Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: tayana on October 25, 2007, 12:21:44 AM
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I had to post this in a separate thread just because I'm still not sure I believe it. I'm stunned. Although it did weaken my resolve to talk to my mother later this week.
I talked to my brother tonight, and he said that my dad finally asked about me today. I hadn't talked to my brother for a couple of days. So I wanted to know what my dad had asked about. That was all normal stuff, just how I was doing and that sort of thing. Then my brother related this story to me.
My mother has never liked for my dad and I to talk. Never. Not when I was young, and most certainly not now. I don't know what she's afraid we'll talk about, but she doesn't like for me to talk to him. Of course, she doesn't like for me to talk to anyone else either, not friends, not my brother, not even my boss, so I wasn't totally surprised at this story. My dad and I always went to a local flea market on Sunday mornings together. It was sort of our thing. I actually really miss doing it, and I'd like to go. Going, however, means that I'm expected to go visit my mom, and I don't want to do that. My dad has still been going, although not as often.
So he went to the flea market last week, and when he got home my mom accused him of meeting me there and talking to me without telling her. Now, I was nowhere near there last week. I was hanging curtains and doing some shopping. When my dad told her I wasn't there, she went into a rage and accused him of lying. She stopped speaking to him for a week, wouldn't sleep in the bed with him, and still believes that I met him up there and he's lying about it.
In other words, she totally fabricated a scenario, convinced herself that it was true, and then blames my dad for lying to her about it. I'm not totally stunned, but I'm still reeling a bit. I decided that I don't need to talk to her later this week. If she believes my dad talked to me when I was even at the flea market, then she'll accuse me of something similar. I do not need that. I'm supposed to be relieving my anxiety and learning to relax, not adding to it.
Anyone else have a delusional N?
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Wow Tay and Bean...this made me want to get right back into writing my book again on Control Artisans. Thanks!
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Once I was playing tennis with my sister's ex husband. They were married at the time. It was a public court.... about 98 degrees in the shade and sevaral miles away from their home.
Anyway.... we were talking and she wasn't at all happy about it.
She left us stranded, without water.... we had to knock on some kind stranger's door and beg for water.
After we were no longer seriously parched...... we had to go back to call a cab.
She was showing us her displeasure..... letting us know how things would go if we didn't stop talking to each other.
No apology..... she felt quite smug and crafty abuot what she'd done.
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That is so sad, Tay.
It's tragic for you and for your father.
I'm really sorry.
One of the greatest angers I had against my mother was her lifelong efforts to prevent me from enjoying an independent relationship with my father. I finally defied that decree, but I was grown. I missed out on a lot from her efforts, though I do have sweet memories. Little things, like a weekly trip to the PO with my Dad when we'd buy fireball candies from a blind seller and make faces at each other in the car on the way home. And when I was little and scared at night, it was my Dad who'd come to comfort me. I used to tell friends, my Dad was my mom.
On the other hand, apart from her jealousy and controlling, I realized in recent years that some of it could have been a primitive unconscious desire to protect me. Her father had sexually abused his daughters, and one day it hit me that on an unconscious level (my Dad would never have dreamed of such a thing)...my mother had an innate need to not leave a daughter alone with a father. I don't know if it's really true, but it allowed me to feel some love for her again.
Your mother is out of her mind. I am so sorry.
Hops
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Dear Tayana,
What I thought when I read it was that it was "good" that it happened now,in a way.You have been feeling' guilty" for NC.You have been wondering what you should do.
I think that this situation will help make your decision easier for you.
Your M might have shown her true colors more b/c you are asserting your independence.(NC for 8 days) She is trying to pull you back even more strongly so she is letting her guard down a little( showing her true colors).
As hard and heartbreaking as it is to see just how bad your M is,I think that it could be a blessing in disguise. Also, it will help make your decision about how much contact M has.
That was my thought as I read it.You are doing so well, Tayana. I am very inspired by you .Love Ami
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(( Tayana ))
Truly very sad for you and your dear Father.
My heart genuinely reaches out to you.
This is not unbelieveable, but rather, quite normal as far as my lifelong experience with my Nmother is concerned.
My Nmother is very scary.
Thankfully, I no longer fear her, and her delusional (and also clever cunning) actions.
Love
Leah
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Tay.... it's too bad you weren't at the antique fair with your father.
Sounds like a great idea to me..... I'm sure that's one reason your Mother went off on it... it makes so much sense.
I wonder how your father's holding up to her abuse, at this point.
I wonder if it occurs to him that it's unfair, nutsey and innapropriate..... or if he's just waiting for it to subside, so he can go back to 'normal.'
I wonder if he'll call you and ask if you want to go to the antique market... since he's already being punished for it........
ask him to bring your winter coats, if he does.
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Lighter, I think my dad just puts his head down and endures. He won't contact me, or ask me to go to the flea market. He's afraid to contact me. And I can understand that. I feel guilty for being angry with him now, because that crazy woman tries to keep me away from him. It's not right.
Leah, thanks. I'm glad I'm not the only one. This isn't the first time she's fabricated something, just the first time it's been so blatantly a lie.
Ami, you are exactly right. I was building up my courage to talk to her, and then I heard that I was just so shocked and stunned. It strengthened my resolve to continue NC. I know M is going to want to see her, eventually, but I just can't. At some point I'll have to talk to her, but not right now. Maybe once I see if I can get my panic attacks, anxiety and everything else under control, then I'll contact her.
Hops, my mother has hinted, though never really admitted that she was sexually abused. I don't know for sure. I know she was physically abused, and I can feel sympathy for that. She's often told me that "I don't know how good I have it because no one beat or raped me." You know, I almost wish someone had. At least then there would some physical thing I could point to and say, you hurt me. Instead she just crushed my spirit. I think its worse. She has these distorted beliefs about sex and love in general, and that's what makes me wonder about sexual abuse. She just makes comments, and her obsession with child molesters in general. I don't know. It still doesn't give her a reason to treat people the way she does. It doesn't give her a reason to fabricate stories and punish people for things that never happened. At some point, she needs to get help. Like I told my brother last night (whose also been in therapy), why are we the ones who go see the mental health professionals. I don't think we're the ones who need it.
Lighter, oh, your sister sounds positively . . . the word I want to use isn't very kind, so I won't. I understand about acting like she'd done something clever though. My mother gets this smirk, and her head kind of wobbles a little and she looks so damned smug. The way she talks about fooling people and the schemes she comes up with, is just sickening.
Bean, normal people think I'm being cruel because I'm not speaking to her. They think I'm the one being petty. That I'm punishing my mother. They don't see things like this. It's awful.
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Tayana,
I think Ami had a great point - this is a sign that you are doing the right thing. I think she is lashing out because she knows she doesn't hold the same control over you.
Yes, my M is delusional as well. Once when I was about twelve, she let me eat a lime from her drink. I had a bad reaction and my face and neck had these horrible brown marks on it. I was so emabarrassed - to go anywhere. I was disfigured, really. So, one day my mother says to my dad, "Do you think it's a hickey?" He was FURIOUS with her. I was 12, lived in the middle of nowhere and had no way to be with any boy or anyone. She did the same thing other times - she thought she saw me smoking once (even though she did - 2 packs a day or so) and screamed at me that she knew what I was doing when I got home from school. I was clueless. She told me she didn't care if I slept with every man in town (I was 13 or so and so much a virgin). She would say people saw me at a bar when she knew where I was. I could go on and on. Crazy, crazy things.
You really sound good, Tay. I know you don't feel it yet, but I can hear so much strength in your postings here.
Love, Beth
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Tayana:
What struck me about your situation was not only how selfish and narcissistic your mother's behavior was, but your dad's reaction to it all. Maybe it's just me and realizing the depth of the damage caused by Nfamily members. But I can't help but wonder in amazement why these non-N dads never, ever stand up to this terrible behavior. It angers me that they do not care enough about their children to want a relationship with their kids, even if it means that relationship has to be separate from the Nmoms and Nwives.
Why it is these non-N dads are so willing to sacrifice lifelong relationships with their childre or friends or anyone else just to continue to enable the damaging behavior of these Ns? I don't get it. At some point, they have to be blamed just as much as the Nparent or spouse who is causing all this hurt.
Why do relationships with their kids mean so little to these non-N parents that they willingly go along with not seeing them or talking to them? I really, really don't get that.
Yes, your mother's behavior is typically narcissistic and damaging. But in my opinion, your dad's behavior is equally damaging because he doesn't stand up for himself or you or make efforts to maintain a dad-daughter relationship. I know because my situation is exactly the same. I suppose in my mind I look at the Nperson as the "sick"one and the non-N as the one who should know better, who can distinguish between right and wrong.
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Beth, my mom has always been delusional to a degree, though not to this point. I remember when I was about 9 or so, and I don't have many clear memories of being a child, I was outside playing with my baton. It wasn't an expensive thing. I think it came from a garage sale in fact. The rubber ends had a tendency to fall off when it was twirled. I was playing by this huge bush in our yard, and threw the baton up, and one of the ends landed in the bush. I couldn't find it. When my mother found out I'd lost the end, she accused me of pulling it off and throwing it away. I got a spanking and was grounded for deliberately destroying my baton. The truth was, the thing had just fallen apart, and I hadn't done anything maliciously.
And my mother did similar things about seeing men. Anytime I wasn't home, then I was out running around with some man. If only she knew right . . . I wanted to go to the gay bar with my roommate in college, but I never got up the guts to do it.
I do feel stronger, and I can see how ridiculous all of this is. Like my brother said last night, when you're a teen and you're afraid to bring someone home, it's somewhat understandable, but when you're in your twenties and you're still afraid to bring someone home, that's pretty ridiculous. The way she's tried to control my life is ridiculous.
Sun, I don't understand it. My father would bend over backwards for my mom, even with all of the stuff she's pulled now. My brother told him that he's only hearing one side of the story, and that he needed to think about that. He told my dad that my mother has called as many as ten times in a day for silly stuff. He told him that she calls at work. She's actually called at work before and gotten mad when I'm not at my desk.
I wish my dad would defy her, and have a relationship with me. I'd really like that. He won't though, he never has.
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Dear Beth Sun and Tayana,
I feel like I am with a group of girls and we are sitting and drinking coffee.Beth and Tayana, when I heard about what your M did with "men" and "sexual" things, there must be s/thing about the N mother and these things. My M used to "gross me out". She still does..
Of all the disgusting things about her, her inappropriate sexual comments were the worst.I know with my kids, kids do not want "too much information" ..It is such a violation. My M would smirk as she said things to me that she knew would upset me.Would yours?
I think that I am getting a gap( as my cop b/f would say). I am seeing the demarcation between her and me a little better.I am seeing that I could have been anyone at all and I would have been treated the same. Somehow,I had a slight shift.I think that forcing myself to nurture myself is helping.I am seeing that her craziness is "over on her side".
It is only a slight shift ,but any shift is big when I was as enmeshed as I have been with her(in my head)
It helps to hear that other people went through the same things with their mother. Mine used to laugh at me for wanting to be a virgin So, I guess that you can't win -either way------ gay,promiscuous or virgin-- --bleh Ami
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I am seeing that I could have been anyone at all and I would have been treated the same.
This is an excellent point, Ami. Thank you.
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Ami:
I couldn't help but smile a little when I read your account regarding your mom and "sexual" conversation. My Nmom couldn't be more opposite. She never, ever, not even once spoke about anything remotely sexual or even relationship-related with me. She never once talking about boys or men or sex or even the "changes" an adolescent girl experiences. I read somewhere that a typical trait of NPDs is their lack of interest in intimacy or sometimes even sex. It doesn't mean they don't have sex, but they don't enjoy that kind of intimacy. Of course, everyone is different but this description fits my mom to a T. I never saw her demonstrate any sign of affection to my dad. She kicked him out of the bedroom long ago claiming he snored and it disturbed her sleep. I'm sure that long before that, she stopped having a sexual relationshp with him. It was probably another way she could punish him. But also, it's obvious she has no need for that.
So, she never discussed with me anything about men or relationships or marriage or children or anything. Perhaps that's one reason I never thought I was capable of having a relationship or that anyone would want a relationship with me. Perhaps that's why I'm alone today. To me, it's both neglectful and unnatural to never have a discussion about any of these things with your children. But if you believe all the latest information about NPD, it makes sense. NPDs see their children only as extensions of themsleves. So, if they don't value intimacy or relationships or sex, they insist the same is true of their children. In my mind, it is truly neglectful. Talking about these things to children as they are growing up should be part of their development, part of their self-esteem building.
I think attitudes about these matters among Ns go in extremes. Either it's a major focus or no focus at all. I do think, though, that even those Ns who focus on sex and relationshps do so for their own selfish reasons. It's what they can get out of their partners, ensuring they will continue to get that N supply, or out of a need to control, that they engage in these relationships. It's not because they feel love for the person or want to have a caring, giving relationship where sex is an expression of that.
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My ex N would fabricate stories, to the point that I thought I was crazy and maybe hadn't seen things the right way. They are so good at fabricating.
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Ami, my mom would never really discuss sex, she would just make an inappropriate joke or comment at times. She never, ever discussed bodily changes, relationships, dating, or birth control with me. In fact her comment when she found out I was pregnant was, "What about all that birth control we talked about?" What talk? We didn't talk. She handed me a book and told me I could ask questions, but when I asked then she was mad that I asked. She considered it inappropriate. My "sex ed" came from books, movies, and my father's porn magazines.
I have never seen her be truly affectionate with my father. She might give him a kiss on the cheek, but that's it. I never saw or heard them having sex. I told him once I was amazed he'd been able to have kids because she was such a prude. I think my dad had more of a healthy sense of physical expression at one time, but I'm sure they haven't actually had a sexual relationship for the last twenty years or longer.
Any time my mother saw me have a healthy expression of sexuality, whether it was a question, or reading erotica or whatever, she would jump down my throat or else tell me stories to keep me from the activity. She actually told me a story about a woman who's batteries corroded in her vibrator . . . well, it was pretty gross. I was just stunned.
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Tayana, IME your M's paranoia is not unusual for an N. Paranoia about other people conspiring against them is common for a control freak. It seems bizarre and incredible and totally delusional when it happens but it seems to go with the N territory. One example, I used to play hearts with a major N ("E") and sometimes when the cards weren't going his way he would suddenly stand up and slam his cards down on the table, fly into a rage and accuse the rest of us of the most incredible conspiracies, including stacking the deck against him and passing notes under the table, all while he was sitting right there! Of course we were doing nothing of the kind, he was just getting lousy cards. He must have gotten extremely anxious and angry as he felt things slipping out of his control and so he invented an explanation (something to blame) in order to regain some sense of control. That's MY theory anyway. We were just flabbergasted. It happened on several different occasions. He is not psychotic. But if you think about it, all Ns are fundamentally delusional, it's part of their everyday makeup.
Bill
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Tayana - That is truly a story from the nuthouse. It is more than bizarre. I am glad for you that you were not at the flea market and can stand back and see how insanely twisted and deranged the whole situation is.
You said, "Bean, normal people think I'm being cruel because I'm not speaking to her. They think I'm the one being petty. That I'm punishing my mother." I have learned, and have seen others here write in many different ways how sad and alienating it is that others simply don't understand. It is not an insignificant problem. As a teenager my friends would role their eyes when I complained and that simply confirmed my greatest fear - that the real problem was me. And so for 30 or 40 years I believed that the real problem in my family and in my life was me. Well it wasn't - my parents did incredibly bizarre things but they were all so subtle.
Well your mother's insanity is not subtle anymore. And if so called "normal" people don't get it I suggest you learn to talk only to people who might understand. Your brother understands. Most people here understand and you may have a few others who understand.
I've never understood why people don't take what we say happens in our families for face value but they don't and it is harmful and painful and alienating.
I am sorry about that terrible experience for you but it is one thing that makes your mother's behavior obviously off the charts.
your friend - GS
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GS, thank you. It's so bizarre, because this is odd even for her. My brother says it's time we got all of it out in the open, and our father needs to decide if he's going to choose my mom or have a relationship with M and me. I don't think he can have it both ways.
Bill, my mother thinks everyone hates her and is out to hurt her. Her behavior is totally irrational and erratic. I wasn't sure if this is an N thing or if she's finally lost it.
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Tayana, I think her behavior is very N-ish, everything you say about her. From the way you describe her she is extremely controlling of everyone and everything and that is what an N is all about, IMO. That defines them better than any other single thing I would say. They need to feel in charge and on top of everything at all times or they lose it. She's seems to be feeling really out of control and scared right now for some reason and her behavior will be completely off the map and paranoid until she feels more secure again. Something triggered it, because it doesn't happen out of the blue for no reason. Whatever it was is probably something that wouldn't even phase YOU, but it's a major deal for her. I'm sure you must know what many of her triggers are by now.
If you can stand it, let her get back in the drivers seat, feel in charge again and she'll start to chill out. Let her have her way in all things. My sister is very much like her. You have to see how deeply insecure she is and how afraid (the last thing she will show however) when she's so wacko. Unfortunately, about the only way to deal with an N that goes off the deep end is to give them everything they want and don't fight with them at all. Easier said than done, esp. when you are probably already completely fed up with her controlling ways. Good luck Tayana, I know what you have to deal with, because I've been there many times with my S. Unfortunately I haven't yet been able to take my own advice (I lose my temper) but I'm getting better. Anyway, that's my advice, use it if it fits.
Bill
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Bill, the reason she is so out of control is because I moved and I've limited the amount of time she can spend with my son. She is very controlling of everyone and everything. She's upset because I let my son go to 5th grade camp, which was a great experience for him, but something she would never approve of. She doesn't believe my son should be outside, playing, getting dirty or any of the things 10 year old boys do.
I don't intend to let her get back in control. I'm tired of this game. I'm tired of being the one who always has to make sacrifices, while she never tries. My mental health suffers too much when I let her in my life. She won't respect any boundaries I set. I say, "don't call me at work." So she'll call four or five times.
I wish things could be different. I really do. Thank you for the advice. Maybe when I talk to my father, things will get better, but I don't think it will.
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I have to respectfully disagree, Bill.
Tayana's heroic journey has been toward 9 days of NO CONTACT.
NOT letting her mother have things her way...
(I do remember reading Vaknin's description of how to have a relationship with an N you still want contact with, and that was a great sardonic description...but I took it as tongue in cheek...)
That's why her NM is cracking. And it's just as it should be.
This is how the universe responds.
Tay, keep it up!
Hops
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Tayana, I understand how totally, completely unfair and unbalanced the situation with your M is, it is the same with all Ns. You hate to give into them because they already take so much and give so little. But for your own sake you have to find a way to manage her so she doesn't damage you anymore. She will always be aggravating no matter what but she will lose her power to upset you in any big way. Much of the solution is to get a handle your own voicelessness issues in general and also the way you're enmeshed with her. She's not respecting your boundaries(or anyone else's!) because you're still ALLOWING her to violate them (inside your own head!--it's how YOU feel--nothing to do with her) and I believe the reason might be (it is for me) is that you get too emotionally wound up (enmeshed) and outraged and angry with the unfairness of it all and you let it get to you personally. You CAN'T take it personally! Number one rule. You get all wound up and tangled up in your own stuff and get upset when you just need to step way back mentally and emotionally from this person.
Getting you (and everyone else) upset is a BIG part of her power trip and her controlling ways! It's like having the remote control to the tv--push a few well-known buttons and off they go! What power! It's pure heaven for an N (or any young child) to manipulate people this way. You have to start thinking of her not as your M, but as the insecure, fearful 3 year old (brat?) that she truly is when she is causing you grief. A strange thing to do with your own parent, but IMO that is the fundamental reality of the situation with any N. Know that you are dealing with a difficult baby, not an adult and you will know what to do and she will not be able to push your buttons anymore. Treat her like the baby she is. That's what I meant by giving her what she wants to calm her down and get her off the psyche ward. Now you're influencing HER behavior, instead of the reverse. It DOES work. The hardest part is shifting your own paradigm. Again, take what you can use, discard what doesn't fit. This is so helpful for ME to talk about these issues and I sincerely hope you gain from it too.
Bill
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Dear Bill,
Your description of the N once again"forces" me to drop my "illusions" about my M. Why do I want to hang on to these illusions?
I think that I figured it out with the help of my dear friend Amber. After the illusions are gone--I am alone.I did not want to face that I was alone.
Her voice in my head kept me from facing this. I wasn't alone when I had her voice in my head. I had her personality traits,too.,like fear and indecision.
Although I didn't like them, they kept me company.I didn't have to be alone and face the world with my own eyes , wits and perception.I had ready made software.
.It was always me, but I hid behind the 'craziness" as a blanket.
I think that Amber's quest for her true self prompted me to shed some of these layers of lies .It is a very freaky feeling.
I am glad that I have all of you to help me go through it . Love, Ami
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I agree with you Hops. The entire object is getting mental and emotional distance from the toxic person so they can't upset you and if the only way you can do that is NC that is necessary and essential. Unmeshing yourself from a toxic person requires a basic grounding in your own voicelessness first and being around an N who WANTS you to be voiceless is the last thing you need when you are fully enmeshed, esp. with the parent who taught you how to be voiceless in the first place!
I also agree that the most likely reason why Tay's M is 'cracking up' is because her controlling ways are not working so well anymore, for whatever reason. That reason could very well be Tays NC stance! But I would also advise not to take the cracking up too seriously. I think it's far more likely to be more desperate manipulation than an incipient psychotic break. Ns just love to be the stars (e.g. tragic victim) in their own self-created dramas! (I think you might be seeing some compassion for Ns seeping out of me at times. They truly are trapped in their house of mirrors and can't find the exit. They are far less likely IMO to find any real peace or real satisfaction in life than us Vs. I'm actually beginning to feel that I've got the better deal).
Bill
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Claro, Bill, claro...
I love your image of the Nparent as a big destructive baby. And you're right. When we do the mind-flip and understand that WE are the adult and THEY are (genuinely...no matter the adult clothes or occupation) an arrested child...it's so much easier.
I value your thoughtful posts.
hugs
Hops
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Hi Tayana:
I'm so sorry to hear about your emotional struggles with your controlling Nmom. I think we all here can identify with those struggles and certainly empathize.
In my opinion, the most important thing would be to protect your child. Unfortunately, unless it is stopped in its tracks by a self-aware person in the family (in your case, it would be you), NPD in families continues from generation to generation. It's one thing to struggle with your own issues with her. That is painful and difficult and ongong. However, I would make sure she is not able to influence your child in the same way she has done with you. Contact the school and make sure your son isn't put in the middle by being forced to take phone calls from your mom or unexpected visits without your specific approval. The last thing you want, I'm sure is to see this cycle of pain and damage to continue with your own son. If your Nmom refuses to listen to you in this regard, you need to be agressive and take the necessary steps to ensure your little one isn't placed in an uncomfortable position. It would also be a way to exert your power of control and boundaries.
Just a thought.
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Ami, I think you have to 'divorce' your mother in some way. Divorce your hope for some kind of reconciliation that isn't possible? When you are able to do this I think your true self will be right there, waiting for you, completely intact. I sense this strongly. Maybe the hangup is the conflict between the love you feel for her (I think you must) and the way she is? Impossible to reconcile and impossible to move on from until you do. I can only relate my own experience and that's how it's been for me. There is a real person trapped deep inside of her which you can see and love, but what comes out instead is someone who is very twisted and does very unloving things and calls into question love itself. Such a person justifiably inspires anger and hate and damages your own ability to love. But that person caught behind the smoke and mirrors is real and so is their love for you, it's just that you'll never ever see them in person because they are lost in the maze. And it's not at all your fault. It's not even her fault. Just something to roll around under your tongue and see if it has any taste.
Bill
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My moms delusions are that she rewrites history. She conveniently forgets what she said, denies that she says it and upsets the apple cart. If you can prove she said it then she simply says she did not mean it. There have been a couple times that I have wanted to jump across her desk and choke her right then and there! My rage has gotten the best of me and I have had at least one snap in my life where the absurdity got me!
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Dear Bill,
Thankful for your astute postings. Most welcome and very much appreciated.
My NMother behaved the same (just the norm!).
Divorcing myself from my NMother has been the best course of action that I have ever taken, as was NO CONTACT and maintaining No Contact.
My emotional and physical health has improved dramatically.
They truly are trapped in their house of mirrors and can't find the exit. They are far less likely IMO to find any real peace or real satisfaction in life than us Vs. I'm actually beginning to feel that I've got the better deal).
Yes, they are trapped souls who can't find peace or any satisfaction in life. And I do feel sorry for them, truly I do (from a distance).
We truly have got the better deal haven't we.
It's not easy Tay.
You are in my thoughts and prayers.
Love
Leah
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Hops, today is 15 days of no contact with my mom. I did talk to my father, but that doesn't really count. He doesn't up set me quite as badly.
Bill, my mother is fond of stunts to get attention. She's "attempted" suicide more than once, basically threatening, but not carrying through. She just wants the attention. So, I don't know how much she's really "cracking up" although a total fabrication like this is somewhat new. I also agree that we, even as hurt as we are, are better off then them. At least we want to recover. They don't see that there's anything wrong.
Sun, I have often worried about M becoming an N, but I don't think he will. He has a hard time controlling his emotions at times, but over all he's a pretty caring person. He can be very empathic, especially with animals. I think that's one of his "autistic traits."
Overcomer, my mother is fond of rewriting history as well. Or else she totally misinterprets things. You know I've been a druggie, cult member, prostitute, and all manner of other unpleasant things . . . at least according to her. She has this idea that I was running around with men all the time when I was in school, so I guess when she made me come back home, she decided she'd watch me so close that I couldn't "run around." Funny, isn't it? She thinks I'm running around with all of these men, when it was the women she needed to worry about. :)
Leah, my anxiety levels have decreased dramatically with NC. I've felt pretty low tonight, but not like I was a few weeks ago when I finally called the doctor because I wasn't coping well at all. Physically, I've lost weight (a blessing because I really needed to), my gastro issues have dramatically declined so that I can just take over the counter medication now. I just have to work on the emotional and psychological issues now.
I'm trying to be good to myself tonight. I really am. I don't feel very relaxed though, and I just want my kid to go to bed. His room looks like something exploded, and he's been very trying all night. He got very angry at me over a box, and we had to have a talk about feelings and how it's okay to be angry, but not okay to tell me he didn't want me to be his mother anymore.
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Hi Tayana,
Your mom is not having some mental breakdown. You hit the nail on the head when you said the problem was you moved out. You're out of her control and she is attempting to restablish it or punishing anyone who might conceivably contact you while you continue to defy her. If you moved back in and said you were truly sorry for trying to prevent her from wrecking your life she would instantly revert to her more placid nuttiness.
Seems to me your problem is not that you have NC but that you don't really have NC. Hearing about her rants and attempted manipulations second hand isn't a whole lot better than experiencing them first hand; she's still manipulating you, only through a third party. Maybe you could tell your brother (and your dad) they are welcome to contact you, but you don't want to hear about the old bat's latest flight of fantasy.
mud
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Bean:
I was wondering how you went about accepting and dealing with losing your other family members because they couldn't meet your request for boundaries? It's one thing for NC with the Nmember which is hard enough, but at least you can see how much damage they cause with continued contact. But it's another to lose the rest of your family.
I'm wondering how do you deal with that----having no real relationships with any member of your biological family? I'm having a hard time with that right now. My sister is N and I haven't had contact with her in a long time. My Nmother and co-dependent dad devote their lives to the Nsister and have disengaged from myself and my "healthy" brother and now my brother for reasons of his own which I don't understand is distancing himself from my parents and me (I have to live with the parents right now for fnancial reasons).
So how did you handle not having any family? Are you able to have any relationship with your siblings or dad...such as at holidays or special occasions?
Just wonderng.
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Dear Bean,
I am so impressed with your story. How long did it take to feel the kind of peace that you do? Did you have to rewrite many,many tapes in your head?
You sound like you "know" who you are and you are not defined by them any more?
Are you an insecure or secure person ---do you think? I know that it sounds like a dumb questiona nd it probably is ,but I would be interested in your answer.
Love Ami
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Mud, Bean, you're right. I've been asking about my parents, and I shouldn't. My brother generally doesn't volunteer information unless I ask for it, but I did ask and he told me about the imagined visit.
I have a hard time imagining life without my family, and I want to have a family so badly. I used to dream that someday, I'd have one of those huge families like on TV where everyone was a little odd sometimes, but usually got along, and at the holidays there were huge celebrations of love and warmth. It's never happened.
It's something I'll have to work on with my T, I suppose. I feel a little like I'm being pulled in a thousand directions all at once, and I'm not sure where I want to go. I don't feel strong enough to maintain my boundaries in the presence of my parents.
I think I can deal with a relationship with my brother, but not my parents.
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I used to dream that someday, I'd have one of those huge families like on TV where everyone was a little odd sometimes, but usually got along, and at the holidays there were huge celebrations of love and warmth.
Blood relations are accidental and sometimes unfortunate.
Our real families are those who freely choose to love and respect us. If we look back we'll regret the harmful family that has abandoned us and it will spoil the present. If we look forward we can anticipate and enjoy the loving family we can build.
mud
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There is oh SOOOOOOOOOOO much I want to say on this thread.
Hops I think: That's why her NM is cracking. And it's just as it should be.
This is how the universe responds.
I have to agree with this. When X hurt someone else after me, I got to see a repeat performance of the "cracking" when victim #2 began pulling away from X as I had finally done. X started talking gibberish, sounding paranoid, saying they weren't able to go on and they felt they had failed people and God and just didn't know which way to turn. Interestingly enough, it was a matter of weaks before the next N supply came along, and all of a sudden X was back on top of the world again, as though they never had any sort of relapse while awaiting the next source of supply. It's just how they are and just what they do. Our job is to not become their SOURCE in the first place.
tayana: I wish things could be different. I really do. Thank you for the advice. Maybe when I talk to my father, things will get better, but I don't think it will.
My opinion...other than a miracle from God, please don't count on that. My guess is that your father, if he still lives with N, has become an enabler to her, doing her bidding and meeting her every whim. He will most likely lean toward her side.
Hops again:
I love your image of the Nparent as a big destructive baby. And you're right. When we do the mind-flip and understand that WE are the adult and THEY are (genuinely...no matter the adult clothes or occupation) an arrested child...it's so much easier.
The main reason N's are N's is because of neglect, abuse or being spoiled as children. They very much are simply babies and children in adult bodies emotionally and socially at times. They have become artful at using manipulation, being people-studiers, even taking psychology classes so they can "read" you very accurately. They are scary at times, bordering on psychopathology or sociopathology. The best thing you can do with a true N, is stay as far away from them as you can, especially since you are now a married adult and have NO NEED to even be talking to this woman, other than an occasional "hi" "bye" Are some of us urging you to DISOWN your own "mother?" If that is the only way you can maintain your own identity and stop being jerked around and coming away feeling less than human, YES!
Overcomer: My moms delusions are that she rewrites history. She conveniently forgets what she said, denies that she says it and upsets the apple cart. If you can prove she said it then she simply says she did not mean it. There have been a couple times that I have wanted to jump across her desk and choke her right then and there!
I have lived this one too. X would tell me that they could totally forget what we shared without a problem, as though it never happened. Hearing them say that, felt CREEPY, as though they seriously could ERASE a part of our history together. I mean, they had ME believing it could be done by them. For those things X didn't want to remember, they would do what Overcomer just said...tell me that I was mistaken, that they didn't mean it, that I misinterpreted it...and, the frightening thing again was, they could twist things that happened in such a way that I was also convinced that it was the way X said it was. Yes, X also would go through this thing of "I can't believe you thought I'd say/do that. I'd NEVER do that to you...all the to, "well, if THAT IS WHAT YOU WANNA BELIEVE, THEN THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO TO CONVINCE YOU OTHERWISE..."all in the same convo. I witnessed this again with the next Nsupply source...same words, same way of weaseling out of admitting the truth. N's repeat history and use similar tactics with each person, cause it works for them.
~RM
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I've thought about the fabrications that Ns do a lot because it's so weird and I've encountered it so many times. Ns are like little kids at the stage before they have developed an identity, which is the point they have been developmentally arrested, it seems clear. There is no sense of a self to reflect back on their own actions so accountability is not even a possibility yet. (Ns never take responsibility for anything they do unless you nail them into a corner they are absolutely unable to get out of). Truth is a meaningless concept because the child has yet to develop the intellectual capacity to comprehend ideas. The only thing that has value at this stage is what works. Anything that brings success is good, anything that causes failure is bad. Truth for it's own sake has zero value. (N's are unabashed at telling lies and esp. at bending the truth just a few degrees out of kilter (harder to get caught or just effing with your brain?). They seem to see nothing morally wrong with lying at all, you just shouldn't get caught at it, but if you do, big deal). High-minded concepts like good and bad, right and wrong, have yet to come into being. (I swear Ns are completely amoral, without a conscience and can act as innocent as a lamb after sabotaging you).
The crazy-making thing, the enraging part, is an ADULT who still operates on this primitive level. N's are intellectually mature adults who can 'act' pretty normally most of the time, but are still emotional 3 year olds and refuse to acknowledge the difference between right and wrong, EVEN THOUGH THEY KNOW IT. I have also 'lost it' and had the same 'homicidal urges' as you overcomer, for the same reasons. What Vaknin(sp?) says about N's ability to imitate and mimic the right behavior is so true (more lying). One of the most irresponsible and unreliable people I ever employed (I have a remodeling business) was an N who was just an absolute paragon of sobriety and maturity on the surface. He kept fooling me over and over again, constantly betraying my trust, because I just couldn't figure out what the deal was. Things that happened just didn't make any sense. Fooling you is what Ns are SOO good at. IMO this capacity for deception wins the prize for being just about the worst thing about Ns.
Bill
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I am so impressed, Bean. Very tough story. Congratulations for coming out whole and happy, it's quite an accomplishment. I've been alienated from what's left of my family (only a brother and a sister) for a long time, but that was almost expected. My parents were alienated from their siblings either partially (F) or completely (M) almost my entire life, so I hardly knew my aunts and uncles or cousins, let alone my nieces and nephews. I never had much sense of a family to lose in the first place. Still it's very sad and regrettable that things turned out this way. I'm trying to get inspired to reform some kind of relationship with my N sister as my emotional act is getting whipped into better shape, but for some reason I keep procrastinating. :?
Bill
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Hmmm....Both my parents were also alienated from their siblings. In both instances, the alienation mostly occurred afer my grandparents died. As such, I did not have contact with aunts, uncles, cousins or other extended relatives.
I wonder if this is a common trait for Ns and their families? They seem to isolate from everyone----no close ties to their own biological families, no close friends or social relationships with colleagues. Growing up in a household like that makes it worse for the children since there is no one outside the dysfunctional family to mirror or see that there is a different way.
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I think you're right, sun blue. I think that's the way it is.
Bill
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Bean -
I read the following and just about fell off my chair - I have been here awhile, but it still amazes me that so many of you really, really know and understant what I have lived through!!!!!
They definetely do not define me, and that is key. It took me this many tries, but I don't see myself as they saw me.
I will never forget the moment I woke up to the fact that I was seeing who I was through their eyes - not mine. IOW - My definition of myself was based on their beliefs - not mine. It was a huge, eye-opening realization. Once I realized this, I was able to stop it in its tracks, and begin to redefine myself based on who I thought I was. Gotta say - life is a lot easier when I view myself through my eyes rather than theirs.
Peace
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I wonder if this is a common trait for Ns and their families? They seem to isolate from everyone----no close ties to their own biological families, no close friends or social relationships with colleagues. Growing up in a household like that makes it worse for the children since there is no one outside the dysfunctional family to mirror or see that there is a different way.
Sun, my parents have never had close friends. If they had friends they always ended up alienating them at some point. My dad had four sisters, but growing up, I never played with any of their kids. I never stayed with any of them. My parents talked very negatively about them all the time. I suppose I should clarify, I remember my mother talking negatively about them all the time.
I was always afraid to have friends over. My brother told me he was never allowed to have friends over. I do remember having a friend over a few times, and afterwards, my mother talked about my friends so badly that I never invited them over again. I never was allowed to go to their houses. The only time I got out was after my friends were able to drive and they came to pick me up.
I was horribly lonely, and I didn't realize how odd it was until I was much older. A few times, my parents made friends with neighbors, and I would like having the neighbors over. Except my mom would get to where she would hide when they knocked on the door. I remember one time, not so long ago, some former neighbors stopped by and I really wanted to see them, but she didn't want them in the house. So she pretended not to be home, then told me she just didn't feel like dealing with people that day.
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Tayana:
Yes, I can definitely relate. My parents had no real friends at all. I don't think they either valued friendships or wanted to be around people they couldn't control. My Nmom worked with a woman for decades and was "friendly" with her in a superficial way. But as soon as the woman retired, she never saw or talked to her again. Not exactly what I'd call a friend.
Growing up, I was very lonely as well. I had a very abusive older Nsister who made it clear from the time I have memory that she wanted nothing to do with me. I had a "healthy" brother who was always gone from the house with his friends. I had no real friends. My Nmom refused to allow us to have friends over since she was afraid they would mess up the house or disturb the neighbors. She, too, would run and hide when a neighbor occasionally would ring the doorbell for a visit. What others thought of her, strangers and neighbors, were just soooo important to her. She wouldn't let us go to neighbors houses at Halloween time or other occasions for fear we would "bother" them. We weren't allowed to play outside by our house very much because, again, it might disturb the neighbors. When we got a new piece of furiture or other item in the house, she made sure to lecture us to make sure we didn't tell anyone what we had. Everything was and is always a secret.
She didn't like us to spend time with friends, especially if it meant she had to make any effort like us drive us there or pick us up. So, I never had any real friends. It was a very lonely childhood.
I remember once I was out of town for a business trip and my aunt (my Nmom's sister) died. I felt very close to my aunt but my mom never called me to tell me she passed away. Instead, she planned and attended the funeral and memorial and didn't tell me until it was all over and I returned home. She knew I would be on the first plane back but she had to "control" everything.
When it comes to friends, neither my Nmom or co-dependent dad ever cultivated friends even though they had opportunities. They were always so secretive with everyone. I've also noticed that Ns have no sense of "fun" or "adventure". My Nmom, for example, never wanted to engage in activities you normally do with children that were just about fun. She has no sense of humor, no hobbies or interests of her own. Although I was involved in a number of activities, she would never attend or take an interest in them. Never even ask me about them. The world and my family revolved around her always.
It was a very isolated and dysfunctional family I lived in. I'm beginning to see how this is a pattern with N families. No wonder I never have had any friends or relationships.....Very painful stuff to realize sometimes.
Thank you for sharing your stories.
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Oh Sun, I can relate so well!
My family was also very isolated and its extremely dysfunctional, although I'm sure anyone looking in from the outside wouldn't realize it. There was never any physical abuse, but there was plenty of emotional and verbal abuse and quite a bit of neglect.
My mother didn't like for me to play outside because I might get my clothes dirty. I always had to have "good" clothes and "everyday" clothes, even though sometimes I didn't get to wear the "good" clothes because she didn't want to mess them up. Everything had to be ironed, including jeans, and it had to be worn a certain way, no matter if it was stylish or not.
With M, he was never allowed to go out and play because of his allergies or because he'd get dirty. He couldn't take toys outside because they might become valuable eventually, and she didn't want him to mess them up. He could never get things out because he was making a mess. Everything had to be put back so so, and nothing was ever arranged so that a child could put things back. We had to keep every box, even if there was no room for the boxes.
She complained about the few friends I had. One of my friends was very overweight, and so I was all the time hearing how I shouldn't be around her because I wouldn't get dates. I wasn't really interested in dating, although I wanted to be like everyone else. I felt very different and isolated. I always blamed it on my maturity level, but I'm starting to realize that I just didn't really know how to interact with other people because I'd been kept isolated. I still have problems related to other people, especially in new situations.
I was involved in a lot of activities in school, and she complained when I had to get up early for band, complained about having to shuttle me back and forth to school. The only reason she let me ride with my friend later on was because she didn't want to have to drive me. She was very concerned about her job at that point, and that's what really mattered to her. I could never get M involved in things because she complained if she had to take him, or if she had to drive a few miles to take him to an activity. I wanted to get him involved in scouts, something that the neuropsych who diagnosed his autism recommended for social skills, but she went on and on about the scouts molesting boys and how awful that was, that I finally stopped saying anything. I think M is too old and has missed too much now to join.
Anytime I wanted to try something new, like a sport (I ran track for a year), she complained about the expense. She would let me do it, but she would complain about it.
She would show up at my concerts and act really proud, and then we'd get home and she'd criticize what she'd seen.
She has no hobbies or interests of her own, unless TV counts. She says it's because her eyes are so bad, but I don't really believe that. She just uses her health as an excuse. She could still get involved with something, but if she has to leave the house, she doesn't want to do it.
She's very concerned with what people think, like cooking a huge meal when my brother visits and complaining that anyone suggests ordering pizza. She always says, he won't want pizza. he wants something homecooked. Everything has to be perfect and just so.
And secrets . . . I can't believe the secrets. "Don't tell your father" or "don't tell your mother." My father even now, "We just won't say anything about this." I get so tired of all the secrets.
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In one certain scenario, the x served as a surrogate parent for the younger sibling. The family seemed to have some sort of connection with other relatives, but the main inner circle was centered around immediate family...mother/father/siblings/children of X's. I did hear X mention their relatives once in while, but you are right...there didn't seem to be family picnics or real close ties to them. The only real closeness i noticed was the x's and a church group, which seemed to be the main focus during x's childhoods anyway. They all seemed very reluctant to welcome many people into their private lives, with GOOD reason.
I have noticed that for many dysfunctional people, it is easier for X's to open up with online relationships with people, yet, often when they finally do meet those people in person, the tend to be shocked, devalue and punish them, discard them and then replace them with the next unblessed victim. It's just what they do, cause, as Dr Phil would say "somewhere along the line, this behavior earned some payoff of some kind."
With me, I think x's were stunned that the payoff did not come as they were used to. That shocked them into deciding I was an enemy and worthy of being targeted for destruction of, at least my individual identity. Do I think or believe x's did this CONSCIOUSLY? NOT ON YER LIFE! These people sincerely believed that they were doing what was for "my own good." I will give them at least that much. Subconsciously, the whistle blowers must be SILENCED...they know TOO MUCH and if they TELL, what will become of our fantasy world? right?...
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Through the years my nm has manipulated and controlled our family. My father, a dedicated family man, has gradually become her total possession.
Working on myself and letting go of the old family system, I have become a threat to her manipulation and control of the family. So I am no longer a part of the family. As if I do not exist.
On rare occasions that I am around my nm and father, he is kind, gentle and we have our moments of shared concern. nm has to control what he says, when he says it and corrects every move he makes.
Of course she has a facade of sweet, little, gentle, helpless older woman and she uses it to hide her real self, that I know very well.
She is finished with me -- I do not react to her at all.
I miss my father and pray for him and know that I have to let them go. It's bigger than me. My 2 sisters are still swirling in all the sickness and have shut me out. I can't live in 2 worlds so I live in mine and leave them to theirs. It was very painful at first but I have worked through it and the pain is gone. I am married to a man with her identical behaviors and that is another angle on my story.
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Dear Friend,
I so agree with you. There ARE two worlds. They are so opposite that you are FORCED to chose. If you chose their world, you have to be "crazy" too or else you will leave. I HATE that life is like this. I HATE it,but it is how it is.
I never wanted to face reality. I was "sick" b/c I would not face it. You are doing very,very well.
Love Ami
((((((((((((((((betr4)))))))))))))))))))))
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BR, you have just described my father's relationship with my mother. She has total control over him to the point that he does everything she says without question, including repeating her words to me. As much as I want to have a relationship with him, I can see it's not going to happen, because he'd never choose to defy my mother's wishes.
Looking back over my move, I think this split has been coming for a while now. My mother didn't pull any stunts when I moved, and for a little while seemed pretty accepting of the whole thing. So, it's been building off an on, now she finally pulls her stunt, claiming that I'm keeping her away from my son. It's not true. I've actually gone out of my way to keep her in my son's life, but that is her story now.
My father has bought into it as well, and I'm just tired of being treated like a pawn and having my son used as a bargaining chip.
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Btr4, Congratulations on your recovery from your poisonous family. I know it had to be a very long, fearful, painful process and now that you are on the other side of it you know you did the right thing. I think living with a toxic situation is like eating a little arsenic with your breakfast cereal every morning. You never feel well and it accumulates over time and it truly effects you no matter how good an attitude you try to keep. I visited my 'adopted family' (the walking/social group that's been my whole life almost for the last 10 years) last weekend and while I thought I had found some distance from this situation all the old crap came back just as if I had never left.
The difference was that as I begin to feel poorly again just being around some of these people I could see the negative effect they had on me, the way my whole outlook darkened and soured and my view of myself became negative and 'not me' anymore. It was an eye-opener. When you are completely enveloped in it you don't even see it. Last week when I was talking about Tayana's M and suggesting that she could be 'managed' I was feeling that I could manage my situation with the right attitude, strength and emotional distance but I think that a toxic situation/person is so insidious that it creeps under your skin and your defenses and before you know it you are sick again. You just can't have poison in your diet and be healthy!! I also suddenly realized that one of my old 'friends,' someone I used to spend a lot of time with and someone who has repeatedly been toxic to me, is also an N! Why is that a surprise? She is not full-blown NPD but N enough to be bad for me and it's clear now that she's 'history' as far as I'm concerned. As I become healthier and the poisons clear from my system I can see that I make better decisions and judgments.
Bill
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Lyrics
Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to arise.
Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these sunken eyes and learn to see
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to be free.
Blackbird fly Blackbird fly
Into the light of the dark black night.
Blackbird fly Blackbird fly
Into the light of the dark black night.
Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to arise
You were only waiting for this moment to arise
You were only waiting for this moment to arise.
Blackbird, by John Lennon and Paul McCartney
I keep hearing this song run through my head over and over reading these posts. For those of yuo who grew up in dysfunctional families, abusive FOOs, the dead of night was yuor childhood.
Learning to see and learning to fly is learning to live without the confusion and belief in ohter peoples toxic realities, forced on yu when you were small.
Tyana you are fixing your broken wings and learning to fly, leanring to see, when you parent your son better than you were parented.
Just wanted to say, to all of you overcoming FOO trauma, you are incredible beings and youll overcome,
because you seek to.
Flying into the dark black night is still flying, though it's scary and unfamiliar. It's better than not flying at all, I think youll agree?