Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gabben on November 17, 2007, 09:42:46 PM
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When I was 15, my sophomore year of highschool, I met a girl who I quickly became close friends with and eventually I confided my moms verbal and emotional abuse to her. It made her angry, she was the first supportive person I had ever met and she called a spade a spade, telling me that my mom was abusive. I told her "but she does not hit me, how can she be abusive?" My freind Mary taught me about emotional and mental abuse. The more I came to terms with the reality of my moms abuse, that it was my mom and not me that was bad, the more courage I got to start speaking up to my mom - big mistake, or was it?
My mom was always suspicious of my friends and she didn't like Mary. But she let me spend the night at her house one Friday night. I came home on Saturday morning to find my mom in a rage towards my adoptive father, this was fairly typical behavior for her. As soon as I walked through the door my mom turned her rage on me, I was beginning to reach my limits, especially with the new support I was getting from Mary. I wanted Mary and her parents to come back and get me like she said that they would the next time my mom started a verbal assult on me. As I reached for the phone to call her, the cord brushed up against my mom's arm, I froze. My mom got silent and then, in an evil calm voice, said "you just hit me, I'm calling the police." I could not actually think that she would do it, she did. When the police showed up, my mom acted sanely while pointing a finger at me claiming that I was abusing her.
The police never even asked me what happened, they put handcuffs on me and led me to the car. I was wearing penny loafers and a pink button down collar shirt, I didn't drink or use drugs, I was still virgin, I was in all academic classes on the tennis team - I was a good kid. I could not believe what was happening. I spent the weekend in Juvenal Hall, humiliated. At the hall a counselor brought me into his office and began questioning me, suspiciously. I told him that I did nothing wrong and that my mom was to blame. He got a disgusted look on his face towards me and said "you kids are all the same, always blaming your parents."
On Sunday my mom came to visit me - I could not believe it. She sat across the table telling me what a wreck I looked " I have never seen you look so unhappy, what is wrong with you?" She said. Tears were streaming down my face, I was so humiliated and angry that I couldn't not speak. She asked me for and apology when I would not answer she got up and walked out.
Later that evening my Dad came to pick me up - we drove home in silence.
Lise
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Dear Lise
I am SPEECHLESS at that betrayal. I am in AWE( the bad type of awe) . I cannot even find words to say about the "evil" of your M.
There is evil in the world. I was thinking of my M ,in terms that she allowed in evil and then became a "tool" for evil.
So, essentially,it was not "her" anymore ,but "evil" operating and almost "owning" a body.
My God, when I read your thread, I thought that there MUST be evil that the person lets in so much that they then "embody" evil.
Let me ask you s/thing, Lise. Does this memory have the 'proper" emotions ( deep,deep grief and pain)with it or are you emotions muted as you describe it? Ami
((((((((((((Lise))))))))))))
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To your questions but a couple of things first. BTW your compassion just brought tears to my eyes.
in terms that she allowed in evil and then became a "tool" for evil.
So, essentially,it was not "her" anymore ,but "evil" operating and almost "owning" a body.
Spiritual warefare...the devil loves the mentally ill.
If you think that that story is bad, you have not read anything - I'm just getting started but I don't want to one-up people with how bad my N mom was vs yours, if you know what I mean? We all had it bad we ALL HURT and the mourning is the same for each of us. I don't want to minimize others pain and because of this I never tell my story unless it is a therapist.
The reason that I wrote this is because last night I started having the memories. I have cried a few times. But I think, like you said, the pain is still there...perhaps I will sleep tonight better after some deep sobs, thanks for your response Ami.
Lise
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---Lise. You really did have deep,deep betrayal. I have been avoiding doing the the inner child exercises b/c they "hurt",but as you said, then you feel "cleaner' and 'lighter'
Lise---I want to affirm that you were betrayed so ,so deeply .I feel haunted by your story b/c you were betrayed by the friends family too. What is so pitiful was that you had a little hope and you were beaten down so much for the crime of having a little hope and strength.
I am getting dizziness come over me as a "sympathetic "response to your post. Lise, thank goodness that you found God . I am so "overwhelmed' at how horrible your story is that I cannot even "voice' it.
I am very glad that you shared b/c I think that it will be freeing for you,in time, that you expressed it. Love Ami
((((((((((((Lise))))))))))))))))
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Lise.
She was a very very sick woman.
I am so sorry for that terrible terrible moment and all that followed.
It is a crushing story.
(And you are not crushed. I know that.)
Are you alone a lot, now? I think you need warm loving hugs from a community that adores you.
Here's one.....(((((((Lise)))))))
Hops
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Dear (((( Lise ))))
My heart goes out to with true genuine experiential empathy.
You have been brave enough to share, quite openly, of your mother's evil behaviour.
To be honest, I don't feel comfortable about sharing it at this present moment in time. Though I have shared previously to a certain extent. Maybe, I just don't need to rehash it. That's a positive statement for my present position, in my journey.
In any case, someone affirmed that my mother had evidenced psychopathic tendencies in her life long behaviour. Another has said psychotic.
What has been done unto you, has been done unto me also. While my heart has no desire to label my mother, or indeed anyone, however. her history of behaviour is the deciding factor. Bad enough having to say that my mother is N, to place a P alongside, is quite something else!
Truth is, that there are many others out there, who likewise, suffer at the hands of a mother such as ours, hearts crying out in the wilderness of despair.
Have you ever read "A Child Called It?" His mother was evil. His father did nothing. My heart wept of all his mother had done.
They have no conscience. They are empty. Truth is, they are empty vessels filled only with contempt and envy for what they lack, as they see in others, what they lack --- they are then driven to destroy.
Reality, it's true, and we cannot hide from what is true.
(((( Lise)))) the light at the end of the tunnel is that you are now walking on the road to healing. Truly, you will heal, and you will have a new life of new beginnings, it's your journey, be at peace, for the journey belongs to you, as does the time-line.
Just keep sharing as you feel led.
Prayers for you along the way.
Much Love & Hugs to you,
Leah
Edit: Your mother, like mine, knew that no-one would believe her word against that of her child (mine is a classic Saint NP) both knew exactly what they were doing, both are very very clever, sadly, they chose not to put their cleverness to better use; for the good of others.
All very much 'behind closed doors' despite the outward signs of social status, affluence and respectability. So clever, that no-one can see what truly goes on. Any of it. All of it. Or maybe, they choose not to?! Turn a blind eye as a silent witness??
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((((((((((((Oh,Lise)))))))))))))))
I think the only reason my mother never thought of doing something like that is that it would have looked bad about our "family." Your mother was smart and cruel and knew just how to "get you." I also never suffered from physical abuse and my mother's tricks were a bit more closeted than yours. I am glad you are here. Please share your stories... it will help you to exorcise them.
Love, Beth
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Gabben: What did your new friend and her family do or say about that terrible injustice to you?
What did your adoptive father have to say? Why was he silent on the way home and why did he let the police take you away?
That you were left defenseless is a tragedy...... people want to believe the adult..... the mama..... is under control and loves her children.
Sometimes they don't..... sometimes you just survive and escape it.
You'll find people who understand here and you don't have to keep it under your hat bc you're afraid to one up other posters.
This place isn't about staying small and quiet so nobody will attack or demean you.... it's about letting the sunshine in so you can heal through shared experiences. Everyone believes you here..... without explaining..... just type and you're understood and beleived. What a gift.
I'm sorry you were treated with such cruelty..... you didn't deserve it. You deserved a mama who was kind and loving and you didn't get that. (((( Gabben))))
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Wow Lise-It makes me angry because I felt like I was you! The emotions ran high in me while I was reading it-I could feel it! Love to you and affirmation!
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Dear Leah,
I am so sorry that your M was like this,also. How horriible for you, I am so very,very sorry. Love Ami
(((((((((((((Leah)))))))))))))))))))
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Lise,
Thank you for sharing your story with us, first of all.
I am in a situation much like yours, except my 18 yr old daughter is the abuser. I am coming very close to filing for separation and living on my own. My 8 yr old is petrified about mommy and daddy splitting up, my 13 year old bottles her feelings and the 18 year old would like nothing less than to have my husband and children all to herself.
I'm tired of standing up for myself to a husband who is so totally snowed by this child. I'm weary of fighting this losing battle, so, I'm giving it all to God. I can't win for losin anyway. Everything has been turned back on me and I am the outcast in my own home, while I watch this 18 yr old child woo everyone over to her side against me. The only one who fully stands with me is my 8 yr old, and I never wanted this for her...to feel so torn by people.
We are not a family at all...we are an ILLUSION.
~Laura
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One thing that I did with both of my pregnancies----- was PRAY not to have daughters. There would have to be for a stronger person than I out there who could cope with a D.
I am sorry for all the pain. Family pain like that is devastating. Love Ami
(((((((((((Laura)))))))))))))))))))))
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I'm so sorry to hear that you had a mom like this ((((((hugs))))))
I hope you find peace from your past.
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Lise-
I am angry, sad and upset at what you have suffered from your NM. There are so many people who do not have children and would give anything to have a sweet daughter to love and care for. Your NM and F wasted a precious gift- an opportunity to love their daughter. I hope that you are taking good care of yourself, and avoiding anyone who is duplicious or gutless, You deserve to be well-treated,loved, treasured and protected.
(((((Lise)))))
Love,
Changing
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RM--
I hear you. I know you are going through some real devastation right now.
Please start a thread on what's happening with you.
Hops
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Hi Everyone,
Such compassion, understanding and encouragement from all these posts has touched me and helped in ways I'm not sure how to express other than to say thank you.
After I wrote my post on Saturday night and read Ami's response I was able to cry and release some old pain. Afterwards I felt better so I decided to take a break from my pain, get a way from the computer and watch a movie. I had 4 netflix's, I grabbed one movie, not knowing what it was and put it in the DVD. It was The Last King of Scotland about Amin, the ruthless dictator of Uganda in the 70's. He and his regime were evil at it's height. Towards the end of the movie, after he had been betrayed, he was about to take sadistic revenge, the betrayer called Amin "a child." He was a toxic ruler and his rage at the betrayal of his parents had morphed him into a hatred filled violent man.
On Sunday I wanted to unplug completely and nurture myself. I spent the day knitting, reading and resting. I'm glad that I did, despite my hurt and anger this morning, I feel more grounded and hopeful today yet this morning I can feel the anger in my heart at the years my mom's betrayal. I just sit with the anger and pain and imagine a little girl who is really angry ands kicking and screaming or a teenager who is frustrated and embarrassed residing in me. I let myself be - but I do have the voices telling me that I am not very Christian like to feel so much anger.
When I got to work today I opened the office fridge and noticed that someone had ate all of my pudding cups over the weekend. I wanted to scream...over pudding cups! -- I had to laugh!
To Leah - Yes, I read A Boy Named It - What a story huh? Thank you for your warm and insightful post. You are a gentle person. I like that you don't label people, that is spiritual and loving to me and it is causing me to reflect.
There were a lot of questions as I read through all the posts and I hope that I can answer some.
The eventual outcome of all of this is a long story which I can or might tell later. Here are a few details: my girlfriend, Mary, found out on Monday when I returned to school what had happened. That was the last straw for her and her family who had become quite protective of me (how blessed I was). Her father was a police officer, I don't know what strings were pulled or what happened behind the scenes but eventually, after several months, I was placed in the county dependent unit and became a ward of the state moving in with a foster mom who was a loving and kind ex-nun. Over a period of 10 years she had over 250 teenage girls come through her home (another blessing in my life). We are still close.
A few weeks after the juvenile hall episode, my mom, in Hyde mode, drove me to a mental hospital and tried to have me committed. She left me there against the hospitals request that she not. Then, she, in Jekyll mode, came to pick me up and acted as if nothing happened.
My father was struggling, he was not against me, he wanted to help me and the family but he was confused and frightened. My mom was so abusive to him and he was pretty beaten down by the time that I was a teenager.
Thank you all for your posts.
Lise
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Hi Lise,
Truly lovely to hear from you.
Just a quick message to say;
The Last King of Scotland about Amin, the ruthless dictator of Uganda in the 70's.
Watched the movie on DVD last month, with immense interest, and so agree with your synopsis.
For what you have been through, my heart sincerely cries out for you ((( Lise )))
Will be back later, and will post again.
Love, Leah
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Lise: but I do have the voices telling me that I am not very Christian like to feel so much anger.
Actually, the Bible says "be angry and sin not." Nowhere does God tell us in His Word that we are not allowed to FEEL our feelings...He even felt feelings. You go ahead and feel angry and then give it over to God to deal with it as only He knows how to.
Hugs,
Laura
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Thanks Laura,
I think of the Saints like St Francis and I think of how peaceful, gentle and accepting they were. I guess they did not have N moms.
Lise
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I realize HOW much guilt I have put on myself for not "following" the Bible 'right ,over the years.. Actually,I took untold abuse b/c I misinterpreted the Bible.I was very,very wrong. I misunderstood God. He loves me. He doesn't want anyone to abuse me or hurt me(or you)
Now, I am feeling angry when I SHOULD like when an N mother tries to take away my reality . Lise, for what your M did to you,you have "righteous anger". There is nothing wrong with all the emotions that you feel.
If you don't face them ,you will "perfume over a swamp--"IMO. The Bible tells us how to get out of bondage---You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free. Everything about God is truth---- not lies.
You will find your way.I can already see that you have made progress. Do you feel it? Love Ami
(((((((((((((Lise))))))))))))))))
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Dear Lise,
Feeling angry, or annoyed,
is so very different
to acting out with anger against someone, with rage and fury.
That's the difference.
It's what you do with your feelings that matters most, especially to God, as is your concern.
Hope that helps.
Love, Leah
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Lise your story is heart wrenching and the insight into your mom through her actions - hideous. I can see so clearly in my mind's eye that betrayed girl who you were. To not even stop at the first outrage of juvenile but to proceed to try to have you committed, and she would have if she could have - clearly - is so horrifying. It's really chilling how shamelessly she picked you up and drove you home as if... it was no big deal. It's so sick. It's sick, but not in a way that I'm inclined to excuse her from her responsibility.
This book is mentioned with some frequency on the board and you may have already discussed this (I am not keeping up with posts too well, at the moment), but have you read People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck?
Also, I smoked too and it seems that it served a similar function in my life as in your life and some other posters here. Quitting was part of a whole larger pattern of change in my life and came - as I became more ready to begin to face the other aspects - it all connects. I know so well the problem about personalizing shame and inward critical voices. I'm working on that too.
It is so heartening that you had a true and steadfast friend and her family that came through for you. They really saved you. And having a foster mother who was good to you also. I am sure you made the most of these experiences and it gladdens my heart that people were there for you and you found refuge.
Take good care of yourself.
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Dear Lise,
It hit me ,of course ,you would be afraid of any feelings. You had "normal" self protection and you ended up in Juvenile Hall and then a mental institution b/c of it.
It is amazing how clear headed you are after all that.She did not break you ,completely.
I get so angry at my M that ( and this is horrible) that I am happy thinking of her in Hell .I know that this is wrong ,but it helps me to think that God will really take care of it ,someday. He will avenge me much better than I could.
I try to forgive. Sometimes, I do.. Sometimes, I don't. Love to you Ami
(((((((((((((((Lise))))))))))))))))))
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Hi Ami,
I'm beginning to feel that forgiveness is something to work for that takes more time for us with deeper anger and hurt. My hurt at the present situation can easily get confused with the old hurt of the past making me seem to myself that I am not a forgiving person. It is what everyone on this thread has validated for me that my anger is OK. I'm OK. My mom was not OK. What she did was not OK. It amazes me too that I have been able to come through such trauma in my life and still function on fairly normal levels.
As I look back on my life and I encourage you to do this is you have not already, I see God's hand carrying me. What a difference it makes to see this. He was truly grieved for my pain and losses. It was like He stopped me before I fell and I will never know what I could have fallen into had He not been there.
It is like the poem "footprints" when we look back and see only one set of footprints in the sand and God says that was when I was carrying you. As I look back in my life I can only see one set of footprints because I think that God has been carrying me since the day I was born and he has never put me down. I have to think it is like that for most of us with a N parent.
Lise
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((((((((((((Oh,Lise)))))))))))))))
I think the only reason my mother never thought of doing something like that is that it would have looked bad about our "family." Your mother was smart and cruel and knew just how to "get you." I also never suffered from physical abuse and my mother's tricks were a bit more closeted than yours. I am glad you are here. Please share your stories... it will help you to exorcise them.
Love, Beth
Thank you gratitude28 for your kind words and insight. I am glad that we are both here too. This board is another blessing. If I was not reading posts or had a daily outlet to express I might end up shutting down again or I might not be processing through as quickly as this board provides the means to.
Thank you for your encouragement!
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As I look back on my life and I encourage you to do this is you have not already, I see God's hand carrying me. What a difference it makes to see this. He was truly grieved for my pain and losses. It was like He stopped me before I fell and I will never know what I could have fallen into had He not been there.
It is like the poem "footprints" when we look back and see only one set of footprints in the sand and God says that was when I was carrying you. As I look back in my life I can only see one set of footprints because I think that God has been carrying me since the day I was born and he has never put me down. I have to think it is like that for most of us with a N parent
Beautifully Said,Lise Love Ami
((((((((((((((Lise)))))))))))))))))))
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---Lise. You really did have deep,deep betrayal. I have been avoiding doing the the inner child exercises b/c they "hurt",but as you said, then you feel "cleaner' and 'lighter'
Ami,
In one of your earlier posts you wrote the above. Never before this period of time in my life have I ever been so in touch with the outrage and hurt at the betrayal by those, my parents, that were supposed to love me the most.
My body has had a perpetual burning ache to it for months now...it is the strangest thing though, I don't mind the burning sensation because it feels like something is being purged out of me.
The tears and deep sobs have been coming in waves for months now. God is doing some intense healing. I suspect He is doing this for you too.
Yesterday was the first day in months that I felt a strong wave of peace and clarity, I found myself saying under my breath, "wow, I feel like a new person today." There is so much more to come though and so much more healing to work through, but those pockets of peace give me hope to continue.
Malachi 3:3
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Daniel 12:10 "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. (NASB ©1995)
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Dear Lise,
A long time ago, I was sitting on the sofa with my son( 2 yrs old). I was abandoned by my M. I had a bad H. It was raining out. A voice came deep inside me,"I will restore what the locusts(evil) had eaten."
I have heard this voice on other occasions.
Once, I was going to light a candle. A voice came to me,"Don't light that candle, you have gas." I stopped. Fifteen minutes later,lighting hit my yard and followed an underground electrical wire in to the house.
So, when I hear it,I know that it is Supernatural.
Many times, I have impressions .If they are strong ones, they are right.
When I heard the voice about restoring what the locusts had eaten,I took it to mean that God would restore all that my M had stolen from me:my core, my health,my spirit, confidence etc.
So,He promised me this. When I took the Scripture,You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free.",it worked b/c I have seen the truth about my M which eluded me up until this point.
Now, I am taking "Perfect Love Casts out Fear." b/c I really, really need this one-. Love Ami
((((((((((((Lise))))))))))))))))))
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I agree with all this. Just recently I have found comfort that my moms time would pass soon and I would somehow rise victoriously out of the ashes! I watch her slowly slide down that slippery slope and then she does something that surprises me. Like today she was on the radio promoting our store and she was great. I knew she had rehearsed everything she said so she had it down. But I guess I should not be surprised-she digs being in the limelight. But we WILL be vindicated-oh yes we will!
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Lise.
She was a very very sick woman.
I am so sorry for that terrible terrible moment and all that followed.
It is a crushing story.
(And you are not crushed. I know that.)
Are you alone a lot, now? I think you need warm loving hugs from a community that adores you.
Here's one.....(((((((Lise)))))))
Hops
Hops,
Thank you so much for this!
((((((((((((HOPS)))))))))))
Lise
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Wow Lise-It makes me angry because I felt like I was you! The emotions ran high in me while I was reading it-I could feel it! Love to you and affirmation!
I had never wrote the story out before and shared it with more than my T. It amazes me to see the loving feedback here. It has helped me get in touch with that hurt and devastated young girl I was and to feel all that old pain.
The sharing of our pain helps each other to get in touch with our stuff? Thank you for your comments and support.
Love,
Lise
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I'm so sorry to hear that you had a mom like this ((((((hugs))))))
I hope you find peace from your past.
Thank you Tayana!
Peace to you too.
Nothing in God's world happens by mistake, although God is not the author of evil, He will clean it up and turn it into something that helps others.
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Also, I smoked too and it seems that it served a similar function in my life as in your life and some other posters here. quitting was part of a whole larger pattern of change in my life and came - as I became more ready to begin to face the other aspects - it all connects. I know so well the problem about personalizing shame and inward critical voices. I'm working on that too.
Take good care of yourself.
Just yesterday I felt a break through with smoking. It was as if my "little girl" was saying I don't need this anymore. I smoked my last cigarette around the afternoon. Normally I would have gone to the store to buy another pack but I just didn't feel like it. I have long since stopped being hard on myself about it and I just started accepting it as my comfort, like a pacifier.
My sister and I were talking on the phone yesterday morning about her three little ones who still all use a pacifier, the oldest being 4. Her oldest son is actually 11 (he no longer uses a pacifier) LOL...she weened him when he was about 4 1/2. She said she prided herself on being the kind of mother who would never let her kids have pacifiers. But then, after her first son was born, she realized that they need that comfort and just to acknowledge that comfort and let them have it. When people ask her when she is going to ween her other children she says "I don't know except I know that they won't be going to college with it!" LOL.
She told me that our mom weened us too early and made us feel ashamed of our need for oral comfort with certain comments she used to make to us. I have no idea if this plays a part in my smoking or not.
All I know is that for today the desire to smoke is gone and if it comes back then I won't beat myself up...there are far worse things and ways I could be harming myself or attached to at this point. I also ask God everyday for the grace, strength and healing to allow me to let go. I know that behind the habit is old stuff and attachments, which are slowing moving out of me as I heal.
Peace and thank you for your response and compassion.
Lise
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(((((Lise)))))-
I applaud your courage and determination. I know that the sharing was hard , that somehow you felt it was your secret, rather than the crime of your mother. I pray that her despicable treatment of an obviously sweet and vulnerable child will never define or confine YOU. Whatever was done to you, you remain innocent, good, lovable and deserving of love!
The toxins in food we eat, the air we breathe, the water we drink, and yes the N poison that we injest as children can all cause harm, from the cellular level up. You are wise Lise in pursuing N poison chelation treatment. Now you can be healthy and no longer carry that sickness around with you.
I wish you health, happiness, joy and peace as the reward for your bravery. You are precious.
Love,
Changing
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Lise, the memories - while they are as horrible to endure now, as then - will help you heal if you expose them to fresh air & sunlight - get them out and share them. But you can only do this when you feel able to - when you're ready.
For me, this was the toughest part of the healing process. I used a journal to write the same events - over & over - until I'd desensitized myself enough and had processed the emotions enough that I could talk about them with my T; later, I could post them here. And Twiggy still brings me little snippets of memory... tho' not as often now; nothing so intense as the first couple batches. It helped sharing them here because I don't feel the shame anymore of what happened. It WAS horrible. What happened to YOU was HORRIBLE. I know how it hurts, not being believed - when you're telling the absolute truth - when the Nparent has completely lied about you and tried to convince you that what you know happened, didn't happen that way at all.
((((((((((Lise)))))))))))
Hi Shunned,
I've been reading through the members stories...slowly. It helps me to know who is writing me and who is reading my posts.
In your story where you said:
I think that by letting Twiggy become more real within me, and letting go the "disguise" part of me... I'll lose the n-mom crap in my head and the smoking will also stop - as if by "magic
There has been a struggle since I was 16, on and off, with smoking. Once I was able to stop for 5 years. What you wrote above is so perfect...I'm sure you have long ago found out that you did not have the willpower, or brain/thought power to overcome the addicition. Me too! I figured that I was going to do a lot of emotional housecleaning and loving of my inner child/teenager before I would let go..."magically."
What is so refreshing for me is to read your story and to know that I am not alone. It will take awhile but I get caught up with your story and post and others.
Peace and thank you for your encouragement!
Lise
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Dear Changing ,Lise and Amber,
I want to thank you for all that you have written.It is an exercise in courage.Lise,I see in your sharing of your story the beautiful miracle of 'healing'.It is so precious that we all have each other. I, for one, was so lonely for one person who could understand my M let alone a whole "roomful."
Lise,I am so happy to see your healing as it unfolds in this thread. As Changing said, we hold on to our memories with the glue of shame. When we let them out, healing flloods in --in a miraculous way.
It is funny ,but I thought that my "detaching" was a symptom of "mental illness' when all the time it WAS a sign that I was growing. When I shared that(so gingerly),I had a HUGE healing. All this time, I thought that there was s/thing wrong with me that I could get in to that "detached 'space.
THAT was a huge lesson for me to "force" myself to share.
When Izzy said that she felt bad her whole life for "snooping" ,that is another example of us thinking that a 'natural" thing is abnormal.
Lord, help me to just accept my feelings as they are. Thank you for a wonderful thread ,Lise Love to you Ami
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Hi Amber,
What a blessing to find someone else who struggles with this too. I'd often hear of others who "just quit." And there is me...cigarettes are my friend - but slowly, I am letting go. I feel it.
((((Amber))))
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When Izzy said that she felt bad her whole life for "snooping" ,that is another example of us thinking that a 'natural" thing is abnormal.
Lord, help me to just accept my feelings as they are. Thank you for a wonderful thread ,Lise Love to you Ami
Thank you Ami (you wonderful person you!)-
It is amazing to me that I have spent a life-time second guessing myself because my mom told me this and that about me and how I should feel, think and act. She wanted to be nice to everyone, to make friends, to be liked by all.. "don't make waves." (Of course she couldn't take her own advice).
Lise
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SO many N lies-------------- Ami
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Smoker friends...
Hope you won't forget the real and powerful physical side to nicotine addiction.
There are many aids.
For me, the combo of hypnosis (2 sessions) + a nicotine replacement
set me FREE.
((((((((()))))))))
Hops (still chewing the gum 18 years later, but made that choice as a tradeoff I'm grateful for!)
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I do understand, Amber...It's a lot of concentrating. I know you'll rebalance.
Should mention that I used hypnosis twice.
The first time, totally effective -- I did not commence NRT. And it worked great. It was six months later than I relapsed (self-sabotage was all it was). Six months of comfortable life w/o cigs.
So hypnosis can work even w/o NRT, is my only point. Worth a shot if one is stuck, maybe?
xo
HOps
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Hops, I can't do any NRT because of my high bp. So for me, it's cold turkey, cutting down, re-programming my brain - and CBT techniques work.
Replacing a cigarette with a self-soothing activity: closing my eyes for 2 minutes, short stroll outside. Realizing I smoke when I'm really hungry: replace that cigarette with a snack.
Realizing I can drive to work without smoking - and it doesn't bother me in the least.
Realizing that my intention is to stop WANTING the cigarette makes it do-able. And being able to feel myself as a non-smoker... it reaffirms my intention.
Rewarding myself for meeting my goal/intention.
Sharing the struggle with my H helps too.
Amber,
This above is all really good stuff for me to hear, thanks for sharing it.
Knitting has helped me. It is something I have to do with my hands (I can't smoke and knit at the same time) I'm not good enough to watch TV and knit at the same time because I have to focus on what I am doing. Knitting it is perfect for me when I need to just sit with some old pain.
Now wonder the mental health hospitals use crafts such as knitting to help patients :P
Lise
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I feel such heartache for you Lise. I coming here late, I know, but I just have to put in a few cents. How did you come out so gentle and loving? You won, over a truly crappy parent who didn't seem to want you to win. How? I hear people's stories and I wonder why I'm here because I don't have much if any of this kind of deliberate cruelty from my parents. Of course there was some, but that's just human. My parents were very emotionally confused people who were not fit to raise children at the time they did but most of the stupid things they did they just didn't know any better, they were just following the lousy role models of their own parents. My father was a quietly raging N who stifled me always, but his own father was a horror by all accounts. But both of my parents loved me, without a doubt. I've never doubted that. They did not deliberately do cruel things to me, not to my recollection. I want to cry when I hear about these things. And yet you made it, hardly unscarred, but you made it. So many people don't. There are so many people in jail, on the streets, in mental hospitals, in half-way houses who will never be very whole. My theory is that despite everything you got enough real love. The people that fail just didn't get enough.
Bill
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wow Bill - thank you for your post.
Your pain should not be minimized because others have it worse or had harsher experiences. We are all so different. Unfortunately I don't think I am always very gentle and loving; my repressed anger has made me overly critical, judgmental and harsh, at times. It has only been recently that I have been able to soften a bit because I have been working through the anger and hurt.
There are spiritual advantages to a painful childhood (that is actually the title of a book). I can see my own varied N trait's have worked to assert my growth and healing...I can seek praise from therapists...deep inside I still harbor a secret wish to undo the wrong done to me by overcoming in a grandiose way :D I'll get over that one soon I hope!
I was told once that if I wanted to undo the hardwiring of a self-centered mind to spend time doing things for others and with others without any gratification or reward for self -- to really make sacrafices of my time. Of course there is a reward, that I would be able to reprogram my mind to start thinking about others more than myself..it works (it is the 12 step principle in AA) Self-less service grows our hearts and unhardwires our brains from self-centered thinking. And lord knows I need lots of it. The funny thing is that I need people to help me get out of myself and I need people to be of service to - charity is fertilizer for the soul that wants to grow in love.
One of the gifts you bring to the board is insight and a quiet strength. You said:
"I want to cry when I hear about these things." That is your compassion. I would reckon to say that all that you see in me that is good is just a reflection of yourself :D
((((((BILL)))))))
Lise
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Wow, back to you, Lise. I disagree with your last statement--you have a lot of good that is completely your own, I know. I also think I experience the same kind of anger you have-- ''impure'' visions of revenge is how I think of these thoughts. I don't act on them though and I'm sure you don't either. I very much agree with what I think you're saying--we are ALL Ns to one degree or another, because we all WERE Ns once as very small children. We had to be socialized out of being so extraordinarily self-centered and some of us have had more success in that than others. Some completely flunked. That's why we're here.
Bill
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You said "that some completely flunked." So true, I always wonder why?
I worry about my mom -- despite all that she did to me she still is human and still gave me some foundation that was good or I would not have made it this far. If she was ever to see her life and all the harm she did it would devastate her. I imagine a lot of N's who don't know who they are would be devastated when they see the condition of their soul and the harm they did to others. I just hope they know that if they were able to say they were sorry with complete sincerity and a willingness to make amends, God would forgive them and so would people like you and I - correct?
If Randy came to you (miracle) and said he was genuinely sorry, that he "woke up" and sees now what dirt bag he was and how much he hurt you, you would forgive, correct?
Yes, I too, for the first time in my life have had vengeful thoughts. I get rid of them fast and then pray for the person that I wanted to take out :D
I think - wow that is a lot of rage and I have been carrying it around for all these years. No wonder I have been depressed or turned to smoking to cope. I feel like a pressure cooker that is finally letting out some steam - it feels good.
Lise
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Lise, IMO, all NPDs seem to have a major blind spot about how they effect other people. That of course is exactly why they are what they are and don't see any reason to change anything for a moral reason (i.e. hurting others) They are just not 'aware' of themselves in a normal, adult way. I think with intervention they can be taught how to behave in ways that weren't so destructive to other people,(my father I think is an example of that) but they would never FEEL the rightness of behaving better. Intellectual understanding, easy, feeling--just not there. I forgave Randy many times for most of the ten years I (foolishly) considered him a good friend and he only got worse and worse and less forgivable until I had to say ENOUGH! I honestly don't think he's CAPABLE of feeling the wrongness of his behavior, so he is really not able to say he's sorry with any truth. He said he was sorry every time he did something supremely self-centered and inconsiderate and I called him on it, but he never meant it. He was lying. He didn't FEEL bad at all, he really didn't. He manipulated me out of my anger because it got him off the hook until next time. Each time I thought he was sincere and each time he was lying. Intellectually though he knew right from wrong the way most people see it, otherwise he couldn't have projected his own evil onto me.
I smoked heavily for 25 years Lise, quit 12 years ago this month. It took about two years of being pretty discombobulated to get back to "normal." I once thought it was the worst two years of my life until the LAST two years! :) It was harder to get over an N than my smoking addiction. But I think being involved with Ns is just another type of addiction, but a lot less easy to see than smoking. My uncle taught me how to quit--DECIDE. I spent at least five years postponing the decision before I made it. When I did finally decide there was no backsliding or temptation to begin again because it was no longer an option once I had decided. I quit just once. It was not a matter of will power because I have none. Anyway, I think everyone quits in their own way. If you are smoking heavily you will feel so much better!! It's a huge gift. Your energy level doubles I think.
Bill
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They are just not 'aware' of themselves in a normal, adult way. I think with intervention they can be taught how to behave in ways that weren't so destructive to other people,(my father I think is an example of that) but they would never FEEL the rightness of behaving better.
Bingo, Bill.
Hops
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[ALL Ns to one degree or another, because we all WERE Ns once as very small children. We had to be socialized out of being so extraordinarily self-centered and some of us have had more success in that than others. Some completely flunked. That's why we're here.
Dear Bill and Lise,
This quote(above) IS the answer to my question about my own thinking.I have "rejected" all parts of me that are "N like". THAT is how I lost connection to my emotions.I was so shamed for any "not perfect"(or N ) emotion such as selfishness, anger, fear and even joy.
I guess that I was the living body that my N mother projected all of her own N emotions on. When she saw them in me, she saw "red". Then, she excoriated me for having them--bleh
So, my goal is to see it just as Bill said,"We all have an N part to us." One book says that LV NEED more N.
N in appropriate doses is good----right?Don't we need to stand up with a confidence and be able "proclaim" ourselves (as part of our voice)?
Don't we need a part of us that loves ourselves and stands firm in that love,even when outside circumstances tear us down. Isn't this "normal" N?(if you could call it that)
My book says that you need some N in order to be whole.
When I was "healthy",I think that I loved myself in a healthy way. I think that I had N traits,but it is like homeostasis in the body.You can't have too much of one thing or it throws off another and can even kill you.
Anyway,I love your post,Bill. It has a simple wisdom of self acceptance--which I need very much right now Love to you, dear friend Ami
((((((((((((Bill, Lise)))))))))))
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I think that I just "got " the answer to my question(in the heart). It is ,"If I am not for myself who am I?(appropriate amounts of "N". If I am only for myself what am I (not enough being able to suspend yourself and care for others) Ami
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Dear Lise,
I hope that you don't mind if I add a/thing about an N H. It is still the topic of N's-bleh. . I am really "sick" today with what transpired last night.
I did have a seed in my H being angry.My S did ,too. My h was stressed in ,general. So, all these things came together in a conflagration.
I really thought that my H could hurt s/one so I was "placating him. My FIRST thought was to placate a raging bull.My thought was that THIS was not the time to assert myself. My S was angry that I was being "weak". I tried to tell my S that physical safety must come first--not emotional considerations. My S has gotten really smart ,lately. He said that he did not want to lose his dignity and that he would not placate. I asked him(strongly) to just be quiet b/c I was more concerned with physical safely.
Anyway, the night ended. My S and I were trying to figure out what to do next time( and there will be a next time)
My S said that we should not placate b/c it will make us sick. My S said that his dignity( and mine) was worth s/thing. So, we made a plan about what to do next. I will have the cell phone and we will not placate. We will not inflame ,but we will not placate. Then, if( and probably when) my H hits s/one or s/thing, we call the police and get a restraining order.
I feel very,very upset and sick to my stomach. I know that I 'provoked"(horrible word in abuse circles) him by not helping him with what he needed.My S did not help with s/thing either. Also, my H "knows" that my S and I don't like him down deep. He really does not get it that providing is great,but it does not remove the need for general human consideration.
The other thing that was upsetting was that my H was blaming ME for turning my S against him when it was HIM that tried to do this . It was surreal,in a sense.
This is just a situation that is coming to a head and it is good. I want to erase this post ( and maybe will later) b/c I feel like such an idiot for being in this situation. Ami
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(((((((Ami))))))) you are not an idiot and there is nothing shameful about you being in this situation. I completely understand about personal failures 'provoking' abuse and 'deserving' it. That's been my situation with my dad all my life. He was always justified - it was always my fault (usually a nothing type of thing too) and I should be ashamed blah blah blah I am a terrible person blah blah the stink of my infamy fills the streets of the neighborhood blah blah the tremendous burden for the poor N having to live with the horror that is me blah blah I can never do enough to make it up to them, cannot even begin to make it up will be paying forever and ever. kwim?
I think it is so good that you and your S can work together on this. I think the compromise of physical safety, a plan of action and respecting your own dignity - sounds like good progress to me. It sounds proactive, not reactive. It sounds like something new, not an endless repeat of the same old cycle. And I think those are good things.
Maybe this story will make you chuckle and maybe feel a bitfeel better. I worked for an N once. He was trying to steal his colleague's client again and again. It didn't work. So then he started to accuse her of trying to steal her own client when she moved to another company. What a terrible woman to steal a client, a client who made up its own mind freely. But to the N, the client was stolen (from him). Everybody in the office laughed because he was such a damned liar and because he failed to steal the client (yay) and he failed to sabotage the lady (yay) and because she walked away with a multi-million dollar client and there was not a damned thing he could do to touch her (yay). And then one of the parking lot attendants totaled the Ns mercedes convertible. God, those were some good times (though perhaps not for the attendant).
Point of the story is that accusing someone else of doing the very thing he was trying to do is BS that 3rd parties see through. Don't let it confuse you - you aren't trying to manipulate anyone.
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Ami, I completely agree that LVs need to be MORE narcissistic (more self-admiring, more self-loving, more self-praising, more self-seeking, more self-concerned, more looking after self, they need more SELF). Being selfish is totally necessary to survival and health. My LV M believed all selfishness was 'evil.' (taught that by N parents). I believed her, but she was so wrong. It is completely necessary to existence and could summarized as 'being responsible for yourself.'
Malignant narcissism OTOH, which is what we are always talking about, is seeing other people in your world as mere objects, put there solely for your own gratification and then using and treating them that way. (This is from Ayn Rand, although she didn't call it malignant narcissism). An N parent or SO of course hates any selfishness except their own. You're not supposed to be 'separate' from their needs, to have a will and existence of your own! That's the evil forTHEM so they try to squash your independence by telling you any selfishness on your part is evil and hurtful and when they succeed (as a parent) they have made a LV. They ALWAYS succeed to some degree because a child is so vulnerable to being manipulated by love.
I think all of us are capable of being malignant Ns, of viewing other people in our world as objects to be used when the stakes are high enough, and I think we all do it sometimes. We are just human. But we know it's wrong and we feel badly. We don't BELIEVE that other people exist just to serve our needs. NPDs seem to believe this. Anyway, this is how I'm beginning to see it.
Bill
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My God, Bill, that is SO BIG.I am getting it in the heart.I see my own"core" being strengthened and my own "selfishness" being O.K.( and more than O.K.-- necessary). You expressed it so beautifully.I have been "birthing" this idea ,but you brought it to fruition.
It is SO BIG to go from LV to strong voice.It changes your insides and shifts them in another direction.It is as big as going from North to South.
Inside me,I feel that I CAN own those" N "parts of myself that I thought were so "shameful". I am seeing them(more) as human.
I feel like I have gotten a gift and it is so HUGE--- just spectacular. My own voice is a beautiful voice and it has all elements --even the bad. Thank you ,friend, from the bottom of my heart for all that you contribute to everyone. Love Ami
((((((((((((Bill))))))))))))))
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It was not a matter of will power because I have none. Anyway, I think everyone quits in their own way. If you are smoking heavily you will feel so much better!! It's a huge gift. Your energy level doubles I think.
This is all so true about smoking - like you said "everyone quits in their own way." We are all so different.
Well thanks for clarifying more about Randy and your Father for me. From all that I have read from your posts about Randy, I gather that you gave yourself to him as a genuine friend. You were invested. Betrayal is the worst.
I still have hurt angry feeling coming up and up, but they are getting less and less. At first it was so hard but lately I can manage through the pain without feeling so incapacitated and needing to smoke. So much garbage has moved out of me it is like getting a new pair of glasses to see with and a new heart to care with.
My desire to smoke is gettng less and less instead I want to knit, watch movies or go for walks on the beach -- It is all progress.
Lise
Lise
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So, my goal is to see it just as Bill said,"We all have an N part to us." One book says that LV NEED more N.
N in appropriate doses is good----right?Don't we need to stand up with a confidence and be able "proclaim" ourselves (as part of our voice)?
Don't we need a part of us that loves ourselves and stands firm in that love,even when outside circumstances tear us down. Isn't this "normal" N?(if you could call it that)
My book says that you need some N in order to be whole.
When I was "healthy",I think that I loved myself in a healthy way. I think that I had N traits,but it is like homeostasis in the body.You can't have too much of one thing or it throws off another and can even kill you.
Wow...this is a powerful post Ami and Bill. It brought up something that has helped me to now be so hard on myself. My N saint T used to make me feel ashamed for needing affirmation, she used to look at me with silence and fear on her face when I would ask her for validation or if I was OK. She once said that I have some gifts that she could see but that she did not want to point them out because "I would let them go to my head".
I intuitively knew that I was not seeking praise to feed off an ego stroke from her. I was feeling and getting more and more in touch with how lacking in affirmative love I was.
Here is a book I just found:
It is called: Healing the Unaffirmed - Recognizing Emotional Deprivation
http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Unaffirmed-Recognizing-Emotional-Deprivation/dp/0818909188/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195678941&sr=8-1
Ami and Bill,
I hope this is what you are talking about when you refer to LV's needing N stuff?
Lise
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Dear Lise,
I hope that you don't mind if I add a/thing about an N H. It is still the topic of N's-bleh.
Of course! I'd love to share my post with you!!! ANYTIME. You have a wonderful way of keeping the topics rolling.
Love, you (((((AMI)))))
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I did have a seed in my H being angry.
Ami,
It sounds to me that you are being hard on yourself for being human, making a mistake and being married to an NH? You have been through a lot lately - so you had part, you admitted it, you faced yourself - now you are going to grow.
Perhaps old mom tapes came back saying that you have to be perfect?
I could be all off on this stuff and I know that I am jumping in late --By now you could be way past this.
Lise
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My God, Bill, that is SO BIG.I am getting it in the heart.I see my own"core" being strengthened and my own "selfishness" being O.K.( and more than O.K.-- necessary). You expressed it so beautifully.I have been "birthing" this idea ,but you brought it to fruition.
It is SO BIG to go from LV to strong voice.It changes your insides and shifts them in another direction.It is as big as going from North to South.
Inside me,I feel that I CAN own those" N "parts of myself that I thought were so "shameful". I am seeing them(more) as human.
I feel like I have gotten a gift and it is so HUGE--- just spectacular. My own voice is a beautiful voice and it has all elements --even the bad. Thank you ,friend, from the bottom of my heart for all that you contribute to everyone. Love Ami
((((((((((((Bill))))))))))))))
OK now I see...you got it!!!
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I'm quiet these days.
Ever since I wrote this post and got some support, perspective and tears, I have felt better as if something has purged out of me. I am more at peace, hopeful and enjoying the simplicity of prayer, looking forward to the holidays and just being at peace with myself.
There is still so much more healing to embrace but I can tell that God is giving me a little rest before a nother wave of memoreis and pain surfaces.
There is still anger and frustration going on with me. I get annoyed when my boss asks me to do something for my job...That is pretty N of me :lol:
I know that I am a 3 years on some levels emotionally and I have been for a very long time; the difference is I don't act on the 3 year old emotions and thought processes that go on in me. For instance, I just noticed today that when my bosses are really preoccupied working with their door are shuts and or they are in a bad mood my LV 3 year old thinks it is her fault - of course, she thinks the world revolves around her as well as in my family growing up we had to be on constant guard for when mom might just get flippy, we were always looking for signs of moms unhappiness to indicate the upcoming storms and try to be prepared.
I realized today that has I heal these painful emotions and work through stuff that one day I will might be unattached and unaffected by the emotions and moods of others - oh how freeing that would be!! I'm almost there.
I am feeling a strong pull for solitude...I think some more stuff is going to be coming up soon. I'm glad I have this board. One more blessing in my life and one more thing to be grateful for!
Happy Thanksgiving!!
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Dear Gabben-
I am so happy that you are making such good progress. You are inspiring and a lovely person and things will only get better- I hope you have a wonderful holiday, can spend it as you choose, and thank your for sharing your story.
Love and Peace,
Changing
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Dear Lise,
It hit me ,of course ,you would be afraid of any feelings. You had "normal" self protection and you ended up in Juvenile Hall and then a mental institution b/c of it.
Something has been stirring in me about this incident with my mom. I decided to revisit this post. As I was reading a few responses, I realized that if someone had done to me today what my mom did to me back then I would be outraged!! Well that is certainly how I feel and have felt but I am still not completely there with understanding or grasping the evil of my moms behavior. I realize as I write this that it is because I am terrified of her. Just like in Ami's post above...to feel deeply (which I have) is to fear terror at consequences of self expression.
Just today I hired a young girl to come and clean my house. She is only off meth for about 6 months. She lives in the worst part of the city. She has two kids who are both taken out of custody but she is trying her hardest to grow spiritually (I'm her sponsor) and to complete her SAGE programs, she is trying to clean up her life. So I told her if she wanted to earn extra money for Christmas she could clean my apartment. I pay a professional cleaners to clean once a month so I figured I'd give the money to her and let her have a try at house cleaning. Well, at 4:30 p.m. today she calls me and tells me, nonchalantly, that she is not going to make it my house to clean. The thing is that I do not care so much about the cleaning, I care about her and helping her to develop a work ethic, I'm also annoyed by her selfishness. I got angry with her and gave her a lecture about putting the needs of others ahead of our own and thinking about herself and not considering my needs when we had an agreement and I expected a professional attitude. I could tell she was not happy with me. It pushed my terror buttons. However, I refrained from backing down. I told her "welcome to the work force, it is not easy to earn a living." She has not held an honest job in over 6 years, she is 28. I also told her that if I was another person besides her sponsor that she would have been fired.
My feelings, especially my anger, can terrify me sometimes.
To Leah:
Now that I have read YOUR story I know how much you can understand, like you had said.
(BTW: I have been reading People of the Lie).
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Dear Lise,
I want to tell you with all my posts about "Jumping from the rails',I feel better. I feel more centered . I can accept my emotions a little better ,now.
It does work to keep facing and expressing the pain. Love Ami
(((((((((Lise)))))))))
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Thanks Ami,
When I feel like "jumping from the rails" then I will headline a post like that and reach out for support.
Lise