Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: JanetLG on October 24, 2007, 09:29:12 AM
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This is a complicated issue for me, so I'll try to explain it without writing a book.....
I always seem to be in a minority, whatever I do. I know that in my FOO that this kept happening - there was my dad and my brother as one 'group', and there was my mum and sister as another 'group'. Sometimes, both the groups merged for a whole, but I always felt an outsider.
As I've got older, I seem to revisit this over and over again. I find myself in the minority, and it is very upsetting. I don't know if I'm 'choosing' this, or if it more the case that it just occurs sometimes, and I don't handle it well when it does happen.
For instance, I have no children, so I am in a minority of about 20% of women.
I am self-employed, so I am in a minority of about 15% of working people.
I work from home, so people who 'go out' to work see me as 'different', and people who are homemakers see me as 'working', so I fit in with neither group.
I see myself as Christian, and go to church, so in the UK that puts me in a minority of about 8% of adults. But I go to a Unitarian church, which is absolutely tiny in terms of congregation size (about 5000 people in the UK). So, non-religious people see me as different, and 'traditional' Christians see me as different, too (even 'non-Christian', by some standards).
There are loads of other situations/choices, but these are the main ones.
The thing is, why does it get to me so much? Why aren't I confident enough to just make my choices, and be happy with them? Does it all come down to lack of self-esteem? Am I rebelling subconsciously, in everything I choose? Am I sabotaging myself, before anyone else has the chance to do it?
Dunno.
Anybody else know?
Janet
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Janet,
I struggled (and still do) with this for so long. I think it was because we were always placed outside of the circle of our family. I was always painted as the "different" one growing up. They still count my sister as part of "them" and me as outside - because of where I live, the music I like, the movies I watch - anything they can dream up.
I think all people are so individual that it is impossible to ever be in a majority. And any of the majorities I see, I am not sure I would want to be part of anymore. I am also unemployed right now (that has been hard on me). I speak a language that is not mainstream. I have a dog that is not mainstream. I have children who like school - a child told my daughter that was 'uncool.' My husband is a Marine - a small group there. I live in a small community. I do not drink as I am an alcoholic.I could go on and on. .I really do embrace my life now, as much as I can. I go to parties and don't drink - many get uncomfortable with this. I don't care if others do, we even have it in our house, but they can be strange about it.
I think it is all about becoming comfortable with who you are and waht is important to you. It is like Lupita asked about groups. Any normal person feels uncomfortable when first encountering a group, I believe. To become comfortable, you find a person or two to focus on and share with and that created a nice spot for you. I think life is about carving out those spots. Does this make any sense?
I get nervous when I think of vast ideas - like the endless universe. It scares me. The fact that the sun will blow up in a few million years. Those are huge ideas. So if I come back down to earth and look around me instead, I stay a bit more grounded and a heck of a lot more settled.
(((((((((((((Janet)))))))))))
Love, Beth
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Dear Janet,
Thank you for having the courage to broach this topic.I see it as a "cousin" of shame. Shame tells us that we are only O.K. if we "belong". However, WHERE is it that we are "supposed" to belong?
Like everything else about shame---it is a lie. It is a lie that we are only worth s/thing if we are in this group or that group.
I have found that WHEN I got in to the "group", the shame never left.It even got "worse" b/c I tried to heal from the outside and I failed ,once again.
I think that was a big reason WHY I 'gave up". I had belonged to all the "groups' that I was supposed to and I still felt awful inside-- even worse as each "group" failed me.
I did all the things that were supposed to make me "whole' and I was more and more fragmented.
I guess it is the lesson of the 'outside" will not heal or fill the inside.
I look at Bill Clinton( not a political statement)He achieved it all. He seems like it is never enough. He seems like he is STILL looking for what will make him finally be O.K.
i think that our O.K.place is in our own hearts( and with God)
This is a wonderful topic. Love You Ami
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Dear ((( JanetLG )))
Personally, I can relate to what you are saying, with genuine empathy.
Funnily enough, just recently, I have been writing my personal journal under the heading "Always Looking in From the Outside"
> And I became self-employed a few years ago and thereby entering into a new minority situation!
Sorry, JanetLG, but I am not much help as I don't as yet have any helpful thoughts at this stage --- hoping to though. :)
Looking forward to many insightful and meaningful postings on your most poignant thread JanetLG.
Love & Hugs,
Leah
Edited for very personal reasons
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Thank you, people!
Beth - I forgot about the fact that I don't drink, and I'm vegetarian, too. They are two BIG subjects that can cause disagreement when you first meet people - they often seem to find those topics intimidating.
And I know that FOO can always dream up even more ways that we don't fit in with them (not that we'd want to, often).
Ami - yes, it is very similar to the 'shame' ideas that have been discussed on here recently. I 'know' (superficially) that being part of this group or that group shouldn't make a difference, but it bothers me that it still DOES make a difference.
Shunned - Thanks for your comments. I try to see my uniqueness as something positive. But when I get a big black mood come over me, all that disappears. This last one just took me over completely for about two days, and I couldn't do anything except sit in a corner and cry, and wait for it to pass. Interestingly, what got me out of it (as well as emailing someone who really understands me) was sorting out some photos of relatives that I've unearthed while doing family history research - some of the pictures date from the 1850's. They cheered me up, because they gave me a sense of 'connectedness' that I don't often have.
Leah - I often feel that I am 'looking in from the outside'. In social situations, that can often be tangible. It's almost an 'out of the body' experience, it's so uncomfortable! Your comments ARE helpful, because now I know it's not just me!
Janet
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Leah,
I think that family history research is possibly one of those things that recovering N-survivors should HAVE to do, as it puts a lot of it all into perspective - what do you think? I have unearthed some strange stuff, such as, I reckon the N behaviour on my NMum's side goes back at least to the 1850's. And my passion for embroidery and dressmaking can be traced back, on several lines of my tree, though tailors, milliners, embroiderers and carpet weavers, to about 1750. Weird stuff!
Ami,
This link between feeling 'other' and shame is important.
What started this latest 'dark mood' was that I was surfing and found the website of a church near the one I go to, which had recordings of their sermons online. So, I started listening to one called 'No shame' (how relevant!).
But, ten minutes into it, the minister started to say that peole shouldn't be ashamed about spreading the Gospel, because we are all 'sons of God'. He kept on repeating that phrase - 'sons of God'. And it just upset me so much. Because at least half of his congregaryion were female, and I am female, and yet we have to listen to someone (male) saying 'we' are something that we can never be - a male child. Why couldn't he have said 'children of God'? Would that have been so difficult? By using language that women can't relate to, that kind of behaviour *causes* feelings of shame.
So, I emailed him, and told him that, and asked him why he chose to exclude women in the language that he used. And I got this defensive email back, saying that in their church, it 'simply wasn't an issue', and that they 'don't take themselves that seriously'. I asked again why can't he bring himself to be more inclusive, and call his congregation 'children of God', but he answered that email by just saying 'thanks for your comments', and now he won't reply at all.
It just really annoyed me that I was seen as 'other', outside, not important enough to be addressed directly, a 'failed man' kind of person. Usually, I can ignore idiotic language like that, but it just got to me.
Janet
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Janet,
Just picking up on the minister re: 'Sons of God', as written in scripture, it is collectively inclusive.
If the minister had have known his Greek, then he would have chosen his address, as he preached his sermon, as 'Children of God'
Another exclusion for me is:
> Went to Bible College and studied Theology -- so as to enable right understanding and can't be fobbed off with error!
> Henceforth, my credentials are not accepted by man. (no surprise really)
Going back to the minister and his statement to you "that they don't take themselves that seriously"
in my view, just about sums it up! :)
Love,
Leah
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Thanks, Leah!
My 'Bible theory ' is shaky, as I've only been going to church for almost a year, but 'inside myself' I know what FEELS right, and his response just smacked of defensive masculinist rhetoric, to me. Our minister would never be so awful, fortunately.
Janet
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Hi Janet,
Great topic, and I have felt this way frequently in my life, and have been feeling that way recently on the board.
So hold up everyone, it's not because of anyone on the board- well, unless it's because of your kindness when I posted a while back about my mother. A lot of times, such kindness overwhelms me and I need to draw back. I also sometimes need to get a bit of distance from a situation when it's going on, which is a fledgling response. I have distracted my self in unhealthy ways in the past, including endless rumination, so that is why I say this conscious distancing is new for me.
When my H and I were first dating, he told me I was weird, but a really good weird. I need to find my way back to the person I was then. I think that woman is still there. I've just not let her look in the mirror for so long, that she's a bit miffed with my surprise that she has aged over these past ten years.
I remember how Kelly said she feels overwhelmed by the volume of posts. That makes me feel "other" also, when I have not kept up. That is generated by my own self-criticalness, however. I see how everyone is ok with people when they come and go, and I don't think bad thoughts about others when they don't post for a while.
My H doesn't drink at all (is an alcoholic) and I will rarely have one of those dessert-y ice cream after dinner concoctions on special occasions. Too bad there aren't non- smoking bars around! I did learn to shoot pool a long time ago, because when I used to go to bars with my deceased H, I got bored. That is something I kind of miss sometimes. We live in a small town, and the bars are what they always were years ago. We'd be ok with the alcohol in a place, but not the smoking, and not the atmosphere after the patrons inevitably imbibe their usual quotas.
Just wanted to post as an act of coming out of self-imposed exile. I need to run and get some paint for my husband's bathroom in his garage. He's put up a very large garage in addition to our original one, and he's deliriously happy to have a man-space. He's asked me to help "decorate", so I'm having fun making it masculine.
This is a good thread, I like everyone's comments, and those are interesting questions at the end of your post, Janet.
Here's to everyone's uniqueness!
cats paw
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Hi Janet,
what a great topic and such great responses. Funny, I was just contemplating this topic this morning.
I agree that we were molded & conditioned to feel like outsiders. I think it's greatly due to how we were treated on our foo. Yes, I think we were made to feel like an outsider in our foo or our extended family & shame makes us feel like we don't deserve to belong. Yes, that feeling that we are always looking from the outside in and we want to be part of something, but are prevented from doing so. Yes, it may also be partly genetic.
For me, my parents always, always repeated to me "don't follow the crowd". Well, I absorbed that message to the max, so much so, that at times, I'm almost in isolation.
But,Janet, let me ask you this? Are you happy w/ some of the choices you made which leave you from outside of the group? Like working for yourself and being a vegetarian?
If you want to join a group, are there some groups you can join, groups in which you feel comfortable?
The irony for me is that when I have joined groups, I found some I didn't enjoy, so I dropped out & wound up groupless again.
For me, it's hard to find a group I want to join and it's painful to be rejected from a group that I wanted to join or remain in.
The thing is, why does it get to me so much? Why aren't I confident enough to just make my choices, and be happy with them?
I am going to sound like a broken record with my co-dependency stuff, but, here goes:
Why does it get to you & why do you not feel confident enough w/ yr choices:
Perhaps you are looking for validation from "a group" to validate your choices. Perhaps you are not validating your own choices, because you are not validating yourself.
So it seems to me, the questions are: Why are you not validating your own choices? Why are you not validating yourself? Are you seeking validation from others? Seeking validation from "a group"?
Love,
sally
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I am going to sound like a broken record with my co-dependency stuff, but, here goes:
Why does it get to you & why do you not feel confident enough w/ yr choices:
Perhaps you are looking for validation from "a group" to validate your choices. Perhaps you are not validating your own choices, because you are not validating yourself.
So it seems to me, the questions are: Why are you not validating your own choices? Why are you not validating yourself? Are you seeking validation from others? Seeking validation from "a group"
Sally's answer ,for me.IS the answer to the question. The answer is within our own perception of ourselves,but we have transferred it 'outside" ourselves. Codependency rears its ugly snake like head again It sure can disguise itself in so many ways.
Sally, thank you so much for your profound,but simple answer. Love Ami
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Cats Paw,
I understand what you mean about feeling a bit 'other' when you don't post for a while, even though people on here are very understanding about the flowing in/flowing out that people have to do, when they just have to get on with their lives for a bit.
Sally,
I think you've hit on something important, there. It's not necessarily that I don't belong, but that I feel I don't DESERVE to belong. And that bit DEFINITELY comes from my FOO (NMum, almost exclusively).
Some of my choices I am very happy about, like the vegetarianism, and the self-employment. But I do hate having to justify it to others, just the same. It's like when I tell people that I have NC with my mother. Difficult! :shock:
I do find it very hard to validate myself. If you gave me two choices for spending the day - doing what you want, with you, or doing what I want, I'd do whatever you wanted, every time. I have trouble doing what Ami is struggling with - nurturing myself (although I'm working on it :) )
I do tend to feel that groups 'push me away' when it might be that I don't 'push myself in'. It just seems to be a pattern that is becoming more and more set as I get older, and it bugs me! The rejection (or perceived rejection) is hurtful, so I withdraw.
Janet
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Janet,
that I feel I don't DESERVE to belong. And that bit DEFINITELY comes from my FOO (NMum, almost exclusively).
Ok, good, you have identified a major source of this feeling: You feel you don't deserve it. To me, when we feel we don't DESERVE things, the source sounds like toxic foo shame. I think your NM conveyed the negative message to you that you were/are 'a bad little girl & you don't deserve ANYTHING'! This negative message caused you to feel shamed.
Perhaps do some work on this shame. I love John Bradshaw. I'm going to paste some stuff I wrote about shame in another thread:
Here's some thoughts about unhealthy toxic shame based on books I read by John Bradshaw: Eventually,you will see that it is not your shame, but rather someone placed the shame on you. It's someone else's shame (most likely your parents' shame because we are not born with shame; someone has to place shame on us). So, people projected shame upon us and we absorbed the shame like a sponge and consequently, we mistakenly believed that it is our inherent shame, but it's not. Feeling shame is carrying someone else's emotional baggage. Unfortunately, this shame is handed down from one generation to the next and it's so old, no one really knows where it originated. It's like free floating shame.
But I do hate having to justify it to others, just the same. It's like when I tell people that I have NC with my mother.
Janet, you do NOT have to justify any of YOUR PERSONAL CHOICES TO ANYONE OTHER THAN YOURSELF. I suppose this is the essence of what it means to validate ourselves and not seek validation from other people. As children, we were under the thumb, the servitude of our N parents and so we could never validate ourselves. In order to survive, we could only be validated by our N parents.
Problem is that now we are adults and we have the power to validate our selves, but the N damage has stolen our ability to validate ourselves. So, we need to re-claim our ability & power to self validate and we must chuck out our automatic reaction to seek validation from other poeple or groups.
Id do whatever you wanted, every time. I have trouble doing what Ami is struggling with - nurturing myself (although I'm working on it
Janet, it's sooo good that you are aware of this, because I think awareness is half the battle. Yes, keep working on it.
Nurturing ourselves: This is probably one of the BEST things we can do in life, because if we don't nurture ourselves, we starve ourselves almost to the point that there is no more self left. The self vanishes. Wow, Janet, funny connection: I recall you had an eating disorder & I am connecting lack of self nurture with eating disorders: I think they both can kill us, spiritually &/or physically.
I do tend to feel that groups 'push me away' when it might be that I don't 'push myself in'.
Janet, I feel this way too, but as I feel this, I ask myself (redundantly): Is this an issue of not validaing myself & seeking external validation from others? If I want to join a group, then I can't let fear & shame prevent me from taking action to join. If the group rejects me, well, that is part of life and, then ask myself: Did I do something to cuz the group/person to reject me (own my responsibilty) and/or is the group/person Nish?
And, I'd ask myslf: have I worked on giving myself (self nurture!!) enough POSITIVE AFFIRMATIONS (replace negative foo messages w/ positive affirmations), so that if I am REJECTED, I know I'm not destroyed, I can live & still be happy, whether or not I find a group/person I like because the UNIVERSE is loving & accepting of me & I am part of the universe? (these are positive self affirmations which have replaced the old negative foo messages) This last part is also a bit of zen thinking.
Ami, thank you for your kind words.
Love,
sally
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Sally,
Thanks for all that.
With some of my NMum's projected *guilt*, I WAS able to hand it back to her, because I eventually believed it rightfully belonged with her (she had me lie to my dad to cover up her affairs when I was a teenager). But the idea of the *shame* of not being deserving enough to have ANYTHING... that one hasn't been dealt with.
The 'nurturing myself' idea is doubly hard when, as you've said, I had anorexia for years, which is non-nurturing taken to the extreme (although, interestingly, as soon as I left home and got away from my NMum's clutches, I put on weight like nobody's business, until I was a normal weight after a year, with no weight problems after that, ever).
I think that awareness of any of this stuff is always a big step in the right direction, then it just needs practice, practice, practice!
Janet
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Leah,
The most recent time I was explaining that I don't see my NMum was when I visited my homeopath. As usual, I was a bit sheepish about explaining about it, but she just said 'Oh, you too? Mine's schizophrenic and mad as a hatter. Haven't seen her for eight years. How long is it with you? Don't they just drive you up the wall?' She was so 'normal' about it, it was great!
Janet
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Dear Janet,
I was thinking about the feeling of "not belonging". I don't think that "any" type of actual belonging in real life will 'take it away".
I think that it is an "inside " job,as they say.
I think about so many 'rites of passage" that I thought would make me feel like I belonged .They all failed me.
I "threw myself " away at 14. My next 'goal' to "find myself( feel like I belonged) was to go to a good college and have a "new life".I was lost to myself and numb so whatever I did in college did not feel "real". i did not feel like it was "me" doing it.I never felt like I belonged b/c I did not belong to myself.
Then,I thought if I went to graduate school,I would be special and feel like I was "something". That did not work.
Surely marriage would give me a sense of self ( and belonging). This appeared to do this,but it was an illusion. Down deep,I hurt just as much.Every other big life event(having kids, houses, etc etc)had the same disappointment with it.
I only belonged when I belonged to myself a long,long time ago. Belonging on the outside is really belonging on the inside(IMO) Love Ami
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Ami,
You've just made me remember a book I used to have when I was small - a lovely picture book that an aunt (family friend, not a relative) bought me. It was called 'Crispin Crispian - the Boy Who Looked After Himself'.
I loved that book. It was the story of a boy who lived in the woods with his dog (he was about 6 - the age I was when I got the book). He grew his own vegetables, and made cabbage soup for himself (and his dog, for some reason!). He cleaned his house, took his dog for walks in the lanes around his house, and did all the things that needed to be done for himself and his dog, all on his own, and nobody interfered with the way he was living. It was magical. The pictures were very soft watercolours. The actual book was huge in page size.
I loved that book because the boy knew who he was, and had such confidence in himself. He belonged to himself so much, he was so contented. His parents weren't mentioned at all in the whole book! Can't remember much of the actual 'storyline', just the feeling that I wanted to be like that.
Janet
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Dear Janet,
I think that is how we have to be for ourselves-----now.(A little late in the learning---HUH?) Love to You Ami
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Yeah, but isn't it HARD?!
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Janet,
I have always felt like I was an outsider in my family. We have nothing in common, and the things I was interested in my family never really cared about or else they ridiculed. My mother's line was always, "You need to stop living in your fantasy world and get your head in the real world where it belongs." I never understood what that meant. She uses that line for my son now.
I always felt like everything was a big charade with my family, and when I tried to socialize in groups, I was really scared. I didn't feel like I fit in. I was very self-conscious about my clothes, the way I talked, everything. I thought people were humoring me all the time, and so I didn't feel like I really fit in. I always had to hold something back. I have had a few friends that I didn't feel like I had to hold back from, but they were very few.
I have never really been anywhere that I found that "sense of belonging." I keep hoping for it, but I haven't found it yet.
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Ami,
You've just made me remember a book I used to have when I was small - a lovely picture book that an aunt (family friend, not a relative) bought me. It was called 'Crispin Crispian - the Boy Who Looked After Himself'.
I loved that book. It was the story of a boy who lived in the woods with his dog (he was about 6 - the age I was when I got the book). He grew his own vegetables, and made cabbage soup for himself (and his dog, for some reason!). He cleaned his house, took his dog for walks in the lanes around his house, and did all the things that needed to be done for himself and his dog, all on his own, and nobody interfered with the way he was living. It was magical. The pictures were very soft watercolours. The actual book was huge in page size.
I loved that book because the boy knew who he was, and had such confidence in himself. He belonged to himself so much, he was so contented. His parents weren't mentioned at all in the whole book! Can't remember much of the actual 'storyline', just the feeling that I wanted to be like that.
Janet
Janet,
The book you mention teaches that Crispin Crispian belonged to himself.
Resilience and Self Reliance.
Your Aunt may have given you the book for with a purpose --- maybe, just maybe, she discerned the situation you were in.
Love
Leah
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Tayana,
I know that feeling of being an outsider in your own family. My husband says that the stork must have dropped me out of that 'sling' thing before it got to the right address - because I'm not like the rest of my family, and they'v never understood me (or wanted to try).
Leah,
Yes, I think that aunt of mine realised a lot of what was going on. She wanted a girl, apparently, but had two boys. She always bought me wonderful (appropriate) presents - one Christmas, when I was about nine, and was retreating into myself as much as I could, she gave me a whole HEAP of those 'abridged' classic novels re-written especially for children. I couldn't believe I'd got such a great present ! I hid behind the sofa all day, reading them in the peace and quiet. Soon after that, my NMum argued with her, and I didn't see her again.
Janet
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Leah,
Yes, I think that aunt of mine realised a lot of what was going on. She wanted a girl, apparently, but had two boys. She always bought me wonderful (appropriate) presents - one Christmas, when I was about nine, and was retreating into myself as much as I could, she gave me a whole HEAP of those 'abridged' classic novels re-written especially for children. I couldn't believe I'd got such a great present ! I hid behind the sofa all day, reading them in the peace and quiet. Soon after that, my NMum argued with her, and I didn't see her again.
Janet
Janet,
Oh I am sorry that you never saw her again, that must have been hard on you at the time.
My Aunt (Nmother's sister) was very kind to me. Then one Christmas when she came to the door laden with Christmas gifts for us all,
my Nmother created an unpleasant scene with my Aunt, who was not allowed into the home and turned away.
Never saw my Aunt again.
Nmothers all behave the same - so it would seem.
Love
Leah
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Oh Leah, that's horrible, too.
It seems NMothers particularly can't stand seeing someone else being loving and giving to 'their' children - it just shows them up too much.
Janet
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Yes, you're absolutely right.
Was just thinking about you receiving and enjoying the HEAP of 'classic' books .... must have been bliss! :)
Leah x
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Janet and Leah,
I can't imagine it if I wouldn't have been able to see my grandmother when I was growing up. Your aunts' love must have been very special for you to carry the memory of the sweetness within you. Did either of you understand at the time, why you never got to see your aunts again, or did you only understand it later?
My H used to say that a buzzard s... me on a rock and the sun hatched me, because there was no way I could belong to my parents. What Janet's H said reminded me of it.
cats paw
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Leah,
Yes, it was bliss.
When I left school, I worked in a library for 17 years before I started my business. I loved the books (but not always the staff!!).
Our house has wall to wall books - I just can't resist buying them!
On my birthday a couple of years ago, my husband took me out to a bookshop for the day (what a lovely guy he is!), which also had a vegetarian cafe on the top floor. Heaven! We were there all day long. When we went to pay for what we'd chosen, we had 23 books between us. The man behind me in the queue had one. I said to him 'How can you buy just ONE?'. He said ' I only wanted one!' rather weakly.
Strange person :shock:
When we got home, we spent the next two weeks reading what we'd bought. It was lovely.
Cats Paw,
It's such a strong feeling of 'not belonging', isn't it?
I didn't understand at all for years why my favourite aunt wasn't around any more. My NMum always used to explain it as if the aunt had argued with HER, rather than the other way round, but knowing my NMum, that's rubbish.
Janet
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Janet and Leah,
I can't imagine it if I wouldn't have been able to see my grandmother when I was growing up. Your aunts' love must have been very special for you to carry the memory of the sweetness within you. Did either of you understand at the time, why you never got to see your aunts again, or did you only understand it later?
My H used to say that a buzzard s... me on a rock and the sun hatched me, because there was no way I could belong to my parents. What Janet's H said reminded me of it.
cats paw
My memories of my aunt are precious to me.
Remember staying overnight one time, had such a lovely weekend. Her husband, my uncle was lovely gentle man. As i lay in bed that night, after my Aunt had kissed me goodnight and tucked me in, I dreamt that they would want to adopt me.
As for that day when my Nmother turned my Aunt away, at the time, as a young girl, it baffled me as to why. But I would never dare ask why.
Years later, as a young woman, I sought my aunt and found her, and made contact. My aunt disclosed some matters regarding my Nmother and her behaviour. My aunt and I kept in contact by telephone and correspondence --- but, I did not tell my Nmother. My aunt feared repercussions.
Love
Leah
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Dear Janet,
Hugs to you; I'm sorry you had a rough 2 days, and that the priest didn't really hear you or acknowledge your feelings of alienation. I can defiantely understand:)
From reading through this thread, I think perhaps the idea of `belonging within a community' is what you're missing right now, and it really does make a lot of sense that you would want that. I think everyone does, except many people fulfill that need through parenthood, work, and their families of origins. Perhaps feeling down could be seen as a sign of how big this need is becoming for you now, and therefore its something worth really addressing?
My only advice regarding community-building is that it can really help to think out not just the type of people you want be around, but maybe also the role you want within the group. When i think back to the times when I've felt a strong sense of belonging, it was usually because I'd found myself in a position where what I offered to others within the group was valuable to them, such as a particular service or role. And it was something I felt comfortable giving, of course. For example, some people are entertainers, some are leaders, some are teachers, some are cake-bakers or motherly types. I think there is a place for everyone; its just a matter of finding where you fit, I guess.
The other thing ( that's been harder to learn, and related to shame for me,) is realizing that being a part of a community really does take some time and being prepared to work through emotions and problems. In the workplace, for example, you're kind of forced to do that. But when you're more independent, its a bit easier to just walk away from any situation that feels a bit uncomfortable....which could be any time we feel slightly rejected or butt heads with someone. Shame can be the thing that makes us give up, instead of trying again.
Anyway, I hope some of this will be of help to you.
X Bella
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Good day to you ((( Janet )))
Just wanted to say that I am thinking of you.
Love & Hugs,
Leah
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Dear Bella,
When I read your post,it reminded me of the times that I felt like I "belonged" to myself. When I felt that I belonged to myself,I felt like I belonged with others,in whatever group I happened to be in.
I think that belonging to ourselves is the root of the larger issue(IMO) Love Ami
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Bella,
The 'belonging in a community' IS something that's becoming more important, I think. We live in a small village that is quite isolating (I think you have to have been born here, or lived here 300 years, before they think of you as 'one of us'). Most people are 'friendly', but not 'close'. Obviously, I have almost no relatives that I'm in contact with - my Dad, and recently his brother (but only by email), and that's it. My husband's two children are in their late twenties now, so we only see them a couple of times a year - which is OK, they have their own lives to lead.
But working from home does mean we are VERY isolated from all that 'work stuff' that keeps people busy (pub lunches, social evenings, etc - even 'office politics' can be at least something to moan about with other people!).
The church I go to is a good one, but it is very small - about a dozen people on a good day. And I'm about the youngest one there. So there's not much to get involved in, as there isn't the 'critical mass' to make much possible. But I do think it's the likeliest place to make friendships, at the moment. But it does take effort, as you say.
It doesn't help that generally I don't like noisy gatherings, either, and smalltalk drives me crazy.
Leah,
Thanks for thinking of me!
Ami,
Yes, I think that feeling as if you belong to yourself has to come first, and then feeling like you belong with others follows much more easily.
Janet
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yikes!
you've described a lot of my feelings perfectly!
in my FOO, my parents had eachother, my younger brothers (7 & 9 years younger than me, 2 years age difference between them) had eachother, and i was alone.
i, too, am self employed, childless, vegetarian, don't drink. also i'm gay. yup i feel quite 'other'. oh and now i'm also a minority among people i know in that i no longer have a relationship with my FOO.
its hard, sometimes, but i've always been really independent (had to be, what with my N parents !!) so i'm OK with it, for the most part.
stay strong~you'll be alright!~
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Enough,
Thanks so much for your post.
Most of the time, I'm OK with my choices. It's just when I'm 'triggered' by events like the one with the minister from the 'Church Where Women Have to be Men' that I get set off!
I'd forgotten to include myself in the 'minority group' of 'women who don't speak to their FOO'. That's quite a no-no, isn't it? Usually guarantees a shocked silence, then a 'Well, I could NEVER do that to MY family!!!!!' kind of response.
The response I give now is along the lines of 'Well, I'm glad you don't understand, because that means that you didn't have to go through what I did'.
I think that if I work on the idea of self-nurturing more, and self-validation, and all the other 'self' things that got squashed out of me by my NMum, I'll be a lot happier for it!
Janet
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Janet, Enough...
I remember when I was freelancing for very long periods, the sense of isolation got profound. And I'm in a small but sociable city. I'd be thinking, alone, all day to do my work...and it became too natural. I think isolation can breed more isolation. Wonderful at times, but for me, a danger zone.
Janet, I think your response is perfect. Compassionate to others while asserting your right to your own experience at the same time. Great remark.
Hops
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Bella,
The 'belonging in a community' IS something that's becoming more important, I think. We live in a small village that is quite isolating (I think you have to have been born here, or lived here 300 years, before they think of you as 'one of us'). Most people are 'friendly', but not 'close'. Obviously, I have almost no relatives that I'm in contact with - my Dad, and recently his brother (but only by email), and that's it. My husband's two children are in their late twenties now, so we only see them a couple of times a year - which is OK, they have their own lives to lead.
But working from home does mean we are VERY isolated from all that 'work stuff' that keeps people busy (pub lunches, social evenings, etc - even 'office politics' can be at least something to moan about with other people!).
The church I go to is a good one, but it is very small - about a dozen people on a good day. And I'm about the youngest one there. So there's not much to get involved in, as there isn't the 'critical mass' to make much possible. But I do think it's the likeliest place to make friendships, at the moment. But it does take effort, as you say.
It doesn't help that generally I don't like noisy gatherings, either, and smalltalk drives me crazy.
Janet
Dear Janet,
That does sound like a very difficult situation to work with, in terms of the limited options in your town. I can see why the priest's behavior would have hurt so much, as the Church group is perhaps the only real community that seems viable to you right now. And he kind of `stole' that from you in a way, through his sexist language, and then failing to address how alienating that can feel to a woman . Its exactly the sort of thing that would hurt me too, Janet, so I can understand completely. Sadly, Christian religion is so traditional and it is based on patricachy, which probably suited the political and cultural climate 2000 years ago. It may be one of things you'll need to `swallow' in order to cope with the positive aspects of the community, although i know that is so hard to do.
I have the same `gulf' in my life, but it kind of helps that I live in a city (although I hate cities, lol). I have been thinking a lot about this during the year, and I think i have found something which will suit me. I am thinking of joining our wild-life caring program in our area. It is a community of people who rescue injured wild-life and rehabilitate them. The group can do a variety of classes to gain basic qualifications is caring for native animals, and there are regular meetings. i am also part of a birding group along with my father, which I would like to get a lot more involved with over time. Right now I contribute photos and information about local birds and bird watching spots. The more active members (like my father) travel a lot to do bird counts and protect local habitats. He's actually in the Toress Straight Islands right now, with a group who are studying wader populations.
In any case, i know how you feel. It is really is such a different life being at home, and not having family around. But please keep thinking on it; I'm sure you will wrk through this. It sounds liek it needs your attention.
Love and hugs to you!
X bella
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I am learning to let go of foo, as painful as that has been for me, it is the only way I can move on and be the person I want to be.
The next step for me is to detach from a nh who can't see me for the person I am, only the person he needs me to be to enable his disorder.
Getting support from healthy support groups and relating in healthy ways has helped me to let go of the feeling left out or different.
When my aunt way dying, we became close and with the absence of other family members to distort and cause problems, we were able to develop a loving relationship that helped me become part of her life in ways I would have never dreamed. She was the mother I never had and I was the daughter she mnever had. Because the other family members were not able to care or show concern, my aunt and I were left alone to be together and that was the greatest gift they could have given us.
I know that now, even though at first I could not see why they closed her out and left us to deal with her illness alone. In the end it was indeed a blessing. I see my life as the same. When the wrong ones go away I am left right where I need to be. It sometimes takes me a while to see it that way. I was taught to think I was being left out.
Sometimes being left out is a blessing.
BR.
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Dear BR,
What a wise and luminous post.
Thank you.
I'm really glad you're here.
Hops
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Hi Janet-
This is not my area of expertise (I may not have an area really), but in my humble opinion, you are a true artist, whose very nature is one of leading the way, being ahead of the zeitgeist, and seeing the microcosyms and macrocosyms of the world with a unique vision and clarity. This is your gift and your curse.I am cloddish and an outsider from society by virtue of my rejection by my FOO. It is different for you.You are an Artist and as such must express your individual truth and may not always be understood or appreciated by those who are more prosaic. But you are charged with the sacred task of bringing new light to mankind (even if we are too stupid to appreciate it) and to show a new path.
You are also a lovely and adorable person and a good friend and I hope that you will always be happy just as you are!!
Love,
Changing
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Hops,
Thanks for validating me re. working at home being isolating. I know that that is part of the problem. To be homest, I would hate to 'go out' to work now - it's so flexible to be at home all day - but it does have its own problems, which don't often get talked about.
Bella,
I am working on trying to find some kind of group to join - possibly the charity where I sponsor the two children, as they always need what they call 'advocates', who are trained volunteers to go to various events and have stands at shows, etc, to try to get more sponsors. I think I'd be good at that, as I think the charity is great, and I can do 'selling' face-to-face.
Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough in my earlier post, but the sexist minister was from another denomination - an Evangelical (quite extreme) Christian church, but in the same town as the church I go to. I just thought I'd look through their website to see if they had a good site, info-wise, as me and my husband are overhauling the website of our own church, and we're on the lookout for things to put on it. The attitude of that minister was a shock to me, but I know that most Christian churches have such a strong patriarchal attitude, it amazes me how many women are willing to attend them and not feel completely ignored/oppressed. It took me years to get round to actually going to a church, because of the sexist attitudes that I knew were endemic. That's why I was so pleased when I found out about the Unitarian Church, as it is so different, despite being what we call 'liberal Christian'. More than half the ministers are women (they've had female ministers for over 100 years), they use gender-neutral language as much as possible, they are tolerant of other religions (we often have readings from other religions, as well as poetry, literature, newspapers, etc). It's more like a meeting for deep-thinkers than 'just' a church, sometimes! And out minister is lovely - the phrase he uses most often is 'you make up your own mind - we're not going to force you to believe anything!'. That's so different from most churches.
betr4,
You were very lucky to have a close relationship with your aunt - it sounds like you both helped each other a lot.
" I see my life as the same. When the wrong ones go away I am left right where I need to be. It sometimes takes me a while to see it that way. I was taught to think I was being left out.
Sometimes being left out is a blessing."
Thanks for that bit - if only I can see it more like this, more of the time, I think that will be very helpful.
Changing,
You are so sweet. Your post made me cry. That you can take time out when you have so much on your plate right now to post something like that is just wonderful.
I must admit I don't like to think of myself as an Artist (or even an artist without the capital 'A'), because I don't think I'm any good. What I do is just 'the thing that I do'.
I don't think you're cloddish at all. And you're going to make a great lawyer.
Janet
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When the wrong ones go away I am left right where I need to be. It sometimes takes me a while to see it that way. I was taught to think I was being left out.
Sometimes being left out is a blessing.
BR.
Hello BR
Absolutely!
Through the pain shines a light with a blessing, and indeed, it is very much "Being left out"
Like Hops said, I am glad you are here.
Love
Leah
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Janet,
As I mentioned earlier, regarding the website where you heard the sermon, if the minister had have known his Greek, then he would have chosen his address, as he preached his sermon, as 'Children of God'.
The minister's reply with his statement to you "That they don't take themselves that seriously" in my view, just about sums it up! :) But I would add that it may be in the publics interest if he were to add that statement to his church website .... in doing so, may prevent unnecessary angst for unsuspecting souls entering into his so called evangelical church. How can such a minister, or any minister, who does not take himself seriously possibly have a hope of "evangelising?!"
He certainly did not catch you in his fishing net!!
The real truth is, having spent several years researching the early church, and the patriarchal system, and also in addition, the history of the church to present day ...... Woman being treated as they have been in the past, and are being treated in present day - in any church system --- is a Big Lie!
And unbelievably, the proof is in the early church patriarchs writings!!
No, I am not an active 'feminist' (as I have been branded - another minority label enrobed upon me!)
Just a person who happens to have been born of God as a woman -- of worth, with dignity, who has a right to seek the truth, and to know the truth.
I don't have a denominational label --- but rather, truthfully refer myself as a believing Christian.
The nearest label I would think would be a 'thinking' 'non-conformist' if a label is deemed as necessary.
The problem with 'religion' to be honest is that it is too manmade.
My life history affirms my genuine love for people as individuals; regardless of nationality, 'religion', doctrine, colour, race etc.
N's and toxic people --- are my only stumbling block in life.
Hope you have a great day Janet and it truly is a blessing to know you.
Love
Leah
'God says that we are to love one another - thats good enough for me' :)
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Leah,
That's a good suggestion about the sexist minister adding a 'disclaimer' to the website so that possible 'newcomers' like me might be forewarned! I'm not going to let him off the hook too easily, even though he refuses to email me back - I'm going to write to the church, and hope that a different person gets to read the letter, outlining my experience, to see what response I get that way (the sexist minister is the webnmaster, unfortunately, so he can 'lock the gates' on me if I try to communicate via email).
It's ironic that he washed his hands of me so fast, isn't it? Obviously, they don't want questioning types in their church...which is worrying, as their congregation is about 600, according to the website.
I know that the history of the Christian church is fraught with patriarchal sexism. Can you recommend any books I could read, though, about how the early church was altered? I have tried looking online, but whenever I search, the titles that come up always seem to be justifying the current state of things, and the subversive stuff can't be found. I'd like to be better informed about it, really.
I am not an 'active feminist', either. But the term 'feminist' has become so maligned, now, that it is difficult to define feminism anyway, these days. Any woman who tries to get fair treatment for herself or other women is 'branded' a feminist, as if she's a witch or something. And don't get me started on the way so-called 'witches' were treated...!
When I have been tracing my family history, I have been really surprised by the number of times I have found relatives (especially on my Dad's side) who were non-conformists of one kind or another. Baptists, Zionists, Congregationalists...some of them so far back, they must have been so determined to live their truth, as it was dangerous to 'come out' with opposing views in those days. So, some of my 'being different' is genetic, I think.
Thanks for your posts - they are really helpful to me, and it's great to know you, too!
Janet
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Hi Janet,
You might find a lot of interesting material here...(particularly thru links at the end):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_feminism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_feminism)
hugs
Hops
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Hi Janet,
Just got back in, so have not been ignoring your post - will post a couple of superb books for you.
Smiling here :)
Hi Hops,
Perused your link to wikipedia re:Christian Feminists ....... "not another label enrobement says I ?!" whilst smiling :)
Feel I wish to labour the point that I am in no way a Christian Feminist --- but rather, a woman who has a right to the truth
which is ..... God created Man (Adam) and Woman (Eve) EQUAL - to rule together, alongside one another, helping one another.
Had a great afternoon out and about in a 'community role'
Love & Hugs,
Leah (who wishes to remain 'labelless' !)
... God says we are to love one another --- that will do for me :)
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Does God Really Prefer Men?
An Open Letter To The American Church
www.doesgodreallyprefermen.com/ReadAnExcerpt.html (http://www.doesgodreallyprefermen.com/ReadAnExcerpt.html)
Free E-Book
PLUS
Lots of website Links
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.godswordtowomen.org/main.htm (http://www.godswordtowomen.org/main.htm)
... for women to assume the full scope of the role for which they were created.
Site also supports women who have suffered abuse.
Lots of Articles and Links etc.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Recommend the following BOOKS which I have read recently, and have used in my research:
(1) JUNIA The First Woman Apostle by Eldon Jay Epp
Yes, there was a woman apostle, she is in the new testament ---depending upon which version of Bible you possess!
Romans 16:7
The apostle Paul, gave Junia the title of apostle, alongside her partner, Andronicus.
Junia was recognised by the early Christian writers and the Orthodox church.
Educated Women actually served as Leaders in the early church and had freedom to speak in the church
(2) What Paul Really Said About Women by John Temple Bristow
An Apostle's Liberating Views on Equality in Marriage, Leadership, and Love.
The apostle Paul has been so maligned - wrongly, for saying that women should be quiet, subjective and submissive.
All taken out of context, and a text out of context is a pretext.
When I attended Bible College to study Theology ten years ago --- to their credit they actually pointed out the truth
regarding the words of the Apostle Paul.
The fact is years ago ordinary women were not educated outside the home.
But, Noble women were educated.
.... That's the difference.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ten Lies The Church Tells Women
FOR CENTURIES, A PATRIARCHAL SYSTEM OF CONTROL HAS KEPT WOMEN IN SPIRITUAL CAPTIVITY
THROUGH DISTORTION OF THE SCRIPTURES.
IT'S TIME TO DEBUNK THE MYTHS.
By J. Lee Grady
We live in the 21st century, but if we're honest we have to admit that in some ways the church is still in the Dark Ages--especially when we look at the way we treat women.
Even though the Scriptures never portray women as secondary to men, our male-dominated religious system still promotes a warped view of female inferiority. Women are tired of this, and as a man, so am I--because such demeaning attitudes don't reflect God's heart.
Jesus challenged gender prejudice at its core when He directed so much of His ministry toward women. In a Middle Eastern culture that considered women mere property, He healed women, discipled them and commissioned them to minister. Yet today we spend much of our energy denying them opportunities--and using the Bible to defend our prohibitions.
I've identified 10 erroneous views about women that for too long have been circulated in the church, preached from pulpits and written in the study notes of popular Bible translations. I believe we must debunk these lies if we want to see the church fully released to fulfill the Great Commission.
http://godswordtowomen.org/studies/articles/Grady.htm (http://godswordtowomen.org/studies/articles/Grady.htm)
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Hops and Leah,
Thanks so much - I'll follow them up now....
Janet
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Dear Janet,
Your church sounds really awesome, and what a blessing to have such a group in your town! I also agree that you'd be so good at the public-education/ sales side of charity
work. Its sounds like one of those organizations that you'd feel so good about promoting too.
I hope you are feeling ok today; its been such a big week for you with all thsi and now your Dad being in hospital. I'll be thinking about you!
X Bella
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Janet-
I see you as a rare person, certainly. Your artistic talent is something most of the rest of us can only dream about. Your kind heart,ethics and intelligence are well-formed and not in the average range. Your sweet love story and happy marriage are also things that many would love to emulate, if they only could.
All of humanity has intrinsic worth,and I am not disparaging anyone whose tastes and life happens to run its course down the mainstream . But you are special Janet- though you may not always get recognition for it, and it may have some lonely moments. There are many women who live in oppression, who cannot use their talents and choose their own paths- they are required to follow a rigid system and cannot be different. You find what is rigt for you, not what is in fashion.
You are perhaps a trailblazer in many respects, which can be hard. I think that you are admirable and an inspiration, and you give m hope that I may refashion my life , in my own way.
Love and Happy New Year to a Truly Incredible Person,
Changing
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Janet!!!!!!!!!!! If not by thata porno add we would not have heard of you. How are you? We love you anad miss you. Where you are? How is the weather in Ingalnd? Is is true that Inglish people have the best manners at the table? I am always been very kind of "vulgar" i do nto have another owrd I can use, on table and on everything. Bit I have laways heard that Engish people have the best manners for society in general. What can you say at that?
We Latin are very bad at manners, we interrupt people, we talk loud, constantly use the wrong utensils on the table. made wrong comments, etc. I have a coworker who is English, and I have to bow at her, she has the best discipline in her class, her students are the best behave in the whole school, so, there must be some true in that.
Love to you.
Lupita