Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: reallyME on October 27, 2007, 04:57:02 PM
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Sure, we've said it over and over again on this board to those of you who still insist that you have to stay in extreme abuse situations...we have URGED you to have NO CONTACT with people who are crazymakers and manipulators and controllers, but I'm a person who seeks my answers from the Bible, so I want to share with you that even GOD doesn't expect you to stay in the abuse nor have contact with the abuser.
Following are some verses from the book of Proverbs and some other scriptures, that will hopefully make this clearer to whomever is in these situations, especially because of choosing to remain there (providing you have a way out)
Proverbs 28 v 12 AND 28 (wonder WHY it's repeated 2 x): "When the wicked arise, men HIDE THEMSELVES."
For those who keep going back to the N : Proverbs 26 v 11 "As a dog returns to his own vomit, so a fool repeats his folly" (keep going back, expecting DIFFERENT RESULTS? I don't think so. NOT wisdom, unless N is starting to admit to fault and going through therapy)
Prov 24 v 22: "Do not associate with those given to change." (borderline tendencies, unstable people, hippocrisy)
Proverbs 22 v 3: "A prudent man forsees evil and hides himself."
Proverbs 22 v 5: "Thorns and snares are in the way of the persverse. He who GUARDS HIS SOUL will be FAR FROM THEM."
For those who think it's better to stay in the familiar than leave the abuse: Proverbs 22 v 13 "The lazy man says, 'there is a lion outside! I shall be slain in the streets."
Proverbs 20 v 19: "DO NOT ASSOCIATE with one who flatters with his lips'' (all those lovely gifts from N, compliments)
Proverbs 17 v 19: "He who loves transgression loves strife." (so WHY are you defending your right to stay with N?)
Proverbs 16 v 6: "By the fear of the Lord (trust, honor of God), one DEPARTS FROM EVIL."
Proverbs 16 v 17: "The highway of the upright is to DEPART FROM EVIL."
Proverbs 14 v 7: GO FROM THE PRESENCE of a foolish man, When you do not perceive in him the lips of knowledge."
Proverbs 14 v 16: A wise man FEARS AND DEPARTS FROM EVIL."
Proverbs 4 v 27 "REMOVE YOUR FOOT FROM EVIL."
Proverbs 4 v 14: "DO NOT ENTER the path of the wicked, And DO NOT WALK in the way of evil. AVOID IT, DO NOT TRAVEL on it. TURN AWAY FROM IT AND PASS ON." (how much CLEARER do we need it to be?)
Proverbs 3 v 7: "Do not be wise in your own eyes; FEAR (honor) THE LORD AND DEPART FROM EVIL."
Ecclesiastes 10 v 11: "A serpent may bite when it is not charmed; The babbler is no different."
AND THERE ARE MANY MORE WHERE THESE COME FROM...Even looking up the word "FLEE" in the Bible, will tell you what you need to do. Remember, if you are in a situation where you can NOT get out, you need to find a way to mentally/emotionally DETATCH your emotions from the circumstances and the words being blasted at you by N. If you CAN get out, please DO. If you are married, STOP VISITING THE ABUSERS OF YOUR LIFE unless you absolutely NEED to. Other than Biblically wise, it just plain makes SENSE to remove yourself from the thing that is causing you grief. Right?
~Laura
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I ask this with hesitancy...I'm wondering if anyone even READ this post I put here, because I really expected more of a reaction or response which it got...NONE. I guess, whether I read the Bible or not, I think I'd have really been given something to think about at least...something that made me go "ohhhhhhhhhhh. The BIBLE says all that?"
Mind you, I'm not upset because I couldnt' control your reactions. I realize you all, as do I, post to the threads that interest us. I am just wondering why at least 2 of my threads have gotten no comment. Wondering if they were even seen, thought about, or whatever. Feeling somewhat brushed off here.
~Laura
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Dear Laura,
Sometimes my posts get no comment.also. I really like this thread . Thank you for posting it. Love Ami
(((((((((((((((((((((((Laura)))))))))))))))))))))
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Hey Ami
I always sensed a comraderie feeling with you, and I now know why. You are a rescuer like me. I had a feeling that when you read my post on this, you'd be the FIRST to respond and I was right. Ever the rescuer, just like I am. So glad to have met one of my kind.
Blessya, girl
~Laura
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I don't know if a rescuer is good-lol but I very much appreciate you, Laura.I remember how badly I felt when you were thinking of leaving.It would not be the same without you. Love Ami(fire chief)
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I read it RM hon...
didn't know what to say because for me the Bible isn't revealed truth.
But it was powerful, and beautiful, and your effort moves me.
You always try to help and I can always feel your passion for it.
love you,
Hops
[on edit: Actually, many things in the Bible ARE revealed truth for me. What I meant is that it is not my penultimate source. For me "revelation is unsealed".]
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Hello ReallyMe,
Proverbs contains so much wisdom in each and every verse.
There is something in the book of Proverbs to help in every aspect of life.
You mentioned on an earlier thread that you would like to publish a book and asked if anyone could signpost.
Well, I have been looking for you and I have found on http://www.christianwomenonline.net/Allison_Bottke.htm#AllisonOctober (http://www.christianwomenonline.net/Allison_Bottke.htm#AllisonOctober)
an advertisement entitled 'Empowering Writers to Self Publish' and the link directs to www.artbookbindery.com (http://www.artbookbindery.com)
Interesting and informative site with 'How to Publish a Book' and 'Marketing your Book' using their book publishing or not.
Have only taken a brief glimpse --- but it may be a start in the right direction?!
All the best with your endeavours.
Love, Leah
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WOW LEAH! THANKS!
Hops, what does that mean, "revelation is unsealed?"
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Dear Laura,
For me, every word and every promise of God is so precious.It is what makes my life have any meaning.
I want to share s/thing that I just heard on a CD from Andrew Wommack. He was talking about Norman Cousins,who was an M.D.
Cousins treated patients for various diseases with allopathic medicine(regular medicine). However, when Cousins got a bad disease, he decided not to go that route. He took the Scripture, 'A Merry Heart doeth good like a medicine. He went to a hotel for 2 months with funny tapes to watch(3 stooges etc). After this time, he was cured and lived 30(or 40 ) years more.
So, even that small proverb could be taken like a "medicine" and heal you.I think that this story is a beautiful and powerful story. Every word in the Bible is precious to me Love Ami
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Every word in the Bible is precious to me Love Ami
The quote at the foot of my daily inspiration booklet reads;
~ The Bible is God's Prescription for the Health of our Soul ~
Love to all,
Leah
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Hi RM,
For a UU, it means that revelation is always unfolding, changing. That's why UUs use multiple scriptures from multiple faiths, and other writings that aren't scripture at all.
hugs
Hops
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well, in some ways, you and I are not very different Hops. Although I can't full espouse to your belief system, I will tell you that there are some quotes from non-Christian sources that I enjoy as well. Kahlil Gilbran has some beautiful poetic messages and well as inpirational info by Wayne Dyer.
I am considered to be an "ecclectic" Christian by many people who know me.
I do believe that the Bible is the Absolute, however, which is why I chose it to share from in my other thread and here.
Blessya
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Laura,
The verses you post make a lot of sense, however, I am torn between those proverbs verses and then there is the 5th commandment (honor thy father and mother) and Ephesians (children obey your parents for this is right).
My Nmum loves to quote the 5th commandment. If i do not do her way, then i am disobeying God. In her mind, God put her on this earth to channel His wishes (like the Pope) and it is my DUTY to obey her at all costs and at any price. B/c she is "god's instrument" she has no accountability (except for God who she is certain she is 100% in good standing with).
Also, she does not ever have to apologize to me for anything - EVER - (does god apologize?) Everything she ever does, she finds a bible verse to justify what she is doing. She has even used the proverbs verses you quoted to justify giving me the silent treatment and shunning her grandchildren (the sins of the mother - aka. me, pass onto my children.... if i am evil then they are also evil).
The bottom line is i still feel guilt and wonder if God is happy with my going no contact with my mother. I KNOW the stuff she does to me is evil and she is stubborn and full of pride (things God hates), but at the same time, she is my mother and children are commanded to HONOR their parents.
How can i honor her, when i have cut her from my life? (Actually, she cut me off but i have NOT gone crawling back anymore since my operation)
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IsabellaRose,
Please take a look at this amazing website, which gives very clear responses to the questions you are asking yourself:
http://www.luke173ministries.org/templates/System/default.asp?id=39548
Janet
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Every word in the Bible is precious to me Love Ami
The quote at the foot of my daily inspiration booklet reads;
~ The Bible is God's Prescription for the Health of our Soul ~
Love to all,
Leah
Agreed -- the bible is precious to me! I savor every word!!
Hi Laura,
I read your post and found it interesting. I think that a lack of response from others to our posts at times can push N buttons in us. I know for me that I tend to use negatives to fill in the blanks. I've learned to listen to my intuition.
Lise
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Good afternoon, Isabella.
I was so thrilled to see that you posted to me, as I was hoping you hadn't decided to leave us. I have really learned a lot here and grown from the insights and input and prayers of these delightful board friends. I believe your input is just as important and precious to others, so thank you for addressing my thread.
I will try to give my personal views on what you shared, below, one at a time. I pray that you find some good stuff inside what I say and that maybe it will help you as you seek that balance in the current relationship with your mother.
The verses you post make a lot of sense, however, I am torn between those proverbs verses and then there is the 5th commandment (honor thy father and mother) and Ephesians (children obey your parents for this is right).
I am so glad you pointed this out. I think the discrepancy comes in the word "children." Personally, although we are the offspring of our parents, are we technically still their "children" to guide, direct, "boss around" etc? I don't believe so. I believe the balance comes in from the Bible verse "then shall a man leave his mother and a woman cleave to her husband." I think there is a break-off point between adult children and their parents. There is a point where we are to LEAVE that parental covering, and, hopefully come under the covering of our spouse or possibly just under God's covering or a mentor's.
When a young child is being abused, however, I believe that the break-off point must and should come earlier and the child should be transplanted into a loving, nurturing environment instead. In such a case, I'd say that the Bible tells us that a good man is even kind to his ANIMALS, and that Jesus notices even when 1 sparrow falls from the nest. Nobody can convince me that it has been, is or ever will be God's plan for someone, especially a child, to live under abuse and oppression, when Jesus Himself, died to set His people FREE from the yoke of bondage.
My Nmum loves to quote the 5th commandment. If i do not do her way, then i am disobeying God. In her mind, God put her on this earth to channel His wishes (like the Pope) and it is my DUTY to obey her at all costs and at any price. B/c she is "god's instrument" she has no accountability (except for God who she is certain she is 100% in good standing with).
Gosh, Isabella...I could SO RELATE to what you said here. X felt it was her job to point people in the exact direction of their destiny too. She believed that it was her DUTY, her MANDATE, her ASSIGNMENT, and, anyone she took under her wing, MUST go in that direction...problem was, she also switched the direction as you were heading there, so you were left with a no-win situation every time. Happily, eventually she came to realize it wasn't her job to be Holy Spirit. She was one who also felt she needed no accountability. Having a direct relationship with God was all she needed, in her eyes, yet expected others to be accountable to her, even if overtly. Although I definitely am pro-mentoring, I believe it works best if that mentor is accountable to another human representative in good standing with the Lord as well. It does make me feel much safer when that is the case.
By the way, the verse for that would be where Paul told his followers to not "seek to be teachers for teachers have the greater accountability" (soooooooooo, is your mother absolved from answering to God? NOPE...she is MORE REQUIRED TO, even just based on her position as a family leader (if that's what she still wants to throw at you now)
Also, she does not ever have to apologize to me for anything - EVER - (does god apologize?) Everything she ever does, she finds a bible verse to justify what she is doing. She has even used the proverbs verses you quoted to justify giving me the silent treatment and shunning her grandchildren (the sins of the mother - aka. me, pass onto my children.... if i am evil then they are also evil).
I think God RELENTS, but His will and plan is always perfect, so no, I don't think He apologizes, but there were times in the Bible where He showed regret.
As far as your mom using the very proverbs I quoted, to justify her ignoring you and shunning your children, here is another you can use with her "should a mother abandon her children or forget her sucklings? even if she does, I will take you back up." (said by the Lord Himself, so do you think HE approves of her silent treatment? I don't think so)
The bottom line is i still feel guilt and wonder if God is happy with my going no contact with my mother. I KNOW the stuff she does to me is evil and she is stubborn and full of pride (things God hates), but at the same time, she is my mother and children are commanded to HONOR their parents.
Ok, let me try and offer another strategy here. If you do not have peace about ANYTHING, Isabella, do not do it. If having no contact with your mother, just plain feels ICK to you, then perhaps setting boundaries would be a better idea. There is no ironclad law that says you must AVOID your mother at all costs. In fact, since that has been one of her weapons used on you and your children, perhaps you feel that you are stooping to her low level, by using it with her in a form. Why not maybe decide what is ACCEPTABLE with her and UNACCEPTABLE, and let her know that if she crosses the line of UNACCEPTABLE, you will be putting some time and space between you all. That is just one of many things you might try with her. It's hard with a true narcissist, I know. Nothing seems to phase them, other than being sure that they remain on Top and you remain UNDER THEIR FEET. But again, the Bible says that 'satan" is the ONLY one meant to be underfoot, NOT YOU...YOU, ISABELLA, GOD CALLS "HEAD AND NOT THE TAIL. ABOVE AND NOT BENEATH!"
How can i honor her, when i have cut her from my life? (Actually, she cut me off but i have NOT gone crawling back anymore since my operation)
Perhaps, if you feel safe doing so, and if you choose not to remain N/C with your mother, you could give her a short phone call, jot her a letter or something. Just keep your guard up if you opt for contact w/boundaries vs N/C
For what it was worth, those are my answers to your questions. Hope it helps some or at least gives someone something to consider :)
Blessya, Isabella and again, thanks so much for not leaving and still talking with me.
~Laura
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Hi Isabella,
I believe you can honor the heart of that passage by being grateful to your parents for the gift of life. And by proxy, extend that gratitude to the universe by living a life of joy.
Which would require no contact with your birth parents (although you feel gratitude to them for your existence).
Honor does not mean "have contact with", imo.
hugs
Hops
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Re: Honor your Father and Mother
Both my parents manipulated this commandment for their own purpose and advantage .....
But, look at what the truth reads in Ephesians 6:2-4
There is another verse that follows 'Honor your Father and Mother'
"Honor your father and mother, that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth.
Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the nurture and instruction of the Lord.
Love, Leah
The truth truly does set you free.
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Re: Honor your Father and Mother
Both my parents manipulated this commandment for their own purpose and advantage .....
But, look at what the truth reads in Ephesians 6:2-4
There is another verse that follows 'Honor your Father and Mother'
"Honor your father and mother, that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth.
It is my understanding, and belief, that we are to bring honor to our father and mother as the one's who gave birth and life --- in the way
in which we live our lives, with virtue.
My Sister has four children three are under the age of 10. She works full time as a teacher and cooks dinner for her husband. For quite a few years our Nmom was trying to push her way into my sisters life and play the adoring grandma role but what she wanted was to be the adored grandma. My sister in her attempt to "honor" her mother let our mom enjoy visits with the kids and would stay in contact with her despite the fact that my mom was not respecting my sisters limits with the kids and with her. Also, my N mom was criticizing my sister's parenting behind her back and was becoming a "demanding grandma."
My sister went to speak with a priest because she was feeling guilty over her need to cut off contact with our mom for the sake of her sanity. And that is exactly want the priest recommended she do. The priest told my sister that her first obligation is to her children and to her husband and if contact with our mom causing her stress and interfering with her family then God would be OK with her cutting our mom off from contact in an attempt to take better care of her family.
Lise
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How can i honor her, when i have cut her from my life? (Actually, she cut me off but i have NOT gone crawling back anymore since my operation)
I don't think God intended mentally ill parents to e honored, at all costs.
Esp if if they're doing it under the guise of God's instrument. Esp if they're damaging innocents and causing trauma.
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I relate to this thread so much! My parents became Christians in their early 20s And how my mom especially turned Gods saving grace and love into a set of rules and regulations to manipulate my bro and I into submission is a mystery to me. I think it became a tool to help represent our family as perfect. My bro abandoned the faith because who wants a punitive religion when you can have freedom without? I chose to stay after much research and figured out they had it so wrong! God is love.
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God knew that not all parents would be 'fathers' and 'mothers' to their children
10 When my father and my mother forsake me,
Then the LORD will take care of me.
11 Teach me Your way, O LORD,
And lead me in a smooth path, because of my enemies.
12 Do not deliver me to the will of my adversaries;
For false witnesses have risen against me,
And such as breathe out violence.
13 I would have lost heart, unless I had believed
That I would see the goodness of the LORD
In the land of the living.
14 Wait on the LORD;
Be of good courage,
And He shall strengthen your heart;
Wait, I say, on the LORD!
Psalm 27:10-14 NASV
Love, Leah
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Hi Leah-
Your post was the sermon at church last Sunday. It was emphasized how when everyone disappointed, a person would turn to their parents knowing that they would be cared for no matter what. The idea that parents would forsake someone is desolate and tragic in the extreme, yet in his extremity man (and Amazon) can turn to God.
I think most of us in this board have been pushed to extremity due to being "forsaken" by one or both parents, and that may be why it can be so difficult for others to understand how hard it can be, and how wonderful and healing it is to be understood and supported!
Love,
Changing