Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: tayana on October 23, 2007, 07:33:13 PM
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I hijacked Beth's thread by accident, and I decided to move this to its own thread since I don't want to detract from the excellent one about having a realtionship with dad when mom is an N.
One of the problems I have with both of my parents is that I can't be truly honest with them. I can't be honest about my sexuality. I can't be honest about my religious beliefs. I have never been able to be honest about who I really am. I have over the years endured comments like:
"You think you're so much better than us now that you've got an education."
"Are you telling me you don't believe in God?" After my mom had seen a sticker that said "Goddess Bless" written in stylized Celtic script. She thought it said "Godless Bless." My roommate had gotten it for me.
"You act like you don't even know us anymore."
"You mean you drove all the way down here and didn't visit or call."
"You can get off your high horse because you need my help."
These aren't the sort of statements that inspire honesty, or even a desire for honesty. In fact all these sorts of statements did was make me hide who I was even more. My mother would always say,
"I know exactly who you are." And I would sit there and think, "No, you don't know me at all." She always assumed she knew how I felt about her, about my parents decisions.
I remember that when I complained about moving for the ten thousandth time she told me I never liked any of the houses we lived in. It wasn't quite true, but everytime we landed someplace I liked, we moved. She would always tell me how much I hated her, which wasn't true at all. I didn't hate her. I just resented her.
The first thing I hid from her was my spirituality. I was raised Baptist, but sometime around the age of 14 or 15, I started questioning things and trying out different belief systems. For a little while I settled on Wicca, and I had to hide that from her because books about witchcraft were Satanism in her eyes. It was more of that 'Fantasy world" I lived in. So I snuck books into the house, and when I was at college had things sent to my apt. I made my roommate hold them for me if I was home for the summer.
I was questioning my sexuality at the time. My roommate was gay, and I never, ever told my mom. I knew well her opinion of people like that, and I didn't want to give her any reason to make me move out of the apartment. My roommate were roomies for three years, and I learned a lot from her. She introduced me to people and things I would never have been introduced to otherwise, even though it took another four years for me to admit to myself that I was gay too. I've often toyed with the idea of emailing my old roommate and thanking her. I never have, but I think about it sometimes.
I don't practice Wicca anymore. I've sort of lost all trace of faith now, but I have a new secret to keep from my parents. I always thought there was something really wrong with me because I just wasn't interested in boys like my mother said I would be. She kept telling me eventually that's all I'd think about, and I never did. She never has let go of the idea that I was out basically prostituting myself, and still thinks I joined a cult. Being with M's father was more of an experiment than anything because no one had ever been interested in me beyond friendship before. It was something new.
So, do other people feel the need to keep things from or outright lie to their N parents?
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Dear Tayana
I really admire your honesty.I will have to think about your thread and get back.I just wanted to say that I think that you showed great courage in writing this thread. Love Ami
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I've thought about what I wanted to say most of the day, really. Thanks Ami. That means a lot.
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Tay,
It doesn't matter what you said you liked or didn't like - your parents would take the opposite stance. I wondered, for the longest time, why my parents ran in to say they 'couldn't stand' anything I liked. They thought my choice of college major was useless. She also pretends to understand everything I talk about - and know it better than me. Lately, I have been extrememly busy shuttling the kids from one sport to another. She claims she "remembers" those days. The fact is, she bitched about it so much I quit every sport. Everything was too much a hassle to do, in spite of the fact we lived in the middle of nowhere.
Tay, I don't tell them ANYTHING that means anything to me - ever. There is no point. I talk about the weather, my dog and the kids' achievements. I never broach anything of any substance because she will use it against me.
Trust me that nothing good can ever tcome of telling your parents anything that means something to you.
(((Tay))))))
By the way, if you get sick of me replying - tell me to give it a rest.
Love, Beth
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Dear Tayana,
Yes, absolutely! I think withholding important information that can be used to harm you is one of the cardinal rules of dealing with N's. Thats not to say you can't have a mostly honest relationship with them; it comes down to how vulnerable you feel about certain information.
With regards to `coming out' with your parents, I would expect that one day you'll be ok with it. That time might be, say, when you have the support of a loving partner and community around you, and when you are ready to face the possible rejection. Because its such a strong possibility, I would suggest that you prepare for it and make sure that you are ready to face the consequences.
I know all this is so hard to face, but its the way of things, with N's and their Co-N partners. They are not normal people who can support you in the way you deserve to be supported.
X Bella
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Beth, I never get tired of replies. I related so well to what you said. My mom chose my first college major for me. She was talking to the dean while I was auditioning for the music program, and somehow I ended up as a music major. I wanted to be a music minor. It worked out all right because I ended up getting most of my minor out of the way my freshman year, but it always incensed me that suddenly I was going to be a music teacher. I wasn't even certain I wanted to be a teacher of any sort. That was the profession my mother suggested I go into. I really wanted to do counseling or writing and editing of some sort. I dropped the music major and switched to English, but I was still in the education program. I'll never forget the day I dropped out of the education program to major in writing. My mom said "What the hell are you going to do with that?" You know what? It's actually been really useful. My employers have always liked it because most of them can't write at all, and I learned a lot of good analytical skills. I think I've been asked about my odd major in every interview, and I always get points because of my answers.
Oh and remembering shuttling me back and forth . . . M isn't really involved in too many things right now. I'm thinking about a couple of things, and he's in one club at school. I've tried to get him involved in stuff before and my mom complained so much that I finally dropped it completely because she would have had to drive him there. Oh and my mom "remembers" doing all sorts of things with me. It's really funny I don't remember doing things with her. I remember her promising things and never following through. Or else going out and spending a bunch of money to make up for it.
I haven't told my parents anything that really means anything for years. The one time I did talk about something that mattered to me, my job, my mom took it upon herself to start calling my employer and telling him how my job was making me sick from all of the stress. I had been trying to fight for the job because I really loved it. I was trying to get moved permanently to another building. I ended up having to find another job. She thought she was helping me.
I have never told either of my parents that I was stalked in college to the point that I was afraid to answer the phone or be home alone. I had done a guy on the street a favor, and he took it upon himself to follow me for about a month. I didn't tell them about the one guy I had a fling with. I didn't tell them about my second roommate who was into some very weird stuff and really scared me. I never told my mom that I came very close to committing suicide when I was pregnant. I still hadn't recovered from the depression I was suffering from in school.
Since I"ve moved, I've been very closed mouthed about things M's done in school. I've said nothing at all about IEP meetings, support services, or teacher comments. I don't talk about my job, other than to say I'm really bored. I certainly haven't told them that I made an appointment for M's yearly checkup just so I could talk to his doctor about his attention issues. Her comment when she found out he was going was, "YOU'RE taking him?" In the past few years she's taken him, but I used to take him all the time. I don't know when that changed. I'm not going to tell her that we were referred to a specialist to develop a treatment plan. She wants to put M in a box because "he's different" and "he has problems." I think that's cruel. It's time to focus on his strengths and not his weaknesses.
Bella, my mom is a master of using anything I tell her against me, so I've just learned to omit the majority of the truth. Even then she overreacts to everything. She'd been telling me that M is getting fat, even though he's at a normal weight. She'd told M that as well, and when I had the massive meltdown in April, he'd internalized that. He wanted to go on a diet. It was a red flag for me, because 10 year olds should not be having thoughts about dying or worrying about their weight. When he went to the doctor, he was still at a normal weight, but the doctor wanted me to make sure he ate a little healthier and got plenty of exercise because his BMI was normal, but a little high. He just wanted to keep it normal. I stupidly said something to my mom, and she started in about how she knew he was getting fat and that I shouldn't be feeding him junk and on and on. I kept trying to interrupt to explain that the doctor hadn't said that at all. He'd just wanted to point it out so I could take preventive measures not put him on a diet.
The only way, I'd ever come out to them is if they asked directly. I wouldn't lie then. I wouldn't lie to anyone who asked directly. Or if I was in a situation where I no longer needed their support, had a stable support system, not necessarily a partner, but at least friends who were supportive, and I was certain they'd disown me. I was always afraid that my mom would try to take M from me if I moved away. She'd made certain to tell me how I wouldn't last a week with him and that I couldn't survive on my own, so I was sure she'd try to take him away. Being gay would just give her another reason to try. She's certainly nasty enough to do that. It wouldn't surprise me if she wasn't having me followed, my phone tapped, and a PI snapping pictures at every turn.
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Tay,
She's so toxic and compulsive I'd never trust her with anything, honestly.
I'd keep the dream of moving to another place alive. But not discuss it with M until the plan's in place.
He will kick and fuss, maybe. But you and he could also have a happier life.
Elsewhere.
love
Hops
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Tay,
I felt sickened readling your posts on this thread. About your mother much of her behaviour was familiar to me, like my own mother. She is dead now but I spent most of my life, when she was alive, living in fear of her. Never knowing what she would do/say to mess up my life. It took me such a long time and much therapy to understand that she did not love me and was not capable of loving me. No matter how much I wanted it, it was never going to change. I learned to stand back, see her games and her acting out and detach from her. I still kept minimun contact with her but she became someone very much on the edge of my life. I had a lot of difficulties over the years and never told her any of these. Her response would have been just what your Mom would have said. Her words stopped meaning anything to me. I decided not to take her resentment and anger towards me personally ( this took a lot of years in therapy). In the end I could see what she was, a small angry woman who could not control the world any longer and who knew I could see her. She is dead many years now and I feel no hate towards her. I guess I don't feel anything towards her and that feels like progress.
If I have any regrets in my life it is that I wasted so much energy, time, love on someone who did not or could not love me. Your mother will never be available to you in a loving way Tay and that is very sad. My thinking is that every time you disclose anything about yourself you are setting your self up for more hurt. She does not care about your struggles and who you are........... she is on the game threadmill. I think it comes down to supply............ that is what you are, supply. I guess the question I want to put to you is What does that mean to you? How can you live your life not being supply to someone.
Well done for your strength and courage.
Axa
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Hops, I don't trust her. I never have. I never will. She used to say she'd love me no matter what and all she wanted was for me to be happy. That was after I asked her what she would do if I was gay. I was about 16 or so. I still didn't really have a clue, but I was questioning. But you know what? I didn't believe her. Espeically that line about me wanting to be happy. She's never really wanted that.
Axa, I have been so afraid of her. I wrote a book that I'm going to submit soon, where my main character is stalked by an ex. He's literally terrified of being alone and so afraid of the phone that he won't answer it. It's a paralyzing fear. I started writing this book before I moved, and since I've moved, I've realized the character was really my foil. And that phone thing? That's how I feel when I see my mother's number come up on my caller ID, or when I see an outside line show up at work. There's a bone-numbing panicked feeling of, "I can't handle this." And facing her in person is really odd, because on the one hand, I see her as a really small, sad person, but at the same time, I just have this fear of being alone with her. I know if I'm alone with her she'll start yelling and criticizing me, and I can't handle that. Then I come home, to my safe place, and just fall apart from trying to hold things together while I'm around her. I just literally fall apart as in curled in a ball, sobbing, wanting to die falling apart.
I tried to move out a few years ago, and I wish I would have scrimped and scraped enough money together to do it then. Even if it meant I had to rent the one bedroom apartment I looked at. I wish I would have left then. I couldn't really afford it, and it was smarter to pay off my debts. I just wish I hadn't waited so long.
I'm happier with no contact. I haven't even talked to my brother for a couple of days, and I don't feel badly about it. Unfortunately, I know this is going to be impossible to maintain. Eventually, she'll call, or I'll have to go out there. Or we'll run into each other, or something, and I'm going to have to deal with the chilling fear. I have moments when I come home where I'm nervous, and just have to stay in motion because I'm afraid the phone will ring and it'll be her. I don't like that feeling, although it gets better as time goes on. Today is day 13 of no contact.
Thanks for all of the support.
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Tayana,
The fear lessens. I promise you that. I used to be absolutely paralyzed with fear when I had to visit my parents. And it started a month out or more before the trip... Now, armed with knowledge and the support here, I have gone with just a blip of fear... and once I saw how truly ridiculous her bahvior was, I lost the fear almost entirely. I can see through everything now. I can anticipate and not get blindsided. I know her tricks and lies and manipulations. And I know how to counter them. Trust me, as you get more comfortable with taking a stand, it will be so much easier. And I believe she will back off - as my motehr has.
Love, Beth
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Beth, the thought of talking to or seeing my mother just makes me feel sick. The week before M went to camp, I was a basket case. I had hoped to get him there and back without my mom knowing, because I knew there'd be a blow up about it. I was trying to figure out how to deal with the dreaded evening call. I couldn't sleep. I kept bursting into tears. It was actually a relief when M blurted out he was going to camp, but I knew we were heading to a blow up. She was pretty nice about it at first, but it went downhill quickly. Her comment was, "My blood pressure's going to be through the roof this week worrying about that." I have never been so petrified as I was the week before camp. I wasn't even that petrified going in for surgery.
I don't think she'll back off. My brother kept saying she would back off too, but I don't think she will. Until the blow up over not getting to pick M up from camp, she hadn't backed off. She just kept intruding more and more, and she didn't like it when I stood my ground. I'm surprised we've gone almost two weeks with no contact, in fact. I figured she would have had to check on M by now. I know she doesn't care about me, because even when she called, she only called to check on M. She never asked me how I was doing. If I was holding up, if I needed a break, or whatever.
I wish I felt more comfortable standing my ground, and not like I've just stepped off the face of a cliff. I know her behavior is ridiculous, but the fear doesn't go away. It just causes so much anxiety. I've always had anxiety issues, but not like this. Just thinking about going to visit makes me ill, and having her come to my house, well that induces this obsessive compulsive need to clean that drives M nuts.
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i think that any kind of honesty with an N parent will get you in trouble. My M is "waiting" to get me. No matter what I do or what situation I am telling her about,she is waiting to "get" me.
So, anything from dog training, house decorating,H's ,friends, kids etc--- all have to be off limits. What do you talk about.......... the weather? Ami
PS My FIL was an N.In their family , either they were fighting (tearing each other's heads off) or they were talking about the weather. Whenever my H does not want to discuss s/thing,I remind him that we can always be like his family and just talk about the weather (bleh)
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Tay,
I know you are afraid now. I don't doubt that for one second. But I can assure you that the fear will lessen - especially as you get some distance from her. You know - it's kind of like my drinking. It was darned hard to quit and it crossed my thoughts constantly. And, as I got more settled about it, the fear and the desperation started to pass. And I went from having mostly bad days to having mostly good days. The same is true with my NM. I was fearful, and then I was angry, then I was hurt... and then the numbing settled in. I just meant to hang in there, girl :)
Ami,
I do only talk about the weather and my dog. Boring, but it cuts down on the lying and the anxiety. Boring as boring can be, but it gets me through the call...
Love, Beth
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Beth, I'm hanging in there. I had sort of planned to talk to my mom later this week, but after talking to my brother for much longer than I should have tonight, I don't think I'm going to. I post that in another thread though, because it's pretty sensational. Mind-blowing really.
I hope the fear goes away. My brother is very angry with my mom, but he's 14 years older than me, so I guess he got to a better place sooner than I did. He's not afraid of her. I guess I have a very different temperment. I was the "sensitive one.' She was always telling me "don't be so sensitive" or "can't you take a joke" or "you have no sense of humor." Somewhere, I guess my self esteem got so eroded that I just couldn't fight anymore.
Ami, my family talks about nothing because we can't talk about real issues. We can't even have an intelligent discussion about politics or anything like that. It just degenerates into something nasty. So we talk about non issues. The weather, the dog, homework (just generic homework stuff), etc. I get so bored at family gatherings because that's all we can talk about. Or we play pool. And we listen to my mom talk about herself and how sick she is.
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Dear Tay,
Every day of NC can build the fear, or build your strength.
She is NOT going to have the same power over you when you hear her abusive voice again.
You have some distance from it now.
She's just a miserable, negative woman who is repeating, mindlessly, tapes she internalized very long ago.
It's not your fault what she says, and it's not your job to hear her out.
It's okay to say NO, I want to be talked to lovingly. I won't listen to more criticism. Good-bye.
And hang up the phone.
I know you can do that, and the day you do, you will feel peace.
And that day, you will give her the opportunity to make a choice.
It will be up to her what she does with it. Up to you to release the outcome.
love
Hops
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Dear Tayana,
I just read read Hop's post.It hit me that we(if I can say that) do give our M's way too much power. To me, my M is still SOOOO big. I realized that as I read Hops post.I suspect that you might do that,too.
I guess that they were so awful, big, scary,unpredictable and raging that we have that image burned in to our brains. I still feel that way. I realize(in the head) that she can't hurt me.However,in my 'heart", she is still" big" and powerful. Boy,I have a long way to go. I see that now . Love Ami
It reminds me of the board member --SoSmall. She said that she always felt 'SoSmall"-bleh
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Tayana,
I think the reason your brother has it easier is twofold - he is a man and she would target him differently, and he is a man - and men can suppress emotions much easier. My mother used the "sensitive" crap on me too - "I'm only teasing," "You take everything too seriously," "You worry too much." I don't think that works as well on boys. Plus there is always a comparative jealousy wiht the same-sex child.
Love, Beth
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Hops, I visualize doing just want you say. I figure if I visualize it enough, it'll be able to happen. I'm one of those people who rehearse what I say over and over and over. I probably shouldn't, but I do. I don't feel the fear building with no contact. I do feel stronger and more clear minded. It's just the thought of contact that makes me afraid.
Ami, my T has often told me I give her too much power. I've been working on that. I've been working on being able to say, "My mother wouldn't like this . . . but I do, and I"m doing it anyway." I hung curtains in my living room this weekend. I'm sure I didn't do it to her satisfaction, and I could just hear her voice as I was doing it, but I don't care because the curtains look nice. I did them myself, and I think they are really pretty. I cut my hair off over the weekend. I went to get a trim and ended up getting it cut really short. I really like it, but my mom won't. I just keep telling myself, who cares what she thinks, it's my hair. I like the new short do. I'm working really hard at not hearing the voice that says, that looks bad, or you're doing it all wrong. I think one of the reasons I stuck so stubbornly to the IT world at work is because my mother knew nothing about computers and she couldn't tell me I was doing things wrong.
Beth, the fact that my brother is male makes a big difference. After all, she thinks men are there to take care of us weakling women, and she doesn't understand how I can take care of myself, spend a night alone, etc. I'm not scared to be alone, like her, and I am competent. But for years she told me I wasn't, couldn't ever take care of myself. I wanted so desperately to get away, and I felt so trapped. She's always been very jealous of me too. I don't know how many times I heard, "Well, I only have an eighth grade education, how do you expect me to help you." or "You're so much better than us now that you have your fancy education." She was always jealous of what I accomplished, and anything I enjoyed, she ridiculed. She even makes comments about my job now, "You make more money than your father . . ." And she says it like I"m supposed to apologize.
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Congrats on your hairdo tayana I bet it looks excellent!
Your comment on going into IT really hits home for me. I could never stand the thought of going into anything remotely scientific because my dad knows everything about science - or close enough. I was just thinking on the way in to work this morning that he really has not the first clue about anything I do now and I like it that way.
It seems to me that her remarks about weakling women are just more goo for manipulation. Like, she has to be taken care of by a man, but she completely controls her husband so... what? He's like her slave. But she has no responsibility. So how twisted and self-serving is this idea about weaking women? And isn't that just another way to cut you off from thriving and believing in yourself? And then when you turn out productive and earning a good salary it's a bad thing? How backward is that? It says to me that she does not want you to be productive and earning a good salary. She wants you all wrapped up in the spider web, imo. As Ami and others say - compost what does not work for you.
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I can see what Iphi is saying. The N mother's selfishness is to destroy anything about us that makes us "us". Anything that liberates us from her spider web has to be destroyed like loving ourselves---for example.
The selfishness is so total that when we get in the radius of the spider web, we are annilihated. Ami
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Iphi, I love it! A few minutes in the morning, a little spritz of gel and out we go. I didn't even bother with the curling iron this morning.
I agree totally with you. I don't understand why she doesn't want me to be independent and self sufficient. It doesn't make sense, but then nothing she does makes sense.
This is just an idea, but . . . when I got pregnant she made a comment about how my life was over. I don't think she likes the idea that I've managed to make a good life, in spite of adversity. The moment I got pregnant, that's when I became a failure, and she's spent years letting me know that. When I expressed normal frustration about being a parent, she would jump down my throat and make some crass statement about how I shouldn't have had the baby. She would be alternately smothering and then so distant and cruel that I didn't know what she wanted. At one point, she convinced me to take my son out of daycare so she could keep him full time. She didn't ask for money, then she got mad because I didn't pay her. I think she's very jealous of me because I managed to succeed, when I should have failed. In her mind, having kids means giving up your dreams, not revising your dreams to include the kid.
I got into IT by accident. When I was looking for a job a couple of years ago to get out of my high stress one, my mother suggested I take a secretarial position, even though I'd had specialized training, was vested in my retirement for local government, and liked what I did. She was looking in the paper and saw administrative asst. positions with higher salaries than my current job, so she thought I should do that, and it was more appropriate work for a woman than setting up server racks, hauling pc's around, and doing techie things. After all, I wouldn't have to crawl on the floor or play with power tools. She'd make comments all the time about me doing "man's work." She never stopped to think about that she used to do "man's work" when she was decorator going around measuring rooms and windows and mixing paint. And as much as I love decorating and that sort of thing, she's very critical about anything I do with my house, so I would never, ever go into anything she could criticize. At least IT is something she's totally clueless about.
Ami, you are so right. So very right.
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I got into IT by accident. When I was looking for a job a couple of years ago to get out of my high stress one, my mother suggested I take a secretarial position, even though I'd had specialized training, was vested in my retirement for local government, and liked what I did. She was looking in the paper and saw administrative asst. positions with higher salaries than my current job, so she thought I should do that, and it was more appropriate work for a woman than setting up server racks, hauling pc's around, and doing techie things. After all, I wouldn't have to crawl on the floor or play with power tools. She'd make comments all the time about me doing "man's work." She never stopped to think about that she used to do "man's work" when she was decorator going around measuring rooms and windows and mixing paint. And as much as I love decorating and that sort of thing, she's very critical about anything I do with my house, so I would never, ever go into anything she could criticize. At least IT is something she's totally clueless about.
Dear Tayana,
I don't really know if my mother had anything to do wit my getting into IT subconsciously, but it probably does help that she doesn't know anything about it. I love it though; its just something that took my interest when I was 25 because I was a 3D animator and video editor, so high speed computers were extremely exciting in 1995, in terms of all the new possibilities for creativity.
So I bought a ton of PC magazines and built my first computer for video editing and 3D. After that I started building and selling them to other animators and video editors and made my way into a computer building job, then sales, and then technical support. I just love it, all of it.
But what makes me laugh, is my mother used to tell everyone that my job was `teaching' rather than IT. For some reason she thinks teaching is a respectable job for women, whereas I'm not sure she even knows what IT is, lol.
X Bella
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Bella, that's a cool story. I got into it totally by accident. I had a graphics background and a local company hired me to design a catalog for them. My boss was the IT guy, and he decided to pawn his work off on me. So basically I had to learn by trial and error because he was no help. I spent a lot of time reading on the internet about how to fix things, because he'd give me a project and just walk off. After I got the basics down, I really liked it though, so I stuck with it.
I'm starting to get a little burned out though, and I'd like to do something else. I'm not sure what I want to do yet though.
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Tayana-
Congratulations on the spiffy new cut- that your NM wouldn't like it is definitely a plus in its favor!!!! I'm sure that it is flattering and youthful, artistic and sharp!!!
Keep remaking your life Tay- this is just the beginning of a beautiful glamorous you and a new world !!!
Love,
Changing
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Thanks Changing! I'm going to keep trudging forward, even when its hard, even if I end up totally divorcing myself from my family.
I hate that all of this nastiness is happening right before holiday time.