectually grasp the nature of their flaws, if completely unable (or unwilling!) to emotionally integrate these truths into their grossly conceited illusions about themselves. I so much agree with you Bella, I think N's get away with murder.
Bill
Thanks for answering my questions Bill! I really enjoyed hearing your thoughts; I think they have helped me to wade through some of my confusion too.
The part that has been the most confusing to me is what you mentioned: are they just unwilling to change, or incapable? I suspect `unwilling' is closer to the truth, and you're totally right: society rewards and supports their behavior. The sad fact is, it will probably continue to do so. Perhaps NPD is is even a product our unhealthy society?
Remember that book `American Psycho' written in the eighties? It was kind of a parable, which linked societal reward and support systems with psychopathy. The author did a very good job of demonstrating this, i think (if you have not rad it, I recommend it)
X bella
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Bella, I think calling NPD a mental illness is unfair to the rest of us, because it implies that their poor behavior towards other people is out of their control and I don't buy it. I think Ns get away with so much bad behavior in our society because our culture supports and even encourages self-serving, grasping, completely self-centered behavior on so many levels and actually rewards people for it. So I think people have a hard time labeling N behavior for what it is and holding people accountable for it. Most N's IME are intelligent people and well able to intellectually grasp the nature of their flaws, if completely unable (or unwilling!) to emotionally integrate these truths into their grossly conceited illusions about themselves.
Hi Bill,
I haven't experienced or observed anything that would pursuade me to view narcissism a disease. As I see it, narcissist cleverly cultivate victims to perform as their captives. And as you suggest, that is why narcissism is called a disorder rather than a disease of the mind. We talk about that a lot in conjunction with the Stockholm Syndrome. I don't know how or if SS is the same, but there are similarities. The thing I know is that narcissist's are a sadistic, aggressive, insidious invader of innocents and the unwary. I get in the weeds trying to figure out whether the behavior is willful or programmed from their own past abuse. I tend to believe the latter. Regardless, I intend to keep the veil between me and them!
tt
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Let me just pose this question. Tell me what you think?
I see my M as not being able to "help' her overall thinking. However, she choses to bully kids and weaker people(my F before he changed).
So,I see it as some "choice'as to bullying that they know is wrong. However, the overall thinking disorder they can't help. Does that make sense?. It is just a thought that I formulated. Ami
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Thats a good question Ami. I've read that NPD can be cured, but the circumstances have to be where there is no more Narcissistic Supply and the NPD sufferer hits rock bottom. Perhaps its best, then, to look at it like an addiction (to NS)?
Maybe the real problem is that `hitting rock bottom' (which is known to be the time when many substance abusers become willing to change) is highly improbable, since the prevalence of NS is so high. It can take so many forms, and Narcissists tend to adapt to what they can get.
So maybe they are just addicts who haven't hit rock bottom (and are unlikely to)?
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Let me pose this ( for discussion b/c I don't have a definite answer).An N would be different than an alcoholic or drug addict who could have empathy ,kindness, caring etc but use a substance to numb pain. An addiction is not a "character disorder".IOW, an alcoholic does not have "certain" defined personality traits such as lack of empathy etc. They just used a substance to numb pain. The substance could be food, shopping, reading, (any escape)
So, an N would have to be different than an 'addict"---it seems to me . What do you think? Ami
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The thing I think that resembles early N'ism is Reactive Attachment Disorder
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My parents were both mega-Ns. My soon to be xNH is an N+. None of these folks have ever exhibited any hint that they are aware of their Nness, except for a cryptic phone message from my NF a few months before he died saying that he just wanted to say that was thinking that he was "out of bounds" with me. He never elaborated, and continued his same methodof mistreating me until the end.
Love,
Changing
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Dear Laura,
What is reactive attachment disorder? Ami