Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ami on November 14, 2007, 11:02:00 AM
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I am just frustrated and I am going to ''air" it. There is a person who has been belittling me for a year. I have been like a "boxer" dodging back and forth.I feel very 'badly" for the person b/c she had a horrible life( worse than mine) HOWEVER,once I got her "off me", I felt sorry for her again again and went back and was "nice" and the same belittling started all over again.
I have a friend who saw the belittling and would NEVER engage ,again. Not me--.
I am so angry ,but I must think about WHAT lesson I can learn.
I guess that I don't feel like I have the right to say,"NO" or "No more" IF I feel sorry for a person.
Sounds like a pattern to me. I always denuded myself for my M ,partly b/c I felt so sorry for her that she was so insecure.
I could really hit s/thing,I am so angry. Ami-
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Similar experience - I struggle a lot with feeling like a big meanie for telling people I feel sorry for/compassion/sympathy/pity/whatever that they need to treat me decently, nonetheless - that is my dad's m.o. I'm a big meanie unless I throw down all boundaries and allow whatever vandalism of my soul he feels like and call it 'good.' So it isn't as hard to have boundaries with people I don't know as with people that are closer - much much harder.
I am going to think about the main issue you bring up and get back to you (have to pump, visit the baby, go to a meeting, eat lunch), but in the mean time - I am so excited that you are feeling angry and relatively on time right? Not a decade later!
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BLESS YOU,Iphi !!!
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Yup, I agree with Iphi, Ami. Your M made you feel bad about yourself for 'hurting' her whenever you had an emotion of your own, or one she didn't approve of, or ran counter to the way she wanted you to feel, and/or she withheld love whenever you got too independent or uppity, so you just stifle yourself whenever your own 'selfish, hurtful' wants come up. Extremely frustrating!! You become trapped in an endless loop, damned if you do, damned if you don't. My own M did this too and I hadn't previously thought of her as an N, but it is VERY N-ish. Thanks for 'airing' this Ami. It brought up my own stuff.
Bill
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Dear Bill,
This post is so "right" on that it takes my "breath away". How did you figure this out? It is 'my life"in a microcosm----bleh.
Love to You, Ami
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HI Ami,
Glad to hear that you are angry and so you should be. I think that forgiving too easily is so unhealthy. People need to EARN forgiveness. It comes back to boundaries practise, practise,practise is the only way you can learn to enforce them. Make our boundaries for yourself and leave the outcome be what it may. My experience is that people with healthy boundaries do not get abused........... they get out.
Practising mine daily, with difficulty a lot of the time, may I add.
Axa
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This particular interaction was a "blessing" to me.It showed me the whole "microcosm" of my life. S/one violates me. They seem "pitiful". I cater to them and not 'care" for myself. I go against myself b/c my "pity" for them overrides my 'care ' for myself. I get taken in .
I feel "horrible' about myself b/c I have no 'self respect". That is my life with my M.
My friend watched this person and said,"I will have nothing to do with her,". I said,"I feel sorry for her."My friend did not let 'guilt" make her denude herself--bleh.
That is why I was so angry.
Ami
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I am much the same way Ami. My empathy light goes on for everybody whether they deserve any or not. It's virtually automatic and I often regret it and feel angry and stupid and perplexed about it later.
Bill
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Dear Bill,
What do you think that the deeper issue is with it? I am going to write(journal) about it. For me, I bet it is fear of s/one's anger---bleh . Ami
(((((((((((((Bill)))))))))))))))))
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I think that forgiving too easily is so unhealthy.
I like this line - We can't just forgive or then we become a doormat.
People need to EARN forgiveness.
This I disagree with. we can find forgiveness in our hearts even if the other person never knows what they did or how they wronged us. But it DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE HAVE TO TRUST THEM OR ENGAGE WITH THEN ANYMORE.
After I have worked through the pain and hurt of what other do, crying tears and feelings of anger that are sometimes accompanied by vengeful thoughts (where I have to pray for them instead), I find that I can suddenly see, I see their pain and fear and why they did what they did. Also, I see that at some point I made a decision based on "self" that put me in that position to be hurt. Just like I brought into my saint N therapist special promise of love, really it was a play on my unfulfilled needs and wishes, I got hooked and then I got let down. I had a part. When I can see my part, the choices I made out of fear or self, I can release the other person and see them for who they are - it is freeing. It seems to me Ami that you have already done this with this person or are in the process?
It comes back to boundaries practise, practise,practise is the only way you can learn to enforce them. Make our boundaries for yourself and leave the outcome be what it may. My experience is that people with healthy boundaries do not get abused........... they get out.
This is true for me; the more I set boundaries, practicing courage or a leap of faith, the stronger and easier it is to set boundaries and to discern others characters before the drama starts. It is like you said to me Ami, "the hole" we get the point where we just take a different street rather than fall in. But life is full of holes and the different street will even have one if we don't keep our eyes open.
Love you,
Lise
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Lise, I think it's so true that we play a role in whatever happens to us, but one thing I think you are overlooking is that there really ARE 'predators' out there, people who have the need to use others for their own gratification. Child molesters and rapists are the worst examples. Yes, they were victims of lousy parents probably, but so what? I really don't care. N's are often (not always) predators as well in search of their own gratification at the expense of others who are particularly vulnerable to them. What they do isn't 'illegal,' but it certainly isn't right either.
I play volleyball with someone who is a major N. I have compassion for his 'humanity' and the way he is trapped in his house of mirrors and self-defeating behavior and I often even like him when he is behaving like a normal human being for some reason (it's rare), but basically he prays on other people's vulnerabilities without any shame whatsoever because it makes him feel superior. Also, his grandiose need to be the center of the universe by throwing temper tantrums whenever things don't go his way, causes many people a great deal of emotional distress. In short, he takes as much as he can and gives back nothing but grief. I understand and share your impulse to be compassionate but some people just don't deserve much IMO.
Bill
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Ami, I know fear of anger is definitely part of it. I think there are about 58 things going on and it's making my brain tired thinking about them. :lol: It's a good question.
Bill
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Hi Bill,
As I was reading your post I was struck with the insight that perhaps I did NOT do anything wrong with this N woman, perhaps it is just like you say. She is a predator and was preying on my vulnerability, my need to be a part of and to have social connections and she did this under the guise of Christianity, calling herself an apostle.
Your stating that there actually are just people...predators that we run into never hit me so hard... because I blame myself so much.
No I did not do anything wrong. I often felt guilty with my mom too.
The following webpage was and is the best description of her, saintly N, it is her through and through, she is so good at looking like a loving innocent Christian.
http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/strategy_of_narcissism.htm
The priest at my church, who sided with her, is different from the pastor. She, the N saint would often complain to me that the actual pastor of my parrish would not even look at her 'he won't have anything to do with me" she used to say. She could not figure that out either. I could not figure that out either. I mean she had a following of disciples and had written a book, she was living the Gospel as far as I was concerned so why would he avoid her so much, I used to wonder? His avoidance of her was actually one of the first red flags for me; it began me questioning her or looking under the mask.
There was once a time when I invited her to a retreat ceremony that was very important to me. Well, she had already crossed boundaries, I babysat for her, I socialized with her why would I not want her to be at a very important occasion that related to our work. She said yes, of course, but she showed up late and left early all the while she had her head down and was seeming to be stressed about something.
There is a saying that I read somewhere that says never love anything that can't love you back.
The N that you play volleyball with, he does not know that he is an N, correct? I mean these people may be good inside but they just don't know what they are doing? I just have the hardest time believing that people exploit others so shamelessly...they have to be operating from the neck up?
Do you have any good reading suggestions on Ns?
Lise
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Sorry Ami...I know that this was your original post about forgiveness, I don't want to take it hostage.
Recall, we are the "voiceless" we want to be valued not devalued. An this situation for you is someone devaluing you...where is your voice in the situation? Like Bill says, it is about fear and perhaps the backlash that could come about if you were to give your precious voice to the situation and stand up for yourself directly, if you have not already done so? How do we speak our truth, use our voice, gain the respect and dignity that we deserve without hurting others? I know that if I can speak the truth to someone from a place of acceptance rather than anger, they will hear it better and might grow from it. But when I am still angry they are bound to just put up walls.
I once read that forgiveness is not letting someone off the hook.
Just this morning by bully roommate emailed the household (other roomies) complaining that someone took her coffee, she was angry which I have don't have too much problem with (just ask Bill), she ended the email telling everyone "not to respond." That was her way of controlling. She was afraid of our response. I had to email her back and tell her how I felt when I read that, I said "I felt squished." It would seem only fair that others would have an emotional response to an upset angry email and telling them to "not respond" is a subtle form of oppression...were is our voice? She chilled and apologized. She treats me with respect but inside I know that she mocks me.
Hope some of this helps,
Lise
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I think one thing I retain from my childhood faith is that everybody is already forgiven.
Mind you, that isn't necessarily exactly what I was taught to believe. But I do believe it.
So in a sense, my being hurt or angry or wary or wounded or scared or devastated doesn't really have anything to do with forgiveness, in my heart of hearts. Everybody's already forgiven. It's moot. I don't need to decide about it. It's done. It's not even my job, except at a personal practical emoto-growth level. (When I don't forgive, I'm emotionally constipated.)
What I can do though, is pay much more attention to whether I'm forgiving myself, as I err my way along, more quickly. In the moment, as it happens, until I get to the place where I, too, am already (before the moment) forgiven...and therefore I no longer writhe with shame and get so distracted.
I'd like to be able to screw up, hurt someone, or do whatever other failing I do, as it is a certainty I will...and be forgiven already. Assume it. (I do not mean make no effort to do what's right. I mean not spend time after a mistake writhing about it. I want to KNOW I'm forgiven, so I move directly to making amends, and continue living creatively.)
This sounds an awful lot like religion but I am not really wanting to use those terms. I think I'm talking about faith, not doctrine.
Rambling on,
Hops
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Hi Ami-
The title/feeling of the post reminds me of the standard song "I Fall In Love Too Easily"
I fall in love too easily
I fall in love too fast
I fall in love too very very hard
For it to ever last.
Love,
Changing
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WOW, Changing. Are you brilliant or WHAT? Ami
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Lise, you covered a lot of ground in your post to me! ..the actual pastor of my parrish would not even look at her 'he won't have anything to do with me" She could not figure that out either... She has no real insight into herself at all. Her only reality is what she can fool other people into believing and she is perplexed by people she can't manipulate.
...she showed up late and left early all the while she had her head down and was seeming to be stressed about something. She loathed not being at the center of the spotlight (and hated YOU for having it) and deeply resented the fact that she couldn't find a good enough excuse not to be there. This is so Randy.
There is a saying that I read somewhere that says never love anything that can't love you back. I think that is a great saying, but the problem with Ns is that they fool you into thinking they DO love you. I think that is the worst lie it is possible to tell and Ns don't hesitate for a minute to use it if it gets them what they want.
The N that you play volleyball with, he does not know that he is an N, correct? Lise, My volleyball 'friend' of many years (about 25) doesn't have even a small clue about himself. He has no ability to be critical of his behavior towards other people.
From my reading and my own thinking, I think the easiest way to view an N is as a child emotionally stuck at the age of 3(?)who at the same time possesses an adult's considerable intellectual capacity to understand how the world works. All very young children are completely narcissistic because they can't separate the world or anything in it from themselves, because there is no ME yet, (With no me,it is also not possible to feel shame). Everything in their universe is simply an extension of their own wants and needs. They reach for anything they want with a complete sense of entitlement to it. If they are blocked from getting if for some reason, they immediately try another another way. If they are frustrated too much they fly into a rage. Right is what works, Wrong is what doesnt work. Every single thing in their world is an object, including their mother, something to be manipulated until it gives you want you want. Or if it won't give you want you try to teach it a lesson!
This is where I think that NPDs are stuck. I have no idea why this happens. Genes and parenting, serendipity. Because they usually get away with it!? But nothing is for free. They still have no real sense of ME so they have to try to control everything in their world to feel any anchor to reality. They are extremely anxious unless they feel powerful.
And yet because of their intelligence and adult knowledge of the world they can and should be held accountable and they rarely are IME. They persist in their self-centered, destructive behavior because it usually works. They feel no sense of right or wrong--if it stops working they change out of pure expediency, nothing else. E, the N Volleyball player has been a new person lately. People have stopped showing up because they are just burned out by him. He cannot deny the fact they aren't coming anymore. So I told him why and I repeated their statements to me. I did this several times over the course of about a month. Well, he's a changed person now (but it won't last). He's 'happy' and doesn't get angry anymore. He saw the undeniable facts so he changed his behavior to effect a different outcome. Terrific! Fine and dandy, right? But it's pure manipulation. He did not change because it was the right thing to do or because he felt badly that his behavior was upsetting people and driving them away. He had none of those feelings. He changed because he wasn't getting away with it anymore! This won't last. People will start coming back and in no time he will be doing the same old things again, for just as long as he can get away with it. E is what I would calling a 'raging' N as opposed to a saintly N. He has almost no guile and is therefore quite 'obvious.'
Bill
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Dear Bill,
When I read your post,I STILL realize that I am in denial about my M(How long is denial until you get to the bottom? )
I see that you get the concept of N's , in the heart. How did you do it? I still have a fog over my eyes. I still say,"Is it that bad?". Then,I read your post and I KNOW that it IS that bad. It simply is .
.I noticed that when my son's were in first grade that they had more empathy and consideration THAN my M. I remember the moment that that thought "hit' me. I didn't know what to do with it.. .It is so sad.
Thanks for expressing it so clearly that it forces me out of more denial--bleh. Love Ami
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He's 'happy' and doesn't get angry anymore. He saw the undeniable facts so he changed his behavior to effect a different outcome. Terrific! Fine and dandy, right? But it's pure manipulation.
What amazes me is how in denial we are about these N's...I'm struggling with something, (I think) Ami is going through too; peeling another layer of denial off of the reality that our mom or saint N's are really this void of feeling bad about things or in other words actually have a conscious? It just blows me away...I've been trying to come up with a good analogy the best I can do it is like when suddenly the curtain is pulled back on a magic show and you just can't believe your eyes that the show was just an act.
My mom emailed me today saying that she is sorry for all that she ever put me through and how much she hurts just thinking about my pain and sadness, she is still trying to manipulate me into coming down to her house for TG. Now she is playing the I care about you card - as if!
I want so much to believe her and to think that perhaps this is her really changing now. My sister has been able to see through her ever since she was a little girl or at least she figured out that something was not right with her long before I did. I am still just barely coming to terms that in all of my life I have never been able to turn to my mom and pour even the slightest piece of my heart out to her, it is just hitting me, that is not right. I gave up trying a long a time ago because I knew that if I was to ever call my mom for support when I was going through hard times, she would go into a rage and have be reduced to tears.
Was either one of your parents an N? For some reason I thought that I read something about you saying your Father was an N but I guess in your last few posts you have made it clear that he was not?
Lise
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Dear Lise,
My M would play the 'caring card" ALL the time. It is so pitiful that I was so hungry that I always (with the exception of the last month) would come running back.
I was so hungry for love.
Ami
(((((((((((((Lise))))))))))))))))
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Dear Bill,
I wanted to thank you for the few things that you pointed out about my N therapist saint. I read your post but it took awhile for it to sink in. You highlighted three things and pointed out the truth of the situations, it was as if I suddenly had snapshots of reality into her selfless image driven world. I was able to see her, or the lack thereof, your post helped to evaporate the last remaining traces of disalusionment in my mind, I hope.
It is freeing to see the truth about her so clearly now. I realized that I did not even know who she really is...it was like a mirage.
I feel much better now.
Thanks Bill - Hope that you are having a good weekend?
Have you read Judith V's Nessecasry Losses?
Lise
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I was so hungry for love.
Hi Ami,
This afternoon I took a nap, I had a dream that I can't recall with the exception of the ending which was a Bold neon sign that said "FOOD." I awoke but I was not hungry. I realized then that what I was hungry for was praise.
I see my self doing a little recovery dance for therapists, as if I am a 2, 3 and 4 year-old twirling around saying look at me..."I'm healing", "I'm doing the work." "praise me!" My little girl never got that praise. I don't know if I am crying about that yet. I know that I am willing to give up the need to seek out praise, it would be freeing. However, those painful mourning feelings have not shown up yet.
I'm hungry.
Lise ((((((((((((AMI))))))))))))
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Dear Lise,
It is SO weird ,but I am really "feeling" those deep yearnings for love and they feel like a desperate hunger-----bleh.
Ami
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never love anything that can't love you back
Hi Bill,
I think the problem with the saying is the implied definition of loving.
As in, love = having no boundaries and leaving yourself open to exploitation and ruin.
You can love anybody.
That doesn't equate with letting yourself abandon yourself, so their dark side will hurt you.
That was a big lightbulb for me.
You can love them as a spiritual choice...but without the suicidal vulnerability our culture trains us in.
Hops
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Hops, I see what you mean. You don't have to let your love for someone allow them to abuse you. I have 'loved' all of the Ns I've known for their good qualities and everyone of them has had them, otherwise there would never have been any kind of relationship in the first place. I can STILL love their good qualities to this day, but it will be from arm's length or farther away. I think the saying has a lot of validity as a 'test' though. If all you get from someone is hurt they clearly don't love you and you shouldn't waste much love, if any, on them. I think it's a good test to do every once in awhile, esp if you have a 'history.'
One of the hardest issues for me is that I continue to like someone for their good qualities, despite all the jerky things they have done. I have an ex house mate who is very N and has wanted to stay in touch for the last 20+ years. I never initiate anything and I cringe every time he calls because I'm very conflicted, but he truly has some likable qualities and I'm not good at rejection. He doesn't have a small clue about what a jerk he is to people close to him though. He just got divorced (second marriage) from a very sweet person. He can list a dozen reasons why the marriage didn't work and everyone last of them was her fault. The truth was almost the exact reverse. His fragile sense of self can't handle the slightest defect on his part. I figure I can handle seeing him briefly about once a year and that's what I do.
Bill
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I just want to make it clear that I am not nearly so forgiving of Randy. The other Ns I've known didn't slip so completely under my radar screen the way he did. He has caused me so much deliberate damage it's just mind-boggling to me. He of course believes that all the difficulties were completely my fault and I deserve everything I got. I can thank my lucky stars that he still feels 'compassion' for me though!
Bill
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Lise, my father was definitely an N. I was in semi-denial of it I guess you could say. I made peace with him years before he died. That was possible because he changed considerably and could be generous and loving without being manipulative. I don't/didn't feel any big issues with him for a long time. Hiis N parenting caused me a lot of damage, but I think his own father caused HIM even more and he really had some awareness of both of these things (very unusual for an N!) I think he changed for number of reasons, mostly I think because my mother was going to leave him for good (55 years of marriage altogether) and that just terrified him so much she was able to drag him to marriage counciling.
' Trapped in the Mirror' is one book I've read, only half way so far. Elan Goulomb I think is the author. I've learned quite a bit from it but I thought it was a little weak in the middle. I've read all of Vaknins and Grossmans stuff that I could find, plus a whole lot of other stuff on the net, which I see you are familiar with. The net was my first and most important introduction to Narcissism and it is just the greatest resource, esp including this board. What is Necessary Losses about?
Bill
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Dear Hops,
Could you please explain(in as much detail as you can) the process you went through from abandoning yourself(which I assume you did with an N(ish) M)to getting to the "other side of the road" where you did NOT abandon yourself?
Thank you so very much Ami
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It wasn't all very conscious, Ami.
But a pivotal moment, even though I struggled with a lot of guilt about it, was when my mother was manipulating me by "calling in my brother" and had him tearing down the interstate from hundreds of miles away...and I realized it was all because I had said NO to her. NO I will not stay home and become Cinderella. I will give you a tray and comforts and be sure you are safe and well tended, and then I am going to see a friend. She woke up from a nap that day and I had covered ALL the bases, and left a note and everything she needed. But she had not wanted me to go out and she was PISSED (because she was no longer in control).
When I got home 2 hours later and realized what sort of drama she'd engineered (she knew how vulnerable I have felt about my bully N brother) -- I blew my stack. I said if you don't call him and make him turn around and go home right now, I am moving OUT. And I meant it.
Thou Shalt Not Blow Thy Stack was the 11th commandment. But in the last 9 years I've gotten angry at her twice, and it cleared out a lot of sludge. After the explosion (and I WAS sorry for the explosion, because I was so angry one time I had her literally shaking) -- I realized how seriously toxic the situation was and I think she did too.
I got back into my own shoes.
The way I relate to her now is always courteous and friendly, sometimes with some humor. But most of the time, there's no intimacy. She's comfortable (that's her norm) and I am no longer missing or yearning for intimacy with her. So a polite I'm-in-charge-of-arranging-your-wellbeing kind of relationship is what we have now, and it's peaceful. She no longer tries to get further obedience (doesn't boss me around much, and when she tries, i just say yes. No. I'll do it later. I'm not going to do that. Sure, I can do this. You're welcome. I'm glad. Sleep well, g'night. -- that's about our daily dialogue. I forgot: Here are your pills.) I'm not hostile at all, smile at her often, we share little jokes. I feel compassionate, just not close or especially interested -- old self-absorption by an N-ish person is DULL. I love her, but it's a detached and comfortable love, and has no drama in it.
Hope that helps, Ami. Best I can do. (I have noticed how much more peaceful and appreciative she seems to have become, so perhaps some of the grasping agony of being a histrionic-Nish person has faded for her. I'm glad.)
Hops
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Hops, I see what you mean. You don't have to let your love for someone allow them to abuse you. I have 'loved' all of the Ns I've known for their good qualities and everyone of them has had them, otherwise there would never have been any kind of relationship in the first place. I can STILL love their good qualities to this day, but it will be from arm's length or farther away. I think the saying has a lot of validity as a 'test' though. If all you get from someone is hurt they clearly don't love you and you shouldn't waste much love, if any, on them. I think it's a good test to do every once in awhile, esp if you have a 'history.'
One of the hardest issues for me is that I continue to like someone for their good qualities, despite all the jerky things they have done. I have an ex house mate who is very N and has wanted to stay in touch for the last 20+ years. I never initiate anything and I cringe every time he calls because I'm very conflicted, but he truly has some likable qualities and I'm not good at rejection. He doesn't have a small clue about what a jerk he is to people close to him though. He just got divorced (second marriage) from a very sweet person. He can list a dozen reasons why the marriage didn't work and everyone last of them was her fault. The truth was almost the exact reverse. His fragile sense of self can't handle the slightest defect on his part. I figure I can handle seeing him briefly about once a year and that's what I do.
Bill
Bill,
I think it is wonderful that can see through the N's lies but still stay objective and focus on their good. In the St Francis prayer it says that we are to seek to understand rather than be understood, seek to love rather than to be love etc.. This conflicts with my earlier saying of "don't ever love something that won't love you back." It is a catch 22 with the N. But I think you have found a way to be accepting, although you know that you don't have to be.
You seem to be able to set good limits and not set your self up. In AA, the Big Book, it says whenever you make decisions based on self you place yourself in a postion to be hurt.
Earlier I said that I have a part in the situation with my N saint therapist and then you said something to the effect that N's are predators. I believe my part in the situation with the saint N therapist was my blind willingness to believe that she could give me the kind of mom respect that I missed out on. I was believing a lie because of my own disillusionments - that was my part. However, I was not aggressive or exploitive or hurtful - no never.
Lise
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Lise, I learned about setting limits very painfully. It took many many lessons. I think I'm only just being able to get a handle on my vulnerabilities and not allow them to be exploited by N-ish people. IME it's dangerous to 'focus on their good" because then you forget how twisted they really are and before you know it you're regretting it. I think that basically this type of person is just not good to be around very much. I agree so much that one must not search for the parent they never had in other people. This is what I've done myself. That is when you make yourself so vulnerable to exploitation by an N.
Bill
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Dear Lise and Bill,
I agree that the "hook-in' for problems is wanting our parent in everyone-----bleh. Ami
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I can thank my lucky stars that he still feels 'compassion' for me though!
What, I'm confused, and N feeling compassion...are you being facetious or am I missing something again?
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I'm sorry Lise, I was being facetious, it's the problem with email. His 'compassion' for me is only a show for other people to manipulate them into seeing things the way he wants them to see it. He's just playing the saint.
Bill