Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Confounded on October 30, 2007, 03:32:45 PM
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If anybody understands this, I would really appreciate your help.
One of the things I understand about Nish behavior is that the N type seeks to have a positive image of himself reflected back to him from others. Given that, I find this to be very odd...
My Nish H sometimes deliberately says perfectly absurd things, just to "get a squalk out of _____ (me, the kids, etc.)." In addition, he sometimes says things that are accidentally absurd. Between the two types of foolish comments, the aggregate is quite a large amount of time and effort listening to it, trying to figure out if he's serious, responding, and generally spinning one's wheels.
Accidentally absurd: We're having problems finding a good dry cleaner (one that doesn't ruin our cloths). His absurd solution, "I think that we need to stop wearing dry clean only cloths." We work in offices. He just bought new suits, etc. That idea is N/A. But I am forced to listen to it, and respond in some way. It's a waste of time. Thus, it makes him look out of touch with reality and/or stupid.
Deliberately absurd: I have a green business idea. Green burial, in a recyled cardboard box, in a forest, with a promise NOT to maintain the grave, plant a tree to feed off of one's uncreamated, unembalmed remains. His absurd response, "I know what the problem is with that idea." (I'm already bracing for the absurd.) He says, "If you were buried that way, you would be locking yourself into being reincarnated as a tree." I am stunned by the foolishness of it. I say, "Well since reincarnation is about the soul, and not the body one leaves behind, that's N/A." Days later, he insists that it was a joke. I advise him that saying something idiotic is not the same thing as making a joke. In fact, if you go around saying idiotic things accidentally, and then add to that the deliberately idiotic remarks, then it's just a huge waste of time, not funny (unless he wants to be laughed at - N's hate that). Whether it's deliberately or accidental idiotic, either way it's bad.
Here's the crux of the question. He does these things, which evoke a negative responses from me, and then he GETS ANGRY. Variously I tell him that he's acting ridiculous, annoying me, wasting time, giving me migraines (I have to take an Rx for this), boring me, and ultimately I say that he's an idiot.
I don't think that I have enough training in this to understand WHY he does this. On the one hand, I wonder if he's setting up a situation in which he can ultimately get mad. On the other hand, I wonder if his understanding of what a joke is about could be so limited that he can't see that aggravating other people is not the same thing as telling a joke. Jokes make other people laugh. Just because it amuses him doesn't qualify it as a joke. This is more of a prank. It seems to be the functional equivalent of a little boy pulling a little girl's pigtails.
Sorry if this is terribly obvious, but are Nish types commonly arrested in their development of such understanding of normal behavior? Deliberately annoying people seems like the last thing someone would do if they wanted others to admire them and tell them how wonderful they are.
I know, expecting this thinking to be logical isn't going to help me understand this. I just don't get it. Thanks for any help you may have.
Also, if you are familiar with this, what is recommended? I want to minimize this kind of behavior through my own actions or lack thereof.
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I think the thing with N's is that they really don't think that highly of themselves, even though they act as though they do. My mother has said any manner of absurd things to me.
I've found the most effect way to deal with her absurd comments is to say nothing, or else to say something very noncommittal. "I'll think about it and let you know." I used that line one of the last times I spoke to her, and it made her incredibly angry. They like to push buttons so the key is to be able to deal with them without emotion.
I'm not there yet, so right now, I just prefer to stay No Contact with my N.
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Hi Confounded...
I had a different reaction, I thought his comment was funny.
I delight in the absurd, which can be often misconstrued as idiotic.
Any chance he was trying to be witty?
Hops
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Deliberately annoying behvior is often a subtle means of control and testing I think.
Perhaps, to him, when you call his idiocies idiocies you are resisting his control and failing his test of how compliant you should be, so he gets ticked off.
I believe they often say absurd things intentionally just to see if the other person will pliantly accept it, thereby demonstrating the Ns control, or if the other will call a spade a spade, which is a red flag to him that he needs to do a little work to get the other back into line.
It's a subtle gauge; they avoid provoking a full blown confrontation but can measure the other's submission or lack thereof.
I believe it is very hard to overestimate the subtlety and signals that go on with their minds. I suspect a good deal of it is not even conscious.
mud
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Confounded: "I know what the problem is with that idea." (I'm already bracing for the absurd.) He says, "If you were buried that way, you would be locking yourself into being reincarnated as a tree."
Ok, first of all, I'm not personally into the whole "green theme" thingy, but if he said something like this to me, here is how I would respond, using my new techniques:
"I'm sorry you feel there is a problem with my idea."
The trick is, he wants you to respond to the presupposition of his insult toward your beliefs. Don't bite the BAIT. The bait is the insult, basically saying you are stupid for thinking how you do.
Respond only to the idea OPPOSITE of the metamessage/insult.
It works. I do it with N daughter all the time and we really don't have many fights anymore. If you don't react, they run out of arrows soon enough.
Blessya,
~Laura
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When I was with XN I remember he would say things which were so weird that I just would not respond. I asked him once about his marriage when he was young, why he married his wife, his answer "because her sister went to an expensive private school???????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He would come up with stuff like this regularily, things that made absolutly no sense whatsoever. He would make comments about my friends who were "lesbian social workers" I do not have a friend who is a lesbian or a social worker. I used to challenge him on stuff like this but realised that I may as well be speaking chinese. He would just blurt out statements that made no sense.
Why? Who cares. It's just how they are, crazy with no anchor in reality. Breathing a huge sigh of relief that I am not listening to that crap any longer
axa
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Hi Confounded,
I believe it is very hard to overestimate the subtlety and signals that go on with their minds. I suspect a good deal of it is not even conscious.
Imagine any interaction with a narcissist (even those that appear on the surface to be perfectly sane). Then repeat as many times as it takes to learn the truth in Mud's statement. Sharing the same air with a narcissist is not for the unwary. :(
tt
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Someone here who is an MD or psychologist please correct me if I'm wrong here, but last I looked there is a type of schizophrenia which I call "iirelevant". I think the correct medical term for it is "hebephrenic" or something like that. The point is that the person is almost always "irrelevant" - their talk is off topic, their comments usually absurd and not related to anything, their solutions to problems off the chart of logical. I have known others who act this way intentionally to create an excuse to get angry. Just my experience.
Kate
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Someone here who is an MD or psychologist please correct me if I'm wrong here, but last I looked there is a type of schizophrenia which I call "iirelevant". I think the correct medical term for it is "hebephrenic" or something like that. The point is that the person is almost always "irrelevant" - their talk is off topic, their comments usually absurd and not related to anything, their solutions to problems off the chart of logical. I have known others who act this way intentionally to create an excuse to get angry. Just my experience.
Kate
I'll have to look through my DSM about this but this doesn't ring any bells off the top of my head.
Bones
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I looked in my DSM-IV and I think it's been re-categorized as "disorganized type". In my family therapy training, the trainer renamed it "irrelevant" as simply a more practical term. She had 4 classifications for types of (dysfunctional) communication, of which irrelevant was one. That's where I got that term. It was all a long time ago, so I'm not surprised the terminolgy has changed.
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http://counsellingresource.com/distress/schizophrenia/icd/hebephrenic.html
The thing that jumped out at me about this, is the self-satisfied, self-absorbed smiling.
That is my husband to a tee...when I'm hollering, telling him how upset I am, he always has this smirk on his face. I have even grabbed a mirror and SHOWN him how SMUG he looks. His reply is "so? so? who CARES about how my face looks! Why do you gotta ANALYZE EVERYTHING! You want me to look DEPRESSED all the time?"
He responds the same way if I tell him that I didn't appreciate his TONE when he says something. He will say "Don't worry about my tone. Just listen to what I'm saying! Forget about the tone!"
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Deliberately annoying behvior is often a subtle means of control and testing I think.
Perhaps, to him, when you call his idiocies idiocies you are resisting his control and failing his test of how compliant you should be, so he gets ticked off.
I believe they often say absurd things intentionally just to see if the other person will pliantly accept it, thereby demonstrating the Ns control, or if the other will call a spade a spade, which is a red flag to him that he needs to do a little work to get the other back into line.
It's a subtle gauge; they avoid provoking a full blown confrontation but can measure the other's submission or lack thereof.
I believe it is very hard to overestimate the subtlety and signals that go on with their minds. I suspect a good deal of it is not even conscious.
mud
Believe me, it is controlling behaviour - very subtle
And I never realised it at all.
Would wonder why the smirky grin sometimes accompanied the absurd behavioural comments.
And as for business ideas ........ if the idea was mine ......... lid slammed tight on it ...... or simply laughed off as 'silly'
Love,
Leah
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Point taken...
uggh.
Hops
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The remark about locking into being reincarnated as a tree was delivered in a completely serious tone of voice. In hindsight, I can see that it might have made an amusing joke, if it had been delivered with a little twinkle in the eye, a smile, a wink, some hint that it wasn't another one of his heartfelt yet clueless comments. The delivery is key. His perfectly serious delivery made it seem like an idiotic remark, not a joke.
That's actually part of the weirdness in this. He comes off as the idiot, and I get shoved into the position of being the superior, smug one. "Well, since reincarnation is about the soul, and not the body that one leaves behind, that's not applicable." I often follow with something like, "Is that all you've got?" He seems to want me to tell him he's an idiot, and I do. I tell him that if he believes that, then he's an idiot, and if he doesn't believe it, and says it just to be annoying, then he's still an idiot. He does this sort of thing all the time. Then he gets mad about my thinking that he's an idiot.
I want no part of this. I just want an intelligent response. It's a business concept. We're both MBA's. I come from a family of MBA's, where we kick around ideas, just for the fun of it. I'm just want him to engage and give me his serious response, which he often does. Actually, a little bit of subsequent research revealed that others have already put this concept into play, here in the real world. Good for them. I'm betting that their family members had something intelligent to add.
As I struggle to figure out how to modify my own behavior, in order to get out of this loop, I read your replies with great interest and appreciation. Although part of me would like to believe that maybe the serious delivery was just an accident, a joke delivered poorly, I can't really believe that. No, the prior comments to me about "getting a squawk out of the kids" make me think that he annoys me deliberately as well.
Okay, given that there is good reason to believe that this is deliberate behavior, intended to annoy, I'm back to "WHY?" You mention the N's controlling, testing, subtly checking one's level of compliance, with the thought process being essentially unconscious. This rings true. Sad, but true.
It seems that he is really threatened on a very fundamental level by me, and that translates to anger inside his head. I guess this means that he has chronic anger toward me, which would explain his quick flashpoint. I often hear anger in his voice very shortly after we begin a conversation, especially of we are working together on something. Sorry if this is very obvious about these situations.
I note that many of you agree on the need to avoid these people. I agree with this. His mother advised me to ignore him, as she did his dad. However, I find that I can't stand having to listen to his endless complaints, red herrings (a.k.a. "jokes"), genuine foolishness, etc. If I avoid him, I won't have to listen to it. Plus, I find that once I avoid him for awhile, his behavior becomes much more pleasant.
Frankly, this is pretty strange for me. I have previously determined that H's late first wife used the cold bed routine to manage his behavior. I mentioned H's late wife's use of the cold bed in a phone conversation with my MIL. MIL's blunt reply was startling. She said, "Works for me." You know, now that I think of it, my stepmother used get really cooool when she had any issue with my dad. He says they never argued. But I know she could be very chilly.
Ignoring people, avoiding my own H, and the cold bed routine don't come naturally to me. But recently I find that sometimes I get very tired of dealing with him, and I want nothing to do with him.
I think that I may want to be ready with a diversion when I'm talking with him. That way, if he says something that I want to nip in the bud, I can just switch to another activity. Nothing personal. Maybe I need to go to the restroom, or go check on something, or make a phone call. If I keep other things in mind to jump to when he says things that are foolish, I can avoid the rest of the conversation. Minimize the wasted time and we (or at least I) will be much happier.
Thank you all. Sometimes I feel sort of stunned by all of this.
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I am totally baffled about both of you. I can't understand what you are trying to say in your post, I don't comprehend what you call humor or red herrings either, but maybe the fact that you are both MBAs and from a family of them explains why this is way over my head. I don't think on that high of a plain intellectually. Even the show "Dirty Sexy Money" is confounding to me.
I will just observe your posts from here on.
~Laura
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Confounded,
You sound as though you're maybe feeling the shock of having bumped into some deep incompatibility.
There's little ease and flow between you...so all these strategies are needed so you won't be eternally angry, but they leave you eternally on edge.
Is that an approximation?
I am very sorry you're living with such tension.
Have you thought about some counseling, getting some help with communication?
hugs
Hops
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Confounded,
What you write about is scaringly familiar to me. XN was extremely clever intellectually but what I came to realise was that he just did not get conversation or discussion. I like to discuss issues be they personal or otherwise. I enjoy hearing disenting voices, others opinions, having dialogue and either affirming my own thinking or changing my perspective........... there was no way XN could enter into this form of dialogue. Well, why would he he was always right. He just did not get it! If I had a differing opinion he would get so mad he would use sarcasm or off the wall statements to frustrate me and I think this was a big part of the game: frustration. For all his intellect and letters after his name he was at a human level a deeply boring person to be around. I told him this once and the shock nearly knocked him for six, how could the omnipotent one be boring but he just was. In the end I gave up trying to have conversations with him and put my energy into people who were adult enough to have respectful discussions. I guess this is not too helpful but it brought back many frustrating memories for me.
Axa
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Thank you all. It's hard for me to make sense of it too. I find myself searching for one phrase that I can carry with me, like a shield.
another one that just jumps out at me is that Ns like to confuse, baffle, shock...anything to draw some attention to themselves
I think they get a weird rush or sense of power from making people feel off-kilter
Your experiences are VERY helpful to me. I am getting a definite feel for his need to destabilize me. He can't dominate me as he did his first wife. But he can upset me. "A sense of power from making people feel off-kilter." The control. He wants that more than he wants the admiration. Plus, I think he knows that the admiration will not be forthcoming. That must sting like crazy. Okay. I get it. Aggravating people is a way to control them.
You sound as though you're maybe feeling the shock of having bumped into some deep incompatibility.
There's little ease and flow between you...so all these strategies are needed so you won't be eternally angry, but they leave you eternally on edge.
Is that an approximation?
I am very sorry you're living with such tension.
Have you thought about some counseling, getting some help with communication?
I often feel my heart racing. I just want to keep him at arm's length and not get hurt anymore. If I'm not at all depressed, I really notice it and I'm soooo thankful. When we have periods of happiness now, I rarely get away from the feeling that his anger and my pain will be back, it's just a matter of time. It feels as if knowing that tinges my happiness, and yet I feel that if I forget it I am setting myself up to fall farther. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me 2,876 times, what the h*ll is my problem?
I dread working on projects with him. If we plan to work together on something, I will wake up that morning feeling completely stressed. It will be endless disagreement. I want to be done ASAP and get it 90% to 100% right. He just wants to be done, right, wrong or otherwise. Quality? Who cares. He says I'm "anal" "don't have my priorities straight" "need a correction" "move at a glacial pace" - it goes on and on. We waste so much time, we could have been done much sooner.
On a fundamental level, and on a fairly frequent basis, I just don't like him. His complaining about doing projects around the house, his picky eating (eats only meat, refined starch, fat, and very basic salad and fruit), his foolish statements (however they are motivated), his childish rage, and lack of appreciation for the life of the mind, all result in a growing feeling of disquietude within me. He seems as if he's pretending to be a man. His hair is graying. But inside he seems to be very childish. That's NOT manly, and it's NOT sexy.
We have been to three counselors. Sometimes the last two counselors looked at him as if they were thinking, "Are you SERIOUS?!?" (One even said it once.) With counseling and court-ordered anger management classes he did get much better at controlling his anger. He still rages over seemingly little things (sometimes he is so easily angered that it's actually sort of funny). But even though he rages, he knows that he'd better not lay a finger on me, and he doesn't. I guess I should be happy about this wonderful progress. But mainly I find myself feeling that accepting his marriage proposal after 5 weeks of dating on the assumption that he understood me was the worst assumption I ever made, and wondering if eHarmony would have worked better for me (we met on Match.com).
I am so bored, so disappointed, so tired of this, and so sad. Spending more of my time with others is a help. I usually work out of my home, and that's terrible for me. Sometimes I wonder if a radical change in other aspects of my life would make a big enough difference. I constantly hear from other women that their husbands or their marriages are just awful. Perhaps this is just par for the course. My Grandmother used to say, "If you get rid of one man, and get another man, you just trade one set of problems for another set of problems."
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Hi Confounded-
When I read your posts on this thread I get a stomach churning sense of familiarity. My NH also has a disturbed, almost addled aspect when he is engaged in torturing me. Once he brought the police to my home on a false pretext, and just watched impassively from across the street. The next day he popped by and cheerily gabbed about finally finding a cell phone that worked, with this disgusting smile and wide faux innocent eyes- totally incongruous and quite creepy! When I asked him to leave and mentioned what had occurred the day before he said that yesterday is over- we won't talk of that again, etc. This is a very educated and supposedly intelligent man. I think he returned to my house for much the same reason that arsonists and serial killers return to the scene of their crimes- to relive the high, get a whiff of the victim, the power of violating and controlling another. When I think about NH Bagworm I am anxious for my freedom now this instant-I hate the waiting period for divorce!!!!
Keep hanging in there Confounded!
Love and Peace,
changing
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Confounded,
It is very sad when you start to take off the rose tinted glasses and begin to see the truth. I guess I would suggest you start to think/write about what is good in the relationship and what is not. Think back to the person you were before or when he just met you, what's changed. You sound like you are guarded and on alert all the time......... this is how I lived also. I know you will find the best way for you but having left xn a year ago my one regret is that I did not leave him sooner.
The more aware I became of his Nism the worse he got. It became like a game. I deeply, deeply regret not getting out sooner, like I had to see how bad he would become before I could leave. The people I engage with now are like the people I used to know before XN. They are respectful, adult, interesting, not abusive. None of them have met XN but I know they would be shocked that I was with someone so horrible. I guess what I am saying is that I lost my way when I got sucked into the madness of XN and his games but now that I am back in the real world it feels so much better.
axa
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Confounded, I think axa gave you good advice...in fact, here, I'll start ya
out...
axa: Think back to the person you were before or when he just met you, what's changed.
In my case, X was a she. Before I met her, I was very into singing worship at church, helping people become free from evil spirits (deliverance and inner healing)...I was happy, bold, courageous, felt very good about life and people for the most part.
X taught me to believe that my voice was not as good as some other people, taught me to be more self-conscious in a bad way, told me to stop doing deliverance ministry because she didn't do it the way I did, taught me that people who had mental and emotional problems were not worth her/my time, and were just there to drain me.
Currently, I am not actively doing the deliverance and inner healng ministry, find it very hard to want to sing or play my keyboard anymore, am not quite so bold as I was, pretty much try to not tangle with people, except one on one. I picked up a very critical spirit toward people who can't spell, don't use proper grammar, have emotional and mental issues...in short, the very people I used to MINISTER TO, I now have very big RESTENTMENT issues with, no thanks to involvement with X.
I also had a friend which X "stole" from me and then later did the same things to her...she went through a time thinking she couldn't sing, didnt' know how to minister, was bad at everything. Because I had gone through it before her, I knew the signs, and was able to help her overcome the self-condemnation it caused her. (I still miss this friend a lot, but we've parted now)
Ok, Confounded...your turn if you choose...who were you before/during/after X
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Dear Confounded-
Work on yourself, take especial good care of yourself, and in the meantime calmly meditate on the NH issues. Get your own position fortified (of course do not anounce this to your NH) - as you become stronger and in a better position, calmer and more centered, your "gut" as Ami says, will be a great freind and advisor as to your next indictaed step!
Love,
Changing
Changing
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Thank you.
My life seems to be slipping by, and I worry that I will get to the end and regret my choices. I was given so much, yet I have never really been happy on an ongoing basis. My N mom taught me nothing about how to deal with difficult people. She and now H shock me, hook me, and I respond. Sometimes I am hurt, as an adult more often an angry b*tch, like her.
Once I got away from my N mom, eventually, I learned that I could serve in the role of The Brain, and that gave me a reason to be. I felt good about myself largely because of my work. I think that my choice to become a realtor failed utterly to take into account my need to work in an office and have positive long-term relationships with coworkers. I work alone now, mainly from home, and given my situation with my Nish H, it's not good for me. When I do go into my office, it's not the same as working within a company. My colleagues are also my competition. There's little teamwork. It's every person for him or her self.
This puts my fragile marriage under even more pressure. I guess that I should cut myself some slack. When I decided to become a realtor, H hadn't been diagnosed yet. The term "narcissistic tendencies" meant nothing to me. In July of 2006, NH decided to stop going to our 2nd counselor. I went to our appointment alone and asked "What IS this? This inability to ever admit a mistake, even when it's obvious?" The counselor laid it on me. "He has narcissistic tendencies." I had to be told what that was all about. The counselor stressed the fact that narcissistic rage was very dangerous. I know that he thought I should leave H. H's anger is only emotionally dangerous now, and less so all the time, as I pull away from the fire emotionally. Observing him when he's angry, I am stunned by his lack of dignity. I feel sorry for him.
Sometimes I think that even though this is hard and sometimes painful, H is exactly the right person for me, because he is forcing me to learn and mature in areas that should have been completed long before now. I have to lead our family, and if I lead in the wrong direction, that's where we go. I said something to H recently about God putting us together for our personal growth. H said, "No. If God had wanted us to be together, He would have given me a remote control for your mouth." I actually felt as if he had stabbed me in the heart. But really they're just words, and borne of the fact that H sees no reason for any personal growth on his part. That's part of the diagnosis. I need to keep my own counsel. It is an unpleasant but real fact that H will never be able to be a true confidant to me. There will always be a barrier between us, and any lapse on my part into thinking that it can be otherwise is just a pipe dream.
H has told me a hundred times not to listen to what he says, and not to be hurt by his statements. I have stopped having any serious arguments with him. I'm not going to argue with somebody who doesn't remember what he has said a large percentage of the time, and recants what he says, with the explanation that he didn't mean it, he was just mad, another large percentage of the time. He is not a serious person when he's agitated, and he gets agitated soooo easily. It's actually pretty funny sometimes, although watching my husband act like a lunatic isn't exactly my most preferred activity. (Bummer...)
Suddenly, I feel so much older. I just hope that I can keep this level of perspective. I am not diversified enough in my personal and work contacts. It's just too much Nish stuff and too little good stuff. I have to get another job. I sent out one resume recently, and 12 hours later I was asked to come in and interview for a very good job. But the location wasn't what I need. Point is, I was in demand. Sometimes I feel reluctant to reach out to the world, and pour myself into a job search. In part, I feel slightly weakened by H's endless criticism. But I also feel that I don't want to get a high paying job because that's what H wants from me. So I would hurt myself to deny him what he demands? This is not good.
Must stay centered, stay focused, be active, not reactive. Must not allow myself to be pulled off-kilter. Must stop this cycle. My life is my own. I want to stay in my own Zen space. I'm a can do person. I can do this.
Thank you all for your help. Be happy. The world can be a crazy place, but we don't have to let the craziness in. We can filter out the bad. The light of God's love shines on us, and we can reflect that light to others. Love and peace to you all.
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Confounded: I went to our appointment alone and asked "What IS this? This inability to ever admit a mistake, even when it's obvious?" The counselor laid it on me. "He has narcissistic tendencies."
I experienced this again this morning with my H.
He tends to stop on green lights, sit there a few seconds and then drives. When I say to him "the light is green, why are you stopping?" his response is always to give me a reason why he does it. He can never just accept that what he does is WRONG, STRANGE, STUPID, or whatever.
So, his response is "oh. I was waiting for that semi to turn." (semi is car-lengths ahead of us), or "I was pumping the brakes" (pumping required repeated pressure, not pedal to the medal on the brake) or "I didn't stop on the green light..." "YES YOU DID" "no, um oh, I was anticipating it being about to turn red." (it had JUST TURNED GREEN!)
see what I mean? he is NEVER WRONG ...cannot allow himself to even FEEL what WRONG feels like. The blame for things is always put on either another circumstance outside himself, another person, me...but NEVER HIMSELF.
This has been a problem even when we listen to marriage tapes or read books together, because he always notices what MY FLAWS are, but his, he will justify, give a reason for, or blame me for.
It is dreadfully FRUSTRATING to live with someone like that, who cannot seem to be willing to accept that he is less than perfect and is a human being.
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Straight from the Misery Loves Company Department:
reallyME, as horrible as it is to experience this, and I much as I would NEVER wish it on another human being, I am very happy to have your company. Just knowing that I am not alone, that I didn't pick the only person among the 3+ billion men on Earth with this particular variety of madness, makes me feel soooo much better. Thank you.
I hope this may come as good news to you. Beware though. I think it's also the bad news. I'm am quite sure that it is completely involuntary and that they cannot do a darned thing about it. The shrink told me that N's don't change.
I am happy to report that fear of the long arm of the law has changed my H's thinking about whether it's okay to hurt one's wife. No more of that, unless one allows oneself to be hurt by his words and behavior, which I still do, unfortunately. For about a year I felt constant fear of physical danger. So, to the extent that the elimination of that threat is change, then N's can change. But it was only the fear of prison that got that done. After the second arrest a lady judge told H, "Do it again and you're going to prison." He has never touched me again. But he views his arrests and my "getting him arrested." I don't even bother telling him that he got himself arrested. It does not compute.
cannot allow himself to even FEEL what WRONG feels like
and
someone like that, who cannot seem to be willing to accept that he is less than perfect and is a human being
They aren't trying to be this way. It's some sort of brain malfunction. In my H's case, 99 if not 100 times out of 100, I swear, you could tell him he's standing on your foot and he would think that a) you're giving him a hard time, and b) it's your fault for having your foot there. He wouldn't apologize. You might feel hurt by his actions. You might think he's rude. But what if you realized that his brain doesn't work right? You might still be disappointed. You might not like him very well, especially as oppposed to your Ideal Man. But if you thought of it as being similar to being color blind, or dyslexic, or something like that, and NOT something that is voluntary, curable or in any way personal to you, would it make you feel better? Because that is the way it is. You know it's true. You've asked him so many questions, wondering how he could view things as he does. It's because that's the only way his brain can perceive it. It doesn't work right.
Happy to have company. Wish we weren't in this. But at least we aren't alone.
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H Confounded,
Here's a blunt 2 cents, with gentle intention:
I vote you TAKE the higher-paying job, get yourself a PO Box (pay in cash), have all your work-home documentation mailed there (no paystubs for a nosy husband)...and open a new savings account in your own name at a different bank and have whatever portion of your paycheck you can get away with deposited there directly (and of course, statements mailed to your PO Box). When you bring home your income, just bring home the portion you choose to.
Sorry to be practical, but you make so many understanding excuses for a man who has been violent to you in the past, and is verbally abusive still.
hugs and hopes,
Hops
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So, to the extent that the elimination of that threat is change, then N's can change. But it was only the fear of prison that got that done. After the second arrest a lady judge told H, "Do it again and you're going to prison." He has never touched me again. But he views his arrests and my "getting him arrested." I don't even bother telling him that he got himself arrested. It does not compute.
I have to say again that, the ONLY people that can get my husband to show FRAILTY, are AUTHORITY FIGURES...it means police, counselors, teachers, large men, anyone he perceives as having any POWER, he WILL back down in front of...but, as soon as he's only with me, his ego is BACK in tact...or, FALSE EGO as the case is.
As far as what HOPS says, I understand that we do want to make excuses for these people, but one must realize that we are still wanting to see some GOOD in them...we want there to be that "white" spot in such a BLACK person.
I'm with ya, Confounded...even though my opinions are not always said with a lot of tact (still learning that one), I doo care, I do understand, I AM in the situation right now, and together we will MAKE it, my friend :)
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Have to say that I agree with HOps. I realise we all make our decisions when we are able but I would add that in my experience mental abuse/torture/gaslighting is every bit as bad as physical abuse.......... maybe more stealth, that is the difference.
Could I recommend a book called Stalking the Soul. The author says where there is confusion there is ALWAYS abuse. Seems to me you are worth more than that
axa
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Hi confounded,
I am happy to report that fear of the long arm of the law has changed my H's thinking about whether it's okay to hurt one's wife.
But if you thought of it as being similar to being color blind, or dyslexic, or something like that, and NOT something that is voluntary, curable or in any way personal to you, would it make you feel better?
Let's stop and take a look at these two statements. The first is a factual statement. The second is an opinion or maybe hypothesis is a better term.
Do the facts support the hypothesis? Emphatically, no. He CHOSE to quit hitting you when it looked like he might end up in the hoosegow. So his hitting you WAS voluntary and seems to me was most undoubtedly quite personal.
Now it may be that an Ns underlying condition is incurable, but each of them demonstrates repeatedly that their actions toward others (which is what we all have to deal with after all) are absolutely a free choice they consciously make.
If an N is standing on your foot it is not an accident,; he has chosen to do it. They know it hurts when they are standing on someone else's foot. That's the whole point of it in the first place.
mud
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Confounded,
I have followed your whole thread and am wondering why you are still with this man? Is there something that compels you to stay? I'm sorry that I don't recall your whole story, but are there children involved or convoluted financial things? Is there some reason why you can't just say: "I'm through now", and extricate yourself?
It doesnt sound like you even LIKE him very much at this point. It doesnt sound like you can relate to him on any level--intellectually, emotionally or physically. What do you think?
Love
CB
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It has its ups and downs. The standing on one's foot was just hypothetical, and example of showing how he can't fathom being at fault. I stay because when it's good it's very good, and when it's bad I can ignore him. I became WAY too entwined with him. I allowed too much of my own energy to be diverted into his strange behaviors, which I have difficulty understanding. It isn't good for me, and it's boring.
Thank you all for helping me understand better. It is clear to me that although he has control over his actions, his perceptions can only vary within a narrow range. If one can never be at fault, then the whole universe must be viewed through is distorted lense.
It's a set of problems. Everyone has his or her own set. I know that I will sound jaded when I say this, but having observed other husbands, having been privy to the circumstances of many divorces, etc., I think that this is a set of problems that I can live with. Compared to my first marriage, in which I constantly wondered what was going on (his high hours didn't make sense with his low earnings), this is easy (X is a lawyer, and I learned after years of wondering what the heck was going on that often when he said he was going to a client meeting, it was really just a date with a woman he'd wanted to bed). (Yuck.)
I got all the marbles when I got divorced. Don't worry about me. I'm okay. Just trying to understand. I don't like being perplexed. Nobody does.
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I think one result of having N parents, and all the emotional chaos that causes, is that as adults it can drive one wacky to have people not make sense.
Whereas contentedly centered people with sound loving childhoods will see perplexing behavior and go, ha, that's odd, I don't get it...and then just go think about something else. They may not have so much of their peace of mind invested in other people not being perplexing. Whereas for Nsurvivors, perplexing may have threatening echoes of...oh god, if I can't understand or anticipate or analyse this, there will be some Nish thing happen that will be awful.
Make any sense? I just made it up.
Hops
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The standing on one's foot was just hypothetical, and example of showing how he can't fathom being at fault.
Yeah, I was using it as a metaphor too. But it goes beyond not just admitting fault. It is a metaphor for how they control others. It's not just obliviousness; it's how they manipulate those around them.
mud
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Hi Confounded,
I had a very abusive childhood so maybe my take on physical violence is a little stronger, but I have to say (and I say this with gentle intent and with the utmost respect for the situation you are in [I know it is hard]) - if a person is violent towards me once - they are done. That door is slammed shut – never, ever to be opened again.
Tough question coming and no offense intended, just an observation from the outside looking in (always easier - eh?):
What are the benefits of staying with him if I may ask?
Do you love him so much that you are willing to risk your physical safety - not to mention sacrifice your metal and emotional stability as a result of the daily barrage of emotionally cruelty - and that is what it boils down to, emotional cruelty.
In many ways I think the sly acts of emotional abuse - the ones that you can't quite put your finger on (those acts that you question – is this really abusive?) are the worst types of abuse to live through.
This type of behaviour IS abusive. However, because you can’t quite put your finger on it, and you want to be fair and honorable to the person (not to mention you care for them and hope it isn’t true), the behavior continues unchecked, or only mildly checked when it should be stopped completely. Over time, one’s sense of self is eroded away by doubt. Once that begins to happen, the pattern of emotional abuse worsens, because they get away with more and more.
Some of the “lucky” ones wake up one day and say – Wait. What happened? Where have I gone? Who am I? What have I become? And then begins the long arduous (at least IME) of rebuilding that sense of self to what it should be. This kind of behaviour takes a tremendous toll - and can be extremely difficult to overcome. (From one who knows :roll: )
Life is too short to waste one second of it with someone who treats you less than the beautiful, remarkable person that you are - especially when there is strong evidence that he won't/can't change.
Just my 0.02.
Much love to you,
Peace
On edit: I am sorry Confounded. I read through the posts prior to posting but for some reason your Post # 32 was not appearing prior to my posting. I just saw it, and see why you stay. Please compost (as Ami says) whatever I have said that doesn't fit.
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Dear Peace,
I was very impressed with your strength which was shown so clearly in this last post. WOW----you "convicted " me, as they say in religious circles.
I was not physically abused. I did not realize that I was emotionally abused until recently. It really is a drip,drip erosion of your esteem and precious trust in yourself. I really see myself as a "bombed out wasteland". However,I see that I can build from the ground floor up.
What hit me so strongly in your post was that I "married" the same emotional climate as with my M. I,also, had the same financial climate as my home. I was well provided for as a child. I did not think that you could be abused if you were well provided for. I thought that I was 'exaggerating".
In my marriage,I thought the same thing.
What is really hitting me is how my marriage was a continuation of the drip, drip erosion of self as in my childhood.
My H saw an NPD father and an abused M. They had material things.also.
My H wants to repeat HIS FOO with me-----ARRRGH.
So, my role is ----- the abused wife. He, subconsciously, wants me to play it. I, always did. However, now I am stepping back and seeing that I have a core that is important to honor.
IF I don't honor it,I will be emotionally, mentally or physically ill or all three( which I was). I saw today that it is a choice NOT to honor it, too.if I do nothing and stay abused,I am making a choice,by default--bleh.
So, I can chose which way to go.
Boy, did I ever repeat.
What scared me was a guy that I almost had an affair with. He turned out to be worse(much) than my H. I think that he was a sociopath. So, I moved down, rather than up---bleh.
I left the relationship when I found the board.I realized that he was "blaming " me for not "getting over my M". I realized that I would never get better with this. I did not realize that he was a sociopath until I read the book that Storm recommended about sociopaths in every day life.
My gut used to scream at me about this guy. However,I did listen when it came right down to it b/c he really scared me(down deep) and I never really commited to him in any real way b/c of my gut feelings.
My point is that you, Peace, made wonderful choices not to be abused ,again. I made the same choice as what I grew up with. However,I feel hopeful that I can change. The first step for me was realizing that I was not alone.You and Janet were the first people who showed me that I was not alone. I will be forever garteful to you, Peace. I feel hopeful. Love Ami