Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: claris on May 24, 2004, 08:50:49 PM
-
I have been wrestling with the problem of distinguishing whether the N behavior that my mother displays is partly cultural (not psychological). (i say partly b/c lots of it can't be explained by culture i think)
When I read descriptions of Nists, my mother seems textbook. But although I recognized many unhealthy behavior patterns before, I often explained them away by attributing it to "culture". (she's chinese) For example, control over children (inlcuding adult children), materialism and status-consciousness, different value system, problems of communication (also attributable to language). These things are typical of Ns, but could also correlate culturally/linguistically.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
p.s. Please don't flame me for being anti-chinese. Couldn't be farther from the truth.
-
I don't think you're anti-Chinese. And I bet some of your mom's behavior can be attributed to cultural factors. How much of it is, is what you might want to think about.
bunny
-
It is unfortunate that we have to be careful of political correctness in much of what we say. It inhibits speaking freely in our society.
But that is another matter.
I lived in Asia for a long time, so I can recognize the aspects about which you wrote. In order to understand your situation, please let us know a bit more. Your mother is Chinese, but what about you? Is your father also Chinese? Was Chinese spoken in your home? Do you speak it?
I think that many things that Chinese often highly value, like materialism and its relationship to status, and also how children should relate to their parents and follow their wishes, can be viewed as somewhat "N." But much of this depends on how much you identify with the culture also.
-
thanks for the replies.
my mom is chinese, but i was born and raised here. my american biological father bailed out before i remember, so i only got 'nature' from him, not 'nurture'. my mom ruled the household, so my stepfather also didn't give me much cultural influence i think. didn't speak chinese at home, but i do speak basic chinese learned in school and have traveled a lot and lived for a couple of years in asia. also have a lot of asian friends. i'd say i do appreciate very much and identify with chinese culture, but i am american primarily.
i think the issue of culture complicates the issue. i read that Ns are materialistic, power-seeking, status-conscious - i used to think this cultural, but isn't that a bit insulting to chinese culture? Ns expect people around them, especially their children, to obey them, to respect them, to be suitably grateful and not to complain or criticize. my mother is like this - is this just her being chinese?
the things that make me lean toward thinking she's an N are her violent temper, tantrums, obliviousness to other people's feelings, selfishness, inability to accept any criticism, physical aggression, inability to see any one else's point of view. her inability to sustain any healthy relationships (i can't think of even one close friend that she has - she only has more casual friendships based on my stepfather's relationships) things that i don't associate with chinese culture.
i wonder if perhaps she, because of cultural reasons, is more prone to Nism? if so, does that mean i should be more forgiving? should i tolerate more?
thanks for your thoughts on this.
claris
-
Hiya Claris, I'm sure you're going to get a few replies on this:
if so, does that mean i should be more forgiving? should i tolerate more?
She's your mother! If anyone does any forgiving and tolerating, it's, in the natural biological order, supposed to be her, not you. I think this has nothing to do with culture and everything to do with you having a disturbed mother.
You don't have to do anything that you think you are obliged to do by society, culture or anything else. You do what feels right for you. Forget the 'shoulds'....best wishes P
-
i think the issue of culture complicates the issue. i read that Ns are materialistic, power-seeking, status-conscious - i used to think this cultural, but isn't that a bit insulting to chinese culture? Ns expect people around them, especially their children, to obey them, to respect them, to be suitably grateful and not to complain or criticize. my mother is like this - is this just her being chinese?
I think most cultures are materialistic, power-seeking and status conscious. Your mother may be exploiting societal acceptance of cultural traits to the maximum, and she even goes over the top.
i wonder if perhaps she, because of cultural reasons, is more prone to Nism? if so, does that mean i should be more forgiving? should i tolerate more?
I would be honest with myself about what parts of her behavior can be attributed to cultural expectations, and what parts of her behavior are idiosyncratic.
bunny
-
I do not think you need to keep being careful about political correctness. There are many places where cultures can collide. Despite using what some consider reason, being open, "talking it out," etc., these barriers sometimes simply cannot be overcome. Despite what Bunny says, cultures differ VASTLY in materialism, and with status- and power-seeking.
In your case, it seems to be beyond cultural issues, but these are probably exacerbating the situation.
The one key issue is her inability to sustain healthy relationships. If you think that culture may be an issue, then look at the relationships she has within her culture. They do not sound healthy.
-
hi Claris,
I have very often wonderd about this too. I am a Sri Lnkan but haved lived in three different cultural backgrounds namely Srilankan, Indian ( most of my life ) and now British.
I was brought up the Sri Lankan way perhaps but my 'running away' instict has somehow made be run away and look at culture from an outside point of view too perhaps and this has given me many insights.
To put it bluntly ( without meaning to offend any culture even if it is mine and I still consider it mine and am proud of it unconditionally ) I will have to say that our culture certainly is N friendly. The cultural dictionary teaches :
'Love' is.. to take care of others especially parents even at your own cost. The culture gives sanction to even publicise and celebrate this through films, books etc
Sacrificing your life for parents sake or for the sake of your h/w is 'martyredom' and is celebrated as being the ideal 'son' 'husband' etc
'Therapy' is something amusing which a doctor does to get money away from a 'stupid rich woman' in the western world where there is no family value. Any hey this is not the 'voices' from my dad and my abusive family, but the general consenting voices in certain if not major part of society as such
'Abuse' is a disease in the western world where people are so selfish and don't have fmaily values
It goes on and on..
I can assure you ( from experience ) that the average educational institute, doctor, won't provide any help agains't this 'cultural' wall that too it is unthinkable outside cetain big cities. There is no such thing as therapy. Culture runs society, not laws. Cultural laws are strict and have to be adhered to. Culture in other words holds ''power".
Having said that.. still I would NOT believe that culture is pathologically Narcisistic. Families and individuals somehow find their own 'loopholes' in cultural law to be themselves where culture simply LIES. It is like growing up gay in a straight world or vice versa ( again no offense meant to anyone ) It is only families which are equally abusive that take refuge in this 'culture' and make it even stronger.
I wish some of these 'culturally proud' people stop seeing post modernism as a western threat to 'our culture'. For me 'my culture' would be the way I am. I do find myself culturally voiceless sometimes when I live in the Western world, but hey it is not pathologic or I don't feel threatened and find a need to shun out the rest of the world and concentrate on my culture alone. I have applied to go to therapy and have cut off relationship with my parents ( again socially not acceptable ) but who cares as long as I am heeling !
Does this mean I have come out of 'culture' ? cos I am doing things contrary to popular cultural view ? My answer would be no. Cos I am my culture and I am proud of it
About forgiving parents cos thier action are sanctionrd by culture ? I would strictly say NO. If you do that then you would be also validating the 'abusiv'e nature of that culture isnt it and making it even stronger ? For me fighting against it by being honest to yourself ( and being honest about your mom in your mind ) and not forgiving her selfishness would also means showing a bit of social and cultural consciousness in a way
Spirit
-
Hi Claris -- Many children of immigrant parents clash with their parents because the parents still observe the values of the culture they left, while the children have grown up in Western culture. So even if your mother were not an N, which I think she clearly is, you would likely have had disagreements with her. Why not try focusing on setting some basic rules for her -- she cannot insult or criticize your H, she cannot yell and scream on the phone, etc. and work on enforcing those. I see those behaviors as unacceptable no matter what her cultural background, and also see them as necessary to show your H that you respect him, which is basic to a happy marriage. What you want is for her to deal with you in a civil manner.
Wanting to control her children may have its roots in her culture, but you obviously wouldn't be happy obeying her the way she would like you to, so you're going to have to work out a different relationship. And if she is materialistic and status-conscious, you're never going to change her, so why worry about why she is that way?
Down the line you'll probably have to make decisions about her relationship with your children, but you can think about that later. First things first.
Morgan
-
Yes, Spirit, I agree wholeheartedly that culture is what really holds power. Even if a person decides to go to therapy, the way that it is looked upon and used is interpreted by culture.
It has to be incredibly difficult when a person is forced to choose between two or more cultures, but this happens often, not only between generations but also when moving to a new country.
I noticed the people who post here are constantly vigilant about not being misinterpreted as being "culturally insensitive" or seeming to be "prejudice." Very, very American. And probably British. I have lived in other cultures and do not notice this constant paranoia.
Years ago, I met an Asian lady (I am a white American), and we were considering marriage. Her father finally spoke to me in private. He said, "I was very much against this at first. However, I thought about my own life and realized that I went against my own parents. They wanted me to stay nearby and marry in a certain way. I left, went to the big city and became successful. My daughter is the same as I am." He definitely was NOT an N parent. If the person has love for their children, they will understand, even if they are hurt. If not, they can go to h...
-
I think there are definitely cultural bearings on narcissistic behaviour, and I don't think it's inappropriate to comment positively so long as we recognise that many people will live outside their cultural norm and not uniformly stereotype.
-
Write,
Culture is more deeply ingrained than you may recognize yourself. Spirit obviously recognizes that. Keep in mind that because people point out certain features or characteristics that are pervasive in a culture, it does not mean that they are not recognizing differences. Ignoring these patterns can lead to more misunderstanding than the proclivity to add a PC touch to everything.
-
Culture is more deeply ingrained than you may recognize yourself. Spirit obviously recognizes that. Keep in mind that because people point out certain features or characteristics that are pervasive in a culture, it does not mean that they are not recognizing differences. Ignoring these patterns can lead to more misunderstanding than the proclivity to add a PC touch to everything.
sorry, don't understand what you're saying Tokyojim?
I certainly acknowledge the cultural differences contributing to narcissism ( you only have to look at the US position on Iraq for example! )
However, aren't we just contributing to another kind of 'voicelessness' if we decide to stereotype people by race?
There's a reason ( and in my book a necessity ) for 'pc' as you call it.
-
Write,
There is another type of "voicelessness" created when people become afraid to say anything that can be interpreted as stereotyping any group of people. When I read the posts in which people are qualifying virtually anything that they say about cultural tendencies, I see a kind of voicelessness created by the societal pressures of PC. People are afraid of saying anything that can be interpreted by the PCers as bias, prejudice, stereotyping, etc. Scary!
-
I would like to see "PC" gone and replaced by another concept that has been around for many, many generations - Manners
-
I deleted the original post I wrote about narcissism and culture because I realised
1. I was over-generalising ( I hadn't met more than a handful of people from the cultures I was writing about )
and 2. when I read it back it was offensive and could easily have been (mis)interpreted as racism.
It's not that I am afraid to speak my mind, but particularly here- no. People come here to feel understood and accepted and I would hate to take that from anyone by making assumptions or being tactless.
I think it's fine for people to talk about their own cultural experiences and I can take something from that.
-
Do you have a garden? Have you ever noticed that the weeds seem to grow strongest right next to a plant?? This is because they hide behind the plant while they are small, and you can't see that they are there, until all of a sudden, there is this foot high weed staring you in the face.
I have also tried the cultural approach to justifying my parents' behaviour, because they are from a background, with its own strong value systems which would be similar in many ways to those of a collective (ie non individualistic) society such as in China. They both come from small coal mining villages, where the tradition is mutual support, very highly defined sexual roles and a very conservative approach to change.
If you then plant an N family in this kind of culture, and compare it with the culture outside the family system, there are differences, but like with the weed, it can look the same as the plant next to it for a long time.
Collective cultures focus on benefitting everyone, which is a good theory. The downside is loss of individuality and privacy. The upside is that when you need help and support, there it is. Everyone supports those who are weakest.
If you look at N behaviours, they are very happy with the loss of individuality bit, and buy that one very happily - for you. But you find that where the help and support bit comes in, is where they leave by the back door as rapidly as they can. :lol:
The N version of collective culture works as long as you are the supplier and they are the ones in need. If you ever try to change that, you will find that they can't do it. However much you need love and support, you will still owe them, and they will still be looking for you to supply their needs.
Look at your Chinese friends, and your extended family. Do their mothers behave as yours does?? That may help you to see that this is not a cultural problem.
Cathy
(Quote edited, because original post changed. Didn't want to leave bits that you preferred omitted. xx)
-
Cathy, thank you for posting, your posts are great
Thanks. :oops:
Not as confident as I sometimes sound.
(((((Hugs)))))
Cathy
-
(((((((((Cathy)))))))))
You sound very knowledgeable. I keep learning. And your insights are helping. And I can hear you now :D I wonder why you were quiet before? Perhaps there wasn't enough space, room, quietness on the board before. I like it now. I hope you do too. It is great to hear you. Now I hope you don't feel embarrassed, because I mean it and you're okay. Now that's enough from me, I'm embarrassing myself! :roll: Pull myself together. I'm genuinely happy to hear you, that's all. :D P
Edit in P.S. Claris, sorry for hijacking your thread like this, I hope you'll come back to us...
Cathy, I’ve been reading old posts and you sound good now. Your post about shame was fantastic. (Yeah, what do I know? I know about some stuff but I didn’t know about that!) Did you attend the winter-time event? I know that’s a prying question so I’m sorry if I’m out of order here. But I wondered and if you want to talk about it or not. And now I know what Rob meant when he mentioned witchcraft recently. Yeah - you should put ‘evil old witch’ on her tombstone, but you’ll have to bury her in unconsecrated ground!
On the shame theme, that’s what that woman did to our group on page 1 here, shamed us all with her superior, very PC attitude. She was just using PCness to be superior and as with most things, intention is everything I guess. Oh and I hope I didn’t upset anyone here by using that phrase because I didn’t intend to... :roll: P
-
Look at your Chinese friends, and your extended family. Do their mothers behave as yours does?? That may help you to see that this is not a cultural problem.
Agreed Cathy. My neighbours are not N, my friends parents are not N and I have met and worked with people from more deprived background, even with people who can't read or write, and imo they are not N
But my Dad is !
What gets me is how much cultural protection he gets ! That has to go ! I have been to see doctors in India for depression issues.. they never bothered to help me. I was very pressurised when I was in my teens.. I had compulsive behaviour which was getting awkward. My parents even though they knew it very well supressed it and kept it under cover. My teachers knew it in school, how did they help ? My relatives knew my Dad is abusive and my mom is a walking zombie, did any one of them come out to help me ?
Why ? It is culturally wrong ! and I will hate it cos I am a victim of the system. Oh yes people do 'care' for others and it looks like 'collective responsibility' in such cultures but that is not the case. 'Care' is to make me fit in and deny all forms of 'deviation' and my anxieties, my tense relationship with my parents etc were ' cultural deviation' and hence it was me who was asked to compromise myself for the sake of society.
Things are changing though and I am doing something constructive for a change, hopefully more and more people will be doing the same ( but in their own known ways and beliefs ).. wish they would come out more and break that abusive jinx !
spirit
-
They both come from small coal mining villages, where the tradition is mutual support, very highly defined sexual roles and a very conservative approach to change.
I have a Canadian friend and we have shared experiences of growing up in mining villages ( I am English ) and decided that the coal dust is formative!
-
What gets me is how much cultural protection he gets !
Why ? It is culturally wrong ! and I will hate it cos I am a victim of the system. Oh yes people do 'care' for others and it looks like 'collective responsibility' in such cultures but that is not the case. 'Care' is to make me fit in and deny all forms of 'deviation' and my anxieties, my tense relationship with my parents etc were ' cultural deviation' and hence it was me who was asked to compromise myself for the sake of society.
spirit
The cultural protection is the big plant protecting the weed. The plant can't see the difference; you have to look really close to see the bliddy great dandelion next to the rose or thistle or whatever the culture happens to be. I think collective cultures have a lot to offer, but it is a shame when they cannot see the harm which some families do to their members, and then hide under the cultural label.
I think we need to find a balance between the extremes of collective and individual cultures, and we need to listen to those who are caught in one or other and cannot cope. And an abusive family will always abuse, but the abuse will look slightly different, depending on what is around. It will try to blend in as far as possible, but will never quite manage to be invisible.
As long as you have a spirit of your own, you cannot deny your own identity and become a puppet for your family. That would deny your humanity, and you cannot do that. You can try, but it will break out.
All the best, and I love your name, Spirit.
Cathy
-
I have a Canadian friend and we have shared experiences of growing up in mining villages ( I am English ) and decided that the coal dust is formative!
::Nods:: I think it gets in their heads, and muddles their thinking. LOL!!!
Also English. From Durham, although I live in the South now. Where are you from??????
Cathy
-
(((((((((Cathy)))))))))
You sound very knowledgeable. I keep learning. And your insights are helping.
Cathy, I’ve been reading old posts and you sound good now. Your post about shame was fantastic. Did you attend the winter-time event? I know that’s a prying question so I’m sorry if I’m out of order here. But I wondered and if you want to talk about it or not.
Good grief!!!! Can't remember what I wrote before. Perhaps I should check!!!! :lol: The winter time event? That must be my mum's birthday. Yes, we went. Horrible time. Some of it ok, but mostly horrible. Couldn't undress the whole time. Slept in my clothes and changed in the morning. Not safe. Lots of anger. Several major episodes between my brother and his sons. Not nice. However, we live to tell the tale ...
You can ask anything you like, Portia. Questions are allowed, and I will answer anything I am comfortable with. So no worries there.
((((((((hugs))))))))
Cathy
-
Stoke-on-trent, Staffordshire.
I have walked ( the Great North Walk ) and travelled around Durham- awesome scenery.
-
Concerning culture, it seems that when conflicts arise, much is really the struggle the person is having with one foot in each of two cultures. I read the posts again, and it seems that the actual language is "western," for lack of a better word. The new concepts of individuality are really western, and, once the thinking process has begun, it is there - permanently. It is not a cause of the problem, but a part of it. It is almost as though the "ignorance is bliss" idea has been removed. When one gets exposed to another culture that is in conflict with the one of one's parents or surrounding society, conflict is inevitable.
It is unfortunate, but it requires making a choice and/or compromise. I think that "faking it" in one culture works. Better still, one can think of it as "adapting."
I received one piece of advice in relation to my brother and the severely dysfunctional lifestyle and family that he set up. Rather than letting it get to me by my feeling a sense of needing to belong or be similar, he said to observe it and try to understand why I did not wind up like that. Do not fully take part, but look at them as an anthropologist would, without judgment, but only trying to understand. It was a bit difficult at first, but it worked!