Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gabbenangel on November 12, 2007, 09:03:44 PM
-
I have been suffering distress, questioning my sanity because my x N therapist or N spiritual director. She shunned me when I tried to gently confront her about what seemed like subtle despise coming from her towards me, as well as her consistant lack of empathy over my grief and sorrow. Her refusal to ever speak to me again pushed a mom button and pummeled me into the pain of my rejection of my childhood abandonment. A button she new all too well... I have to almost think that she enjoys hurting people...what therapists would use your buttons has revenge against you? It is almost sadistic. I have been in distress looking up and examining every personality disorder know to man-kind in attempt to understand why a person would shun another...I ask myself daily... am I the abuser... am I aggressive, am I the one who is the N? Am I spilt off in any way where I am not seeing or in touch with some aspect of self that I project onto others?
It is crazy making but I am healing....
I understand a great deal of this was transference in therapy, and in relationships in general; we can make everyone become our mom and dad in an attempt to act out the unfinished business of our childhoods. However, I was very careful of not projecting...I approached the subject to her with an investigatory attitude more than I had any contempt.
Then I was in pain because of her rejection and the memores/new layer of healing that was brought up at the time that I went to my other spiritual director, the priest, he treated me coldly, I knew that she, the x N therapist/spiritual director had spoken with him first. He leads her prayer group. He was harsh in a way that I had never seen before and I had known him for two years. When I asked him about his harshness he made me, in a round about way, think that it was all in my head. I know that I can be overly critical of myself and when I am that way I can easily perceive others as criticizing me but what was painful and harsh about him was as though he was in fix it mode...wanting to fix me more than empathizing and encouraging my healing. For him that may have seemed like caring and empathy but for those of us trying to heal, we don't want others to try and fix us...I just want compassion and acceptance. And if someone does not give it to me then I am just going to have to get it from God and give it too myself...gosh darn it !!!
-
I have been suffering distress, questioning my sanity because my x N therapist or N spiritual director. She shunned me when I tried to gently confront her about what seemed like subtle despise coming from her towards me, as well as her consistant lack of empathy over my grief and sorrow. Her refusal to ever speak to me again pushed a mom button and pummeled me into the pain of my rejection of my childhood abandonment. A button she new all too well... I have to almost think that she enjoys hurting people...what therapists would use your buttons has revenge against you? It is almost sadistic. I have been in distress looking up and examining every personality disorder know to man-kind in attempt to understand why a person would shun another...I ask myself daily... am I the abuser... am I aggressive, am I the one who is the N? Am I spilt off in any way where I am not seeing or in touch with some aspect of self that I project onto others?
It is crazy making but I am healing....
I understand a great deal of this was transference in therapy, and in relationships in general; we can make everyone become our mom and dad in an attempt to act out the unfinished business of our childhoods. However, I was very careful of not projecting...I approached the subject to her with an investigatory attitude more than I had any contempt.
Then I was in pain because of her rejection and the memores/new layer of healing that was brought up at the time that I went to my other spiritual director, the priest, he treated me coldly, I knew that she, the x N therapist/spiritual director had spoken with him first. He leads her prayer group. He was harsh in a way that I had never seen before and I had known him for two years. When I asked him about his harshness he made me, in a ,round about way think that it was all in my head. I know that I can be overly critical of myself and when I am that way I can easily perceive others as criticizing me but what was painful and harsh about him was as though he was in fix it mode...wanting to fix me more than empathizing and encouraging my healing. For him that may have seemed like caring and empathy but for those of us trying to heal, we don't want others to try and fix us...I just want compassion and acceptance. And if someone does not give it to me then I am just going to have to get it from God and give it too myself...gosh darn it !!!
Hey gabben
Did it ever occur to you that one or both are Nns??????? Look at all the black marks. That is abnormal behaviour. I would dump them and search for a more compassionate therapist. They are out there.
Yes we all could use understanding and compassion, empathy and friendship.
Coming from God we don't know when he is over Russia and is out of range with his cell phone, so we really need this in human form.
xx
Izzy
leg style cell
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Coming from God we don't know when he is over Russia and is out of range with his cell phone, so we really need this in human form.
This is funny...LOL!!!
Thanks Izzy!
Lise
-
Dear Lise,
I want to write tomorrow when I am not so tired. I am so glad that you are here. Your post deserves s/one with a clear ,thinking head b/c you brought out very profound points. Love Ami
((((((((((((Lise)))))))))))))))))))
-
Lise, I agree with Izzy, I think you are giving both of these people too much credit. I too am very suspicious of the pastor's behavior. I agree with you, his cold, fix-you behavior is not right. She IS punishing you, make no mistake about it. She will use every bit of her knowledge of your 'weaknesses' against you without any qualms, because you have stopped loving her unconditionally and she is very angry about it, even if she won't show it. You are dealing with the emotions of an angry 3 year old, not an adult and you mustn't try to comprehend her behavior in adult terms or you'll drive yourself nuts. This is the hardest part to see--her adult behavior is only an act, and she's quite an accomplished actor. Emotionally she hasn't progressed beyond a self-centered 3 year old needing you to worship her. Very hard and painful to realize. We're all rooting for you!
Bill
-
Dear Lise,
What struck me is the sentence that we "repeat our mother and father " issues with others(therapists, priests,other people). That hit me like a "brick"on the head. WOW.
That seems to be the answer----my buttons. Oh ,the pain of my buttons. How many thousands of times have I repeated the story of my M by "playing'it out in "actions"?I am still doing it.
I agree with the wise answers from Izzy, Bill and Bean. The two "spiritual" leaders are very,very abusive. The woman probably "lured" the priest in to her "crazy web", but now they are a team. You did not do anything wrong BUT have "buttons"
That is the part that I see where you( and I) have the capacity to change.
I look back on most of my relationships. I wanted my M. It was that simple. I wanted her again and again with both men and woman.
Many of my relationships got screwed up or I just ran away when I was "overwhelmed" with what I had created.
This woman is BAD. I am sure that she has a whole "pile" of victims. The priest has joined with her. We don't know the dynamics of why that was. However,it is not a safe environment for you,now(IMO)
The only way that you could stay there,if you want to, is to heal suffiiciently. , that you don't care anymore about them and it means nothing to you.
If that can't happen(which it would be very hard), then I think that you should leave.
It was a lesson that we have all learned. I think that everyone ,on the board, could relate(IMO)
You fell "in the hole". My former b/f( the cop).always told me of the story of the guy falling in the hole. You must know it. The guy walks down the street and keeps falling in the "same" hole. One day, he takes another street----bleh.
I think that you simply repeated the yearning in your heart from your FOO. How many times have I repeated it :Countless times.
That is how I see it . Lise, you are a wonderful voice with vitality and beauty. I think that you will come out of this stronger. I bet that you feel it already. Love Ami
(((((((((((((((Lise)))))))))))))))
-
Dear Lise,
I want to write tomorrow when I am not so tired. I am so glad that you are here. Your post deserves s/one with a clear ,thinking head b/c you brought out very profound points. Love Ami
((((((((((((Lise)))))))))))))))))))
Thank you ((((((((((((((AMI))))))))))))))))
-
gabben,
Oh dear. An abusive therapist or other supposedly supportive figure is probably one of the biggest setbacks I've seen people discuss here.
This is the last thing you needed or deserved.
Please keep yourself in your prayers tonight, I will keep you in mine too - you deserve all the love and guidance that is humanly available tonight.
I'm sorry
bean
Hi Bean,
Thank you for your prayers. I am glad that I found this forum.
Blessings,
Lise
-
Dear Lise,
What struck me is the sentence that we "repeat our mother and father " issues with others(therapists, priests,other people). That hit me like a "brick"on the head. WOW.
Dr. Grossman has an article that was very helpful to me..here is the link:
http://www.voicelessness.com/narcissism.html
I agree with the wise answers from Izzy, Bill and Bean. The two "spiritual" leaders are very,very abusive. The woman probably "lured" the priest in to her "crazy web", but now they are a team. You did not do anything wrong BUT have "buttons"
Crazy web...I like that...it is a funny thing how the truth with set us free.
I don't think the priest is a full blown N, it is possible he has a bit of the N traits though. I think that it is like Ami said...he has been pulled into her crazy web and he respects her because of her degrees and prestige, so he will listen to whatever she says above whatever I say.
No doubt she scapegoated me to him by her playing the innocent victim..that is why he was so cold to me and protective of her. Little did he know that he was not really protecting her but a mirage..her image.
I think that he has her up on a pedestal...his dream of a saintly woman come true, he can't see yet her real self or lack there of. He is a good man he does mean well he has just been pulled into the web like Ami said. I am a little suspicious of him...perhaps he is a LV too...and one day she will turn on him if he ever gets wind of her wolf ass under the wool suit.
-
The only way that you could stay there,if you want to, is to heal sufficiently. , that you don't care anymore about them and it means nothing to you.
If that can't happen(which it would be very hard), then I think that you should leave.
It was a lesson that we have all learned. I think that everyone ,on the board, could relate(IMO)
You fell "in the hole". My former b/f( the cop).always told me of the story of the guy falling in the hole. You must know it. The guy walks down the street and keeps falling in the "same" hole. One day, he takes another street----bleh.
Hi Ami,
Your share was so encouraging and helpful... so much to respond too.
I have left the prayer group, I did that last year... I left my work with the Saintly N and now I have left my work with the priest. It was painful but I new that I needed to be with safe people and that God would eventually lead me to those safe people...people like you!
I love the "hole story." It is so true...however, this time instead of falling into the hole through a love relationship I made the counselors and the instution of my parish my Mom and Dad...or my God. Now, I have pulled back a bit and I am taking the time to let the wounds under this stuff come up. At times I feel like a 3 year old... I cry those deep sobs accompanied by burning tears, my heart hurts, but it is healing. Perhaps next time, Ami, you and I will just take a different street, where there is no hole!~
-
She IS punishing you, make no mistake about it. She will use every bit of her knowledge of your 'weaknesses' against you without any qualms, because you have stopped loving her unconditionally and she is very angry about it, even if she won't show it. You are dealing with the emotions of an angry 3 year old, not an adult and you mustn't try to comprehend her behavior in adult terms or you'll drive yourself nuts. This is the hardest part to see--her adult behavior is only an act, and she's quite an accomplished actor.
Thank you Bill - you insight is very helpful and it feels right on. It is so hard to think that people would this way...cold wanting to hurt. but I guess they have to protect themselves against people like me. She knows that my deepest wound is abandonment...she also knows that I get angry with abandonment. Therefore, what better way to make herself look good than to make me look angry...then she can say to everyone "see, Lise is the aggressor." Is this a classic N trick or what?
Very helpful Bill... thank you.
Lise
Emotionally she hasn't progressed beyond a self-centered 3 year old needing you to worship her. Very hard and painful to realize. We're all rooting for you!
THANK YOU!! This web forum is a blessing!
Bill
-
Saint N's are, in my experience, the deadliest.
In Sheep's Clothing by George Simon work on the subtleties of manipulation, control and exclusion,
as mentioned earlier today, springs to mind.
With regard to church events, the Saint N sails the ship, with the voiceless priest towing the line.
Observed it many times, from girlhood thro' to womanhood.
Shivers me timbers.
Leah
-
Lise, Randy had at least two people that he manipulated into acting in his stead so he could maintain his silent treatment of me and also be able to claim that they were acting entirely on their own when they dumped HIS anger onto me. (I suspect that's what the pastor is doing, even if he isn't aware of it) Randy motivated these people by convincing them that I was 'out to get him' because I was 'unstable' and had "anger issues." (this is the very same explanation he gave to me for the anger of his ex-women friends.) I DID have anger and emotional issues with him of course, created entirely by his own horrid behavior, but the wish to cause him harm was his own projection onto me.
But he 'proved' his case one day by ambushing me in front of the whole group with a very subtle, very deliberate provocation. This was his secret come-back plan to get rid of me. It took me completely by surprise and I 'lost it' before I knew it. He knew exactly what would push my buttons! I didn't hit him and I wouldn't have, because I CAN control myself, but I definitely wanted to put 'the fear of the lord' into him, if you know what I mean. Well, that pretty much destroyed all of my credibility from that point on and the whole thing was entirely planned and calculated to do just that. I became from that day on a 'violent person' in many people's eyes.
I think you should expect almost anything from this woman if you stay in her world. Another thing to think about in regard to this woman that's been coming onto my radar screen lately. I think Randy befriended me right from the beginning because of envy. From the word go, he had a mission to ruin me because I had something (I don't know what, it doesn't matter) that caused him to feel inadequate and the way to fix that was to gain my trust and then bring me down at every opportunity. (Reminds me of the pedophile befriending all the single guys). Too many weird things happened over the years and it's really the only explanation. I also say this because I have been sabotaged in some way by ALL the male Ns I've known and it's clearly what Ns do to 'rivals.' IMO, it's largely unconscious on their part, but does that matter? Anyway, that's MY war story. I hope it can spare you some of the crap that I went through.
Bill
-
Hi Bill,
I'm getting a strong message from your posts to keep a good eye open for her potential sabotage in my life. I think that if I can stay as far away from her and her groupies then I will be OK. I have many friends and support who do not know her and would stand up for me no matter what. Then there is God... if He is for me then what N can really be against me.
I'm paying close heed to your posts and your warnings to expect her games to continue...it is like you said earlier that she will stop at nothing to make sure that I do not blow her cover or image of the kindly saint.
I think that her lack of empathy is her biggest fear... if she knew that people knew that she could care less about them then it would devastate her.
I wonder...do these N's really know what they are doing? I mean, are not some of them just deeply wounded little victims who have not come to terms with their veneer and pain yet. Once people start seeing through them then won't they give the gig up and see if they cannot heal and grow...or am I just full of wishful thinking?
-
But he 'proved' his case one day by ambushing me in front of the whole group with a very subtle, very deliberate provocation. This was his secret come-back plan to get rid of me. It took me completely by surprise and I 'lost it' before I knew it. He knew exactly what would push my buttons!
This is amazes me...did anyone else in the group see what was going on? If you don't mind, what was the provocation?
Lise
-
Lise, I thought you were actively involved within this group now, but I guess you aren't? It's a little confusing. If you are no threat to her little empire anymore she won't give you a second thought I'm sure. I honestly don't think Ns have much of a clue what they are doing, certainly very little awareness, if any at all, of the havoc and pain they cause in other people's lives. But they wouldn't care anyway! They have hardly any shame, hardly any self-awareness IMO. (Samuel Vaknin is exceptional I think as far as awareness). They seem to have a huge amount of anxiety and are driven and compulsive, so I think they are also victims of their upbringing, but IMO they deserve very little sympathy beyond their mere humanity. Gosh, I get tired of talking about them! :lol: They have such a need for attention and then they get even more for being so rotten!
Bill
-
Hi Bill,
Yes, I guess you can say that my over preoccupation with he,r the N, and perhaps my distress, might make it seem that I am still involved with the group. I only recently stopped working with her AGAIN. I left her group a year ago. I also left working with her a year ago. But then, this summer, I was told to work with her by the priest while he was a way... In my gut I did not want to but I thought that maybe her manipulation was all in my head, he seemed to like her so why should not I.
Then this summer she shunned me after I tried to confront. It was her long over due punishment from leaving her group and leaving my work with her last year. Last year, the week after I left my work with her and left her group, she got the priest...who she knew I really cared for, to run her prayer group. I thought to myself.." huh...could she be??? hmmm...na, she would never do that." Now I see that she has been subtly protecting her image from my scrutinizing eyes for a while.
Lise
-
Lise, no, no one had a clue what was going on. And they STILL don't. (And it doesn't matter anymore) It's kind of complicated and hard to explain simply but I'll try to give you a shortened version. Randy just showed up one day out of the blue at a group sit-down lunch. He hadn't been around for a long time and he had evidently been busy peddling the story that I was driving/keeping him away from the group with 'my anger." A total projection and flip flop of reality. HE was angry with ME for confronting him over his shabby treatment (I was respectful, but uncompromising--I'd done enough of that already!) and he was so uncomfortable being around me (I was the crack in the mirror of his sainthood) that he was in fact trying to drive ME away. I had no problem ignoring him, but he couldn't ignore me! Background: He had been the informal evening 'social director,' a major source of his N supply, and had in fact provided a valuable service to the group for Saturday night entertainment for quite awhile. I had been his first and biggest and truest supporter in getting this going and it had taken a long time. Did anyone remember that? Not a chance, but they DID resent me for 'driving him away.!"
So anyway, he just shows up. After two years of the silent treatment (I too have abandonment issues, Lise, and it was very hurtful) and sending regular toxic waste at me via his cronies. I am sitting at another table minding my own business, talking to some people about a movie I really wanted to see and the people at my table thought it would be good too and also wanted to go. Well, Randy has been listening carefully from way over there and he reaches over into this private conversation (talk about violating boundaries!) and announces to everybody that the Movie Group (another one of his N supply fixes that I supported when no one else did) 'really didn't think the movie was very good.' Just trying to save you the trouble, don't you know? It's the kiss of death for the movie for my table of people. Randy has a way of presenting something, in a way that I can't do justice to, that if you see this useless dog you have about as much sophistication as a three-legged mutt wearing a bow tie with ketchup on it. I lost it. It's really kind of funny. Tables and chairs flying through the air like in an old Western. I am a very violent person now and people look at me warily, even if they weren't there. Poor Randy, what you get for trying to do someone a favor!
-
Wow...what a story and one that I could relate with so well except the fight scene :)
"(I was the crack in the mirror of his sainthood)" This is such a good description of her.
I especially love the fight scene you very lightly described... I can imagine. The anger I experienced with this saint N brought up severe rage at the feelings of betrayal by my mom. It sound like that was the case for you with Randy too. You did a lot for him you cared for him and he treated you like you were nothing.
Just last night I was reflecting on how much I want to devalue my N wannabe saint woman and the priest because I feel rejected by them...I have been struggling with that. But I can't do that... it is only a defense against the deep pain and hurt of betrayal at my parents.
It is so much easier to let go of those we love and care about, even when they hurt us, when we can say well they were messed up or they are not that important or they are an N etc... when the truth is if we want so much for our voice to be heard and valued is that not exactly what they are screaming for too....the difference is that we are honest and fooling ourselves way less than the N does?
I'm finally leaving my desk - talk to you soon. Thanks for writing Bill.
Lise
-
Lise, We are more honest and more trustworthy by a long shot. We try to be decent to other people as best we can while they exploit others however they can, without any compassion or sense of shame. They never hold themselves accountable for anything. Don't you believe in accountability?
Bill
-
The anger I experienced with this saint N brought up severe rage at the feelings of betrayal by my mom. It sound like that was the case for you with Randy too.
Not at all Lise. This was not about my father at all, it was about Randy pretending to be my best friend for many years. My father was ten times more trustworthy.
You did a lot for him you cared for him and he treated you like you were nothing.
Exactly.
Also, let's be clear, there was no physical contact of any kind. But honestly, a punch in the nose would have been justified and I would not have felt badly about it.
Bill
-
I should offer a little more explanation. His comment had nothing whatever to do with the movie. It may have been a complete lie that they didn't like it, it's immaterial. He was calculatingly, deliberately trying to sabotage my plans. I must not have made that very clear.
-
Hi Bill - I want to respond to what you wrote but I have to start working for a deadline at my work and I need to unplug until tomorrow.
Thanks for your posts. I think it is hard to get the real clear picture of all for your story and mine via e-mail forum...But I get the picture that you understand what I am going through and that helps.
Lise
-
Ok, Lise. I confess I've become a little angry with you, but it's ok, it's just part of the 'process.' Come back when you have the time.
Bill
-
Are you cross with me because I am not available? Or is it something else I've done?
I'm leaving my office now and won't be back on line until tomorrow. I WILL write to you then.
Lise
-
Lise, I come here for support too. I have just been through the most horrid two years of my life caused by an N whom I tragically and mistakenly believed to be my best friend for almost ten years. He was undermining me the entire time whenever he could while I was blissfully blind to it. Not one person in this group thinks I'm not the bad guy because not one of them has a clue about what a worm he really is. None of his hurt and angry ex-woman friends are around to support my version of reality because they were never part of the group to begin with. I was really not interested in hearing sympathy for Ns, nor for this horrible excuse for a human being, after I told you part of my story. Yes, it did make me angry. I am still very sensitive to the whole situation and I'm still in recovery from it. In any event, you seem like a very sweet person who means well and I'm very willing to forgive you. :)
Bill
-
I was really not interested in hearing sympathy for Ns, nor for this horrible excuse for a human being, after I told you part of my story. Yes, it did make me angry. I am still very sensitive to the whole situation and I'm still in recovery from it. In any event, you seem like a very sweet person who means well and I'm very willing to forgive you. :)
Hi Bill - thank you for your honesty and I see your point. I think that my sympathy for N's was coming from my own neurotic guilt...I have such deep anger and shame...if I feel or suppress it, I have counter it with a act of niceness or something or a justification for them, it is my defense against feeling my shame.
Your honesty has helped me grow and see this and stare the ugliness of the N's behavior right in the face and see it for what it is...deception, lies, pain to others and ouch, my anger and shame - but I can't heal what I can't feel.
Thank you for your forgiveness...I'll be more careful.
I hope that we can continue to connect, I'm grateful for the insights and time that you have given me.
Lise
-
Dear Gab...I too am dealing w/ the aftermath of a saintly N. When I last saw my NPH, we were sitting in front of our priest, while he was spouting lies about my mental state. Only 1 person from my parish will speak to me now. He's effectively done a smear campaign throughout the church. One of the most disturbing aspects, I've had to face lately, is that saintly N's choose allies that are most forgiving, have a strong sense of guilt & believe in the goodness of others. What better narcissistic supply could there be, than those innocents that fill up church pews? And to have a priest side w/ them...all the better for the N. After all, who'd dispute a priest? For me, one of the things that hurts most, is that my NH not only terrorized my emotions, trust & violated everything good in me, but he really hit me in my spiritual beliefs. A sacred part of me that I never would've believed could be shaken.I feel badly for my priest & parisheners who are but pawns in my NH's game. It's cruel what he's still doing to them. It's frustrating that I can't make them see the Truth. All I can do is pray for them. Know that you are aware & safe now and that God knows what's really happening. Reading your posts has made me feel that I'm not alone in this sordid aspect of N games. The saintly N knows how to push those buttons that strike at our core belief systems. I've found sites that deal w/ only this issue & now know that it's much more prevalent that I orginally thought. You are in my prayers Lise. Peace in Christ, Safe
-
the truth is if we want so much for our voice to be heard and valued is that not exactly what they are screaming for too....the difference is that we are honest and fooling ourselves way less than the N does?
Hi Lise...this feels true to me.
I can't imagine anything more frustrating than a "saintly" N.
At the very very very bottom, though, I think unless I can dredge up compassion for even the worst imagainable human being...they won. Their world view proven, their emptiness sanctified.
I won't give them that. That said, the compassion can be interrupted with fury. And better yet, I can feel it at a safe physical and emotional distance that might mean complete NC. Or full-tilt battle against them.
None of that invalidates my right and my choice to hold them in light of compassion, should I choose to. And I do.
Bill, I'm sorry you are angry but imo, Lise owes you no change in her behavior, and you are the only person responsible for how you respond to someone's post. Other posters can respond and adjust to your feelings if they wish, in whatever way is right and healthy for them, but you have no entitlement to demand it. (I do have compassion for your fury with your friend. I am not wishing a "fight". I'm just being blunt this morning. Hope you'll forgive that too, my friend.)
love to you both,
Hops
-
the truth is if we want so much for our voice to be heard and valued is that not exactly what they are screaming for too....the difference is that we are honest and fooling ourselves way less than the N does?
Hi Lise...this feels true to me.
I can't imagine anything more frustrating than a "saintly" N.
At the very very very bottom, though, I think unless I can dredge up compassion for even the worst imagainable human being...they won. Their world view proven, their emptiness sanctified.
I won't give them that. That said, the compassion can be interrupted with fury. And better yet, I can feel it at a safe physical and emotional distance that might mean complete NC. Or full-tilt battle against them.
None of that invalidates my right and my choice to hold them in light of compassion, should I choose to. And I do.
Bill, I'm sorry you are angry but imo, Lise owes you no change in her behavior, and you are the only person responsible for how you respond to someone's post. Other posters can respond and adjust to your feelings if they wish, in whatever way is right and healthy for them, but you have no entitlement to demand it. (I do have compassion for your fury with your friend. I am not wishing a "fight". I'm just being blunt this morning. Hope you'll forgive that too, my friend.)
love to you both,
Hops
All that you wrote struck a cord in me....I thank you for your post. I think that now I have to dig deeper and become even more honest. The truth is that I was afraid when Bill was angry at me...I want to please.. I was afraid at his possible rejection so I conformed...oh, how easily I can conform.
However, there was some truth to the guilt that I feel over my anger at N's. I can cover that guilt up by trying to play the saint myself but that was only a sliver of where I was coming from.
I guess I just want to see the world through Christ's eyes and Lord knows how many times I have been false, fake and covering up my real self too. I just don't want to hurt others and play games. I have been so hurt myself - I want to care.
How do I expect God to forgive me if I can't forgive others for the very same sins, though they are more blind and more deeply deceiving than I, we are all still living lives of duplicity on some levels. It is like the woman who committed adultery, "those without sin, cast the first stone."
Once again, I do not want to invalidate Bill's anger and hurt.
Thanks Hops and Bill - love you both too.
Lise
-
Wow, Hops, besides being blunt this morning, you are also being judgmental! I have not 'demanded' anything from Lise. She DID seem to take it that way, and so did you, but you are both projecting IMO. She said a couple of things that I disagreed with and which angered me a bit for the reasons I explained as best as I could. I thought I gave her a great deal of support and I honestly felt I didn't get it in return. I also tried to explain my sensitivity to lack of support. You both seemed to miss what I was saying here and that's ok, I can live with it, but I will not apologize for my feelings, Hops, and I certainly do not feel the need to justify them to someone who was not even a party to the conversation. That's your boundary problem IMO. We are all in recovery here, trying to learn each others boundaries, and we are bound to have issues with each other sometimes. The path to better understanding is respectful honesty, which is the path that I tried to follow as well as I could.
Bill
-
Dear Hops,
I say this respectfully. If someone is very raw from N abuse,it is very painful when s/one else "minimizes' it by saying 'N's are "people" too (or some version of this)
Lise is struggling with the "push and pull " of her feelings toward the "church" N and her M. I think that Bill and Lise worked it out very well and very respectfully. I can see your 'entrance" in to the discussion as a "spark" to ignite a VERY painful topic all over again.
N's are very confusing to the best of us. Having a close encounter with an N is like being burned in a fire. You hurt. Your body, soul and mind hurts. S/time a "philosophical" discussion on the ''goodness of all people" hurts a raw wound.Also, it is "debatable" whether all people ARE good. That is my opinion. Ami
-
Bill, Ami and Hops:
I thought I gave her a great deal of support and I honestly felt I didn't get it in return.
Out of everything that I read the one thing that stands out to be is the line above. Because I think it is true. I think that Bill has reached out to me and been far more understanding than I have had a chance to give back to him. And yet Bill was a big person and only, at first admitted half of that fact, instead he forgave me and I do see his point.
I guess it is like Ami said we are all at different stages of our recovery.
Lise
-
Thank you, Lise. I liked you the moment you 'walked in the door,' and I still feel that way. I don't want you to feel that you have to be 'careful' about what you say to me. I don't use anger as a weapon. If you ever have any issues with me, please let me know. I realize now that the shortcut to this situation was just to say how I felt right away (not so easy sometimes). When you have strong feelings they seem so 'obvious' but they aren't to other people at all. Thank you, Ami. We should call you "The Negotiator."
Bill
-
:: applauds Bill and Lise ::
To be able to identify your feelings, articulate them, be respectful, and come to a resolution as you've done is commendable, especially considering your (our) background and issues. I'm blown away at how well you've conducted yourselves.
Joy
-
Hi Bill,
Thanks, I appreciate that you like me when I walked in the door :D
Trust me, I won't hold back from speaking my mind.
I'll be honest now...I want to connect with you but I'm not sure how. Your story is still in pieces to me and I have been so self absorbed that I am missing some things. Is your story posted anywhere here on the board?
The other thing is that you seem to reach out supportively to others and I rarely, since I have been on the board, see you asking for support or reaching out, could I be wrong? I hope that this does not get taken the wrong way or that I anger you again but if so then we can just try to work this one out too. (We will get Ami to negotiate). I always wanted to try group therapy :D
My boss gave me an extension on my deadline until Monday. So what do I do? Procrastinate and goof off although I would not call this goofing off completely. Now I am just taking my time and moving through my work more slowly.
-
Lise, I'm supposed to be working too and the mistake is to have my email running and dinging every time someone posts. I don't know how other people do it but I quickly forget where I've posted unless I check that little x at the bottom to be notified. Anyway Lise, you missed my story which was posted several moons ago, where I asked for and received a tremendous amount of love and support. I came in much like you, bruised and battered from something almost inexplicable. I seem to get most of the support I need now just from the give and take of talking (or just listening) about things of concern to everyone. It is amazing, but almost every facet of our experience comes up sooner or later. I think about some issue and then there it is, someone is talking about it. Or something comes up that I have yet to think about. I have done a fair amount of group therapy and it doesn't compare to the wealth of experience and wisdom that is brought to this board. I may work on posting to the story board some time but frankly I am sick of talking about 'Randy!' I take that as a very good sign of progress. I would have to go back earlier in time, but it doesn't seem like the right time to do it. Talk to you later, it's back to the spread sheets!
Bill
-
Dear Gab...I too am dealing w/ the aftermath of a saintly N. When I last saw my NPH, we were sitting in front of our priest, while he was spouting lies about my mental state. Only 1 person from my parish will speak to me now. He's effectively done a smear campaign throughout the church. One of the most disturbing aspects, I've had to face lately, is that saintly N's choose allies that are most forgiving, have a strong sense of guilt & believe in the goodness of others. What better narcissistic supply could there be, than those innocents that fill up church pews? And to have a priest side w/ them...all the better for the N. After all, who'd dispute a priest? For me, one of the things that hurts most, is that my NH not only terrorized my emotions, trust & violated everything good in me, but he really hit me in my spiritual beliefs. A sacred part of me that I never would've believed could be shaken.I feel badly for my priest & parisheners who are but pawns in my NH's game. It's cruel what he's still doing to them. It's frustrating that I can't make them see the Truth. All I can do is pray for them. Know that you are aware & safe now and that God knows what's really happening. Reading your posts has made me feel that I'm not alone in this sordid aspect of N games. The saintly N knows how to push those buttons that strike at our core belief systems. I've found sites that deal w/ only this issue & now know that it's much more prevalent that I orginally thought. You are in my prayers Lise. Peace in Christ, Safe
Hi Safe,
How are you? Is your strory around anywhere were I can read it?
Thanks for this above. It helps to know that there are others that know about the Church N.
Have a good evening,
Lise
-
Sorry, Lise and Bill, if I made things more difficult.
You guys are doing fine.
Okay if I say something about me?
I think I was triggered by your description of your anger, Bill.
(Chairs flying, etc...)
Aha. I am pretty alert to signs of temper and such.
Maybe it was a very healthy thing for you to explode in the restaurant.
I think it spooked me, though.
So then when you mentioned to Lise that you felt angry with her...
I hopped in.
So to speak.
Hopping out, no offense taken and my apologies for offense given,
Hops
-
Well everyone, I’ve decided against my better judgment to speak up here.
Bill, in all honesty, I had the same reaction as Hops when I read what you wrote.
My gut literally clenched when you said “I confess I've become a little angry with you” after having said: “I am a very violent person now.”
I read that and literally sat back and said “whoa – wow, not good.”
Having been raised in a violent household, your words most likely triggered me.
I didn’t post anything at first, because the thought occurred to me that perhaps your anger arose from hurt. Not being biased here - just speaking from experience, the males I have known are more likely to refer to anger than hurt.
Was it hurt at the root of the anger?
Peace
-
Hi Hops,
I don't think that you have to apologize for making things more difficult...I'm new to this forum but it is an open forum and unless I am missing something we are all supposed to have a "voice." I would say that if someone becomes abusive or hurtful then the board would take steps to eliminate that person? Your comments were just coming from your perspective and from your desire to speak - nothing to apologize for that.
We are are healing here and like someone said we are at different stages. I liked your input and I appreciated your attempt at support.
Lise
-
Hi Peace,
That is a good question "is it hurt at the root of the anger?" I know at the root of all of my anger is plently of hurt...I think that Bill did feel hurt and he did attempt to express that.
Perhaps more was read into his story than what was actually there?
Thanks for your comments.
Lise
-
I am going to respond here b/c I have the' credibility'(unfortunate) of being an abused wife..
I want to say that I don't think that a fight between two men ,in that situation, was what could be termed "violence".If a man was hitting a weaker woman-- that would be "violence"
Peace,of course, you would be sensitive to any "images" on expressed anger. I totally understand. I have immense respect for you.
I am going to say s/thing very controversial. I think that men in our society have been 'feminized". Men are not allowed to be "men ,which is different than woman. Men express themselves differently among themselves than with woman(hopefully).If this were a man "pushing a table" against a woman, I would agree(completely)
I think that the 'pushing of tables " has to been seen in the context of two men and not in the context of violence. That is my opinion.I think that it is really sad that so many men have lost the "ability" to be different than woman. That is my opinion.. Ami
-
The problem with email of course is that are no facial clues to go with the words. I was being facetious about being 'a violent person' because Randy deliberately set me up to appear that way. Randy set me up and knocked me down like a bowling pin, as the saying goes. When a male disrespects another guy in front of others, it's literally asking for a fight. It's the way it works between guys. I was in fist fights all the time growing up (I didn't start a single one BTW). Honestly, it's just not that big of a deal between guys. Punches don't do anyone any real damage and they aren't intended to. If you've never had male hormones you'll probably never understand this.
There are ten years of context here that I can't provide at the moment so this is really not easy for an outsider to understand or for me to explain simply. What I didn't realize at the time was that he had been talking about me for months to the group at large and his coterie of sycophants about my 'anger problems.' He was laying the background for the ambush. (He explained away all his angry ex-women friends to me in the same way--they had 'anger issues.") Anyway, I was just ignoring him, not being angry or confrontational, so he needed to provoke me to 'show everybody' and that's just what he did. I didn't see it coming, but in hindsight I guess I should have. I didn't hear about my 'anger problems' until afterwards, and then I knew. Randy is an extremely calculating, clever and talented manipulator, which is why he's an N.
Bill
-
Thanks for this Bill.
Randy sounds a lot like Christine...there I said the N saint's name. She is so good at what you described "extremely calculating, clever and talented manipulator." It just blows me a way...she did a similar thing to me, trying to provoke me to make me look like the angry one, all for the sake of saving her image. People in my Parrish social circle think that I am the aggressor and she is being distressed by me. I had to leave my Parrish and take a low profile around my circle of connections. Christine has smeared me to others has being " angrily disordered or a Borderline or something." It hurts, I feel like I have been discarded and treated like dirt.
Did you leave your parrish or church? Were you ever able to reveal the truth of what happened to anyone in the group? Did others catch on to what Randy was doing?
Lise
-
In one of th earlier posts on this thread, someone alluded to the "saintliness" of Ns. UGH! No, triple UGH!!! I hate, hate, hate this aspect of the N's personality. So often, the abuse and hurt and demean deliberately only to have some "rational" excuse for it (in their minds only). They act the "martyr" who sacrifices everything for others when the truth is they are the most selfish and self-centered people on this earth.
I have both an Nmom and Nsis who play the "martyr" role to the hilt. THey claim to be strong, long-suffering people who have to put up with sooo much from others. They claim to sacrifice everything for the sake of others but in reality, all their actions come from a place of selfishness and wanting to APPEAR the martyr to others.
If you ask these Ns what their faults are, they can't come up with a single one since they think they are perfect. Real saints and martyrs don't have a selfish bone in their bodies.
So I tend to be sensitive to people who display "saintly" or "martyr" like behavior. There's nothing good about a martyr and real, earth-bound saints don't need to talk about how saintly they are. Their actions, always governed by the good it will do others, speak volumes.
Of course, it makes sense that Ns think of themselves as saints since they place themselves on a self-appointed throne, far above the ground where the rest of we mere mortals live. Their holier-than-thou behavior can sometimes be overwhelming and at all times is meant as just another way to demean the value of everyone else around them.
-
In one of th earlier posts on this thread, someone alluded to the "saintliness" of Ns. UGH! No, triple UGH!!! I hate, hate, hate this aspect of the N's personality. So often, the abuse and hurt and demean deliberately only to have some "rational" excuse for it (in their minds only). They act the "martyr" who sacrifices everything for others when the truth is they are the most selfish and self-centered people on this earth.
I have both an Nmom and Nsis who play the "martyr" role to the hilt. THey claim to be strong, long-suffering people who have to put up with sooo much from others. They claim to sacrifice everything for the sake of others but in reality, all their actions come from a place of selfishness and wanting to APPEAR the martyr to others.
If you ask these Ns what their faults are, they can't come up with a single one since they think they are perfect. Real saints and martyrs don't have a selfish bone in their bodies.
So I tend to be sensitive to people who display "saintly" or "martyr" like behavior. There's nothing good about a martyr and real, earth-bound saints don't need to talk about how saintly they are. Their actions, always governed by the good it will do others, speak volumes.
Of course, it makes sense that Ns think of themselves as saints since they place themselves on a self-appointed throne, far above the ground where the rest of we mere mortals live. Their holier-than-thou behavior can sometimes be overwhelming and at all times is meant as just another way to demean the value of everyone else around them.
Applause - Applause and more applause!!!!
I could not be more soothed by reading your post.
The saintly N who smeared me to my church loved to play the suffering martyr, she had a way of leaking her sufferings to a few others; they would send out these emails saying "please pray for her she is suffering so on and and so forth."
Once she was asking in prayer for God to give her some suffering so that she could alleviate other suffering in the world. She was trying to ask God what she would need to do in order to prepare for the physical suffering God was going to give her as well as what kind of suffering God would give her. The only reason that I knew this is because she was praying at a friend of mines house, who was another church N, who claimed to have the gift of prophecy and was trying to help saint N know, through her "gift," how she would suffer.
It was all very strange stuff for me. I thought to myself if you really want to do something to help the suffering in the world then go to the grocery store and spend $500 on food to make bagged lunches and then take them to the homeless section of people sleeping on the street and feed them, in other words labor in love and kindness and give of your time to those who have nothing, eat with the homeless.
I did not get to ask God how I could prepare myself when I was abused day in and day out by an N mom....why should she get to be prepared for her suffering an then get the honour and attention that she will receive for it too..
I'm disgusted with this N saint.
-
In one of th earlier posts on this thread, someone alluded to the "saintliness" of Ns. UGH! No, triple UGH!!! I hate, hate, hate this aspect of the N's personality. So often, the abuse and hurt and demean deliberately only to have some "rational" excuse for it (in their minds only). They act the "martyr" who sacrifices everything for others when the truth is they are the most selfish and self-centered people on this earth.
I have both an Nmom and Nsis who play the "martyr" role to the hilt. THey claim to be strong, long-suffering people who have to put up with sooo much from others. They claim to sacrifice everything for the sake of others but in reality, all their actions come from a place of selfishness and wanting to APPEAR the martyr to others.
If you ask these Ns what their faults are, they can't come up with a single one since they think they are perfect. Real saints and martyrs don't have a selfish bone in their bodies.
So I tend to be sensitive to people who display "saintly" or "martyr" like behavior. There's nothing good about a martyr and real, earth-bound saints don't need to talk about how saintly they are. Their actions, always governed by the good it will do others, speak volumes.
Of course, it makes sense that Ns think of themselves as saints since they place themselves on a self-appointed throne, far above the ground where the rest of we mere mortals live. Their holier-than-thou behavior can sometimes be overwhelming and at all times is meant as just another way to demean the value of everyone else around them.
Hello Sunblue,
My sentiments and 'belief' exactly regarding the 'self-sacrificing' St 'Martyred' N's, and now, can rightly discern one a mile off and keep my distance. Had an incident with one earlier on this year, which I shared here on board, and had rightly discerned all along, yet felt awful for being 'suspicous.'
Genuine people do things quietly,very often no-one knows, without the resounding trumpets and looking around for acclaim and recognition, instead, they just get on with it, quitely, and selflessly.
Oddly enough, recently remembered, years ago now, my BIL referring to NM as 'Saint ----', seemingly, he had her sussed way back then.
Excellent profoundly stated posting.
Thank you.
Love, Leah
-
Yup, that's the thing about these self-appointed "Saint Ns". They make you feel bad for being suspicious of their actions until it becomes clear that you are indeed right, that their actions are based completely on their own selfish needs.
Reminds me of a comment my Nmom said to me awhile back. Our church sponsors charities several times a year, particularly at the holidays. At Christmas and Easter, our church has a program where you pick a "tag" with a child or needy family's name on it with a "wish" list of items they need or want. Parishioners pick a tag, buy items and wrap them and return them to the church for distribution. This small act of kindness is "anonymous", for obvious reasons. Children like to think that Santa or the Easter Bunny provided them gifts, not a Jane Doe. Also, the focus is on the person in need, not those doing the giving. I participate in these activities every year gladly and try to be very generous in my gift giving to these children or families. Once when wrapping up some of these gifts, my Nmom responded, "Aren't you going to sign your name to the tag?" I explained to her that I wasn't and the reason for it. She just shook her head and said, "Well, I wouldn't do it then. How will anyone know that you were the one giving the gifts?"
Obviously, she just doesn't get the concept. I also volunteer at my church as a catechist teaching 6gh grade students as well as other activities. Looking back, I realize now that I can't remember my Nmom, Nsis or co-dependent dad ever volunteering to help out with anything. My Nmom, being the materialistic and power-seeking person she is, will write a check to rare charities, but frankly, the money never comes out of her own pocket. She arranges to get her company to sponsor the charity and write the check. But she has never once volunteered her time or effort in any way to benefit someone else, especially someone she doesn't know. Kind of goes against the concept of being a "martyr" or "saint" doesn't it? When it comes down to it, they don't emulate saints in any way at all.
My Nsis, too, is even worse in this "martyr" department. She is the type that will flaunt her good luck in life by buying expensive gifts for her family (thankfully, neither my brother and I have nothing to do with her anymore and so aren't the recipients of these gifts any longer). However, in addition to pointing out how "rare" or "expensive" or "clever" these gifts are, she will keep a running tab comparing what she received in return. If it doesn't "add up" to the same amount she gave, she feels offended, slighted and wronged. My Nmom does the same. It's always a "tit for tat" situation. She will never buy a little gift for someone or engage in an act of kindness for someone unless she knows it will be returned. It is so opposite what both my brother and I believe.
I guess the truth is that Ns just don't possess giving hearts. They don't value or understand why it's important to give of yourself to others without the expectation that it will be returned. I think subconsciously, deep, deep down, a true N is terribly envious of those who very obviously have hearts and can express their generosity in human ways.
-
Hi Bill,
Just wanted to thank you for explaining - I appreciate it.
I am sorry for the misunderstanding.
My father was a very violent man. He went through a period where he would take furniture and throw it against the walls (and I am talking about a couch that can seat 3 - he was very strong). So I tend to get alarmed at expressions of anger and violence.
My heart breaks at the thought of all that you have gone through as a result of raNdy. These types of people are unbelievably frustrating to deal with. IME it has been useless to try and get through to them, or fight them – they can turn on a dime and leave you spinning in the dust.
Thank you again,
Peace
-
I've never been much of a church-goer, Lise. I am very spiritual, but I lean towards the Buddhist view of the universe. Some of the nicest people I've ever met go to church though. I just can't discuss Jesus with them.
This was a social group that met once a week to walk around a scenic lake and make travel and evening plans together. I did it nearly every week for over 10 years. I had a long discussion (email) with one woman in the group. She is part of Randy's worshipful coterie and didn't have a clue that he is not what he seems . She swallowed Randy's inventions whole and fed them back to me verbatim, not realizing that he was simply using her as a tool for his own purposes. I told her that, that Randy was very manipulative, someone with NPD and did not have one ex-woman friend who would speak to him. I just got the blank stare and didn't really expect anything else. I didn't even bother much with anyone else after I heard all the whisperings and was excluded from all social events. I saw no point to it. Randy, in his desire to 'teach me a lesson' let it be known that he wouldn't attend any event I was invited to. The subtle implication being that anyone who invited me would ALSO be on the sh*t list. If you remember, he was the main social center for evening activities. But with stand-up friends like this, who needs enemies? But I'm not bitter about it. Bitterness is a huge waste of time and energy. (Well, you have to do a little of it). Thanks for caring Lise. I DO feel your support.
Bill
-
I didn't even bother much with anyone else after I heard all the whisperings and was excluded from all social events. I saw no point to it.
Your reaction was a lot like mine in that I realized that there are some battles that are just not worth fighting.
I was not too concerned about this N woman when I initially pulled away from her and her group.
At first I projected on to her my good qualities and I was still thinking that she is perhaps just very humble (not that I am) and that is why she never says much...I can see now that it was actually her form of control - she just feigned humility.
The wonderful thing about all of this is that it has forced me to get creative and find anonymous ways to serve God aside from ministry with others. There is a lot that one person can do to help others when no one is looking and it helps to kill my pride everytime I do it. God can take the pain and ugliness of life and work it into an art of beauty if we let him.
Luv,
Lise
-
Hi ((((Gabben))))=
I think of wacky counselors as "psycho- therapists". When one unburdens themselves with a therapist and the treatment is improper, it feels like a creepy violation, like when a medical doctor performs an intimate exam and does or says something "off". A good and ethical counselor actually makes things safer.
Hope things are better for you, and you carry some N-repellant with you at all times!
Love,
Changing
-
It's very ok, Peace. Your father sounds like he was a bully. I'm very sad that you got dealt such a parent.
Bill