Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: vita on November 05, 2007, 11:18:38 PM
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I am reading a great book called Help I'm in love with a Narcissist by Steven Carter.
Here's some of the things he says about Narcissists:
Page 182: We are confused by Narcissists because they have a 2 sided personality (Jekyll and Hyde). The reason why Narcissists have a 2 sided personality is because they lack a true self (they only have a false self). So, because they only have a false self, they are either feeling "inflated or puffed up" (so they feel good and we see their good side, the side we love) or they feel "defeated and deflated" (so they feel bad and treat us badly).
Since we love their good side, we become confused when we see their bad side.
We cannot change their un-itegrated 2 sides.
Page 184-5: Narcissists "trample" our boundaries because Narcissists have trouble distinguishing between "self" and "other". Narcissists have trouble distinguishing between "self" and "other" because they only have a "false self".
Narcissists are charmers and we overlook their red flags because we want to believe the hollywood fantasy of 'living happily ever after'.
Page 186-7: If as infants, we did not separate from our parents in a healthy way, then we will have a hard time enforcing boundaries.
Boundaries have to do with "me" versus "you" versus "us". Narcissists target and love people who have poor boundaries.
Page 189: If you were raised to feel that your needs were not important (your parents taught you to "swallow" your needs), then you probably have weak boundaries and this is how you invite Narcissists into your life. The Narcissists take advantage of you because Narcissists know that you have weak boundaries.
page 190-1: To establish boundaries, you must know who you are and to know who you are, you must figure out what your needs and values are. Then, you must tell people what your needs and values are and avoid people (Narcissists) who do not reflect your values
On page 154, the author writes in bold:
Narcissists don't want your help
Narcissists rarely change
Narcissists punish those who get closest
Page 155: Narcissists inflict the deepest cuts on the people they trust most. If a Narcissists trusts you, you are an "ideal target".
Narcissists fear abandonment, so they attack those they trust because the Narcissist realizes that you will not abandon them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Once the Narcissist knows you are a loyal partner, then the Narcissist will attack you.
"When you try to get close and show understanding for the Narcissist's problems, then there is a very good chance that the Narcissist will clobber you" and to add insult to injury, that's when the Narcissist will also probably blame you for their problems!!!!!!!!!!
I think it's a great book because it shows how the Narcissist thinks, how their mind works.
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Hello Bean. Thank you for the welcome.
Unfortunately, I must go to sleep now as I have to get up early.
I will write you tomorrow.
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Dear Vita,
THANK YOU for your comments. I was getting "weak" about NC. I have had it all of two days(hiding under the table). Your post snapped me to my senses--especially about "swallow" your needs--GULP.
I ,so ,gave myself up that I couldn't even eat. No contact is back on-----Boy, I am really sick---bleh
Thanks for your wonderful contributions, Vita . Love Ami
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Vita,
Thank you. This so completely says it. I live it with the nh.
I had contact by phone yesterday and this morning. It was my call to him. It was horrible. I am okay. I made a practive move and felt I needed to do it for me. I am glad I did. I needed a touch of reality into who he really is and I sure got it.
I am working hard on my boundaries and my choices. I feel like I have accomplished something for myself. The insanity I encountered is getting worse as I pull away from him. He thinks he is leaving me. I kept my own self control and let him just rant and rage. He is losing control of me but he thinks it's me losing him. I never had him anyway. And he is losing control of more than just me and I saw it.
Breaking his power over me has taken years and lots of pain and trial and error. I gave it to him and I am taking it away.
BR
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Welcome Vita.
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Vita, that was a great primer on narcissism. Really covers the bases IMO. I'm still working on the last one though. Narcissists inflict the deepest cuts on the people they trust most....... I
haven't been able to wrap my mind around this yet. I've experienced a great deal of secret sabotage/deliberate damage from Ns (major passive-aggressiveness it seems) which may be what this is about.
"When you try to get close and show understanding for the Narcissist's problems, then there is a very good chance that the Narcissist will clobber you" and to add insult to injury, that's when the Narcissist will also probably blame you for their problems!!!!!!!!!! I don't think Ns ever recognize that THEY have any problems at all, it's ALWAYS someone else's fault. This is what makes them completely impossible to deal with and why they never change. Ns seem to be totally without the ability to look at themselves objectively or critically. LVs on the other hand make it a full-time occupation.
Bill
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A Warm Welcome ((( Vita )))
Thanks so much for sharing your book "Help I'm in love with a Narcissist by Steven Carter"
have not come across that one!
Yes, it is GREAT and here you have listed such essential truths regarding N's. Thank you.
Page 189: If you were raised to feel that your needs were not important (your parents taught you to "swallow" your needs), then you probably have weak boundaries and this is how you invite Narcissists into your life. The Narcissists take advantage of you because Narcissists know that you have weak boundaries.
As the eldest who was made 'Parentified' and had to give up all needs in looking out for the needs of my siblings, the above statement validates the reality regarding 'weak' boundaries ... or upn hindisght, if any boundaries at all! Which would answer my heartfelt question as to How & Why I found myself seemingly attracting Narcissists into my life at varying levels.
page 190-1: To establish boundaries, you must know who you are and to know who you are, you must figure out what your needs and values are. Then, you must tell people what your needs and values are and avoid people (Narcissists) who do not reflect your values
"Avoid people (Narcissists) who do not reflect your values" ..... plainly has to be the golden rule for a healthy future.
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Narcissists inflict the deepest cuts on the people they trust most. If a Narcissists trusts you, you are an "ideal target".
Narcissists fear abandonment, so they attack those they trust because the Narcissist realizes that you will not abandon them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Once the Narcissist knows you are a loyal partner, then the Narcissist will attack you.
Bill,
Think the trust that the Narcissist has is the belief that you are totally enmeshed and bound to the N totally: in mind, body and spirit
and so then and only then can the N begin will the strike of attack - because the N has the belief in knowing that you won't abandon him/her.
But the N has to have that belief (trust) before N will strike the first attack.
My experience tells me that during this 'trust' building process the N is planning the 'Secret Sabotage' and 'Deliberate Damage' strike(s) of attack.
Not forgetting that the Narcissist selects the 'Target' in the first place.
Jealousy and Envy of the 'Target's values and personal qualities being the motivation.
Because N's are empty vessels.
Personally, speaking from painful experience, I now refer to Narcissists as "Nice Person Seeking Destroyers"
Love, Leah
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Leah, so maybe attacking you after they begin to trust you is kind of a bonding ritual? Proof of your complete enmeshment? You are truly my friend if you let me screw you over and you don't abandon me. I really think that's part of it. I had an N (somatic type) who used to work for me and was just the most amazing screw-up. The really interesting thing is that he warned me about what he was going to do in advance by telling me a story about how he caused a whole bunch of damage (don't remember what he did anymore) to his father's house one day when his father left him alone (that's always when he screwed things up on me). In his twisted way, by attacking(sabotaging) me he was bonding with me! Believe it or not, I've always suspected something like this (from my experience with him). The thing is I DID abandon him in the end--I fired him!
Bill
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Great excerpts vita and welcome.
Page 189: If you were raised to feel that your needs were not important (your parents taught you to "swallow" your needs), then you probably have weak boundaries and this is how you invite Narcissists into your life. The Narcissists take advantage of you because Narcissists know that you have weak boundaries.
That one really hits home with me. It strikes me these days that I myself was likewise seeking out N-ish people because I sought people who would not notice that I am a shameful person. The original FOO N set me up for that by convincing me of my shameful inadequacy and shameful 'qualities' and that I should be grateful to be tolerated and to serve the needs of others.
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Leah, you did a switcheroo on me. I didn't realize you could edit your posts after you sent them, so I was responding to the first one. I thought I was hallucinating for awhile when after I posted yours was suddenly different. No matter, it was just a strange thing to see!
Jealousy and Envy of the 'Target's values and personal qualities being the motivation. I also believe this is the main motivation, but I think this bonding thing has some legs too. E, the N Volleyball player always tries to pick on weak players on his serve, to the exclusion of all others, however I noticed him regularly picking on a woman (who feels picked on) who can usually return his serve pretty well and I couldn't figure it out. It's because he's attracted to her!! Ns really do exist in their very own Twilight Zone.
Bill
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The really interesting thing is that he warned me about what he was going to do in advance by telling me a story about how he caused a whole bunch of damage (don't remember what he did anymore) to his father's house one day when his father left him alone (that's always when he screwed things up on me). In his twisted way, by attacking(sabotaging) me he was bonding with me! Believe it or not, I've always suspected something like this (from my experience with him). The thing is I DID abandon him in the end--I fired him!
Bill,
Bonding? YES that must be it!
Can identify with your N warning you in advance by telling you the story about how he caused a whole bunch of damage then sabotaging you - we may have missed the warning signals way back then, but we sure won't miss them in the future - is our firm hope and our song!
Some small comfort that you had the finality of abandonment in firing him.
Love,
Leah
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Leah, you did a switcheroo on me. I didn't realize you could edit your posts after you sent them, so I was responding to the first one. I thought I was hallucinating for awhile when after I posted yours was suddenly different. No matter, it was just a strange thing to see!
Jealousy and Envy of the 'Target's values and personal qualities being the motivation. I also believe this is the main motivation, but I think this bonding thing has some legs too. E, the N Volleyball player always tries to pick on weak players on his serve, to the exclusion of all others, however I noticed him regularly picking on a woman (who feels picked on) who can usually return his serve pretty well and I couldn't figure it out. It's because he's attracted to her!! Ns really do exist in their very own Twilight Zone.
Bill
Bill,
Yes, sorry :) rather than post again, I edited and added Jealousy and Envy of the 'Target's values and personal qualities being the motivation. And I agree with you regard the 'Bonding' aspect, the N must see a certain vulnerability in the 'Target' as a means of suitability for ease of 'Bonding'
Twilight Zone is a most apt description indeed and one in which I felt totally trapped; in mind, body and soul.
N's = Bodysnatchers!
Love,
Leah
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Leah, Bodysnatchers is really creepy and true. HOw about Ns as "Bodysnatchers in the Twilight Zone?" A whole new genre of horror films is born!
Bill
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Leah, Bodysnatchers is really creepy and true. HOw about Ns as "Bodysnatchers in the Twilight Zone?" A whole new genre of horror films is born!
Bill
Bill,
:) :) :)
Leah
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Hi Vita,
Page 182: We are confused by Narcissists because they have a 2 sided personality (Jekyll and Hyde). The reason why Narcissists have a 2 sided personality is because they lack a true self (they only have a false self).
In my experience, the Narcissist took on my persona, stole my character, stole my values, myself.
The Narcissist became me! Whilst the narcissist secretly sabotaged me to the point of sinking into depths of sheer unbelief and despair.
To some it may seem an unbelievable, but it was and is true, and for some time, I found it difficult to fully comprehend.
Love,
Leah
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Hi Vita,
Page 182: We are confused by Narcissists because they have a 2 sided personality (Jekyll and Hyde). The reason why Narcissists have a 2 sided personality is because they lack a true self (they only have a false self).
In my experience, the Narcissist took on my persona, stole my character, stole my values, myself.
The Narcissist became me! Whilst the narcissist secretly sabotaged me to the point of sinking into depths of sheer unbelief and despair.
To some it may seem an unbelievable, but it was and is true, and for some time, I found it difficult to fully comprehend.
Love,
Leah
Hi Leah,
Did you ever feel, when around your NS, as though you suddenly became their projection of there unwanted self? This leading to confusion and distress. As if they take your virture, such as a good heart that wants to help others without any reward for self, then project onto you theirvice such as selfish motives and selfish desires and make you feel as though you are the selfish one?
Gabbenangel
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Dear Gabbenangel,
That is exactly what my M does------totally. Thanks for helping me clarify it---bleh Love Ami
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(((((Ami and BR))))) You will get through this, and eventually, in stages, the NC will be so sweet, you will treasure it.
Vita, I want to join Leah, Bill, Lighter, Iphi, and Gabbenangel in welcoming you and thanking you for the informative post- it certainly helps!
Love,
Changing
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Hi Gabbenangel,
Yes, with regard to my NMother and also my NSister (they have the exact same character and in fact look 'cloned').
both of whom, happy to say, I have absolutely No Contact.
Love, Leah